This thread might be of interest to those who reside in CA and/or are pulled over for a modified exhaust system. The car in question is a non-Fiero, but the information might be of use for Fieros using a custom exhaust or engine swap. I'm listing some of the various steps that were taken during my visit to a local smog referee station here in CA, but before I continue this picture is very important.


Notice my (freeway) speed is about 70-mph @ 3,000- rpms in the final gear (5th).



My next pic is going 80-mph @ 3,500- rmps (once again in the final gear (5th). Yeah, I know.. I was speeding hehe.


The question is: what speed do you think CA referee are using to test the decibel levels (db) at?


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"I drive modified Fieros- anything less would be uncivilized."

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-02-2009).]

4000 rpms? Just a guess.

I arrived a bit late (10-minutes... darn morning traffic). The guys were cool and he let me slip on in since he didn't have his next appointment until 10-am.

(sorry about the grainy pics... camera phone)



Backing the car into position; the car must be outside the bay port and out in the open parking lot.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-02-2009).]

How far away from the car are they supposed to take the readings from? Is the limit still 89 dbs?

quote Originally posted by avengador1: How far away from the car are they supposed to take the readings from? Is the limit still 89 dbs?

I didn't get a chance to take of picture of system, but from what I recall... the testing is at a 45 degree angle, 2-3 ft away, and positioned 1 ft above the ground. The max db levels are 95db. As you can see from the reading... this was outside @ 82.5 db during in park with engine on (maybe 900- 950- rmps?)



So, the question is; if the engine is @ idol and it's reading 82.5 db what would it take to exceed the legal limit of 95 db? I'll give you a clue, it don't take much and even a Cicada (Oklahoma insect) wouldn't pass CA loudness test.

"The deafening call of the cicada is made only by the male and is used to attract females. The sound is created by rapid beating of wings against the cicada’s abdomen. Along the abdomen are organs called tympana, which act as drums and magnify the sound considerably. In fact, cicadas’ vocalizations have been recorded as loud as 108 decibels (dB)."

side note( I saw this on the game show, Jepordy last week and it mentioned that a Cicada can reach decibels of 100).

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-02-2009).]

"The deafening call of the cicada"
Oh, I gotta use that somewhere.
"While my guitar gently weeped, my ears were being attacked by the deafening call of the cicada."


So bottom line, bro:
Busted or not busted?
Duh.
Will the manufacturer who sold the system as 50 state legal defend or reimburse you?

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 09-02-2009).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: So bottom line, bro: Busted or not busted? Duh. Will the manufacturer who sold the system as 50 state legal defend or reimburse you?

I still have the original invoice, but 10 years later--- I doubt Greedy will honor it saying, its too old or something. I do have over 233,000 miles on the car.

You are a bit over there. Your car is very loud.

Weakest sound heard 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library 30dB
Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB
Telephone dial tone 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB
Subway train at 200' 95dB
Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB
Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB
Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB
Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast 140dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB


Let me guess, you are running with gutted pre-cats, gutted cat and a straight pipe?

If you have a NA DSM, then maybe it is time to upgrad to a GSX since the turbo quiets the exhaust.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: @ 4,500-rpms. That's equal to 100 mph..... freaking amazing!

Umm i don't want my engine going that high for any reason, what are they trying to do blow up older engines and reduce life span on newer ones?

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: You are a bit over there. Your car is very loud. Let me guess, you are running with gutted pre-cats, gutted cat and a straight pipe? If you have a NA DSM, then maybe it is time to upgrad to a GSX since the turbo quiets the exhaust.

Actually, it's a GS-X with factory turbo and factory cat--- only from the cat back is/was Greedy exhaust. At the time Greedy had the quietest exhaust on the market, but since the car is 10-years old... no need to buy a expensive after market exhaust.

If it wasn't for a dumb jackass trying to peal off the logo..

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-02-2009).]

If that is the case, you may want to take a look at your cat. I'll bet all the honeycomb is burned out.

I know there are some DSMs here locally that run with no muffler and you can hardly tell. They are more quiet at WOT than most factory V8s.

I know my truck is not in compliance with that law. There is no muffler on it at all. But it is not very loud so I never get pulled over.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Umm i don't want my engine going that high for any reason, what are they trying to do blow up older engines and reduce life span on newer ones?

