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Osprey Circling Over White House? by blackrams
Started on: 05-13-2010 12:22 PM
Replies: 21
Last post by: rogergarrison on 05-14-2010 06:21 PM
blackrams
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Report this Post05-13-2010 12:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
Is Problem-Plagued Osprey Circling Over White House?

http://www.aolnews.com/nati...-house-lawn/19474261

AOL News WASHINGTON (May 12) -- It's just 11 miles as the crow flies between the White House and Andrews Air Force Base, but if an Osprey ever replaces the presidential helicopter, would it be worth charging taxpayers more than $10 million a mile to transport their commander in chief to his waiting jet?

That's a question Defense Secretary Robert Gates or his successor will have to weigh as the Pentagon restarts the process of replacing the aging fleet of 19 helicopters that are known as Marine One when the president is on board.

Last year, Gates canceled a nearly $13 billion contract for a new presidential helicopter, citing cost overruns and delays. The decision came less than two months after President Barack Obama joked about the gold-plated project: "The helicopter I have now seems perfectly adequate to me. Of course, I've never had a helicopter before -- maybe I've been deprived and I didn't know it."

While the president and his defense secretary are still on the lookout for big-ticket spending items to chop, the Navy recently reopened the process for finding a replacement for Marine One. Contractors have until June 17 to answer.

The initial request for information sent to potential contractors said the aircraft should have a "cabin design to provide a suitable executive ergonomic working environment that supports Presidential duties at all times, including first-response medical support, and passenger seating for 10-14." It also required that the aircraft be able to land safely if one engine failed, fit inside a C-17 cargo plane and operate in "a dense urban environment."

And Bell-Boeing, the consortium that produces the Osprey, says it's on board with that.

"Our Marine and Air Force customers are very happy with the V-22, and we believe it would be a strong candidate for the presidential helicopter," said Sean McCormack, Boeing's vice president of communications and a former State Department spokesman.

But critics say such confidence in the controversial hybrid tilt-rotor Osprey, which takes off like a helicopter and transitions to fly like a plane, isn't warranted by its track record. "I'm sure they think it's a serious bid, but the V-22 has had an unhappy history," said Winslow Wheeler, who heads a military reform project at the Center for Defense Information. "The issue is safety and reliability."

Wheeler was quoted in a tongue-in-cheek article in The Washington Post today making fun of the aircraft's impact on White House departure ceremonies, and told AOL News that it would send "clods of earth" flying from the South Lawn. "The press corps should be happy the White House backyard is no longer a cow pasture," he said.

'Dream Machine' -- or Nightmare?

The aircraft's long and checkered history is chronicled in a new book, "The Dream Machine: The Untold History of the Notorious V-22 Osprey," by veteran Pentagon correspondent Richard Whittle. In it, he tells the tale of a program that has cost $30 billion so far and survived groundings, rejection by the Army and an effort to kill it by none other than Dick Cheney, as secretary of defense. Thirty lives were lost during testing, and four other people died last month when an Air Force Osprey crashed in Afghanistan.

Still, speaking on "The Daily Show," Whittle said the aircraft that has been flown more than 70,000 hours by Marines in Afghanistan has been much improved in recent years. Bell-Boeing agrees.

"It's a much more mature platform," said Bob Carrese, executive director of business development for Bell-Boeing's V-22 program. He said the company stayed out of the last bidding competition, in 2005, because the aircraft wasn't ready. But after deploying Ospreys to Iraq and Afghanistan and operating them in combat for two years, he said, "it is appropriate to put this aircraft forth for this mission."

Mark Thompson, a Time magazine writer who won a Pulitzer Prize for reporting on fatal flaws in Army helicopters, is less positive. In his review of Whittle's book, he described the Osprey as so unreliable it's "barely fit for combat." And at $120 million, it's far more expensive than a conventional helicopter.

But there are other considerations. Like, can it even land on the White House lawn?

Marine Col. Greg Masiello, the Osprey program manager, was recently asked that question. His reply: "It fits, by the way."

Masiello didn't take a tape measure to the White House -- instead, Bell-Boeing hired a landscaping company in 2003 to scope out the South Lawn. "We know where every tree is and every bush is," boasted Carrese, a former Marine Corps helicopter pilot who flew Marine One for President Ronald Reagan. "We've done the study."

There may be enough room for the Osprey, but "it's not going to be easy to fit in," said aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia. "The main rotor diameter is significantly larger that the current machine. You'd have to make way for a much bigger footprint."

Then there is the downwash, which is much stronger on the Osprey than a helicopter, and the exhaust from the tilting nacelles, which has scorched the decks of Navy ships, so the impact on White House grass can't be discounted.

Once in the air, though, the president might prefer the Osprey, Whittle said. "It's a lot more pleasant. ... When it's in airplane mode, you don't have the shaking and vibration you have in helicopters," he said.

