quote Originally posted by jstricker: Here's my problem with it. Say you're faced with the choice of causing your own death or allowing someone else to die. I discussed this with a priest one day and he said that if you directly cause your own death, you have committed suicide in the eyes of the church, whatever the reason. I personally have a hard time believing that a forgiving and loving God would condemn someone for making that choice. As for your comment on forgiveness, while your sins have probably hurt others, you may have done WRONG to others but you have not SINNED against them, you have sinned against God. You should ask for forgiveness for your ACTIONS against others, but you ask for forgiveness of your sins before God. Since you can't hide what's in your heart from God, asking for forgiveness from Him without a repentent and contrite heart is pretty much pointless. John Stricker

Its no secret anymore what my beliefs are John...But does it make me any less of a person? No.

Pertaining to your above statement about suicide: While I don't believe it is right myself, unless circumstances are so dire that one can only bring relief by committing suicide (not the right choice of words I want to use, but will do in a pinch)... It comes down to "responsibility to the responsible." One is responsible only for the actions of oneself. For example, say Boonie here decided one morning to wake up, walk out into the cold Alaska wilderness, bare ass naked, and try to pick a fight (and lose) with a rabid wolverine, all because he just didn't want to live anymore. Thats his perogative, not mine. He is responsible for his own actions, just as I am for mine.

As for your second statement: Doing "wrong" and sinning goes hand in hand IMHO. But what is wrong? Its all semantics, as I've said this before many times, but wrong and right, good and evil, ad infinitum. are all subject to personal interpretation. But I digress.

Forgiveness and apologizing are much less the same IMO. If I am going to apologize for a transgression I have perpetrated, I am damn well going to mean it. As before with the last thread, there is a catch 22 here. "God" is subject to personal interpretation. My personal interpretation is that I am my own "God". Why should I externalized my views on "God" when historically man has created his "Gods" in his own image? I believe that it is better to internalize and live like a god myself, rather than pray and hope etc. to something/someone that I cannot prove exists? Scientifically speaking, who's to say there is an afterlife? It can't be proved. Why should I believe in it? Naturally speaking, everything has its time. Science has proven on the other hand that the circle of life is birth/life/death, and in death the being in question feeds new life (decomposition being the biggest example).

That said, I'm sure there is more I have to say on the subject, but its 3:30 in the morning and I'm tired. Hence the reason my thoughts are out of order. I'll most likely edit this post later on...

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Here's my problem with it. Say you're faced with the choice of causing your own death or allowing someone else to die. I discussed this with a priest one day and he said that if you directly cause your own death, you have committed suicide in the eyes of the church, whatever the reason. I personally have a hard time believing that a forgiving and loving God would condemn someone for making that choice. As for your comment on forgiveness, while your sins have probably hurt others, you may have done WRONG to others but you have not SINNED against them, you have sinned against God. You should ask for forgiveness for your ACTIONS against others, but you ask for forgiveness of your sins before God. Since you can't hide what's in your heart from God, asking for forgiveness from Him without a repentent and contrite heart is pretty much pointless. John Stricker

John, I believe suicide is sin also. However, I do not believe the scenario you just decribed is suicide. I cannot comment on what the catholic church thinks. I am not catholic. John 15:13 says No greater love hath no man than this, than to give his own life for another. Suicide is the "taking" of your own life. The scenario you describe is the "giving" of ones own life.

Jim

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: John, I believe suicide is sin also. However, I do not believe the scenario you just decribed is suicide. I cannot comment on what the catholic church thinks. I am not catholic. John 15:13 says No greater love hath no man than this, than to give his own life for another. Suicide is the "taking" of your own life. The scenario you describe is the "giving" of ones own life. Jim

Jim beat me to it by two hours.

If a man throws himself on a grenade to protect his fellow soldiers. He has caused his own death to protect others. He is not, in the least, in sin.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: John, I believe suicide is sin also. . . .

Suicide is sin, but we should recognize that where we make distinctions in sin, God does not. Anything not in line with His righteousness is sin, and He counts it all the same.
The Bible says:
Romans 3: 10,11, 23 ( KJV ) ( parallel translations )
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

This says all of us are sinners. The apostle Paul said he was the chief of sinners because he had resisted God's message of salvation by persecuting the early Church.

