Not really Ron, when you consider that the #1 thing congress and the financial sector wants to see happen and soon, is for the public to have some confidence. Yes there are real and serious problems with the financial system, but I believe about 70% of the problems could have been managed if the public (myself included) had enough confidence in the banking facilities to let them sort it out on their own. The media is certainly a part of it as well, as was greed, but as long as depositers leave their money in place, only the bad banks will fail. Raising the cap will instill enough confidence to help make that happen.
I'll accept the confidence arguement. Letting the banks that made the bad loans fail is what accountability it's all about.
Now, let's talk about Indy's, I hear their going cheap now.
Ron
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-30-2008).]
The number of folks that have that kind of money sitting in a bank account has got to be minuscule in comparison to the rest of the nation.
Ron
You might be surprised, especially in these uncertain times. You can currently make a safe 3% to 4% in many simple FDIC insured money market bank accounts.
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06:22 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33144 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
[QUOTE]Now, let's talk about Indy's, I hear their going cheap now.
Ya mean Lot # 515? If it had came up for auction 8 months ago, you would be hauling it to Texas but now--too much uncertainty in the financial sector.[/QUOTE]
That's the one. Though I don't blame you, I'll bet it's hard to pass up.
Ron
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07:43 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33144 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by FrugalFiero: You might be surprised, especially in these uncertain times. You can currently make a safe 3% to 4% in many simple FDIC insured money market bank accounts.
You may be correct, I obviously don't hang out with the right folks.
It dark down here you know.
Ron
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07:44 PM
Oct 2nd, 2008
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Not exactly true AFAIK.. Same bank-differnt names on the accounts. Husband, wife, daughter, son=$400K
Correct. The current FDIC guarantee is $100,000 per "entity." Basically, if the SSN or Federal Tax ID associated with the account is different, then it it is insured as a different entity.
My own account personal, one entity. My wife's personal account, another entity. Our joint account, a third and separate entity. A small business corporation, another separate entity. Each child with a separate account can also be a separate entity for FDIC purposes.
In the current context you can think of FDIC as an insurance program, and participating banks do pay a cash premium to the FDIC each month based on a percentage of their total insured deposits. Where do those premiums actually end up? I don't know.
And to answer one of Ron's questions, many small businesses have to maintain balances higher than $100,000 in a single bank just to cover payroll, supplier invoices, and other routine monthly expenses. Been there, done that during the bank failures in the mid 1980s (think Penn Square Bank), and it gets really scary to realize that 10 years of hard work is at risk unless you split your cash into multiple banks. Then imagine what it's like to be a mid-sized corporation with a monthly payroll in the millions of dollars; how do you protect your cash?
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 10-02-2008).]
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12:33 AM
FieroJam Member
Posts: 1118 From: Zephyrhills, FL Registered: Feb 2008
Correct. The current FDIC guarantee is $100,000 per "entity." Basically, if the SSN or Federal Tax ID associated with the account is different, then it it is insured as a different entity.
My own account personal, one entity. My wife's personal account, another entity. Our joint account, a third and separate entity. A small business corporation, another separate entity. Each child with a separate account can also be a separate entity for FDIC purposes.
In the current context you can think of FDIC as an insurance program, and participating banks do pay a cash premium to the FDIC each month based on a percentage of their total insured deposits. Where do those premiums actually end up? I don't know.
And to answer one of Ron's questions, many small businesses have to maintain balances higher than $100,000 in a single bank just to cover payroll, supplier invoices, and other routine monthly expenses. Been there, done that during the bank failures in the mid 1980s (think Penn Square Bank), and it gets really scary to realize that 10 years of hard work is at risk unless you split your cash into multiple banks. Then imagine what it's like to be a mid-sized corporation with a monthly payroll in the millions of dollars; how do you protect your cash?
This bit of legislation is more than likely aimed at small businesses not really individual people. At least that is what I get from it since small business is a very important part of this economy.
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05:46 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
A husband and spouse, with two seperate accounts, are covered for $200K.
All insurance is a shell game. When the hurricanes go through in FL or TX, insurance companies can and do go broke when they have too many claims at one time. The FDIC is no different, but they serve a different purpose.
