That didn't happen to a US soldier. Likely, a carpet bombing would have ensued if it had. If it did, I'd want to see the blood of the bastard that did it. The same thing DID, however, happen to people per the orders of the US government. I'm not saying these people that were waterboarded were good guys. Insofar as I know, they were rotten people who wanted to kill Americans - then, they could have been some kid that joined up to fight because his older brothers made the **** sound so cool. I dunno. Torture is torture.

If it sounds like torture when they do it to one of our guys, then it's torture when we do it to one of theirs.

Or, out of curiosity, would you be OK with Al Qaeda doing this to captured US soldiers? (as in - this is NOT a punishable offense for which retaliation would be allowed)

A prisoner at Gitmo was held on TV and had his throat slit, broadcast for the world to see. Wait, no, that didn't happen to one of them... it happens to regular civilians, reporters, and military.

Good Guys, Bad Guys, it's all in your perspective. I'm pretty sure that Osama Bin Laden thinks of himself as one of the good guys.

Ron

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/064755.html

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: Or, out of curiosity, would you be OK with Al Qaeda doing this to captured US soldiers? (as in - this is NOT a punishable offense for which retaliation would be allowed)

Beats the hell out of the other options that OBL folks have been doing. If this is my choice, I'll take door # 3 with the waterboarding versus doors 1 & 2 that involve mutilation and worse.

Ron

Daniel Pearl said he was okay with waterboarding. It was when they chopped his head off is when he thought it went to far. Real torture was reading your naive first post.

Jim

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: If it sounds like torture when they do it to one of our guys, then it's torture when we do it to one of theirs. Or, out of curiosity, would you be OK with Al Qaeda doing this to captured US soldiers? (as in - this is NOT a punishable offense for which retaliation would be allowed)

From what I've seen posted here, a lot of members wouldn't care if they nuked that whole area killing everyone. They must have some grasp on human life for "torture" to mean anything, most of them don't. You are fightin' a lost cause

It did happen to a US soldier!
“Tens of thousands of American Air Force and naval airmen were waterboarded as part of their survival training.”

------------------
Dealing with failure is easy: work hard to improve. Success is also easy to handle: you've solved the wrong problem, work hard to improve.

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: Or, out of curiosity, would you be OK with Al Qaeda doing this to captured US soldiers? (as in - this is NOT a punishable offense for which retaliation would be allowed)

As opposed to having his or her head cut off with a dull knife while the killing is being recorded for propaganda purposes?

Article 4 of the third Geneva convention defines who is a prisoner of war:

quote * 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces * 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions: o that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; o that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I); o that of carrying arms openly; o that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. * 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. * 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support. * 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law. * 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. * 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.

Taken from wikipedia.
Which one does Al-Qaeda fall under?

quote Originally posted by IEatRice: From what I've seen posted here, a lot of members wouldn't care if they nuked that whole area killing everyone. They must have some grasp on human life for "torture" to mean anything, most of them don't. You are fightin' a lost cause

agreed

Where does the line begin and end that makes it torture? Isn't THAT the real question?

For some people, being locked in a room and forced to listen to country and western yodeling music is torture (raising hand here), but that doesn't make it torture, does it? So at some point we have to offer where we believe that line is.

I don't think being locked in solitary confinement is torture. I honestly don't think being waterboarded is torture. I don't even think being slapped is torture, if it was my parents would be on trial for crimes against humanity.

In my mind, torture is doing things that will physically or mentally permanently damage or disable the most people being questioned. Waterboarding won't do that to most people. Being handled "roughly" won't do that. Pulling out fingernails will do that. Some psychological tortures will do that, but I didn't see any of the items listed on the "memos" that would permanently damage or disable most people, particularly considering there was always a medical doctor present at the questioning.

Certainly I know this is a pretty broad brush because I can think of exceptions to this. For instance, electrical shock, but there are going to be exceptions to everything. I can assure you that for most people, I can tie you in a chair, hit you repeatedly with a cattle prod, and at some point you'll tell me what I want to know with no permanent physical damage or disability, yet I do consider that torture due to the extreme nature of the activity. (If you've never been hit by a cattle prod, let me assure you it is NOT pleasant and I'd take waterboarding over that anytime)

In Jeremiah's example, nobody would be carpet bombed for that. If you think they would you're being naive. Given Al Quaeda's other forms of torture, I'd personally be glad to be let off that easy considering what the alternatives might be that could be in store for me.