I'm still wondering the same thing. According to what was told to me; they base the 4,500 rpms to the engine. Therefore 75% of the max rev of 7000. Keep in mind in order for my car to reach 4500 rpms I need to be going 100 mph. Thus the test is basing everything beyond normal driving ranges (5-70 mph). At best a person would reach 3,000 revs during shift points, but who revs up to 4500 and then drops the clutch? No me.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-02-2009).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: I'm still wondering the same thing. According to what was told to me; they base the 4,500 rpms to the engine. Therefore 75% of the max rev of 7000. Keep in mind in order for my car to reach 4500 rpms I need to be going 100 mph. Thus the test is basing everything beyond normal driving ranges (5-70 mph). At best a person would reach 3,000 revs during shift points, but who revs up to 4500 and then drops the clutch? No me.

4500 rpm, that is nuts!

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: If that is the case, you may want to take a look at your cat. I'll bet all the honeycomb is burned out.

That might be the case since it's been 2-months since I had a smog check (oh yeah it passed with flying colors), but it is the cat.... I'll make sure to buy the OEM one. As for visuals... it looks okay.




Either way, the factory parts are going on today (hopefully).




The darn sensor is holding up the show. I shot it with some DB plaster.




I had to drop by Auto Zone a borrow a sensor wrench. Looks like a OBGYN instrument, hehehe.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-02-2009).]

Is this car manual or automatic? If it's a manual, are you saying you never hit 4500 RPM?

The freeway isn't where loud exhausts annoy people.

CA has adopted SAE J1169, in which the meter (approved) is placed 20" from the exhaust tip at a 45 degree angle, and the engine is revved to 3/4 of it's top rated speed (5250RPM for your engine, according to the tach in the first pic). The reading must be 95dB or below.

Good luck to you. It could have been much worse. I have heard of cops writing illegal exhaust tickets and making people go to the BAR for inspections on completely stock Evos and SRT-4s.

I have a Magneflow muffler on my 3S. It keeps things quiet enough to be legal but gives a very unique but nice sound.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: CA has adopted SAE J1169, in which the meter (approved) is placed 20" from the exhaust tip at a 45 degree angle, and the engine is revved to 3/4 of it's top rated speed (5250RPM for your engine, according to the tach in the first pic). The reading must be 95dB or below.

According to the rep, the stock 2.0 engine it's 4,500 rpms.

Either way, I never tap out at 4500 or 5250 rpms, especially, when since my car is due for a timing belt. That's when crap happens when you get into it. Come to think if it--- it would've been nice if the timing belt broke during the inspections.


Upon visuals, I just notice that the guts are coming out... must be that darn salty air.

That is odd. I though stillen exhausts were all stainless steel.

It must be the salt in the air like you said then. Think you could get a Stillen dealer to warrenty it for you?

quote Originally posted by TK: Is this car manual or automatic? If it's a manual, are you saying you never hit 4500 RPM? The freeway isn't where loud exhausts annoy people.

It's a 5-speed manual with a short shifter and dual friction clutch... nothing else.



I've hit 4500, but that was once back in 1999 (speed was 136 or mph). Some guy in a Camero wanted to race up Avin hill.... yeah, and he lost; badly. i guess he didn't have enough hp going up hill. That said, I never tapped the car out or rev limiter. I think it kicks-in around 145 or something... I'm not sure. Since that time I've only reached maybe 90 or so.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-02-2009).]

I wouldn't hurt to ask. Their HQ is in Costa Mesa so even if there are no dealers locally, you could drive down there and get a new exhaust over a weekend.

http://www.stillen.com/page.asp?contactus

quote Originally posted by madcurl: ... I've hit 4500, but that was once back in 1999 (speed was 136 or mph). Some guy in a Camero wanted to race up Avin hill.... yeah, and he lost; badly. i guess he didn't have enough hp going up hill. That said, I never tapped the car out or rev limiter. I think it kicks-in around 145 or something... I'm not sure. Since that time I've only reached maybe 90 or so.

You've never hit 4500 in first gear? I did that regularly even in my '85 2M4, never mind the Formula.

I probably do it more than occasionally in my wife's loser cruiser.

Just because you don't travel at that RPM, doesn't mean that you're *never* there.

You could drive the entire life of a stock GS-T/GS-X under 3k rpms if you wanted to. They do have decent low end torque for a 4 cylinder.

Now the car owners that swap out the turbo for a huge monster will not build power until 3500-4500 rpms. But they know what they are doing.