Back in the '30's, runs on banks were often self fulfilling prophesies. One bank would go down the crapper and people would get scared so they'd hit THEIR bank, then another, then another. The FDIC was started so that even if a bank fails, if you're not a depositer there you shrug your shoulders and say "Big Deal, I didn't bank there, and my deposits are insured". It puts calm in the banking industry.
The limit has nothing to do with the current situation but it needs to be done. It has been $100K since about 1980 and needs to be raised. Heck, a new car or truck easily costs half of that and to run a business at payroll time can go up to the $100K limit pretty quick. FWIW, IRA's were raised to $250,000 a few years ago, so it's not like nobody knew this wasn't coming.
A little known fact, the member banks of the FDIC are paying a special assessment every year that is going to, theoretically, retire the debt owed the US Government from the S&L Bailout. The FSLIC doesn't have near enough members or capital anymore to even make a dent in it, so the FDIC member banks are paying for something they had nothing to do with (and we, in turn, are paying as well because don't think for a minute anyone but the bank customers are paying that bill too).
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by twofatguys:
Just different accounts does not cover it as I understand it. You have to use different banks altogether.
Brad
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07:46 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: In the current context you can think of FDIC as an insurance program, and participating banks do pay a cash premium to the FDIC each month based on a percentage of their total insured deposits. Where do those premiums actually end up? I don't know.
We can also think of AIG as an insurance program. One that we ?need? to bail out. If you needed a loan, to get bailed out, would you get it from someone who is in debt up to their eyeballs ? That would be the United States Government. Up to their eyeballs in debt and gonna borrow more to bail out another who is in debt up to their eyeballs, . Or, print more . Ironically, these bail outs are supposed to be so that credit is still available, . Credit which got us into this exact mess to begin with. The money did not disappear. It is there. It still will be lent to those that are worth the risk. I just may not understand. I will admit that.
quote
Originally posted by cliffw: Umm, yeah, right, . If you can have confidence in the system that says, "don't worry". I have seen the government in action at it is not pretty.
The hurricane evacuation routes/plans, the ice that was paid to be stored till they finally figured out that it was cheaper to let it melt (), the mobile home replacement homes, which also sat, because of formaldahide/etc reasons, to the government regulation which caused this current mess. Call me a cinic. I see this as a bailout to keep those suits and ties from jumping to their deaths, as they did preceding the great depression. I say, and it is hard for me to admit after fighting with my Dad all our lives that right makes might (his was the counter argument), the little man is screwed either way this go round. We can accept the plan with the guarantee of failure probability, or, we can gird our loins. Which, I have done all my life. No problem. Are we digging a deeper hole ? The bigger they are, the harder they fall. I say, let them fall. Good riddance. America is the great land that it is, because, people stepped up and picked up the slack. Who doubts that this time ? America was not made by the government.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker: It puts calm in the speculation industry.
Ya know, I would really love to hear your plan regarding a workable remedy for the economy. Not a bunch of soundbytes, or rhetoric, but real, workable, substantive input. Ya got anything like that, or just more of the same complaining, bitching, dissin' every single thing somebody proposes? And, you might start watching the rig count--this bad economy is fixin to get in your pocketbook as well.
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06:12 PM
PFF
System Bot
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by maryjane: Ya know, I would really love to hear your plan regarding a workable remedy for the economy. Not a bunch of soundbytes, or rhetoric, but real, workable, substantive input. Ya got anything like that, or just more of the same complaining, bitching, dissin' every single thing somebody proposes? And, you might start watching the rig count--this bad economy is fixin to get in your pocketbook as well.
Ok Don. First of all, sound bytes, rhetoric, complaining, bitching, and dissing, are beneath me. I always pick myself up. My plan, for a stronger United States of America, is, to let the chips fall. They are what made me pick myself up ! I am stronger because they fell because of my mismanagement. Second of all, I could give a flying flip about the oil field. I have seen it come and go. I am still here. Is this any worse than than you pushing the button (DPFGE ?) Actually, am kind of excited about this whole mess. I see revolt against the status quo of government today This may be the best thing which could happen to us. Armed revolt is failure.
