This was written by a CPA in our company;

quote The comments below are from another segment of my Debbie Downer series on economics. If you are in a good mood, don’t read this. Wait until you are down in the dumps, then it will not seem so bad… This is one of the biggest factors (news story below) underlying my belief that we have a very steep and long hill to climb to get out of this recession/depression/credit crunch. When considering Maslow’s pyramid (also shown below), my viewpoint doesn’t look so loony. People are simply not going to start spending money again until they are certain that their basic needs (bottom level) are met. And since more than 1 in 10 people are now at risk of losing a key aspect of the first two levels, their houses, I do not think that there is any significant improvement in sight. Oh yeah, don’t forget that 1 in 10 folks also does not have a job. The best medicine you ask? Debt destruction and savings increases over time. Which implies a long, drawn-out, deflationary period with tepid economic activity. And remember, GDP growth above 2.5% is required to keep/create jobs- just ask Bernanke, he’s the one who said it. I am often wrong, just ask my wife, but I do not see how we can unravel all of these cumulative imbalances (building for years) in a short period of time. Especially with the government giving everyone who is, or was, on their respective deathbeds (GM, Chrysler, Citigroup, AIG, just to name a few) enough steroids just to keep them alive, knowing that they will probably never be able to fully recover. Which would you prefer, death by a thousand cuts, or the guillotine? I vote for the latter, but Uncle Same has voted for the former. Break out the bandages.

You do realize, that much of the spending/funding part of this bill (healthcare reform) will also be in supplementals?
Almost all funding is--regardless of the bills in question or the party in majority.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-02-2009).]

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: I'm not advocating new taxes or even going to comment on the specifics here. But I will say, that something will have to be done to correct this massive debt that your party put on our shoulders. Yay tax breaks for billionaires and nation building in the middle east. YAY!!!!

Another liberal completely consumed by partisanship

Until you are able to step back from your rabid partisan cheerleading, you'll remain part of the problem. Both parties got us where we are today, and both parties will continue to screw us over.

THE COW AND THE ICE CREAM


ONE OF THE BEST EXPLANATIONS OF WHY OBAMA WON THE ELECTION
- From a teacher in the Nashville area

"We are worried about "the cow" when it is all about the "Ice Cream"


The most eye-opening civics lesson I ever had was while
teaching third grade this year.


The presidential election was heating up and some of the
children showed an interest.


I decided we would have an election for a class president..
We would choose our nominees. They would make a campaign speech and the class would vote.

To simplify the process, candidates were nominated by other class members.

We discussed what kinds of characteristics these students
should have. We got many nominations and from those, Jamie and Olivia were
picked to run for the top spot. The class had done a great job in their selections. Both candidates were good kids.


I thought Jamie might have an advantage because he got lots
of parental support. I had never seen Olivia's mother.


The day arrived when they were to make their speeches.
Jamie went first.

He had specific ideas about how to make our class a better
place. He ended by promising to do his very best. Everyone applauded and he
sat down.


Now is was Olivia's turn to speak. Her speech was
concise. She said, "If you will vote for me, I will give you ice cream."
She sat down.


The class went wild. "Yes! Yes! We want ice
cream." She surely would say more. She did not have to.


A discussion followed.

How did she plan to pay for the ice cream? She wasn't
sure. Would her parenta buy it or would the class pay for it. She didn't know..
The class really didn't care. All they were thinking about was ice cream.


Jamie was forgotten. Olivia won by a landslide.


Every time Barack Obama opened his mouth he offered ice
cream and 52 percent of the people reacted like nine year olds.
They want ice cream. The other 48 percent know they're going to have to feed the cow and
clean up the mess."



Remember, the government cannot give anything to anyone --- that they have not first taken away from someone else.

yup...I'm sure we've all been to WalMart and seen the magnificence our public can attain.....

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: THE COW AND THE ICE CREAM (snip) Remember, the government cannot give anything to anyone --- that they have not first taken away from someone else.

Superb, OL, superb!

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: THE COW AND THE ICE CREAM ONE OF THE BEST EXPLANATIONS OF WHY OBAMA WON THE ELECTION - From a teacher in the Nashville area

But you have to be able to sell the speech. Thats the part I don't understand. How can the government keep selling us an empty bucket?

We had the same experiment in our JH civics class. I offered everyone free something (I don't remember that was back in the late 70s), they didn't bite and I lost.
I don't have a very good poker face.

What I should have done was lay out a plan to charge 3 times the price for breakfast to pay for the free lunches. Those that didn't eat breakfast would have jumped on it. Doesn't matter if it wouldn't work it sounds good behind a podium.

