FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!!


Joe Legal vs Jose Illegal



Here is an example of why hiring illegal aliens is not economically productive for the State of California...
You have 2 families..."Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have 2 parents, 2 children and live in California.
"Joe Legal" works in construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes $25.00 per hour with payroll taxes deducted..."Jose Illegal" also works in construction, has "NO" Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".
Joe Legal...$25.00 per hour x 40 hours $1000.00 per week, $52,000 per year
Now take 30% away for state federal tax
Joe Legal now has $31,23 1.00

Jose Illegal...$15.00 per hour x 40 hours $600.00 per week, $31,200.00
per year
Jose Illegal pays no taxes...
Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00

Joe Legal pays Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage
$1000.00 per month
$12,000.00 per year
Joe Legal now has $19,231.00

Jose Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year
Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

Joe Legal makes too much money is not eligible for Food Stamps or welfare
Joe Legal pays for food
$1,000.00 per month
$12,000.00 per year
Joe Legal now has $ 7,231.00

Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and Welfare
Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00

Joe Legal pays rent of
$1,000.00 per month
$12,000.00 per year
Joe Legal is now in the hole
minus (-) $4,769.00

Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy
Jose Illegal pays rent
$500.00 per month
$6,000.00 per year
Jose Illegal still has $25,200.00

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.

Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch.

Jose Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services, but Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.

THIS IS NOT A PARTY ISSUE: IT'S A COMMON SENSE ISSUE.....
If you don't want illegals here, don't vote OR support any politician that supports illegal aliens...

Make it a point to know how your representative votes, State and Federal.

Jose Illegal also may send half of his paycheck back to his extended family in Mexico. That money just left the country.

yup.
and, add to that, if possible - Joe Legal's job will be sent to Gin Asian, because Joe Legal charges to much
it makes best economic sense to hire NEITHER of the Joes, and hire some asians, who you will never see, and will die on the job for you.

but heaven forbid, you as a citizen try to cross the border to get a better deal. this is only available to corporations. YOU will made a criminal. a tax evader. a merchant of contraband.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yup. and, add to that, if possible - Joe Legal's job will be sent to Gin Asian, because Joe Legal charges to much it makes best economic sense to hire NEITHER of the Joes, and hire some asians, who you will never see, and will die on the job for you. but heaven forbid, you as a citizen try to cross the border to get a better deal. this is only available to corporations. YOU will made a criminal. a tax evader. a merchant of contraband.

Operative terms there ="you as a citizen"--with emphasis on citizen. And, YOU will not be "made" anything. You ARE a criminal, tax evader, etc. YOU made yourself those things.

Immigration Quotas were in place for a reason - who was the genius that got rid of them?

quote Originally posted by avengador1: THIS IS NOT A PARTY ISSUE: IT'S A COMMON SENSE ISSUE..... If you don't want illegals here, don't vote OR support any politician that supports illegal aliens... Make it a point to know how your representative votes, State and Federal.

As this nation gives more and more illegals aliens amnesty, you'll see lots of changes. That is what this last election was all about right? Change. When you're taxed beyond your ability to pay, when you've lost your job and are being evicted, remember how you voted. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Ron

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Operative terms there ="you as a citizen"--with emphasis on citizen. And, YOU will not be "made" anything. You ARE a criminal, tax evader, etc. YOU made yourself those things.

right - but a corporation gets to cross broders for better deals

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: right - but a corporation gets to cross broders for better deals

Nice spin/hijack/devil's advocate attempt--got anything that's actually relevant to the topic of this thread?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Nice spin/hijack/devil's advocate attempt--got anything that's actually relevant to the topic of this thread?

yeah, what I posted in the first place, and everything else has been responses to you?
so how's about one more time aorund?

yup.
and, add to that, if possible - Joe Legal's job will be sent to Gin Asian, because Joe Legal charges to much
it makes best economic sense to hire NEITHER of the Joes, and hire some asians, who you will never see, and will die on the job for you.

but heaven forbid, you as a citizen try to cross the border to get a better deal. this is only available to corporations. YOU will made a criminal. a tax evader. a merchant of contraband.