Perhaps you should go back and read your posts & replies in this thread before you say any of that is beneath you. "Let the chips fall" itself is a soundbyte--a buzzphrase.. Nothing of substance-no detail-nothing specific. It's really really easy to complain. It's much much harder to offer a viable, workable, reasonable solution. "Let the chips fall" meets none of those descriptions--not in the real world anyway.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-02-2008).]
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06:43 PM
jetman Member
Posts: 7807 From: Sterling Heights Mich Registered: Dec 2002
Hate to throw cold water on this thread but the big touted increase is only temporary.
Any increase in the FDIC Deposit Insurance Limit will expire at the end of 2009 if enacted with the bail out plan.
That is a good thing jetman. Few things regarding financials should be written in stone for all of eternity. Things change, and policy should change with them.
Tighter credit begins to hit manufacturing, jobs Thursday October 2, 4:51 pm ET By Christopher S. Rugaber, AP Business Writer Sluggish economy, hurricanes boost jobless claims to highest since 2001
WASHINGTON (AP) -- There's no need to explain to Al Lubrano how deeply tight credit has wounded the economy. Lubrano, president of a metal components maker in Lincoln, R.I., said orders from his customers in the automotive, computer, and telecommunications industries have "dropped precipitously" in the past six weeks.
"I'm going to have to lay people off," he said, if the economy doesn't improve.
He's not alone. The government reported Thursday that factory orders took the biggest drop in two years in August as businesses cut back on purchases of large equipment and consumers spent less on autos, electronics, appliances and other goods.
When manufacturing takes a hit, jobs get pummeled. More people than expected lined up at the unemployment lines last week, according to government data released Thursday, pushing claims for jobless benefits to a seven-year high.
There's more pain to come, predicted Lubrano, if the House doesn't pass a $700 billion plan to buy bad assets from banks and other institutions to shore up the financial industry and eventually thaw frozen lending.
Lubrano met with President Bush Thursday as part of a group of business representatives who favor the package approved by the Senate Wednesday night.
"You're going to see jobless rates shoot up like you haven't seen in years" if the package doesn't pass, said Lubrano. His company, Technical Materials Inc., has about 200 employees and is already planning to reduce its workers' hours over the holidays.
The weak economy, and the impact of Hurricanes Ike and Gustav, caused new claims for unemployment benefits to increase slightly last week to 497,000, the Labor Department said Thursday.
That's the highest since claims reached 517,000 roughly two weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, the department said. It's the second-highest since 1992, according to David Resler, chief economist at Nomura Securities.
The hurricanes, which hit Texas and Louisiana earlier this month, added about 45,000 claims from the two states, the department said.
The hurricanes have led to higher claims for several weeks. As a result, the four-week average of claims, which smooths out fluctuations, jumped to 474,000, up 11,500 from the previous week.
The number of people continuing to receive benefits increased to 3.59 million, up 48,000 and higher than analysts' estimates. That's the highest total in five years.
Jobless claims are at elevated levels even excluding the hurricanes. Weekly claims have now topped 400,000 for 11 straight weeks, a level economists consider a sign of recession. A year ago, claims stood at 324,000.
The figures are likely to get worse, analysts said, because they don't yet include thousands of potential layoffs likely to result from the turmoil on Wall Street.
Just this month, investment bank Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy protection, while Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc. was bought by Bank of America Corp. Citigroup Inc. purchased Wachovia Corp. and JPMorgan Chase & Co. scooped up Washington Mutual.
"Thousands of more layoffs are expected to follow," said Karl Kuykendall, a regional economist at Global Insight, an economic forecasting firm.
Economists predict a separate Labor Department report Friday on payrolls to reflect further weakness in the labor market. They predict the report will show that the nation's employers cut 100,000 jobs last month. That's on top of 605,000 jobs that were eliminated in the first eight months of this year.
The report is expected to show that the jobless rate remains at 6.1 percent. The rate jumped above 6 percent for the first time in five years in August.