John Stricker

Been hit with a cattle prod before, yeah, I yodel'd for a while and it wasn't pretty.

Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Been hit with a cattle prod before, yeah, I yodel'd for a while and it wasn't pretty. Ron

Was in a feed store in my younger teen years... There was a cattle prod on the shelf. I thought "I wonder what it feels like". Stuck my finger on the end and hit the button. What do you know, they actually had it charged, or batteries in it. Wasn't pleasant at all LOL.

As to the topic at hand. Considering there treatment of Americans, you expect a informed person with a memory of what they have done and continue to do to be seriously upset about some water in the nostrils?

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 04-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by IEatRice: From what I've seen posted here, a lot of members wouldn't care if they nuked that whole area killing everyone. They must have some grasp on human life for "torture" to mean anything, most of them don't. You are fightin' a lost cause

I think you're taking that a bit literal. I don't think too many here *really* believe we should just turn the whole place into a glass parking lot. But maybe you don't feel the same frustration as some of us. Probably a lot of us who feel it are former military, and in general, our training is to do what it takes to get the job done. Maybe that's what you don't understand about our mentality. That's not to say any of us would walk into a village and kill all the innocents in order to accomplish the mission, certainly we would exercise sufficient discretion in order to keep innocent casualties to a minimum. Unfortunately, any time you have a firefight, someone uninvolved is likely to get hurt. That's *our* approach. The other side however, couldn't care less, we're ALL targets to them. You have GOT to understand that if they had our military capabilities, they absolutely WOULD turn our country into a parking lot. try to imagine that. Ask your grandparents or your parents how they felt during the Cuban missile crisis or during the cold war. I doubt you're even old enough to remember that. That wasn't even a real war, it was merely political tensions with a country that easily had our military and NUCLEAR strength. You don't live in a time when BOMB SHELTERS were actually being sold and built. I doubt you can even imagine what it's like to live where the possibility of an actual WAR on your own land is a very real possibility. So try for one brief second to imagine what it's like to live in fear of something other than whether you'll miss American Idol. If you can do that, then maybe it becomes a bit clearer as to why some of us are OK with doing what it takes to get our answers. I *know* it's possible that we could potentially "torture" someone who really doesn't know anything or may not be involved. Believe me, I *AM* sympathetic to that person. But for us to not carry out a highly effective method of intelligence gathering on the OUTSIDE CHANCE that we MIGHT get someone who is innocent is absurd.
I wonder, HAVE we ever interrogated someone who wasn't involved? I bet not, because if we had, that would be front page news....makes me think our people are pretty careful in who they select for those methods.

Anyway, my point is that my frustration (and some others I'm sure) comes from seeing that we're getting picked apart by these guys who aren't playing by any rules. Yet here we are being bound by a bunch of pantywaists who have no real clue what we're up against. They are a bunch of armchair quarterbacks who think that by playing by some illogical "rules" that it somehow makes us better than the other guys. That's great, we can be better than them, maybe when they're done hacking us apart they'll note our moral superiority on a sign hanging over what will be left of our country.

During war, the bad guys set the rules. If they bomb cities and kill civilians, the good guys bomb cities and kill civilians. (WWII bombings of London by the Nazis and bombing of German cities by the Allies).

Based on that, and the actions of our enemies, waterboarding is pretty tame.

Unless you just don't want to win this thing.

You wouldn't take a knife to a gun fight, would you?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Where does the line begin and end that makes it torture? Isn't THAT the real question?

One of them. Another would be "am I trying to get your chili recipe?" or, "am I trying to find out where my daughter is being held captive?"

Looks like the liberals have things bassackwards, as usual. Big surprise.

quote Originally posted by IEatRice: From what I've seen posted here, a lot of members wouldn't care if they nuked that whole area killing everyone. They must have some grasp on human life for "torture" to mean anything, most of them don't. You are fightin' a lost cause

Totally disagree. There have been comments about turning the area into a glass parking lot. Yep. A LOT? Come on.