Pssh. Gin Asian doesn't do construction. He is in IT.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Pssh. Gin Asian doesn't do construction. He is in IT.

ya ya - and Joe Indian

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: right - but a corporation gets to cross broders for better deals

Idon't think they should be able too, but... are immigrants jealous of corporations is that your point?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Idon't think they should be able too, but... are immigrants jealous of corporations is that your point?

no, this is comparing hiring a legal vs illegal - when hiring asians is actually done the most, and does the most damage.
at least with an illegal - the money stays in North America

quote Originally posted by avengador1: FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!! Joe Legal vs Jose Illegal

Source, please.

Without a credible source, your latest screed may be true, or it may be
You should know that by now.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: the money stays in North America

Have a scenario that shows this? Does more stay in our economy than is paid to the asians to make products?

So you argument then is we should make hiring offshores illegal.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yeah, what I posted in the first place, and everything else has been responses to you?

dunno--is it?

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: Immigration Quotas were in place for a reason - who was the genius that got rid of them?

It started back in 1957 (Ike, R) and picked up speed with "I will not seek, nor will I accept, the nomination" Lyndon Johnson (D-TX).
http://www.cis.org/articles/1995/back395.html

quote The liberalization of immigration policy reflected in the 1965 legislation can be understood as part of the evolutionary trend in federal policy after World War II to end legal discrimination based on race and ethnicity — essentially, the immigration bill was mainly seen as an extension of the civil rights movement, and a symbolic one at that, expected to bring few changes in its wake. In 1957, Congress passed the first civil rights law since Reconstruction, another in 1960, and two important bills in 1964 and 1965. Moreover, Supreme Court decisions and state and local laws also struck at the remnants of legal racism. The immigration bill was merely another step in this process.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 06-30-2009).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Source, please. Without a credible source, your latest screed may be true, or it may be You should know that by now.

Got a source to disprove it--or has innocent until proven guilty gone out the window?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Have a scenario that shows this? Does more stay in our economy than is paid to the asians to make products? So you argument then is we should make hiring offshores illegal.

no, I am fine with non-us citizens
I just wish asians were included, not just the locals non citizens.
I find it foolish to be all riled up about the illegals, when its the asians which are sinking us
but - yes - cut em all out!

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Got a source to disprove it--or has innocent until proven guilty gone out the window?

Shame on you, Don.
If I posted anything off the wall like that without citing a source, you guys would crucify me, and you know it.
And rightly so!
Why does Avengador1 get a pass everytime, EVERYTIME HE posts made up crap?
Because he's a con?

I thought so.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 06-30-2009).]

anyways - Joe Legal is a dumbass, eh?
why does Joe Legal not just do what Joe Illegal does?
it is quite clearly the better path to follow.
and, dont have to worry about being deported.
why cant anyone do this?

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Source, please. Without a credible source, your latest screed may be true, or it may be You should know that by now.

on your post. Why don't you spend the time digging for sources that dispute his claim?

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE:

Goes back before LBJ declined to run for his 2nd term. JFK wanted to at least double the quota. Many congressmen and senators were in favor of scrapping the quota system a long time before Nixon. Ike, Truman, JFK--all were in favor of liberalizing or doing away with the quota system altogether.

The connection between civil rights legislation and abolishing the national origins quotas was explicit. As Rep. Philip Burton (D-CA) said in Congress:


"Just as we sought to eliminate discrimination in our land through the Civil Rights Act, today we seek by phasing out the national origins quota system to eliminate discrimination in immigration to this nation composed of the descendants of immigrants." (Congressional Record, Aug. 25, 1965, p. 21783.)


And Rep. Robert Sweeney (D-OH) said:


"Mr. Chairman, I would consider the amendments to the Immigration and Nationality Act to be as important as the landmark legislation of this Congress relating to the Civil Rights Act. The central purpose of the administration's immigration bill is to once again undo discrimination and to revise the standards by which we choose potential Americans in order to be fairer to them and which will certainly be more beneficial to us." (Congressional Record, Aug. 25, 1965, p. 21765.)


Other politicians also thought the immigration law needed to be changed. Much earlier, President Truman, in the message accompanying his (unsuccessful) veto of the 1952 McCarran-Walter Act (which had maintained the national origins quota system), wrote:


"These are only a few examples of the absurdity, the cruelty of carrying over into this year of 1952 the isolationist limitations of our 1924 law. In no other realm of our national life are we so hampered and stultified by the dead hand of the past, as we are in this field of immigration." (Truman, Harry S., Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States. U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1961, pp. 443-444.)