Meanwhile, the Commerce Department said Thursday that factory orders in August plunged by 4 percent compared to July, a much steeper decline than the 2.5 percent drop analysts expected and the biggest setback since a 4.8 percent plunge in October 2006.
The weakness was led by big declines in orders for aircraft, down 38.1 percent, and autos, which fell by 10.6 percent, the worst performance in nearly six years.
Orders for non-defense capital goods excluding aircraft, considered a good barometer of business investment plans, fell by 2.4 percent, the biggest setback in this category 19 months. It's an indication that businesses are slashing their investment plans in the weak economy, and growing credit strains are making it hard for companies to get loans to expand and modernize.
Large manufacturers have started to see their customers pull back "just in the past few weeks," due to difficulties with credit, said Daniel Meckstroth, chief economist at MAPI/Manufacturers Alliance, a research group.
The jobs and manufacturing reports disappointed Wall Street. The Dow dropped 348 points and the S&P 500 fell 47 points.
The negative economic reports could also add pressure on the Federal Reserve to cut its benchmark interest rate in an effort to bolster the economy. Many economists think the Fed could even move before its next meeting Oct. 28.
Credit markets, meanwhile, remained locked up as banks are wary of lending to each other, unsure of which might be the next to collapse.
The London Interbank Offered Rate, or LIBOR, for 3-month dollar loans rose to 4.21 percent Thursday from 4.15 percent the day before. The LIBOR is the rate many banks charge each other for overnight loans and is used as a benchmark for trillions of dollars of auto, student and other consumer loans.
Martin Regalia, chief economist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said the higher short-term rates for banks make credit harder to get for everyone else.
"When you build a dam upstream, you don't get any water downstream," he said.
AP Economics Writer Martin Crutsinger in Washington contributed to this report. But, who cares about tight credit--right? It won't affect anyone but the fat cats.
AP Financial crisis moves from Wall St. to the mall Thursday October 2, 6:00 pm ET By Anne D'Innocenzio, AP Business Writer As the financial crisis takes hold, already discounted prices in stores are going even lower
NEW YORK (AP) -- Alarmed by the financial meltdown, stores nationwide are slapping sale signs on everything from fall sweaters to furniture -- frantically trying to attract shoppers who are cutting back. Some analysts were already expecting the weakest sales growth for the holiday season in 24 years, and with uncertainty roiling the banking system and a teetering economy, they figure Americans will make their lists and check them three or four times.
"I haven't seen this kind of fright since 9/11," said Faith Hope Consolo, chairman of real estate firm Prudential Douglas Elliman's retail leasing sales division. She said stores are "all arming themselves for what is probably the most difficult season across the board."
At malls, shopping districts and on the Web, the discounts are growing desperate. "Up to 60 percent off," say signs at AnnTaylor LOFT stores, "50 percent off" at Old Navy. Restoration Hardware Inc. e-mailed $100 gift vouchers out to customers Thursday for purchases of $400 or more.
Holiday items are starting to flow into stores -- and they're expected to be marked down immediately, said Marshal Cohen, chief industry analyst for NPD Group Inc.
Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the world's largest retailer, is opening its Christmas shops a week earlier than last year to lure shoppers. Wal-Mart is also cutting prices on 10 popular toys to $10 each. Holiday catalogs are already arriving in the mail.
But it may take more than sale signs and promotions to spur shoppers, who have been dealing for months with high gas and food prices, weaker job and housing markets and tighter credit.
Many economists predict spending could deteriorate as the problems on Wall Street cascade through the economy, with layoffs expected to rise and frozen credit markets meaning shoppers are having a harder time getting loans and credit lines. Eight in 10 fear the financial crisis will affect them directly, according to an Associated Press-GfK poll.
Noelle Snow, 41, of Deerfield, Ill., said the economic turmoil has made her cut her holiday budget for her two children to $200 from $500.
"I'm just trying to sock away what I can between budgeting for a couple of things that have broken in my house," said Snow, who worries about her job in financial services and her stock funds. "I'd rather put that money toward a couple of things."
Amanda Plummer, owner of Precious Plum, a high-end clothing store in Summit, N.J., a bedroom community for financial executives, said business has slowed in September.
