Possibly have a chance to pick one of these up for cheap, in good shape, but needs head work. Probably gaskets. Not too hard. Its a 93 VR4, fully optioned (heated leather, mirrors, etc)...The one I am looking at fits my wants to a T. And if I decide not to keep it, I can turn around and sell it for 3x what they are asking

How good are they in snow? I would imagine being AWD and 4000+ lbs, they'd be pretty damn good...Granted, if I were to get it, it wouldn't see much snow, as it would be mainly a summer driver for fun maybe a weekend warrior.

I love the looks of them, and have wanted a VR4 since I first bought my 92 eclipse a few years back and found out about these. From what I understand, they will give the Z06 vette's a run for their money in stock form. How well do the actually handle though with the AWS and electronic suspension?

actually the weight is 3,100–3,800 lbs and usually I think its more than just gaskets...

I have a Dodge Stealth TT which is a rebadged 3000GT VR4. They weigh from 3650-3800# depending on the year. No heated leather but it will have power everything else. Also depending on the year it might have 4 wheel steering and active aero package where the front air dam will lower and the rear wing will change angle depending on your speed. The earlier years have them, the later do not hence the lighter weight.

How they perform in the snow depends on their tires. If you put snow tires on them, they are awsome in the snow. If you try to drive in the snow with street tires, then you will be all over the road.

They are very fun cars and relatively easy to get speed out of. With basic modifications and less than $100 you can get them into the lower 13's. If you launch the hell out of it and hit the gears right, you can hit the high 12's. With about $8000 in bolt-on upgrades you have a 10 second car in a full weight car. There are some people in the 9's and 8's but you have to really know what you are doing to do that and 10 second 1/4 miles is insanely fast for a street car anyway. I have a few basic upgrades on my car and the last time I ran the 1/4 mile I did it in 13.3 @ 106 which is enough for me.

What year is the car? How many miles on it?

in stock form i doubt they would hang with a Zo6

there big heavy cars, i would rather have a 1G awd DSM if thats kinda the route i was looking to go for...

back in my street raceing days i raced a few 3000GT VR4's and i could pull a few carlengths on a C5 Zo6 in my V8 Fiero
and alot more car lenghts on a VR4
they have a good platform, its just about 500lbs too heavy

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: in stock form i doubt they would hang with a Zo6

No kidding. These were slightly slower than C4 vettes, which were out at the same time these cars were. The AWD just flat out makes them heavy. I think that in stock form you wouldn't have much of a chance against a C5 vette, much less a Z06.

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: in stock form i doubt they would hang with a Zo6 there big heavy cars, i would rather have a 1G awd DSM if thats kinda the route i was looking to go for... back in my street racing days i raced a few 3000GT VR4's and i could pull a few carlengths on a C5 Zo6 in my V8 Fiero and alot more car lenghts on a VR4 they have a good platform, its just about 500lbs too heavy

This is a popular misconception. They weigh 3760 at the heaviest. They are GT cars, not sports cars. Even at the time that they came out, they were about 100-200 pounds heavier than Mustangs and Camaros. By today's standard they are actually lighter compared to the current Challenger, Camaro and Mustang GT500.

It was not made to compete against the Corvette. It was made to compete against the 300ZX which I think it did well. I guess it is a bit of a complement that 3S's are compared to Corvettes all the time but it is not a fair comparison.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: This is a popular misconception. They weigh 3760 at the heaviest. They are GT cars, not sports cars. Even at the time that they came out, they were about 100-200 pounds heavier than Mustangs and Camaros. By today's standard they are actually lighter compared to the current Challenger, Camaro and Mustang GT500. It was not made to compete against the Corvette. It was made to compete against the 300ZX which I think it did well. I guess it is a bit of a complement that 3S's are compared to Corvettes all the time but it is not a fair comparison.

Sure it's a fair comparison....the cost was about the same.