In 1960, President Dwight D. Eisenhower declared to Congress:


"I again urge the liberalization of some of our restrictions upon immigration...we should double the 154,000 quota immigrants ... we should make special provisions for the absorption of many thousands of persons who are refugees." (Eisenhower, Dwight D., Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1961, pp. 308-310.)


President John F. Kennedy's immigration message to Congress on July 23, 1963, assailed the national origins quota system as having "no basis in either logic or reason." He complained,


"It neither satisfies a national need nor accomplishes an international purpose. In an age of interdependence among nations, such a system is an anachronism for it discriminates among applicants for admission into the United States on the basis of the accident of birth." (Kennedy, John F., Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1964, pp. 594-597.)

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: on your post. Why don't you spend the time digging for sources that dispute his claim?

Why won't he admit that its a copy of a MADE UP chain letter with BS numbers?
Its his job to support his post with facts.
Not my job to prove a negative.
We've been through this before.
If he can't support it with FACTS, then it has to be taken as
I'm calling you out again, Avengador1.

Put up, or shut up, sir.
http://search.atomz.com/sea...m=1&sp-s=0&x=32&y=13

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 06-30-2009).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Shame on you, Don. If I posted anything off the wall like that without citing a source, you guys would crucify me, and you know it. And rightly so! Why does Avengador1 get a pass everytime, EVERYTIME HE posts made up crap? Because he's a con? I thought so.

I can only speak for myself--I rarely if ever ask anyone for documentation/source, or attribution--including asking you for one. I'm perfectly able, even on dialup, of looking for sources and proof myself if I am that interested.

It's obvious to almost anyone, that Avengador's post is an opinon or editorial, and as such, has room for both debate and study. It just works both ways--prove and disprove. It has to be that way--a 2 way street.

http://www.cis.org/articles...indings.html#Balance

It must be remembered that tax payments in the table are based on the assumption that only 55 percent of illegals pay payroll taxes, comprised of income tax, Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance. If all of their income were subjected to taxation, illegals' tax payments would rise significantly. Of course, if they paid all of their payroll tax liability, this would imply that they have legal status, which would also dramatically increase use of public services. This issue will be discussed later in this report.

Excise and Other Taxes. For excise and estate taxes, which are the most regressive, illegals pay 55 percent as much as other tax payers. In Table 2, estate and excise taxes are grouped together. Because illegals are very young on average, they pay very little in estate taxes. If only excise taxes are considered, the average tax payment of illegal households is 69 percent that of all households. Thus, there are significant differences in the relative size of payments illegals make to the various programs. The more regressive the tax, the closer the relative payments of illegal households are to the rest of the population. While the tax payments made by illegal aliens are much smaller on average than those of other households, illegals still do pay billions of dollars in taxes to Washington. In 2002, illegal households paid a total of nearly $16 billion to the federal government. The far right column in Table 2 shows that illegal alien tax payments constitute about 0.9 percent of all taxes collected. Because persons in illegal households constitute 3.6 percent of the nation's total population, their tax payments are clearly less than their representation in the population as a whole. This fact by itself does not mean that they create a fiscal deficit, because the net effect of illegal households on public coffers also depends on their use of public services, which is discussed below.

Costs by Household
Social Security and Medicare. The lower half of Table 2 reports the estimated costs illegals impose on public coffers. The table shows that, in general, illegal households use much less in almost every type of service. In the case of Social Security and Medicare, illegal households use about one-twentieth as much as other households. And they account for less than two-tenths of 1 percent of the total cost of these very large programs. Moreover, it is also clear that illegals pay substantially more in Social Security and Medicare than they use, creating a net benefit for these two programs of over $1,800 a year per illegal alien household. This calculation actually understates the benefit illegals create for the trust funds of these two programs because Table 2 includes costs for Medicare part B, which is paid for by general funds. If only Medicare part A (the part of Medicare covered by the trust fund) and Social Security are considered, illegal households create a net benefit well in excess of $7 billion dollars a year for the trust funds of these two programs.