"I am definitely nervous. People are doing a lot more window shopping. Instead of buying four or five items, they are buying one or two," said Plummer.
Nevertheless, at clothing stores in malls, the volume and level of discounting is running about 10 percent more than a year ago, said John D. Morris, an analyst at Wachovia Capital Markets.
Holiday orders from clothing stores were already about 15 percent below last year's, and some stores are now canceling orders, said Arnold Cohen, co-founder of Mahoney Cohen and Co., an accounting firm for the apparel industry.
And industry figures indicate more shoppers are just staying home. Some industry sales forecasts say the holiday season could have the weakest growth since the early 1980s.
As the economy has turned sour, Americans have already been flocking to discounters, buying more store-brand cereals and peanut butter and mending their clothes instead of buying new ones.
For the holiday season, that may mean shoppers will look for more practical gifts instead of luxuries, said Tim Henderson, senior director and consumer strategist at Iconoculture, a cultural trend research company.
Analysts say shoppers this year may try to avoid using credit cards when they do spend.
Rodney Petreikis, 42, and Trina Harmon, 36, who were visiting Cincinnati from Malibu, Calif., said they will be making some of their own gifts and plan to rely on cash for what they do buy.
"I use my debit card instead of a credit card, so I don't end up spending more than I have to," said Petreikis, an actor, director and writer.
Even the wealthy have cut back on status symbols, and could pull back even more as layoffs rise in the financial industry.
Online jewelry seller Blue Nile Inc. told analysts last month the credit crunch is hurting sales of jewelry priced from $2,000 to $15,000 because shoppers can't charge as much on their credit cards.
Prices in consumer electronics have come down dramatically on everything from flat-panel TVs to Blu-ray DVD players in the past few weeks as stores appear to be reacting to a sharp falloff in demand, said Jeff Trester, co-founder of tracking firm PriceSCAN.com.
Throughout the holiday season, business at malls is expected to remain sluggish. The toy business, generally less vulnerable to economic woes because parents tend to cut back on themselves first, could also suffer.
Sherrie Krieg, 63, had been planning another big year for holiday gifts, most likely spending the same $5,000 she spent last year on her family including two grandchildren.
But Krieg said she and her husband, a retired factory worker, who live in Milwaukee on a fixed income and depend heavily on investments, said they will cut that in half because of the market's turmoil.
Her grandchildren, she said, "will have to learn it's not going to be the same."
AP Business Writers Mae Anderson in New York, Emily Fredrix in Milwaukee, Lisa Cornwell in Cincinnati and Ashley Heher in Chicago contributed to this report. Yep, let the chips fall--it won't hurt anyone but the rich bankers. Won't cause any layoffs in the lower class income earners--nah--it'll be fine for all of us.
Guess what? The less retailers make, the fewer expansions they make--the fewer employees they need. Going to be lean times for anyone working in the malls and big box sstores of the country--as well as the mom & pop stores across the nation.
Tip a waitress? No thanks--can't afford it this year.
Ya know what Cliff? I'll get thru this without batting an eye, I can afford it. I shouldn't care a bit about what happens, but I do, because I care about this nation as a whole, I see it as a whole--as real people, little people and fat cats. It's going to affect all of us in some way or another, and for us, as normal everyday citizens to say "let the chips fall", we are no better than those who both gave out the risky loans and those who accepted them.
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08:46 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Don, I know you better but, it almost seems like you would think that I do not have a right or cause to ***** and complain. I lied, sort of. It is not beneath me. It is not my solution though. I have made my views known to my elected lawmakers, as well as here.
quote
Originally posted by maryjane: Ya know what Cliff? I'll get thru this without batting an eye, I can afford it. I shouldn't care a bit about what happens, but I do, because I care about this nation as a whole, I see it as a whole--as real people, little people and fat cats. It's going to affect all of us in some way or another, and for us, as normal everyday citizens to say "let the chips fall", we are no better than those who both gave out the risky loans and those who accepted them.