And yes, the new cars are heavier, which is a shame, but they're also fighting against 15 additional years of government required safety regulations and other BS. I was shocked to find out that the Hyundai Genesis coupe weighs in at ~3500 lbs. And it's not that big of a car.....

quote Originally posted by SGS: Sure it's a fair comparison....the cost was about the same. And yes, the new cars are heavier, which is a shame, but they're also fighting against 15 additional years of government required safety regulations and other BS. I was shocked to find out that the Hyundai Genesis coupe weighs in at ~3500 lbs. And it's not that big of a car.....

Then you can't compare it to a Z06. The Z06 didn't even exist when 3000GTs were produced.

If you compare it to a Corvette of the same year then it is competitive in performance within .5 sec on the 1/4 mile. Then when you factor in build quality, all weather driving, comfort, passenger space then the 3S IMO wins hands down.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Then you can't compare it to a Z06. The Z06 didn't even exist when 3000GTs were produced.

Now that I agree with. But that comment was only made to inform the OP that if you think you're going to head out and dust a Z06 with this car, then you're mistaken. Well, let me clarify that...the Z06 is certainly capable as a car...but most people who own vettes are complete douchebags, and they can't drive.

quote If you compare it to a Corvette of the same year then it is competitive in performance within .5 sec on the 1/4 mile. Then when you factor in build quality, all weather driving, comfort, passenger space then the 3S IMO wins hands down.

You do realize that .5 second in the quarter mile equates to about 3-4 car lengths at 100 mph (the speed these cars would trap), which equates to an ass kicking.

And yes, especially compared to a C4 corvette, hands down the VR4 would be the better built car. NO argument there whatsoever.

quote Originally posted by SGS: You do realize that .5 second in the quarter mile equates to about 3-4 car lengths at 100 mph (the speed these cars would trap), which equates to an ass kicking. And yes, especially compared to a C4 corvette, hands down the VR4 would be the better built car. NO argument there whatsoever.

I know that. I use .5 second because the numbers vary from year to year, magazine testers conditions etc. Most of the number are very close.

http://www.albeedigital.com...icles/0-60times.html

1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 5.3 13.8
1992 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 5.8 14.3
1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 5.3 14.0
1994 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 5.7 14.2
1995 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 5.4 13.5
1997 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 4.8 13.6

I removed the ZR-1 because those were well out of the price range

1991 Chevrolet Corvette L98 5.3 13.9
1991 Chevrolet Corvette Roadster 5.6 14.1
1992 Chevrolet Corvette LT1 5.7 14.1
1993 Chevrolet Corvette LT1 5.3 13.9
1994 Chevrolet Corvette LT1(auto) 5.5 14.1
1995 Chevrolet Corvette LT1 5.2 13.7
1996 Chevrolet Corvette Collectors' 4.9 13.3
1996 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport 4.7 13.3
1997 Chevrolet Corvette 4.7 13.3

i believe VR4's are sexy. the dodge stealth r/t's are sexy too lol.
dont be scared and get one i say!

QUESTION: i heard they had transmission issues... any truth to that? something i read on the interweb.

theres a 1995 3000gt spyder in california that usually sells from 30-40k. its hella nice tho.

Good luck dude.

quote Originally posted by ghost187x: i believe VR4's are sexy. the dodge stealth r/t's are sexy too lol. dont be scared and get one i say! QUESTION: i heard they had transmission issues... any truth to that? something i read on the interweb. theres a 1995 3000gt spyder in california that usually sells from 30-40k. its hella nice tho. Good luck dude.

It depends on the year. The 91-93's had aluminum transfer cases that are prone to breaking if you do a high rpm (5000 rpm+) launch. The 91-92's had output shafts that were a little weaker than the later models and could sheer off during high rpm launches. The 94-99s have a tendency to crack the transmission housing if raced or abused.