'Get-Out-of-Dodge Vehicle'

Carrese said that while the president's short hops to Andrews are Marine One's most visible mission, the Osprey can tackle longer-range flights with "a level of effectiveness and security that no helicopter can match." That's why, he said, that when presidential candidate Barack Obama and his entourage took a whirlwind tour of Iraq in 2008, they flew on Ospreys.

The Bell-Boeing executive said the Osprey's ability to fly 1,000 miles without refueling would allow President Obama to keep Air Force One parked more often. A day trip to New York, for instance, could be done nonstop from the White House to a heliport in Manhattan, saving money and disruptions in civilian air traffic.

But it's unclear whether such benefits will be enough to put the Osprey over the top, in this case.

Noting that the consortium has "done an awful lot to work out the [Osprey's] kinks," Aboulafia said it is "improbable but not impossible that it will get the contract." Beyond the technical issues, though, "the message it sends in these relatively frugal times" just won't fly when less costly alternatives are available, he said.

Even Whittle, who despite documenting the Osprey's decades-long problems has called it a "real-life transformer," doesn't think tilt-rotors should replace all the president's helicopters. While it can fly twice as fast as a helicopter when flying as an airplane, he suggests it might be overkill for running errands around town.

"For short hops, routine kind of things -- clearly a helicopter would make as much sense," he said. "In an emergency, in a crisis as a get-out-of-Dodge vehicle if you wanted to get the president out of the city fast, the Osprey is good for that."
*************************

Personally, I like the idea. Heck if the Osprey had been an option, I'd have stayed in the Army but it wasn't to be.
I also think President Obama should get some of the older less modifide Osprey for his personal site seeing tours.
Might be a little riskier but, save the modified one for our troops.

Ron
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Report this Post05-13-2010 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
would it be worth charging taxpayers more than $10 million a mile to transport their commander in chief to his waiting jet?

Would it? Could it? Never.
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Report this Post05-13-2010 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DjDragginSend a Private Message to DjDragginDirect Link to This Post
I hardly ever post in anything political but... won't he be out of office by the time anything like this sees light? so essentially he's just making the decision for the next president.. Right? How long do you think it takes to build a craft that is to presidential standards?
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Report this Post05-13-2010 01:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for htexans1Send a Private Message to htexans1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DjDraggin:

I hardly ever post in anything political but... won't he be out of office by the time anything like this sees light? so essentially he's just making the decision for the next president.. Right? How long do you think it takes to build a craft that is to presidential standards?


The Osprey is ready, now.

It can carry the President, now. But if you want the luxury and gold plated throne, that may take a while to fit in.
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Report this Post05-13-2010 02:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
Just give him one of the 2 UFO's we have out in area 51.
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Report this Post05-13-2010 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
Whats the payload capacity of the Osprey vs the Stalion ? Any presidential vehicle has to carry TONS of support equipment.

My sister works in Dallas for the company that does the electronics for specialized military aircraft like Wild Weasles and ECs. She said what they added to the 2 Air Force Ones, almost doubled its weight. She says just wiring was thousands of miles worth.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-13-2010).]

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Report this Post05-13-2010 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
I think, after the lambasting they gave the car companys over private jets, the President should drive over to where AF One is parked.
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Report this Post05-13-2010 07:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

I think, after the lambasting they gave the car companys over private jets, the President should drive over to where AF One is parked.


Well, that might give him less time to spend our money.
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blackrams
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Report this Post05-13-2010 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post

blackrams

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quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

would it be worth charging taxpayers more than $10 million a mile to transport their commander in chief to his waiting jet?

Would it? Could it? Never.


Obviously, I didn't communicate my intended sarcasm very well. No, he doesn't need an Osprey. Though I am a huge fan of the A/C, I'd rather see the troops have it's capability.
Our Commander and Chief was right when he said his helicopter was just fine.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-13-2010).]

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Report this Post05-13-2010 07:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NEPTUNESend a Private Message to NEPTUNEDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Well, that might give him less time to spend our money.


And more opportunities for crazy people to shoot the President of the United States.
(AKA Commander in Chief of the US armed forces)
As much as I despised Bush II, I NEVER wished him to be killed.
Unlike the way some conservatives and some Tea Baggers feel about thhe current President, apparently.

You guys need to get a grip on reality before the black helicopters land in your yard.

------------------

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 05-13-2010).]

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Report this Post05-13-2010 07:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NEPTUNESend a Private Message to NEPTUNEDirect Link to This Post

NEPTUNE

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quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Obviously, I didn't communicate my intended sarcasm very well. No, he doesn't need an Osprey. Though I am a huge fan of the A/C, I'd rather see the troops have it's capability.
Our Commander and Chief was right when he said his helicopter was just fine.

Ron



Thank you.
In my previous post I obviously hadn't read your clarification.
No,, I didn't read the sarcasm.

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Report this Post05-13-2010 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacDirect Link to This Post
How about an Mi-35 ??