I may not get through this without batting an eye. Who could ? I also care about this nation as a whole. Which is exactly why I say let the chips fall. It has worked for me. To me, the chips falling extend far beyond the financial market. To me, I am better than those that gave risky loans, and better than those that accepted them. It is called personal accountability. Again, I am just a dumb joe. I have learned my lessons in life and, I do not see my teachings being practiced
Only works as long as things are black & white--well defined. In reality, they often are not. What happens in the next few days, weeks and months is going to affect this nation on a very personal scale, and on a very much global scale. What you are advocating, could very well be the demise of our nation as a viable trading partner in the world. It will adversely affect our military, our international political clout, and our ability to achieve goals throughout many places we have vested interests in. I do not like Govt control--period, but I see no other option at this time. Free market economics won't get us thru this right now, and failure to do something, IMO, will likely plunge us into a depression--not just a recession. The less a person has, the more they are going to be affected, even those who had no direct connection to the sub prime loans at all. In the past, we always bounced back stronger. We don't live in that world anymore. We don't have the manufacturing base, nor can we get it back. We cannot compete any longer on a global scale, so we can little afford a depression or a lengthy recession. Like it or not, everything America and Americans do, is somehow tied to investments. Our health care insurance, our life insurance, our crop loans, our medicines, our industry. If the economy falls, we will not even be able to militarily defend ourselves. Britain went thru the same thing, in the late 30s. Before we entered the war, Britain was broke. Could not buy or build the things they needed. What may work for you as an individual, will not work for a nation as a whole. This could very well be the end of this nation as we know it, if something isn't done. It may be anyway--whether we act or not.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-02-2008).]
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09:27 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Don my apologies for posting from work, not being able to fully think and understand your responses. I did not read your previous cites. Be that as it may, right now, I am at work because of what they said (my company). I was supposed to work all week, after 1/2 a day off after an 84 hour week. Now I am getting sent home tomorrow (missing overtime) and am expected to be back at work in two days. Which has nothing to do with the crisis...except that.....people will say anything to get what they want Including our politicians. Their approval rating already demonstrates a lack of faith. For me to believe that they can fix this problem with just one weeks worth of effort, is just too hard to swallow. This issue is being discussed in mulitble threads. I do not know what I said where nor know the enlightenment you provided where. Technically, I have been working two weeks straight without the time to pay attention. Not just to the crisis either. I did note one of your responses mentioning that this nation might not be what it was. I disagree. People like you and me, and many others, along with freedom, will ensure that it is. Maybe it might take a while. As does an overgrown forest which is allowed to burn so new better growth can come along. As I mentioned, am just a dumb joe. I look forward to the wisdom of PFF to help educate me.
Don and I don't completely see eye to eye on this subject. I too would like to see the chips fall where they may. It will take a drastic situation to shake the spoiled irresponsible people out of their entitlement issues IMHO. But I can see his point on what it will do to the world to make those responsible for this mess own up. There will be more blameless people hurt world wide, and by this I mean the poor. Bankers knew more about the ramifications of making variable rate loans to low income people. The government pushed them to make those loans. Sure people didn't have to apply for those loans, but as was pointed out to me a few days ago , you can't fix stupid. They are not as culpable as the smarter people, but they are the ones paying the highest price by losing their homes. Parents not making their kids study and get good grades is one of the reasons that these people are not that smart. Our country has been allowed, by americans that don't want to admit that disciplining their children will be best for them in the long run, to embrace stupidity. Americans have grown too soft and spoiled. It is not the kids fault. It's the adults fault. Even though it's not their fault, they will be the ones to pay for the state of our country. Family and family values are sadly a thing of the past, and a rude awakening on what's really important in life is probably in order, but maybe the circumstances can be mitigated and they can be explained the facts of economy in a recession instead of a depression. Maybe a recession will make people more responsible, or everyone will have to arm themselves against theives. the second scenario is more likely with the way values have gone down in this country. We can only hope for the best as we spread our money out in different accounts. There are no easy answers.
Jane
------------------ Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
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12:31 AM
PFF
System Bot
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by cliffw: Gonna do it right now.