Welfare Programs. Table 2 shows that illegal households receive much less in cash assistance welfare programs. As already discussed, persons in illegal households comprise 3.6 percent of the total population, but their use of cash welfare accounts for 0.3 percent of costs for these programs. For food assistance programs, however, illegal households actually receive more of this type of program than non-illegal households, accounting for 5.6 percent of federal costs for these programs. This is mainly due to heavy use of the WIC and school lunch programs. For Medicaid, illegals receive less than other households, but their use of this very expensive program is still significant. It's worth noting that although Table 1 showed a larger share of illegal households using Medicaid, figures in Table 2 show that on average they receive a lower payment. This mainly reflects the fact that it is typically only the U.S.-born children in the illegal households who are on Medicaid, while in other households with low incomes both parents and children can qualify for the program. Table 2 also shows that illegal use is much lower for all other welfare programs. But the table still shows that illegal households do use these programs to some extent.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-30-2009).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Why won't he admit that its a copy of a MADE UP chain letter with BS numbers? Its his job to support his post with facts. Not my job to prove a negative. We've been through this before. If he can't support it with FACTS, then it has to be taken as I'm calling you out again, Avengador1. Put up, or shut up, sir. http://search.atomz.com/sea...m=1&sp-s=0&x=32&y=13

What specifically was disproven?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: anyways - Joe Legal is a dumbass, eh? why does Joe Legal not just do what Joe Illegal does? it is quite clearly the better path to follow. and, dont have to worry about being deported. why cant anyone do this?

Because Joe Legal is probably a caucasion male, 2 strikes against him, and he has moral standards that don't let him just ride the system if he could, strike 3. He, a legal citizen will find it nearly impossible to get any help from the gov. I have been soo tempted to change my name to Jose Martinez and see if I can get on the dole.

The darkest hour,
never comes at night. Joe

[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 06-30-2009).]

Yes, this is another one of those emails that is going around, take it as you will. If it ruffles your feathers then your skin is too thin.
The truth of the matter is that most illegals have fake identities and fake social security cards. They have taxes deducted from their paychecks and can't collect any refunds owed on them. They also have social security deducted from their paychecks, but will never be able to collect this money. They have all the normal deductions a normal citizen would have, but they cannot really reap any of the benefits from these deductions, because they technically do not really exist.
The problem is that no one else can collect on these monies being gathered. The only one who benefits from this is the government. The only way illegals would benefit is if they have no deductions from their paychecks. They could do this by claiming a huge amount of dependants, or by working under the table. The social security administration usually catches up with them, eventually, and they flee. We had this happen to our company a couple of times. There is no way for a small business to tell fake documents apart from real ones, as they are identical. If an employer is found paying for his labor under the table, the fines can be huge and will include jail time.
Many states have been cracking down on illegals and the high unemployment rates has them looking for work elsewhere. Most are simply bypassing the US to go into Canada now.
The new government rules, that are in the pipeline, would grant legal status to all the illegals and even reward them monetarily. This would also move all the people who are following the legal procedures, to enter our country and work, to the back of the line and increase their waiting time by years. Is this fair? Why should the illegals be rewarded for doing things illegally?

The last part of the email is true.

quote If you don't want illegals here, don't vote OR support any politician that supports illegal aliens... Make it a point to know how your representative votes, State and Federal.

If people are just willing to let government tell us what to do, that is what they will do. If you don't tell you representatives how you feel on the issues, don't expect them to pass laws in your favor.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 06-30-2009).]

Yes.
Thank you for bringing up the fake social security number point.
While I think something needs to be done about illegal immigration, especially since LEGAL immigration is easier than it was back in the fictional "good old days" of the 1950s, I also don't like BS presented as facts.
And this isn't a question that has an answer as simple minded as "build a tall wall".
Thats just stupid.

Hypothetical situation:
Jose Illegal uses a fake Social Security number to get a job with Billy Bobs Construction and Demolition co. as a laborer.
When he gets his check at the end of the week, he takes it to the local market, where they cash it FOR A FEE.
He buys food at inflated prices at the same market, because he isn't welcome at Safeway.
This contributes to the local economy.
He sees numbers on the check, but he doesn't understand them, because he's just a dumb illegal Messican.
Here are the (hypothetical) numbers, taken from real, actual tax tables:
WAGES: $209.00
DEDUCTIONS:
FIC (Income tax) $.07
Medicare: $3.03
Social Security: 12.96
Net pay $192.94, minus the check cashing fee.