What your comment really attempts to do is portray an inabililty to have a reasoned discussion on this topic. And it is wrong.


Jeremiah TRIED to portray a scenario that would get a reaction that ELIMINATED the bias of having it happen to someone you hate instead of someone you would defend. Really, ultimately trying to portray US behavior as inhumane and indefensible.

All he really did was focus the humanity/inhumanity of waterboarding as compared to behavior of aa savage band of people (and no, not all muslims and not all arabs are savage. So don't even start because I never said that) instead of comparing to the behavior of the average person working in a research lab in Indiana.


I would HATE being waterboarded compared to sitting in a research lab in Indiana.
I would LOVE being waterboarded compared to having my throat slit with a blade until my head was completely removed.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: <snip> I would LOVE being waterboarded compared to having my throat slit with a blade until my head was completely removed.

This is even a mild portrayal of what happens. They don't use a razor sharp blade to do this. The fact is that they essentially saw the head off , ripping skin and muscle and bone because the blade just isn't that sharp. At least the Japanese used Samurai swords and severed the head in one quick motion. And we considered them barbarians and dropped two nukes on 'em.

I wonder if that illustrates a more accurate picture for those who think *we're* inhumane for "waterboarding". This whole thing makes me want to puke.

quote Originally posted by Khw: Was in a feed store in my younger teen years... There was a cattle prod on the shelf. I thought "I wonder what it feels like". Stuck my finger on the end and hit the button. What do you know, they actually had it charged, or batteries in it. Wasn't pleasant at all LOL. As to the topic at hand. Considering there treatment of Americans, you expect a informed person with a memory of what they have done and continue to do to be seriously upset about some water in the nostrils?

LEOs have to get tazed at least once if they are going to carry a tazer.. ( or at least used to )

some call getting hit with a tazer as torture..

Everything is relative. As John Stricker pointed out, it all depends on where you draw the line.

No one in their right mind would volunteer to be harassed or tortured. But, I assure you, if it was a forced choice, harassment would always win hands down. As I said in a previous post, I'm sure our enemies will be forthright and volunteer everything we would like to know about their planned operations. Cause, we're the good guys. I'm sure they see themselves as "badguys".

I'm also not suggesting that we should do as "they" do because they do it, I'm simply saying that nothing our "good guys" did to extract information caused any permanent physical damage. I see no problem with what they did. Given that if any one of us was captured, taken prisoner and interrogated, I am pretty well convinced that we'd request waterboarding over their form of interrogation. And no, I'm still not volunteering for any type of interrogation, would you, I doubt it.

Edited: Well shoot, it would appear that my position has cost me a rating, not sure if that was a good rating or a bad rating, regardless, that's how I feel. Probably won't run for President in the next election, doubt I can afford to run.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: This is even a mild portrayal of what happens. They don't use a razor sharp blade to do this. The fact is that they essentially saw the head off , ripping skin and muscle and bone because the blade just isn't that sharp. At least the Japanese used Samurai swords and severed the head in one quick motion. And we considered them barbarians and dropped two nukes on 'em. I wonder if that illustrates a more accurate picture for those who think *we're* inhumane for "waterboarding". This whole thing makes me want to puke.

Nope, I'd expect the liberals to just turn their heads, put their fingers in their ears and say "lalalalalala" in the face of another inconvenient truth.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: snip

I see a lot of the "If they had it they would do it" attitude. Like it's some kind of excuse that you only wish to apply to ONE group of people.

Part of being the "better" person is playing by the rules. It's why police have limits. It's why government has limits. It's why our military has limits. Sure everything would be easier if no one had to play by the rules, but then what do you have?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I would HATE being waterboarded compared to sitting in a research lab in Indiana. I would LOVE being waterboarded compared to having my throat slit with a blade until my head was completely removed.

Talk to someone that has been tortured. 99% of the affect of torture is mental, not physical. Mental scares that haunt them horribly for the rest of their life, PST is REAL. But when they come home it's "Thank God they're alive." Ha... yeah right. I would rather have my throat slit than suffer the rest of my life.