Done. I did not find one. Do I have opinions ? Yes. Bitching and complaining is not one of them. Now, in the spirit of a solution, I would like to hear your plan. You insinuated that mine was simplistic. Mine, might be the toughest of them all. It will hurt. My bad for not being able to verse up with this discussion, but...I think that I see that your plan is to trust the same Yahoos who got us into this mess. Every Empire has failed. It is not our time yet. I need a beer. I am gonna go get some, drink some, go to sleep, and dream, .
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 10-03-2008).]
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10:28 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
You think wrong. My plan would be for the govt to buy the debt, then take control of enough of the company's assets to guarantee the debt with, until the financial institutions pay treasury the debt back--with interest. CEOs of failed companies will be terminated from employment, with only their last normal paycheck. No big termination bonus for any ceo that led their company into debt.
A lot of plans will work. yours will, but will be the most costly of all, to the nation, & to every single one of us. Basically, yours boils down to--lets go grab a beer.
Just how many of you guys have more than 100 K in one bank account? Or one bank for that matter?
Seriously this is just a joke, they did this to pacify the rich, not the working class.
And just to start I have never had more than a 100 K in any one bank at anytime in my entire life.
Steve
As was stated in another thread, I can name--off the top of my head, at least 1/2 dozen regularly posting, PFF OT people who have more than $100k in the bank--either in cash deposits or liquid enough to virtually go down to their branch bank and withdraw it on demand. Almost any small business will have that much in deposits.
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10:48 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by maryjane: Basically, yours boils down to--lets go grab a beer.
I fail to see the connection. Don, I am real tired, back at home now. Your last post almost sound like let the government own the economy. I am confused. By the way, there is nothing wrong with a beer, in time, .
Originally posted by maryjane: No soundbytes--no buzzwords? No fluff-just all substance??
No, I am not on a mission. I am just speaking my mind. I did use some phrases which helped me elaborate. I am not trying to sell anything. I really believe that letting the chips fall is the best substance.
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11:13 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by cliffw: Now I am scared. They can not even manage to do their own job well.
To witt :
quote
Originally posted by maryjane: Here's where the extra $150 bil comes from, and some of that was passed by both houses of congress already, just attached or 'folded' into the bailout bill--like the Mental Health Parity part. Some of it is fluff, (not much IMO) a lot of it is sorely needed legislation.
Why does not a bill address just what it is supposed to ? Were votes bought to pass the Bill ? If what was already passed by both houses of Congress, why does it need to be attached or folded into a bill of such importance ?
The reasons are many, in this case, it was to both get the entire package out of congress on onto the presidents desk for signature more quickly, and to make it more palatable for both sides of the aisle.
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11:30 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by maryjane: The reasons are many, in this case, it was to both get the entire package out of congress on onto the presidents desk for signature more quickly, and to make it more palatable for both sides of the aisle.
I can buy the first reason, the second sounds like quid pro quo. The first reason, why is it a package ? Each Bill should have individual merit.
I think raising the FDIC limits is long over due. 100 grand won't even cover the funds from a cheap house sale. If you want to lay out a doomsday scenario, you sell your house, money goes into the bank, before you can distribute the funds the bank fails.
850 billion? not even a drop in the bucket if the markets fail and the baby boomers retirements evaporate. That is just one part of the equation. Jobs, taxes from those jobs, welfare, crime, etc, and so on. This could be big time. I like to gamble a bit and the risk of failure by doing nothing "let the chips fall" is one that I do not want to take. Part of the bill I believe addresses the law on valuing real estate backed loans, this part will keep a companies books from going backwards overnight, like what happened this time and happened back in the big S&L disaster which was caused by taking away interest write offs on anything but you primary residence and devaluating real estate because no body wanted to hold it as an investment, this IS paramount in keeping this from happening again
Our markets and money is confidence based.
Our markets and money is confidence based.
Our markets and money is confidence based.
Our markets and money is confidence based.
I am deeply concerned when I hear people wanting the system to fail, I somehow do not think they really know what the will mean.
[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 10-03-2008).]
I am deeply concerned when I hear people wanting the system to fail, I somehow do not think they really know what the will mean.
It is a form of coveting. People who don't have as much as others see only 2 options for themselves. They--for whatever reason--cannot rise to the level of the group they are looking at, so their next best scenario, is to bring the other group down closer to their own level. It makes us as a species feel better about ourselves somehow.