All of them have fixes such as there is available a cast steel transfer case for the 91-93's. There is also a 300M output shaft available for the 91-92. For the 94-99 you can strengthen the housing with welded in braces.

As with all cars, if you don't abuse it or race, then you won't break anything.

From an Old Man Take it or leave it
From your history on PFF, you are not exactly in the 'comfortable' range of income.
If an older car is $3000 cheaper than most others available in good condition, and unless the seller is a fool or skint, and doesn't know anything about the car, you are going to have to part with at least HALF that amount to attain the same level of reliability..so it ISN'T cheap at all...and if it is such a good proposition that you can sell for a LOT more, why hasn't anybody else snapped it up?
Is this car going to be your 'reliable daily driver'? If it IS, then reliability, economy of running it and maintaining it should be you PRIME concern, not how fast it runs in a standing quarter or whatever. If you are going to thrash it, I can guarantee it WON'T become a more reliable Daily Driver, but a more unreliable one.
Maybe you should be more concerned about yourself, rather than your 'street cred'. THEN you will, eventually, be able to buy a NICE sportscar, in GOOD condition, for a fair price. And not be struggling any more. And project an image that actually reflects YOU, and not your 'dreams'.
Brian, I don't want to be a party-pooper putting a damper on your 'dreams'. because, in the cold light of day, they ARE dreams. try to get the things you NEED before you get the things you WANT. The first will facilitate the second, if you have patience, and wait...and respect yourself, not the image you want to project to people WHO DON'T KNOW you. because it won't impress those who DO
If this is wrong, please ignore it, and accept my apologies for trying to be a little more perceptive than I really am
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-14-2010).]

I just sold my 91 VR4. with all season radials the thing was a hoot to drive in the snow, but you have to keep in mind the ground clearance! with after market boost controler and stage 2 clutch it would light up all 4 wheels..of course you have to try it once or twice. transfer case, rearend and 3 piece drive shaft are also potential big dollar repairs. They also recomend changing the timing belt, oil pump, turbo oil lines and some other things every 60K, just something to see if it was taken care of. you may want to just check into insurance, that almost put me on the floor and was the big factor in why I sold mine. But I sure miss the fun!!

IF I get it, I don't plan on beating it to death. It would be more of a fun reliable summer DD over anything else. And with the long flat stretches of highway here in Nebraska, the TT 3.0 5speed, boy would it be fun Not really planning on modding this all that much, maybe a few bolt ons (turbo timer, intercooler, larger BOV, CAI, etc). Don't need a monster of a car, just something more fun to drive than this Grand Am GT. Maybe down the line keep this as a straight DD year round and sell the GAGT...not sure yet.

I already know what the financial aspects look like if I buy this car. I can manage it. Its not like I need food lol. In all seriousness though, I don't eat much (once a day) like I used to, and I have bills paid up with money that was refunded from school, with some left to spare. I got a friend that can help me out if need be as a cosigner for a personal loan (last resort as I don't really want to burden him with it), and a job on the way. Plus I have money set aside from what I've been getting for unemployment as a rainy day fund so to speak. I'm crafty with money and can figure out ways to pull it out of thin air if I need/want something Look at the Fiero and how much I put into that I bought it because I wanted it, and still managed to make a profit/keep it running and mod it.

Insurance is going to be the major killer on this deal if I get it. Being 24, with 2 accidents under my belt (both in 2007 set to come off my record this year), its gonna be high. Mainly the being 24 part and having a sports car lol.

I'm not even sure if its still available either. Was posted for sale on 12/26, so it could be (and probably is gone). Considering they were asking $2300 for it with head work (not cheap, but cheap for this car considering they go on egay for between 3700 and 6500). Depending on what kind of work it needs on the heads (rethought my previous statement, either gaskets or timing belt crap is what I'm thinking) I may be able to get it down around 1700-1900. Thats the only way I'd take it honestly.

Head work? You need more details on that. If the timing belt broke then there may be bent valves or even in severe situations, broken pistons.