Maybe. I only know GM (one Ford). Almost all GM engines are torque and not HP. You could hang below 3K in the Formula, too, but what fun is that? I had the FS oversized cat, straight pipes and Hooker resonator tips back when she was on the road. Loud when the system was cold, but settled into a nice burble when it warmed up.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: You've never hit 4500 in first gear? I did that regularly even in my '85 2M4, never mind the Formula. I probably do it more than occasionally in my wife's loser cruiser. Just because you don't travel at that RPM, doesn't mean that you're *never* there.

Hehehe, nah maybe 3,000 in 1st gear. I most definitely won't with 233,000 miles on the engine. Besides, I'm trying to keep my work car and not having to buy another one. If it blows up I'll have to pay 25k for a new car.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Hehehe, nah maybe 3,000 in 1st gear. I most definitely won't with 233,000 miles on the engine. Besides, I'm trying to keep my work car and not having to buy another one. If it blows up I'll have to pay 25k for a new car.

hmmm I guess I wouldnt either with that mileage, but with alot less, I would hit 7krpms in the first 3 gears atleast a few times since its your work car I can understand.... I drive my cars hard.

I missed your original thread.

I remember a few years ago when they were really cracking down on imports here in Sac, they pulled over one of the local DSM club members right in front of the car meet. He had a purple 96 Eclipse GS-T with a body kit. It didn't help that it was a DWB too. He sat there for half an hour while being grilled. They couldn't get him on anything for illegal modifications because everything was stock. They searched his entire engine bay and even checked under the car with flashlights and mirrors. Eventually they wrote him a ticket for having a tailight bulb burned out.

I get so sick of the vehicle profiling. I know the areas where the police look for imports so I don't go there on Friday and Saturday nights in my 3S.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: I missed your original thread. I remember a few years ago when they were really cracking down on imports here in Sac, they pulled over one of the local DSM club members right in front of the car meet. He had a purple 96 Eclipse GS-T with a body kit. It didn't help that it was a DWB too. He sat there for half an hour while being grilled. They couldn't get him on anything for illegal modifications because everything was stock. They searched his entire engine bay and even checked under the car with flashlights and mirrors. Eventually they wrote him a ticket for having a tailight bulb burned out. I get so sick of the vehicle profiling. I know the areas where the police look for imports so I don't go there on Friday and Saturday nights in my 3S.

Yeah, it was deep inside the Ducatti thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/067720.html

As for DWB, it's complicated because (as you mentioned) it's a import or ricer, but with a 50 year old black dude driving it. I only experience it when I'm driving in the Bay Area, especially in San Mateo, CA. Usually, it's a bogus stop to see if I'm driving "dirty" or something. In this situation, the officer observed my car during signal light, so at best the db readings where 82.5 (according my last readings @ smog rep station) so either the officer has the ears of "Volcan" to determine the difference between 82.5 and 95 db. Oh yeah, on the ticket it indicates that I was going 25 mph (most likely shifting from 1st, 2nd, and maybe 3rd gear) in a 35 mph road.


I've driven my N* and never been pulled over, but they do follow and sometimes (if I'm stopped at a eatery) they'll asks about the car.

I arrived at the local smog rep station today. I was on time (this time), but the referee wasn't so we're even and everything went okay with no issues.



Referee armed with weapon in hand!
'

The legal distant (20" inches) at 45 degree angle and 1 feet above the ground.


The device used;

In park with engine running;


At 4500 rpm;




unknown exhaust, hehe.


Happy Camper;

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-09-2009).]

Update:

I called traffic court Sept 8th regarding the violation and I was informed that the ticket (at that time) hadn't been filed (you have 1-month to fix the problem or pay the fine), so he informed me to call back next week for it sometimes takes police department a few weeks to file. Besides, I should receive a Notice of Bail in the mail. Once received, I can appear in court to have the ticket removed (a $25 dollar fee). Well, today I called and it so happen it's the same person from my Sept 8th call. Conclusion; I have to ride around with the cleared ticket in my car at all times (for 1-year just in case I get pulled over) until the police files a complaint. It gets a bit complicated if I'm pulled over driving the choppers since I normally don't carry the work car's documents on me (in this case I may have too?).

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-18-2009).]

Again, I'm soo glad I don't have to put up with the NAZI Kali b-s anymore!!!

In what seems like a lifetime ago, I worked in a muffler shop that was owned by a Napa police officer, That made for an interesting contradiction.

Even then the laws were over the top, there was a technicality, you could fight the ticket based on the fact that the cop used subjective means to determine that the exhaust was loud. (the cops didn't have sound meters and there were no refere stations then. Like I said a lifetime ago!)

The darkest hour,
never comes at night. Joe