[This message has been edited by IEatRice (edited 04-22-2009).]

Sigh.
So alone in refusing to let evil to beget evil.

My Father killed lots of men ( but not only) in Korea.
He spoke of some nasty things he saw both sides do.
He didn't like it, but they all did what they had to do to get the job done.
It did not scar him and we did not look like bad guys in the History books we wrote.
Fine.

If only obeying the rules when the other guy does is how it works, fine.
If picking & choosing what you want from the Bible when it suits you, is how it works, that's fine.
If ignoring the difference between right & wrong to get what you want is how it works, then fine.

If using the same tactics our enemies do & lieing about it to our own people, to "get the win", so that this country can survive to lecture other countries on human rights, I think everything will be just fine.

See, I don't cheat on my Wife.
And I won't.
Reguardless of what other guys are doing.
Why?
Not becouse of popular belief, or excuses, or acceptence.
And not becouse of God.
I don't do it becouse it is WRONG, in my HEART, no matter WHO is doing it, or for what reason.

I guess that's where I stand.
Somehow, without being taught, and fully aware of the horrors the other side does, In my heart I just know it's wrong, no matter who does it.
I guess I just think we are better then that.

A final thought: When you see the other side doing horrorable things, does it disgust you?
What are your thoughts after that?
Hatred?
Revenge?
Sadness?
Forgiveness?
What does that Bible everyone waves around all the time say about these things?
Or does that book only apply to certain men and certain situations, of your own choosing?

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-22-2009).]

quote Topic: US soldier had rag forced down throat and water poured up nostrils 6 times a day

1. A rag is not forced down the throat during water boarding. It is placed over the head. Then water is poured over the rag.

2. This does happen to US soldiers every day as a part of SERE training.

3. It is not torture.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Daniel Pearl said he was okay with waterboarding. It was when they chopped his head off is when he thought it went to far. Real torture was reading your naive first post. Jim

And Daniel Pearl had time to think about it because they didn't cleanly chop off his head in one stroke. They hacked at it, repeatedly while he screamed until his throat was cut and then he continued to make desparate gargling sounds as blood poured into his lungs and down his now open throat until they finally severed his head from his body.

I don't approve of water boarding, but we need to keep the type of people and tactics we're dealing with in perspective.
Giving them flowers and a latte and asking nicely probably won't get results. You have to draw the line somewhere, and that's not an easy line to draw.

Imagine the world's reaction if one of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were beheaded on camera instead of being forced to stand naked with women's underwear on his head.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I don't approve of water boarding, but we need to keep the type of people and tactics we're dealing with in perspective.

THAT is where the debate starts. You want to define what "type" of person they are while forgetting they are still a person. You claim superiority when you talk like that.

quote Originally posted by IEatRice: THAT is where the debate starts. You want to define what "type" of person they are while forgetting they are still a person. You claim superiority when you talk like that.

Not at all. You have to understand the mindset of your enemy and what lengths they are willing to go to in order to win.
It's not about superiority or dehumanizing them. It's about quantifying the threat.

Please show me where I "claim" superiority. Your remarks demonstrate your ignorance.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Sigh. So alone in refusing to let evil to beget evil. My Father killed lots of men ( but not only) in Korea. He spoke of some nasty things he saw both sides do. He didn't like it, but they all did what they had to do to get the job done. It did not scar him and we did not look like bad guys in the History books we wrote. Fine. If only obeying the rules when the other guy does is how it works, fine. If picking & choosing what you want from the Bible when it suits you, is how it works, that's fine. If ignoring the difference between right & wrong to get what you want is how it works, then fine. If using the same tactics our enemies do & lieing about it to our own people, to "get the win", so that this country can survive to lecture other countries on human rights, I think everything will be just fine. See, I don't cheat on my Wife. And I won't. Reguardless of what other guys are doing. Why? Not becouse of popular belief, or excuses, or acceptence. And not becouse of God. I don't do it becouse it is WRONG, in my HEART, no matter WHO is doing it, or for what reason. I guess that's where I stand. Somehow, without being taught, and fully aware of the horrors the other side does, In my heart I just know it's wrong, no matter who does it. I guess I just think we are better then that.