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: A) Bush never vetoed a Republican spending bill. B) The republicans controlled the majority of Bush's term. C) Bush and the republicans together did far more harm to our economy than a stimulus bill that kept our country out of a depression.

I was high on the list of people SCREAMING about Bush and republicans spending. Totally irresponsible.

But now I have seen they were rank amateurs once Obama and Pelosi and Reid got going.

And somehow you see it has been effective. Interesting. Obama asked Europe to join in their drunken spending orgy, and they looked at him like he was crazy and asked if he was an idiot figuratively. Well, they say they are rebounding well ahead of us,and marvel at our country shooting itself in the foot.

Oh yeah, and everyone in the world loves Obama and has so much respect for the U.S. since he has been president. That's why we got such high consideration to have the Olympics in Chicago.

VAT tax. just like the UK has, which is what we are going to be modeled off of.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I was high on the list of people SCREAMING about Bush and republicans spending. Totally irresponsible.

I'm going to repeat this statement without the other context, so it doesn't distract from my sentiment about it.

I am STILL livid about it. When republican organizations call asking me for donations the call goes like this:

Republican fund raiser: Thank you for your generous support in the past. We have --blah blah blah blah-- need and could we count on you for a donation of $150?

Me: I can give you SIX HUNDRED dollars.

Republican fund raiser: That would be GREAT!

Me: Oh, wait. No. I just remembered. I HAD $600 I could have contributed BUT YOU TAXED IT AWAY FROM ME, AND THEN YOU GAVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE WHO PAID NO TAXES.

Republican fund raiser: Uh, well, uh, uh...

Me: So why don't you call me back when you start being fiscal conservatives and then we can talk.


So I called Bush out about the irresponsible over-spending. And I CONTINUE to loudly send a message, as I am able, to the Republicans about their over-spending.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: It's classic Keynesian policy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics, and it obviously isn't working now. Unemployment continues to rise, and we have no idea what the actual rate of unemployment is because people who have lost any hope of finding a job aren't counted. How is it possible for a recession to be ending without unemployment going down? Business can make investments to increase production, but people who aren't working won't buy whatever is produced. We are broke because of debt, public and private. Until the consumer debt is cleared from the market, there will be no economic recovery. As for giving Washington more money, that's just plain stupid. It won't reduce spending. The President says health care can be paid for without tax increases through savings in Medicare. We've heard that one, Barry. Prove it, then we will talk. Otherwise, you, Pelosi, and Reid are just spendaholic control freaks.

Here is some information that explains how government stimulus not only doesn't work, but can make the problem worse.



The Recovery That Isn’t

October 2, 2009

For those market boosters who are prattling on about the possibility of a “jobless recovery,” I offer an invitation to join me for a breakfast of “fat-free bacon,” “eggless omelets,” and “no-carb bread.” As unappetizing as such a meal may sound, it would nevertheless offer more substance than the oxymoronic concept of an economic resurgence without job creation.

Those who do cling to the absurd belief that, absent exponential productivity gains, the economy can expand while workers are being laid off will undergo a massive test of their convictions now that it’s clear the employment picture is bleak. Today’s weaker-than-expected report on non-farm payrolls revealed that employers shed 263,000 jobs in September. The losses propelled the headline unemployment rate to a 26-year high of 9.8%. U6, the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ most complete measure of unemployment, has risen to a dismal 17%. This figure includes those people who want to work full time, but have simply given up looking, or who have accepted part-time work in the interim. As it is similar to the methodology used during the Great Depression, U6 offers better historical perspective on the severity of our current crisis.

Taken together with yesterday’s larger-than-expected pickup in unemployment claims (first time claims rose by 17,000 to 551,000), today’s report makes it certain that the job market is still contracting, even while some indicators like GDP and consumer confidence are moving in the opposite direction.

There is no question that the sense of panic has temporarily subsided. In recent interviews, Treasury Secretary Geithner has been almost giddy in his descriptions of the recovery – all the while crediting his own policies for averting disaster. Americans are once again taking the government’s bait by spending money they don’t have to buy things they can’t afford. Evidence of this trend was contained in data released earlier this week which showed that even while income growth was largely stagnant, U.S. consumers showed the biggest month-over-month increase in personal spending in ten years! With the same report showing a 25% drop in the savings rate, the source of the spending money is clear. But depleting savings and increasing borrowing does not a recovery make.

To really recuperate, the government must allow market forces to restructure our economy. The government and individuals must rein in their spending; we must replenish our stock of savings, allow interest rates to rise, asset prices to adjust to economic reality, insolvent businesses to fail, and wages to reflect productivity. To accomplish these goals, subsidies that distort market forces must be removed and regulations that undermine our competitiveness must be repealed.