1 Timothy 1: 12,13,14,15
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

But a path back to God and His righteousness is available to us. That path is Jesus Christ. Even someone like Paul could be saved by accepting God's free gift of salvation in Christ.
Romans 10:9,10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Christ will never again be crucified for our sins; He died once for us all.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now, if Christ was offered only once for all of mankind's sin, and there is no other offering for sin acceptable to God, that means the satisfaction for all sin has been made for all time. The forgiveness has been granted already. All of my sins, and jimbolaya's, and John Stricker's, and everyone who ever lived, have been forgiven in Christ. Since none of us were alive when Christ
died, His sacrifice was all future sin and for all past sin. There has been only one sacrifice for sin in history, and there will be no other. So a suicides's sin has been forgiven already.

In fact, to say there is a sin which cannot be forgiven is blasphemy, because that idea takes the position that there is a sin for which Christ did not die; this is manifestly impossible. The only sin which will keep someone out of heaven is the sin of unbelief, the sin of rejecting Christ's sacrifice as sufficient to satisfy God. Ultimately that translates to this idea: God is insufficient to be God. Since salvation through Christ is His plan, God cannot be insufficient.

Now, where does the humor enter into this? God not only lets inadequate human beings take this message into the world, He chooses inadequate folks to do it.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Here's my problem with it. Say you're faced with the choice of causing your own death or allowing someone else to die. I discussed this with a priest one day and he said that if you directly cause your own death, you have committed suicide in the eyes of the church, whatever the reason. I personally have a hard time believing that a forgiving and loving God would condemn someone for making that choice. .....

lol - really - isnt this close to the choice Christ made? to die for everyone else. isnt that suicide?
but - the christian chruch didnt exist yet - so - I suppose "after the fact" rules are OK

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Jim beat me to it by two hours. If a man throws himself on a grenade to protect his fellow soldiers. He has caused his own death to protect others. He is not, in the least, in sin.

I would think suicide is suicide, regardless of the motive. If one believes suicide is "wrong" then I think they have to be consistent. If one is going to make "exceptions" for the rule, then one has to be willing to make exceptions for ALL of the rules, and then it ALL becomes a matter of personal interpretation, and (according to many) the Bible doesn't allow for that, does it? Isn't it either literal or it's not?

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Forgiveness and apologizing are much less the same IMO. ...

I had refrained from commenting on this because it was straying from the thread topic of humor. So I apologize to boondawg, but I want to make a point here.


Forgiveness is important in a RELATIONSHIP. But PENALTIES still have to be paid.

For example, you may go to court for robbing someone. You may be SORRY you did it and have no intention of doing it again. You may apologize to the judge. You may apologize to the person you robbed. So no relationally you are fine with everyone.

Well, guess what? You still have to PAY the consequence for your crime, even though you are forgiven.


So regarding a sin such as suicide, you actually HAVE NO OPPORTUNITY for asking forgiveness after you commit suicide because, duh, you are dead.

So you can't be FORGIVEN for commiting suicide.

However, that doesn't mean you can't go to heaven. Because the Bible gives the method to have ALL sins PRE-PAID (and post-paid) for.

So just making sure people get the biblical point that forgiveness and payment of the penalty aren't the same thing.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I had refrained from commenting on this because it was straying from the thread topic of humor. So I apologize to boondawg, but I want to make a point here. Forgiveness is important in a RELATIONSHIP. But PENALTIES still have to be paid. For example, you may go to court for robbing someone. You may be SORRY you did it and have no intention of doing it again. You may apologize to the judge. You may apologize to the person you robbed. So no relationally you are fine with everyone. Well, guess what? You still have to PAY the consequence for your crime, even though you are forgiven. So regarding a sin such as suicide, you actually HAVE NO OPPORTUNITY for asking forgiveness after you commit suicide because, duh, you are dead. So you can't be FORGIVEN for commiting suicide. However, that doesn't mean you can't go to heaven. Because the Bible gives the method to have ALL sins PRE-PAID (and post-paid) for. So just making sure people get the biblical point that forgiveness and payment of the penalty aren't the same thing.