Boonie,

Again your pacifist nature shines through and, again, this is not a bad thing.

You are failing to make a distinction, though. There are prisoners that are taken during war that really have no useful information to give and should never be subjected to interrogation. By your post, I don't see you making that distinction.

There are others, however, that may hold information that can SAVE OTHER LIVES, both civilian and military lives, that we need to get information from. It is those people which I am talking about. I am talking about interrogation techniques, not needless cruelty. In my mind at least, there is a difference.

The memos that were released are extremely biased in that they only address the techniques used. Memos that were NOT released detail the information we obtained with the techniques and the lives that were saved. I wonder why THAT was? I'll let you figure that one out.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: A final thought: When you see the other side doing horrorable things, does it disgust you? What are your thoughts after that? Hatred? Revenge? Sadness? Forgiveness? What does that Bible everyone waves around all the time say about these things? Or does that book only apply to certain men and certain situations, of your own choosing?

Good questions all and I'm more than happy to answer them.

Yes, horrible things disgust me. It disgusts me even though I realize they may be necessary. I wish we could all join hands and sing "cumbaya", but that's just not in the cards at the moment.

What are my thoughts after seeing it?

Hatred? No, not really. Not towards the person, if we're talking about the techniques outlined in the memos.

Revenge? No. A useless emotion that does nobody any good.

Sadness? Yes, most definitely. That such things become necessary at all makes me extremely sad.

Forgiveness? Towards whom? The interrogators? Depends, I guess. Eventually use, there's not much I can't forgive from a penitent soul in my heart, but after seeing someone behead another, it would take a heck of a long time.

What does that Bible everyone waves around all the time say about these things?
Or does that book only apply to certain men and certain situations, of your own choosing?

If you're really interested, you could look it up for yourself. Just so you know, there is a world of difference in what the Old Testament and the New Testament have to say about things but be sure you read Revelations in how the final battles will be played out. It makes us look like slackers.

John Stricker

one of the problems here is we are NOT at war. there are NO prisoners of war.
"the war" has been over for quite sometime. USA won.

what we have right now is military engagement & police action

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: 2. This does happen to US soldiers every day as a part of SERE training.

From our previous discussion, you know that's not true.
By our own governments admission, the technique was altered when used on combatants.

And the US soldiers in SERE training KNEW they weren't going to be hurt or DIE.
That's like simulating rape by dry-humping a willing partiapant.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: 3. It is not torture.

From our previous discussion, you know that's not true.
Waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II.
If it is wrong when others use it, then it is wrong when we use it.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II.

Link please? I haven't heard that.

John Stricker

Edited to add the following:

I did some looking while I'm sitting here waiting for a phone call. Almost all of the links on prosecutions come up to just one, those of the capture and interrogation of Capt Chase Nielsen and interrogated by the Japanese. Note that in this case, the Japanese General was aquitted, but it says that other Japanese soldiers did go to prison for waterboarding, although it doesn't give any specifics.

I'd like any other information anyone can come up with.

quote MARCO WERMAN: The United States has some history of prosecuting cases of water-boarding, but from a different perspective, that of the victim. In World War Two, American prisoners of the Japanese were subjected to the infamous "water torture." One prisoner was an aviator, Captain Chase Nielsen. He was captured after a daring raid on Japan soon after the attack on Pearl Harbor. After the war, Captain Nielsen gave a graphic description of water boarding at the war crimes trial of Japanese General Shigeru Sawada in 1946. "I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death," Nielsen told the court. Sawada was ultimately acquitted of responsibility in that case. But other Japanese soldiers did go to prison for water-boarding. One military police sergeant got a life sentence for torturing Philippine civilians, chiefly by water-boarding. Captain Nielsen died in 2007 at the age of 90. The year before his death, he said he hoped men and women in the service today will live "their lives in accordance with the military rules and laws of war.”