It would be different if they really wanted everyone to go down to absolutely nothing, but that is not what they are advocating, because that would entail themselves losing too much.
It is a form of coveting. People who don't have as much as others see only 2 options for themselves. They--for whatever reason--cannot rise to the level of the group they are looking at, so their next best scenario, is to bring the other group down closer to their own level. It makes us as a species feel better about ourselves somehow.
I hate people like that!
Through out my life I have culled friendships for this very reason. Well, I guess what really happens is you realize they are not your friends. Misery loves company and the more the merrier I guess. Very sad.
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01:07 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by maryjane: It is a form of coveting. People who don't have as much as others see only 2 options for themselves.
I want nothing. Except, to see this nation prosper. To see freedom prosper. Sometimes a correction is needed. This is the time. I see this as more than a financial crisis. What makes me excited is that it is a political crisis, . Long over do. Do you think that the lobbyists who goaded this thing along, are not pulling for a bail out ? Special interest money was at work and you can bet your last FDIC dollar that it is at work still, .
Too late, it passed. The AIG loan from the fed is a good example of what I wanted to see happen. Had they gone down completely, there were so many local, regional, and state banks that were so exposed to AIG, that hundreds of thousands of retirement funds would have been wiped out. Probably millions. Millions more would have found themselves un-insured. This would not have been a correction--it would have been a disaster that affected millions of common, decent working folks in a very adverse way. The global exposure to AIG was even more profound, they insure world wide. I am not talking about regular deposit accounts--those are insured by FDIC (tho breaking the bank of the FDIC would have been a distinct possibility if AIG went down completely)
Socialism--maybe, but we could ill afford to sit by a let millions of people lose their life savings, and I am not talking about the very wealthy. I am talking about those millions who have their 401Ks and IRAs and their little personal mutual funds invested and exposed to AIG. I also firmly believe, that the heads of this corporation should be fully investigated and their asses charged as the law allows, if wrongdoings are found. They are on the list of companys the FBI is currently investigating.
quote
AIG, which was pushed to the brink by derivatives linked to mortgages and other soured investments, plans to refocus on its core property and casualty insurance businesses and is looking into the sale of other units as it seeks to repay a loan from the Federal Reserve. AIG shares rose more than 10% in early trading Friday. The insurer also said it had drawn $61 billion of the Fed's $85 billion credit facility as of Tuesday. Ed Liddy, AIG's recently installed chairman and chief executive, said the company has "already been contacted by numerous strong, stable parties" about buying the businesses. "The company is exploring divestiture opportunities for its remaining high-quality businesses and assets and the proceeds from any divestitures will be used to repay the Federal Reserve loan and to address our capital structure going forward," said Liddy in his first call with investors and analysts. "Our goal is to emerge from this process in a timely fashion as a smaller, but more nimble company that is solidly profitable and has attractive, long-term growth prospects," he added. Selling the assets will involve "a deliberate and disciplined approach" and AIG will use "considerable judgment and flexibility in the process," Liddy said. AIG said that its core concerns had pulled in about $40 billion in revenues during 2007 and that it's using Blackstone Group as coordinators for the planned sales. In return for its loan last month from the Fed, AIG was effectively nationalized, with the government taking a stake providing it almost 80% of the voting power in the company. "With respect to our current challenges, I would like to stress that our insurance businesses, our regulated entities are strong and well-capitalized. Our policyholders are secure," Liddy said during Friday's call. "Our challenge rests with the liquidity issues in our financial products business and securities lending." Meanwhile, he said the company was "grateful" for the bridge loan. "It is a lifeline and it provides us the flexibility we need to work our way out of this situation." Michael Kitchen is a copy editor for MarketWatch and is based in New York.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-03-2008).]
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02:19 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Don I was talking about personal accounts, not business accounts.
I realize it is not unusual for a company to have double that. But that was supposed to help the little guy. Make people think they were trying to help the little guy.
So do you have more than 100 K in a personal account?
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
. If you can have confidence in the system that says, "don't worry". I have seen the government in action at it is not pretty.
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