They have MLS (Multi-Layer Steel) head gaskets which are very strong. You generally don't see many blown head gaskets.

It could also be misdiagnosed valve stem seals. When they get old and hard the engine will start to smoke which a lot of people think is bad valve guides.

Thats what I was figuring Doug. If the timing belt snapped, its going to need a valve job regardless. Unless its one of those rare instances that nothing got bent/destroyed (I've seen a few 1G eclipses that got lucky), but I highly doubt it. Has 107xxx miles on it... Wouldn't surprise me though one bit if its a timing belt. Biggest problem with DSM's since no one replaces them at 60k like they are supposed to (my eclipse went 100k before it was replaced by me, I was 3rd owner and bought it at 96k).

Like you said though, need to get more info. Trying to get ahold of the guy now to see what is wrong with it. Hoping for Valve stem guides semi cheap and easy fix...

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: In all seriousness though, I don't eat much (once a day) like I used to, and I have bills paid up with money that was refunded from school, with some left to spare. I got a friend that can help me out if need be as a cosigner for a personal loan (last resort as I don't really want to burden him with it), and a job on the way. Plus I have money set aside from what I've been getting for unemployment as a rainy day fund so to speak.

Money from school, cosigner for a loan, no job, and money from unemployment.

Yeah, this sounds like a fantastic financial move.

quote Insurance is going to be the major killer on this deal if I get it. Being 24, with 2 accidents under my belt (both in 2007 set to come off my record this year), its gonna be high. Mainly the being 24 part and having a sports car lol.

24, two wrecks, and a sports car.....I'd say the insurance is a killer. If you get the car for $2300, it's quite possible you'll spend that on insurance in a year. Might wanna look into that.

Just talked to the guy. The head work that this needs sounds like its timing related. He said a mechanic told him it needs a valve job. But from what I gather without looking at the car, when the timing belt was replaced they didn't time the car right. He said the belt was replaced recently and afterwards the car would crank and fire, but when you hit the gas it would stumble and die.

Going to check it out Saturday and see what I can come up with. Thinking of offering him significantly less than the 2300 that he's asking, since I don't know for certain if it needs the valve job or not. And rebuilding the heads isn't cheap with a DSM from what I've seen personally lol.

If I can get it for dirt cheap, it would sure beat the 96 Olds I found for $350 that needs a LIM gasket

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Just talked to the guy. The head work that this needs sounds like its timing related. He said a mechanic told him it needs a valve job. But from what I gather without looking at the car, when the timing belt was replaced they didn't time the car right. He said the belt was replaced recently and afterwards the car would crank and fire, but when you hit the gas it would stumble and die. Going to check it out Saturday and see what I can come up with. Thinking of offering him significantly less than the 2300 that he's asking, since I don't know for certain if it needs the valve job or not. And rebuilding the heads isn't cheap with a DSM from what I've seen personally lol. If I can get it for dirt cheap, it would sure beat the 96 Olds I found for $350 that needs a LIM gasket

You are right. If it was not timed right, then it would run like crap.

Too bad there is no "easy" way to check the timing. At the very least you have to take the cam gear covers off and then turn the engine until the marks line up. Then to get the complete timing you have to take off the driver's side wheel, splash cover and front engine cover to check the crank timing mark.

I would definately check the dip stick (on the engine, not the owner) for foam in case of coolant in the oil and rev the engine and look for blue smoke as a sign of burning oil.

Opinions on what to offer him? Without ripping into the motor, I have no clue what kind of work it may or may not need, and if it is a valve job...ouch. Not cheap, especially if the heads are cracked...

I'm thinking somewhere between 1200 and 1500 to start, no more than 1700 or 1800. With the possible valve job in the future (and if the timing is out and the valves smacked the pistons), 1500 seems fair for a car that still books between $3700 and $5400 in fair condition...