I don't disagree with you that even though you may ask for forgiveness by apologizing, that you must pay the consequences...But it seems you have some understanding of what I said about suicide and the Catholic church (you basically restated my original thought more in depth).

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol - really - isnt this close to the choice Christ made? to die for everyone else. isnt that suicide? but - the christian church didnt exist yet - so - I suppose "after the fact" rules are OK

Once again the key point is the giving or taking. Christ "gave" his life for us. He did not take his own life because he was fed up.

Jim

BTW: I fixed your intentional spelling error.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Once again the key point is the giving or taking. Christ "gave" his life for us. He did not take his own life because he was fed up. Jim BTW: I fixed your intentional spelling error.

well, like the throwing oneself on a grenade example above - he certainly created the situation for himself where he would knowingly die.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, like the throwing oneself on a grenade example above - he certainly created the situation for himself where he would knowingly die.

So what's your point? Yes, Christ knew his earthly body was going to die. Changes nothing.

Jim

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: So what's your point? Yes, Christ knew his earthly body was going to die. Changes nothing. Jim

well, we ALL know our earthly body is going to die.
and - yes - changes nothing
modern equivalent is: suicide by cop.

heck - maybe this is part of God's sense of humor?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I had refrained from commenting on this because it was straying from the thread topic of humor. So I apologize to boondawg, but I want to make a point here. .

Nah, it's all good.

I'm one of the few people that actually like to watch a thread of mine blossom into other avenues.
It's interesting to watch a spark turn into a flame.

As long as i'm not the one getting burned!

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: modern equivalent is: suicide by cop. heck - maybe this is part of God's sense of humor?

No on both counts. How in the heck is Christ giving his life for us the equivelant of someone committing suicide by cop. That may be part of your sense of humor, but certainly not his.

Jim

Off topic a bit...but still fitting. I pointed this out in PM to someone but feel it fits the discussion at hand (note, this is only my views on it from an outside perspective)

Riddle me this then Jimbo: By Jesus dying on the cross during crucifixion, thus paying the debt for everyone's sins, past and present how does that hold any weight on my life (and the lives of others) 2000+ years later? By saying that this man died for my "sins" (if he were truly a person and not a story created by the people of the time, which is entirely possible), you are basically saying that time is linear, and that my life is already planned out for me (destiny if you will). I have to disagree with that, seeing as the future is just that, the future. It is not yet written. So to restate my original question: If the future is not yet written, and I wasn't alive in the time of this man (I.E., the past), how can his actions affect my life? And how can life already be planned out for someone when there is such a thing as free will? Each action and decision changes the course of ones personal time line. Hence there can be no destiny.

Wrap your mind around that one awhile

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Wrap your mind around that one awhile

And while you are wrapping, if every page of my life is aready known, what happens to my gaurintee of free will?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: And while you are wrapping, if every page of my life is aready known, what happens to my gaurintee of free will?

Good question Boonie I think he understands my point

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: No on both counts. How in the heck is Christ giving his life for us the equivelant of someone committing suicide by cop. That may be part of your sense of humor, but certainly not his. Jim

so, getting other people to kill you is not suicide? maybe I'm just unclear on what constitutes suicide.

is that like in the above grenade example - if you throw yourself on a live grenade to save others - you did not kill yourself, the grenade killed you?

I can perfectly accept that intentions have to do with whether or not it is called suicide. but, does this now mean suicide bombers are not really suicide bombers? since they are not killing themselves because they are sick of living, but doing so "for a cause", whatever that may be.

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Off topic a bit...but still fitting. I pointed this out in PM to someone but feel it fits the discussion at hand (note, this is only my views on it from an outside perspective) Riddle me this then Jimbo: By Jesus dying on the cross during crucifixion, thus paying the debt for everyone's sins, past and present how does that hold any weight on my life (and the lives of others) 2000+ years later? By saying that this man died for my "sins" (if he were truly a person and not a story created by the people of the time, which is entirely possible), you are basically saying that time is linear, and that my life is already planned out for me (destiny if you will). I have to disagree with that, seeing as the future is just that, the future. It is not yet written. So to restate my original question: If the future is not yet written, and I wasn't alive in the time of this man (I.E., the past), how can his actions affect my life? And how can life already be planned out for someone when there is such a thing as free will? Each action and decision changes the course of ones personal time line. Hence there can be no destiny. Wrap your mind around that one awhile

I'm not sure I understand your question. I never said your life was predetermined or that you have no free will. He gave his life, you have to make a coice to accept it or not. So go back and start again.