Jose used a fake social security number, so he will never be able to file for a tax refund.
He will never qualify for Medicare.
He will never collect social security.
He cannot collect unemployment insurance.
All that money goes into the 'general fund.'
All that tax money that we all pay, albeit grudgingly, will do at least something for us, someday.
Jose Illegal just paid his money for the privilege of hauling our trash.

If he picks tomatoes in Florida for 10 hours a day, six days a week, he gets paid $0.40 per bucket, about $7500.00 per year.
How many Legal Joes are clamoring for that job?
When employers stop hiring illegals, they'll stop coming.
But its gonna cost us a lot of money.
Way more than a useless wall.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 06-30-2009).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Jose used a fake social security number, so he will never be able to file for a tax refund. .

Or pay in if he owes right?

2.5 you're not getting it. Social Security is deducted from the paycheck, like it or not, and ends up in a general fund if a false number used. It is taken out regardless, there is no choice not to pay it, unless you get paid under the table. The only time I have heard of someone owing money to Social Security is when they stated collecting early by mistake. The money they collected had to be paid back.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 06-30-2009).]

Fiction, probably, is it true? I think the point is pretty good regardless.

How about if we ask if anybody here thinks illegal aliens are a good thing for the country.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: 2.5 you're not getting it. Social Security is deducted from the paycheck, like it or not, and ends up in a general fund if a false number used. It is taken out regardless, there is no choice not to pay it, unless you get paid under the table. The only time I have heard of someone owing money to Social Security is when they stated collecting early by mistake. The money they collected had to be paid back.

I was referring to income taxes.
Tax refund only happens if your employer withheld too much, many people owe at the end of the year.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Fiction, probably, is it true? I think the point is pretty good regardless. How about if we ask if anybody here thinks illegal aliens are a good thing for the country.

no illegal aliens are not good for the country.
for any buoracracy to work, it must have valid data. and, with undocumented people - there is no valid data.
then there are the issues of the simple fact that many are poor.
there are a few "good" things also. they will do jobs many of us find "beneath us" - which is why they come.

and, again - the opening post BS - ALL them same things are available to EVERYONE. YOU can do that too.
but, people dont. why? because it aint no picnic. in fact - it SUCKS.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: anyways - Joe Legal is a dumbass, eh? why does Joe Legal not just do what Joe Illegal does? it is quite clearly the better path to follow. and, dont have to worry about being deported. why cant anyone do this?

Because then Joe Legal goes to jail for tax evasion.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Because then Joe Legal goes to jail for tax evasion.

and Jose Illegal? what happens to him when caught?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Got a source to disprove it--or has innocent until proven guilty gone out the window?

?

George Bush wears a pink tutu to breakfast. I know you don't have a source to disprove it, so it has to be true!

You know, it would be interesting...... really, really interesting....... if someone did an experiment.

I'm kind of looking at avengador right now... basically what you do is this... drop off the grid. Become an "illegal immigrant" for a year. According to the math above you should do alright. You'll have a free home and healthcare and all that anyways...

But I doubt you'd find a job that pays $5 an hour. Why would any company take a chance at paying more than minimum wage when they can hire *legal* workers for that price? There has to be some savings incentive otherwise it's not worth the risk.

P.S. - Joe Mama wears army boots.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 06-30-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and Jose Illegal? what happens to him when caught?

Depends on where he's caught. In CA (when my mom's buddy was a Border Patrol Supervisor, anyway) they rarely were allowed to deport anymore. It was a "catch and release". Get their name (and *assume* they were being truthful), run it though NCIC and all that, then if they're not flagged as violent, you let them go. No jail, no fine, certainly no deportation, just "run along, amigo"...

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 06-30-2009).]

How does 30% from 52,000 equal 31,231?? I figure it as 36,400. Also $1000 per month for minimal health insurance!? Who pays that much? And why does Joe's rent cost twice as much as Jose's?

Not taking sides either way, but I would like to see some fair comparisons.