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: IF I get it, I don't plan on beating it to death. It would be more of a fun reliable summer DD over anything else. And with the long flat stretches of highway here in Nebraska, the TT 3.0 5speed, boy would it be fun Not really planning on modding this all that much, maybe a few bolt ons (turbo timer, intercooler, larger BOV, CAI, etc). Don't need a monster of a car, just something more fun to drive than this Grand Am GT. Maybe down the line keep this as a straight DD year round and sell the GAGT...not sure yet.

I had a friend of a friend that had one in high school. I didn't get to spend much time with it, but it was a great car. The VR-4 of course was the only one worth it's weight in beans (or however that metaphore goes). The non turbo ones (SL, etc...) were unbelievably piss-slow. The VR-4 of course was a quick car, and in the last few years of it's production run it was really a great car. Not much had changed, but they fixed several problems (although I don't know what that was?).

As you now know... it's not really a match-up for the Z06 Corvette. Early Z06s ran nearly a flat 13, and newer ones are running mid 11s in the quarter mile... so it's probably not going to happen.

I can't judge on your priorities, but I don't think a 1993 anything at this point (unless it's a Civic or a Corolla) makes a very good daily driver. I don't know what your qualifications are, but it certainly doesn't get good gas mileage, and even though it's an AWD car, the tires are like steam-rollers so you're not likely to get any real decent traction in the snow. I know it's heavy of course, so that does have an effect on handling, but it should still do well. in wet / dry adhesion assuming you have good tires.

I don't really know how reliable it is. If you're getting it for really cheap, then the chances are there's probably more wrong with it. I'm really jaded because I've been in situations where I just had too many cars, too many projects, etc. What ended up happening is that one car would get work while the others would suffer. But that's not for me to decide.

There's one thing for certain though, it's a pretty cool car!!!

------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

well, went and checked it out today.

Apparently I go to school with this guy Did find out that his dad runs a trans shop. So the new clutch was professionally installed. He had an SL sitting in the driveway right behind it. Also has a rebuilt ECM and new front brakes.

List of parts I know it needs is new tires, and a new stereo ( I have one that I can throw in, not a big deal)...

Another good thing about this VR4 is that it has a removable sunroof that is almost the size of the entire roof (think Supra sports roof from the 80s), which is apparently very rare for a VR4 to have (extra $2000 or so dealer option).

Battery was dead but on charger. Cranks over and starts to fire. I still believe it is a timing issue and not a valve issue (outside of valve guide seals, it was throwing some blue smoke when he was cranking it).

Overall, I'd judge it to be around 80% condition.

I'm going to take it. I can get machine shop work done at school for next to nothing, do my own labor (all this providing that it does need a valve job), and be into it for next to nothing. Valves are cheap (about $6 each through rockauto) if it needs the VJ, and in the event that it needs new heads, I can get em on ebay (new factory heads) for around $400

Book value is $6800 retail and $3500 trade in (my buddy looked it up when I stopped by the car lot). Got the kid down to $1500 on it from $2300, but I think I can get him further when I show up with a wad of cash in hand to pick it up

I love this car Tan on black, and it looks good from about 5ft away paintwise...needs a touchup here and there, nothing terrible. And I have 5-6 body/paint guys at my disposal.

As for fuel mileage, it really isn't going to be much different, I should see about 21 or so around here considering its flat and straight (cruise control anyone )...I'm getting 23 or so with the GAGT, so not a big difference at all. And considering how much I'd drive the VR4, wouldn't cost me much at all...

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Forgot to mention...I about crapped myself when I looked at the door sticker. 4216lb GVWR Its also a Dec 92 car (early 93 model).

Keep in mind that the GVWR is the MAXIMUM amount the car can weigh. Full of fuel, fluids, people, groceries, dogs, cats, booze, etc.

That's not what it DOES weigh, just what the manufacturer rates as the maximum load.

They're heavy cars...but not THAT heavy.