Jim

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: I'm done with you because now you're just being stupid. You got it right. Jesus strapped bombs to himself and ran into a crowd of sinners to save them. I totally see it now. How could I have been so blind? Jim

just trying to see how Christ knowingly putting himself into a situation, knowing it would kill him, was not suicide.

and, seeing how how you think Jesus strapped bombs to himself, not sure you are the right person to be answering.....
because I certianly cant see anyone else claiming that

is a martyr suicide? because I think the "sinful" aspect of suicide is not the death - but the wanting to throw away the gift of life God gave - for selfish reasons. Intentions.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: What exceptions? If you can't tell the difference between giving and taking, then I don't know what to tell you. It's as clear as the nose on my face. Your just making excuses. I pray you get it straightened out before it's too late. Jim

It might be as clear as the nose on your face, but since I can't see you, that doesn't mean much to me. A perfect example of perspective. But I digress...

What if a guy is actually fed up, and wants to kill himself. Then one day he sees a live grenade and throws himself on it. It blows him to smithereens, but he inadvertently saves a dozen lives in the process. Heaven or hell?

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: It might be as clear as the nose on your face, but since I can't see you, that doesn't mean much to me. A perfect example of perspective. But I digress...

That's why I used my nose instead of yours, I know mine is there.

quote What if a guy is actually fed up, and wants to kill himself. Then one day he sees a live grenade and throws himself on it. It blows him to smithereens, but he inadvertently saves a dozen lives in the process. Heaven or hell?

With those facts as you present them, it would be hell. The fact that other lives are saved is irrelevant and has no bearing on the actions and intent of the first person. I don't understand why people keep thinking 1 dimensionally and put the restrictions on God that are on their own life. He is omniscient and omnipresent. You can't fool God. This is going be great when you pull this stuff out on judgment day. We'll see who has a sense of humor.

Jim

Edit: I forgot to spellcheck. I'm not omnicient.

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 01-15-2010).]

Overlooking the irony in your comment I'll move right to the fact that I'm not too worried, I don't believe in hell. I know God has a sense of humor, I read this forum daily.....

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Overlooking the irony in your comment I'll move right to the fact that I'm not too worried, I don't believe in hell. I know God has a sense of humor, I read this forum daily.....

Speaking of irony. How do you believe in God and not believe in Hell? Your flexible with that, but not with suicide. If God is God, then Hell is Hell, and it's real. "Give me one God to go, but hold the Hell please"

Jim

Ahh..well. my comment about suicide wasn't a statement of MY belief, it was a challenge to those who do believe it. I don't personally believe it.

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Riddle me this then Jimbo: By Jesus dying on the cross during crucifixion, thus paying the debt for everyone's sins, past and present how does that hold any weight on my life (and the lives of others) 2000+ years later? By saying that this man died for my "sins" (if he were truly a person and not a story created by the people of the time, which is entirely possible), you are basically saying that time is linear,. . . .

Go back and read what I said earlier. I explained how it affects you. The one thing you can't avoid, regardless of your side trip into semantics, is that you know there is something you have done, sometime deliberately and sometimes inadvertently, which brought harm, physical or psychological, to another person. That is sin. Who am I to make such a moral statement?
Consider this:
Matthew 22:35, 36, 37, 38, 39
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

There isn't any more clear moral standard articulated anywhere in any history or philosophy. " Love your neighbor as yourself " is as simple as any standard can be. No one in his right mind deliberately mistreats himself, but everyone of us has mistreated someone else and violated this simple standard. That is sin; that makes us all sinners and has nothing to do with the flow of time, destiny, or any other side trip you want to make.