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 04-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: That didn't happen to a US soldier. Likely, a carpet bombing would have ensued if it had. If it did, I'd want to see the blood of the bastard that did it. The same thing DID, however, happen to people per the orders of the US government. I'm not saying these people that were waterboarded were good guys. Insofar as I know, they were rotten people who wanted to kill Americans - then, they could have been some kid that joined up to fight because his older brothers made the **** sound so cool. I dunno. Torture is torture. If it sounds like torture when they do it to one of our guys, then it's torture when we do it to one of theirs. Or, out of curiosity, would you be OK with Al Qaeda doing this to captured US soldiers? (as in - this is NOT a punishable offense for which retaliation would be allowed)

I've got to ask you, and I want you to be honest... did you only start caring when it became an issue with Amnesty International? Seriously... did you even care, or have any concern whatsoever before it became a "supposed" issue that they wanted to use for campaign purposes?


Do I think it's ok to do it to our soldiers? No, I think anything done to our soldiers is bad. Anything short of a room at the Four Seasons with a bottle of scotch and a clean prostitute is cruel.

BUT, I think it's an acceptable form of information gathering. I don't know what YOU think is normal, but this is how WE get information. This information helps prevent further and future attacks. We hear constantly (at least we used to until the media started to consider it unimportant) that we would be attacked soon... they've been saying that almost every year since 9/11. Has it happened? No...

Does that mean it'll never happen again? Not really, but there's a pretty good possibility that we haven't been attacked because of the information we've gathered this way.


I am really tired of our country being the ONLY one that abides by the Geneva convention. I can't think of a single adversary that we've fought in the past ~232 years of our country where the other side(s) have treated us the same as we did to them?

If during the Vietnam war, the North Viet-kong had treated our POWs like that... we probably wouldn't need a 246 foot long wall. No... more likely, it would be MUCH MUCH shorter.


The ONLY reason why this is an issue (really) is becuase Democrats are using it and HAVE used it as a means of trying to make Republican's look bad in order to further their own goals.

Do you guys think that Amnesty International and the ACLU get most of their donations from concerned "progressive" Americans? Think again...


When was the last time you saw Amnesty Now / International try to protect an American stuck in another country???


Exactly...


You are a pawn...

------------------
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convt. (Wife's)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1981 EZ-GO Xi875-A "Miami Dolphins" Medical Cart
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
1973 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 350

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: And the US soldiers in SERE training KNEW they weren't going to be hurt or DIE. That's like simulating rape by dry-humping a willing partiapant.

Does that mean dry-huming an unwilling participant is the same as an actual rape? Because the method we use in training are the same as the ones used in interrogation. The only difference is one is a willing subject and the other isn't.

Your post suggests a vastly different method between "dry-humping" and "rape."

quote Originally posted by IEatRice: I see a lot of the "If they had it they would do it" attitude. Like it's some kind of excuse that you only wish to apply to ONE group of people. Part of being the "better" person is playing by the rules. It's why police have limits. It's why government has limits. It's why our military has limits. Sure everything would be easier if no one had to play by the rules, but then what do you have?.

Dude, c'mon. Are you kidding me? Do you mean to tell me that if some guy walks up to you and sucker-punches you in the head you aren't going to use whatever tactics you have available to win that fight? Or are you going to stick to some moral code while he bashes your head in with a 2x4 because you somehow think doing so makes you better than him? Good plan, we'll note YOUR moral superiority on your gravestone.

Got newz for ya bubba, I don't want to be morally superior, I want to win.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: And the US soldiers in SERE training KNEW they weren't going to be hurt or DIE.

And a terrorist doesn't????????????? With so many folks like you trotting out to protect them from folks like me, I'm sure they're feeling pretty safe about now.

You guys just don't get it. Being RIGHT doesn't mean SH!T if your DEAD!

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Because the method we use in training are the same as the ones used in interrogation.

The report shows that is not true.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: The report shows that is not true.

------------------
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convt. (Wife's)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1981 EZ-GO Xi875-A "Miami Dolphins" Medical Cart
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
1973 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 350

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 09-24-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: With so many folks like you trotting out to protect them from folks like me, I'm sure they're feeling pretty safe about now.

Nice try.

Really? You (And Rice and select others) aren't trying to protect them from specific actions? Draw the line for me then....