Fits the mission profile, is easily modifiable to an executive interior....and is already proven.

Plus the Comrade will LOVE its heritage... !!!..
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Report this Post05-13-2010 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by User00013170:

Just give him one of the 2 UFO's we have out in area 51.


So that he can GO HOME for good...
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Report this Post05-13-2010 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for loafer87gtSend a Private Message to loafer87gtDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NEPTUNE:


And more opportunities for crazy people to shoot the President of the United States.
(AKA Commander in Chief of the US armed forces)
As much as I despised Bush II, I NEVER wished him to be killed.
Unlike the way some conservatives and some Tea Baggers feel about thhe current President, apparently.

You guys need to get a grip on reality before the black helicopters land in your yard.


Care to point out where in this thread anyone made any wish of harm to the president?

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Report this Post05-13-2010 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by loafer87gt:


Care to point out where in this thread anyone made any wish of harm to the president?


It was not posted, said, wished for or indicated in my opinion but, the accusation goes to perspective. Honestly, I guess if that's what you are expecting to see, you will see it. If you think the original poster was implying harm to the President because he is known to not agree with the President's social agenda, then you could expect to read a threat or hope of demise into the opening post.

That was not the intention of my original post but, I guess you could read it that way if you were so inclined. Two sides of a coin. I'm not upset but then I try to stay out of the fast lane.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-13-2010).]

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Report this Post05-14-2010 07:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROPHREKSend a Private Message to FIEROPHREKDirect Link to This Post
I was stationed with HMX when i was in the marine corp. The V-22 although a good grab and go bird just cant handle ALL of the missions required by hmx. Putting it on a C-17 for international lift missions would burn up alot of maintenance time . The vh-60n (what i wrenched on) was the main international lift aircraft. Easily setup to load on a C-17 or C-5 and easily returned to flying configuration. About 2 hours on each end. The Osprey has a large rotor span 83 feet 10 inches. The VH-3's span is 62 feet. 21-22 feet is huge and the tree's on the south lawn arent getting any smaller. i know its a tight fit already with the VH-3, gonna be worse with a V-22. The president takes airforce one (747) for a reason. Do you think he is the only person on it? the v-22 cannot carry the personell required to perform a presidential lift past the beltway. I think the S-92 would make a great replacement for the old VH-3's. It has a roomy cabin and a smaller rotor diameter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S92

http://www.helis.com/h/s92_4.jpg

. . and it loooks great in Marine one green and white ! But since there is already two sikorsky products lifting the prez i guess they felt guilty and awarded the contract to the UE101.

------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

12.3 is faster than a 13.2

[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 05-14-2010).]

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Report this Post05-14-2010 09:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Edaw 0Send a Private Message to Edaw 0Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

I think, after the lambasting they gave the car companys over private jets, the President should drive over to where AF One is parked.


Heh, I295 is not very... presidential.
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Report this Post05-14-2010 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NEPTUNESend a Private Message to NEPTUNEDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


It was not posted, said, wished for or indicated in my opinion [here]
Ron



You're right.
No, it wasn't.
in this thread
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Report this Post05-14-2010 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
No way I want him dead.....all the succeding ones that follow him are as bad or worse. We only have a few more years to put up with this crap from this stupid administration. I just hope something is left to govern when the time comes.
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Report this Post05-14-2010 05:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
I guess if you don't post in a thread that you don't want Obama killed, then by definition you DO.

So, no, I don't want Obama killed in a helicopter accident, either.


I didn't realize (because I didn't care), that for safety reasons they often fly 5 identical helicopters so that one can't know which one the president is in. Is that true?

That helps explain why there is a fleet. But why $400 million per helicopter?
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Report this Post05-14-2010 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NEPTUNE:


And more opportunities for crazy people to shoot the President of the United States.
(AKA Commander in Chief of the US armed forces)
As much as I despised Bush II, I NEVER wished him to be killed.
Unlike the way some conservatives and some Tea Baggers feel about thhe current President, apparently.

You guys need to get a grip on reality before the black helicopters land in your yard.



I believe you read conservatives incorrectly. When the left doesn't like a president, they trash him on all levels. When I disagree with elected leaders' policies, I fight against the policies and agenda, not the person. In a representative government, it makes no sense to beat up the messenger, just a waste of time.. It's better to educate and discuss better alternative policies, and then find people that will represent our policies, then work to get THEM elected and fight for the policies I believe in.

Obama seems like a nice guy, funny, and probably a good dad. I think he's fundamentally misguided on our country's strengths, Constitution, and the roles government is supposed to (not) play. I don't wish anybody harm... I DO hope that he fails to implement his vision for our country, because I don't believe his ideas are good ones.

Checks and balances only work when they still exist.
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Report this Post05-14-2010 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
Hes stupid on all levels. Hes very deserving of all the criticism. I can only come up with a few more stupid world leaders. Hitler and Napoleon are 2.
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