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Have you ever known what to do that was good and didn't do it? Again, so has every one of us. That makes you, me, and everyone a sinner. To have fellowship with God we need a Savior.
Jesus Christ was and is that Savior. Man-made concepts such as destiny, linearity, flow of time or whatever won't change that.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, like the throwing oneself on a grenade example above - he certainly created the situation for himself where he would knowingly die.

As often is the case, you bring up some good questions.

Best to just go back to the fundamentals. The commandment, in spite of the common translation, is "thou shalt not MURDER." It should never have been translated "thou shalt not kill".


Well, murder is killing, but with a certain INTENT. So INTENT is crucial in the killing.

So in your scenario, if you jump on a grenade, knowing you are likely to be killed, you are not doing it because you wish to murder yourself. Your intent is to save others.

So it depends on how you define suicide. If you define it as KILLING yourself, then you committed suicide.
If you define suicide as MURDERING yourself-- i.e. the intentional killing of yourself with the express purpose of ending your own life--then the grenade jumper didn't commit suicide.

But regarding how God feels about it, it doesn't matter how SUICIDE is defined. The grenade jumper wasn't trying to murder himself. His motive was to save others. So NO sin and no condemnation.


Suicide by cop. Well, that person wanted to murder him/herself. But they didn't have the courage. So in order to be murdered, they placed themselves in a position where someone would kill them. The MOTIVE was for them to decide when they would be killed. So, whether you call it suicide or not, that IS sin and brings condemnation.


So, yes, on a fundamental level, God does not give someone permission to decide for selfish reasons at what point their gift of life will be over. God reserves that for Himself to decide. If one usurps that authority and decides for themselves when it will end, that is sin and condemned.

I'll give my usual disclaimer. That is from a strict read of what the Bible says and not my opinion. Everyone is entitled to make up their own mind whether what the Bible declares is the truth or not.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: Go back and read what I said earlier. I explained how it affects you. The one thing you can't avoid, regardless of your side trip into semantics, is that you know there is something you have done, sometime deliberately and sometimes inadvertently, which brought harm, physical or psychological, to another person. That is sin. Who am I to make such a moral statement? Consider this: Matthew 22:35, 36, 37, 38, 39 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There isn't any more clear moral standard articulated anywhere in any history or philosophy. " Love your neighbor as yourself " is as simple as any standard can be. No one in his right mind deliberately mistreats himself, but everyone of us has mistreated someone else and violated this simple standard. That is sin; that makes us all sinners and has nothing to do with the flow of time, destiny, or any other side trip you want to make. James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Have you ever known what to do that was good and didn't do it? Again, so has every one of us. That makes you, me, and everyone a sinner. To have fellowship with God we need a Savior. Jesus Christ was and is that Savior. Man-made concepts such as destiny, linearity, flow of time or whatever won't change that.

Therein lies the disagreement. Reread what I have posted earlier and you will see that I wholeheartedly believe that I need no one as my "savior" outside of myself. My actions, good or bad, are what save me. To quote: "I am my own redeemer." Semantics does play a major role in all of this, as well as all other world religions/ideas/philosophies, etc. You cannot deny that fact.

What I do in my life holds no weight over someone else and their life. I do what I feel is necessary for me, regardless of if others consider it a "sin". At least by "sinning", I am able to enjoy life to its fullest. Love thy neighbor? Horseshit. Why should I love my neighbor if they turn around and spite me, kick dirt in my eye, etc? Would it not be better if I turn around and do the same to them 10x over so they go away with much needed knowledge to ruminate over? Do unto others as they do unto you is the golden rule IMHO.

If you want to talk about sin all day, and how we are all sinners, yadda yadda...Consider the "original sin"...If you are one that subscribes to that dichotomy, then yes, we are all sinners. And we will all burn in "Hell", should you believe in it. We are all born out of sin, but I digress...

You missed my point with my lasts posts, and if you can't pick it out of all those posts on your own, thats your problem. Its blatantly obvious.

[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 01-15-2010).]

Now, back to Boondawg's original question. I'm reasonably sure God is looking at this and finding humor in our attempt to explain/analyze Him. Of course, He is shaking His head at the same time.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: Well, of course, if you are your own god, none of this applies.

Exactly. And now you understand

And by that, I basically answered my own question that I posed to Jimbo earlier.

