While planning my Ecotec swap, I got to thinking about the other two-seater cars out there. The most similar car to what I plan in the end would be the Opel Speedster/Vauxhall VX220.

The Speedster came with a 2.2L Ecotec motor and Getrag F23 transmission, the same as a Chevy Cavalier or Cobalt. Production ended in 2005.

The Pontiac Solstice eventually replaced the Speedster in that category of car, rebadged as the Opel GT. The solstice has a 2.4L Ecotec, also available in the Chevy Cobalt SS. It shares parts from as many other GM cars as possible, even using the backup lights from an SUV.

Chevy Cobalt: Base models are around $13-15k, SS in the upper teens.

In 2005, the Speedster went for around 32,000 euros, that's about $45,000!

Currently the Pontiac Solstice sells for $22,455 - $28,135.

What I don't get is why they can't make a $15,000 mid-engined two seater car. They could use the same motor and transmission as the Cobalt, and offer higher packages with the 2.4L Ecotec as an SS option and the 260hp LNF as an SS turbo model. The top model would probably sell for $23-25k fully optioned.

I don't see any reason why it costs them more than the econoboxes to make two-seater cars. Does limited production really make that huge of a difference, especially with shared parts!

A new Fiero could get more than 45 miles per gallon if made light enough and be super safe. I had a 2004 Cavalier that got 37 mpg and Fosgatecavy98 swapped an Ecotec into his Fiero and got 47 mpg without using skinny tires. An aluminum space-frame would make it super light while certainly being safer than a Toyota Yaris or Chevy Aveo Coke can car while using less gas.

If priced right, a small, economical two-seater would sell very well. College students and commuters would buy them to save on gas while still looking cool. Even some parents of high schoolers would buy their kids some...I have seen parents plop almost 20 grand for a Civic or Cobalt for their kid to drive into a tree next week.

I guess I'll end my rant by saying that this is the very reason Detroit is in trouble. Car prices kept going up and up while the nicer models disappeared. Of the Big Three, Ford is in the least trouble right now and they kept making the Mustang. I don't think this is a coincidence, when there is a nicer upper model, more of the lower models will sell. If a car brand doesn't have a youthful feel to it, no youth will buy the car brand from now on.

I say we should have let 'em liquidate. Somebody else will buy the factories and run better companies and employ more people than the current bad crop of automakers.

2 seaters = sporty = no kids = more cash.

Thats their liogic.

2 seaters = less usefulness = less sales = higher production costs

The need to sell any basic car for $20K+ for profit. Limited marketability for a two seater, means limited production.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: 2 seaters = less usefulness = less sales = higher production costs

Exactly, it's a niche or specialty vehicle, not high volume,

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One reason the Opel Speedster is/was so expensive, it is based on the Lotus Elise/Exige.

Couldn't pay for the dies they cast the plastic in then huh?

I think 2.5 and DRA have the best answer. these are specialty vehicles, so companies can charge more. Like a Rolex vs. a digital Timex.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: I think 2.5 and DRA have the best answer. these are specialty vehicles, so companies can charge more. Like a Rolex vs. a digital Timex.

In a lot of cases they have no choice but to charge more, the expense of tooling and setting up production for a limited run has to be recouped.
The Fiero may well be one of the exceptions in that it used an enormous amount of "off the shelf" GM parts and was marketed as a sporty economy comuter car. I paid right at $9000 for my first Fiero in 1984, this was a very competative price and within the first time new car buyers budget.
The new Thunder Bird shares a lot of parts with other Ford products, but it also has a lot of special sheet metal where the Fiero had unique but fairly inexpensive body panels.
The Miata is another fairly inexpensive two seater.

But a true mid-engine performance two seater is not gonna be a big seller, therefore limited production, therefore less volume to recoup that initial investment in tooling and production facility. What may look like a higher markup to the consumer may just be the manufacturer trying to break even on their initial costs.

As stated before, for any production run, the 1st item off the line is the most expensive. On a run of anything, the costs per item decreases inversely with the total # produced and sold. Of course, they don't charge way way more for the 1st one off the line, and then much, much less for the last one---they average the costs over what they expect the total sale to be. Averaging the costs on a 90,000 unit/year run will be much less per item than if it were only a 10,000 unit per year run.

A one off is the most expensive item you can produce. Producing millions of the same item = a much cheaper to purchase item. Applies to beans, bombs, bullets, cars and everything else.

Best thing you can do is buy it from the guy who bought it new, then realized it wasn't for them. If you can find that deal it can be sweet.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: ---they average the costs over what they expect the total sale to be. Averaging the costs on a 90,000 unit/year run will be much less per item than if it were only a 10,000 unit per year run.

You also have to keep in mind that with some models production is often limited in order to KEEP the prices high and add that "rare, limited numbers" prestige. It's the "sell less for more" (money) philosophy.
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[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 12-24-2008).]

quote Originally posted by DRA: In a lot of cases they have no choice but to charge more, the expense of tooling and setting up production for a limited run has to be recouped. The Fiero may well be one of the exceptions in that it used an enormous amount of "off the shelf" GM parts and was marketed as a sporty economy comuter car. I paid right at $9000 for my first Fiero in 1984, this was a very competative price and within the first time new car buyers budget. The new Thunder Bird shares a lot of parts with other Ford products, but it also has a lot of special sheet metal where the Fiero had unique but fairly inexpensive body panels. The Miata is another fairly inexpensive two seater. But a true mid-engine performance two seater is not gonna be a big seller, therefore limited production, therefore less volume to recoup that initial investment in tooling and production facility. What may look like a higher markup to the consumer may just be the manufacturer trying to break even on their initial costs.

I think the miata is cheaper since they sell so damned many of them. ( at least around here ). They are less of a niche market then most "2 seaters".

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 12-24-2008).]

If materials and labor were cheap enuf they could be had for very little. Development would take the most initial investment, but beyond that it's just the profit vs cost thing. Would we want to buy Fieros made in China or India?
Pontiac tried some of this cost cutting when the Fiero was built. Chinese cast connecting rods in the duke=high failure rate=engine fires=unfunny reputation.
The brilliant part was using existing GM parts to create a totally new vehicle. Rubber cradle bushings weren't all that smart, but I'm sure it was all part of the budget thing.
The Miata has sustained itself by continuing to be an inexpensively built image car. After that, you are looking at the Solstice or something like that. the Chrysler convertible 2 seater went buh bye, and I'm not sure the Caddy two seater or Vette is truly profitable. I hear them referred to as models that define the brand, not the most profitable/popular. Lustworthy, yes. Monemakers, maybe not in spite of the price.

If I recall correctly, using the sales to date, and what is expected/projected to happen through the end of the production run based on that performance, GM stands to lose about $3-to-5000 on each solstice/sky sold throughout the life of the platform. That's not union legacy cost hype, thats just production/tooling/assembly costs because the R&D and Tooling costs were so high...

Wonder how much they lost by not even producing the concept Fiero?