None of this can be accomplished without a degree of short-term economic pain. However, if we endure it, the payback will be a real recovery with plenty of new jobs that don’t rely on government stimulus money. If we refuse to allow the economy to experience a real recession, we will never have the benefit of a real recovery. Instead, we get the “jobless recovery,” a veneer of apparently positive indicators that merely obscures the underlying rot.

Over the last few decades, our industrial job market has atrophied while service- and public-sector jobs have grown unsustainably. We must restore balance. New jobs will have to come from areas that produce goods; bloated service and government sectors must be allowed to shrink. By propping up the sectors that need to contract, and running staggering budget deficits, the government cuts off the capital necessary to fund sectors that need to expand.

In truth, many of the service-sector jobs that exist today, such as real estate sales, mortgage finance, home improvement, and auto sales, were created in an environment of ever-increasing home equity, rising stock prices, and almost unlimited access to cheap consumer credit. With home equity gone, stock markets flat, and credit depleted, Americans find themselves needing to save rather than spend. But Washington has put through policies that have counteracted our good instincts.

While we were focusing our economy on consumer spending, much of the rest of the world was saving for the future. As such, we must begin to produce more for export, so that we can sell goods to those who have the savings to pay for them. That is the only way we can repay our debts, replenish our savings, repair our infrastructure, and rebuild our industrial base.

Another prerequisite to any real economic expansion is the potential for business owners to earn profits. With increased regulation and higher taxes on the way, these incentives are being diminished. In fact, via a phenomenon called ‘regime uncertainty,’ our current policy path is actually encouraging businesses to contract in order to prepare for a more hostile business environment.

Robust economies utilize all spare capacity, or restructure it for better use. Having 17% of our able-bodied population sitting at home or working part-time at Cinnabon indicates that our present policies are weakening the economy – even if GDP is growing. There is no “jobless recovery,” only senseless cheerleading.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: For those market boosters who are prattling on about the possibility of a “jobless recovery,” I offer an invitation to join me for a breakfast of “fat-free bacon,” “eggless omelets,” and “no-carb bread.” As unappetizing as such a meal may sound, it would nevertheless offer more substance than the oxymoronic concept of an economic resurgence without job creation. (snip) Robust economies utilize all spare capacity, or restructure it for better use. Having 17% of our able-bodied population sitting at home or working part-time at Cinnabon indicates that our present policies are weakening the economy – even if GDP is growing. There is no “jobless recovery,” only senseless cheerleading.

I thought I said that, fierobear.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: I thought I said that, fierobear.

Sorry, bro, I might have missed it.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Sorry, bro, I might have missed it.

Try to pay attention, .
J/K,

Liberals are utterly immune to this basic fact:

Highest deficit under Bush: $455 billion

Deficit in Obama's first year: $1,500 billion

Ed

quote Originally posted by edhering: Liberals are utterly immune to this basic fact: Highest deficit under Bush: $455 billion Deficit in Obama's first year: $1,500 billion Ed

Immune to it because it's usually not their money--it's capital they have coveted, stolen, usurped from others. It's what they do. It's what defines them and without it, they don't/can't exist.
You ever see them propose a single idea that they pay for themselves? Ever?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You ever see them propose a single idea that they pay for themselves? Ever?

Twice. Bill married Hilary and has paid for that for years. Wait, it maybe the other way round. And Elizabeth Edwards is paying for marrying John.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: Twice. Bill married Hilary and has paid for that for years. Wait, it maybe the other way round. And Elizabeth Edwards is paying for marrying John.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't both being paid salaries by US--the taxpayers--others?
thought so.

The value added tax will become law soon enough once they tactfully *package* it up as a way to actually *lower* taxes. The VAT will capture a vast portion of the underground economy, the money not taxed on a 1040 form. If the government is clever, they'll *sell* it to the nations top 52% wage earners as a way to tax the lower 48% of the wage earners who don't pay any federal taxes through credits as a way of levering the field or making the tax scheme fairer.

I'm getting the crap taxed out of me right now, I just don't see any relief soon.

quote Originally posted by jetman: The value added tax will become law soon enough once they tactfully *package* it up as a way to actually *lower* taxes. The VAT will capture a vast portion of the underground economy, the money not taxed on a 1040 form. If the government is clever, they'll *sell* it to the nations top 52% wage earners as a way to tax the lower 48% of the wage earners who don't pay any federal taxes through credits as a way of levering the field or making the tax scheme fairer. I'm getting the crap taxed out of me right now, I just don't see any relief soon.

They don't have to 'sell' it to the public, most are too stupid to see it coming ( or understand it if they do ) and they will just pass it into law. Who is going to stop them?