One more thing to note though that I missed is that time, space, etc. are all natural constants. They are far from man made as you said. Destiny could be considered man made, but thats a moot point.

quote Riddle me this then Jimbo: By Jesus dying on the cross during crucifixion, thus paying the debt for everyone's sins, past and present how does that hold any weight on my life (and the lives of others) 2000+ years later? By saying that this man died for my "sins" (if he were truly a person and not a story created by the people of the time, which is entirely possible), you are basically saying that time is linear, and that my life is already planned out for me (destiny if you will). I have to disagree with that, seeing as the future is just that, the future. It is not yet written. So to restate my original question: If the future is not yet written, and I wasn't alive in the time of this man (I.E., the past), how can his actions affect my life? And how can life already be planned out for someone when there is such a thing as free will? Each action and decision changes the course of ones personal time line. Hence there can be no destiny.

Christ died so that our sins may be forgiven, then, now and in the future. You make your own destiny by your own free will. That means you are free to be evil if you want to be, but you will pay a price (in this life or the afterlife) if you are unrepentant for any evil deeds you may have committed in your lifetime.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 01-15-2010).]

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: Well, of course, if you are your own god, none of this applies.

Yes. That's why when I have answered, I have made sure that when I have talked about what God thinks or does, everyone knows I'm talking about strictly as portrayed in the Bible and none of my own personal opinion.

So if someone is their own god, obviously that changes what the answer would be.

But also, if someone bases God partly on the Bible, but then throw their own variations in, we are also in a situation where we aren't talking about the same thing and it is hard to apply it to the discussion, too. And that situation is a lot more common.

For the original question:
"Does God have a sense of humor?"

I very much hope He does not have one.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Best to just go back to the fundamentals. The commandment, in spite of the common translation, is "thou shalt not MURDER." It should never have been translated "thou shalt not kill". Well, murder is killing, but with a certain INTENT. So INTENT is crucial in the killing. So in your scenario, if you jump on a grenade, knowing you are likely to be killed, you are not doing it because you wish to murder yourself. Your intent is to save others.

But what about the marine wearing ablative body armor? He may very well survive the explosion. When thinking about it from this perspective, it becomes a cost/benefit analysis. He may injure himself so that the majority of the group is made safe and able to continue on. Even though he may be killed or at least severely wounded, it's a worthwhile risk in order to complete the overall objective. If he dies, it isn't suicide... quite as much as it is an accident - an unintended consequence of his own actions.

If you want to follow this further, you start to question whether "endangering" oneself is a sin in its own right. If this action could result in your own death, even though the chances are slim, is this against the will of the Creator? But then again, the Bible does explicitly state that a man who willingly gives his own life is a model of holiness.

So then, does the act of risking one's life -in any way- for others' sake make one holy?

---==---==---
I've spent hours debating this very subject with priests, pastors, philosophers, etc... It is one of those things that you really have to think about, despite the fact that it may have absolutely no relevance to yourself.

[This message has been edited by skuzzbomer (edited 01-17-2010).]

Does a superstition have a sense of humour?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: For the original question: "Does God have a sense of humor?" I very much hope He does not have one.

What, no one is going to ask Don why?

Why do I always have to do the dirtywork?!

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Off topic a bit...but still fitting. I pointed this out in PM to someone but feel it fits the discussion at hand (note, this is only my views on it from an outside perspective) Riddle me this then Jimbo: By Jesus dying on the cross during crucifixion, thus paying the debt for everyone's sins, past and present how does that hold any weight on my life (and the lives of others) 2000+ years later? By saying that this man died for my "sins" (if he were truly a person and not a story created by the people of the time, which is entirely possible), you are basically saying that time is linear, and that my life is already planned out for me (destiny if you will). I have to disagree with that, seeing as the future is just that, the future. It is not yet written. So to restate my original question: If the future is not yet written, and I wasn't alive in the time of this man (I.E., the past), how can his actions affect my life? And how can life already be planned out for someone when there is such a thing as free will? Each action and decision changes the course of ones personal time line. Hence there can be no destiny. Wrap your mind around that one awhile

How are they saying time is linear by Jesus dying for the sins of all who repent?