I figure as much

Can't wait lol, I'm like a kid in a candy store I'm so giddy right now

I owned a new VR4 back in '91 and must say that it was the best vehicle that I have ever owned. Neck snapping speed and acceleration, outstanding cornering with awd and aws, but......
it spent almost 1/2 of the time I owned it at the dealer. First year production, vibration at 55 mph, etc...... man I miss this car!

Since that one, I have had the pleasure of owning a '92 Stealth R/T and a '95 3000GT SL. I would still have the '95 if the economy had not fallen apart back in '08! grrrrrrrr.

I am actually looking for a '94 or up Stealth R/T non turbo as I type this.

A good place to go for unlimited information about the good and the bad is www.3si.org . I have been there for a couple of years now and it is a lot like here. Mucho information and knowledge.

quote Originally posted by railshot: I owned a new VR4 back in '91 and must say that it was the best vehicle that I have ever owned. Neck snapping speed and acceleration, outstanding cornering with awd and aws, but...... it spent almost 1/2 of the time I owned it at the dealer. First year production, vibration at 55 mph, etc...... man I miss this car! Since that one, I have had the pleasure of owning a '92 Stealth R/T and a '95 3000GT SL. I would still have the '95 if the economy had not fallen apart back in '08! grrrrrrrr. I am actually looking for a '94 or up Stealth R/T non turbo as I type this. A good place to go for unlimited information about the good and the bad is www.3si.org . I have been there for a couple of years now and it is a lot like here. Mucho information and knowledge.

Main reason I want one...With the way they look, they just scream performance Looks better than a vette IMO. I want a fun car to drive...I thought the GAGT would be fun, but it just gets boring after awhile. Nowhere near as fun as the Fiero was

there are a bunch of 3000gt's in southern california. most are SL versions. Most of them are red though. Ilike the 94-99 versions. They are beautiful... now you have me wanting one

Take the book value of the vehicle, subtract the cost of a new/rebuilt engine.

Offer him that, any more would be over paying him.

The looser cruiser I just got for 400 was a good deal even though I have to buy a new trany. Just don’t have the money for it right now.

Always when buying a new car,( to you ) look at the worst case scenario.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

That is cool that it has a removable sunroof. You're right those are very rare. I wish you luck in getting it.

Im tellin you its a bad move..... Plus how is it you can spend $1500 on a car but cant afford to pay at most $10 to ship me out a SS gift?

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: Im tellin you its a bad move..... Plus how is it you can spend $1500 on a car but cant afford to pay at most $10 to ship me out a SS gift?

Ahhh.... hahah... <crickets>


Yeah... I've been there before (not the SS gift, but buying tons of crappy cars that don't run). This is always a bad idea. If you have ANY cars that aren't "done", then why would you buy another car that needs work???

It totally "makes sense" when you're blinded by the thought of having a plethora of cool cars to drive... but it just never works that way. Even if they were all perfect... no single person with a job and / or going to school has time to maintain dozens of cars.

I say, if you have $1,500 bucks to spend, either save it, or use that to fix your Fiero (or whatever else needs fixing).

But... we've all been there... I've only recently woken up to this... it's car hoarding!!! hahah..

------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: Im tellin you its a bad move..... Plus how is it you can spend $1500 on a car but cant afford to pay at most $10 to ship me out a SS gift?

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/071588.html

Fiero? Whats that Todd? Aren't those the cars that catch fire I don't have one of those...

Got the car today. Grand total of $1400. Picking it up later next week with a trailer, and then its diagnosis time. I can get a set of complete heads with 40k miles on them for $400 in the off chance that I need a valve job. Plans are to turn this into a daily driver with good all weather (not all season) Nokian tires on it, then designated snow tires in the winter. Already have a buyer for the Grand Am when I've got this back on the road and reliable enough to DD it.

Not a bad score me thinks, considering book value on it is still so high.... and the rare removable sunroof is an added bonus