Can you say Police State? The Examiner has the scoop on a controversial new program announced today that would create so-called "Neighborhood Safety Zones" which would serve to partially seal off certain parts of the city. D.C. Police would set-up checkpoints in targeted areas, demand to see ID and refuse admittance to people who don't live there, work there or have a “legitimate reason” to be there. Wow. Just, wow.
Some of the words used to describe such a plan by those quoted in the Examiner story include "breathtaking" and "cockamamie," but that hardly begins to scratch the surface. Interim Attorney General Peter Nickles actually said that measures of this sort have "been used in other cities.” Which cities are those, Mr. Nickles? Warsaw?
Today's proposal appears to be a desperate attempt by the city to tamp down recent violence that has ravaged the city, especially in Ward 5. The "Neighborhood Safety Zones" would last up to 10 days. It's a struggle to think of words to describe such a plan other than authoritarian or ghettoization.
The full description of this plan from the mayor's press release is below.
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The Neighborhood Safety Zone initiative has been developed to help increase security for those who live in high-crime areas around the city and to help residents reclaim their communities. The program will authorize the Metropolitan Police Department to set up public safety checks to help safeguard community members and create safer neighborhoods in the District by increasing police presence aimed at deterring crime.
The safety zones will be established only upon request by a District Commander where there is evidence to support the existence of neighborhood violent crime, such as intelligence, violent crime data, police reports and feedback and concerns from the affected community.
Potential Neighborhood Safety Zones must be approved by the Chief of Police, and will be in effect for a maximum of 10 days. Public safety checks will be established along the main thoroughfares of the established neighborhoods. Anyone driving into a designated area may be asked to show valid identification with a home address in that neighborhood, or to provide an explanation for entering the NSZ, such as attending church, a doctor’s appointment or visiting friends or relatives. Pedestrians will not be subject to the public safety checks.
“The Neighborhood Safety Zones is just another tool MPD will employ to stop crime before it happens. The Neighborhood Safety Zone initiative will help residents terrorized by violent crime to take back their neighborhoods,” said Chief Lanier.
Initiatives such as the Neighborhood Safety Zones have been accepted by federal courts as a legitimate law enforcement practice in keeping with the Constitution’s Fourth Amendment. The constitutionality of the NSZ initiative has been reviewed by the D.C. Office of the Attorney General.
The NSZ will be launched next week in the Trinidad area.
Discuss
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10:20 AM
PFF
System Bot
Saxman Member
Posts: 5155 From: Melbourne, FL Registered: May 2005
Well if you have ever been to southeast DC you can see how this is gonna be useful. Even as a law abiding citizen, I would have no problem breaking some laws by concealed carry in those areas(which by the way is illegal in the district). Only because its so unsafe for anyone, especially if your white. Not opinion. truth.
However having said that I think it may be too little. Any act short of closing them off and sweeping the entire neighborhood probably wont have much of an impact in said neighborhood after the 10 day period is over.
Originally posted by Synthesis: Can you say Police State?
Totalitarianism.
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Discuss
Note to all
Be VERY careful how you discuss this subject.
Title XLVI CRIMES
Chapter 876 CRIMINAL ANARCHY, TREASON, AND OTHER CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
876.02 Criminal anarchy, Communism, and other specified doctrines; prohibitions.--Any person who:
(1) By word of mouth or writing advocates, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, or propriety of overthrowing or overturning existing forms of constitutional government by force or violence; of disobeying or sabotaging or hindering the carrying out of the laws, orders, or decrees of duly constituted civil, naval, or military authorities; or by the assassination of officials of the Government of the United States or of the state, or by any unlawful means or under the guidance of, or in collaboration with, officials, agents, or representatives of a foreign state or an international revolutionary party or group; or
(2)Prints, publishes, edits, issues, or knowingly circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any book, paper, document, or written or printed matter in any form, containing or advocating, advising, or teaching the doctrine that constitutional government should be overthrown by force, violence, or any unlawful means; or
(3) Openly, willfully and deliberately urges, advocates, or justifies by word of mouth or writing the assassination or unlawful killing or assaulting of any official of the Government of the United States or of this state because of his or her official character, or any other crime, with intent to teach, spread, or advocate the propriety of the doctrines of criminal anarchy, criminal Communism, criminal Naziism, or criminal Fascism; or
(4) Organizes or helps to organize or becomes a member of any society, group, or assembly of persons formed to teach or advocate such doctrines; or
(5) Becomes a member of, associated with or promotes the interest of any criminal anarchistic, Communistic, Naziistic or Fascistic organization, or helps to organize or becomes a member of or affiliated with any subsidiary organization or associated group of persons who advocates, teaches, or advises the principles of criminal anarchy, criminal Communism, criminal Naziism or criminal Fascism;
shall be guilty of a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-05-2008).]
Can you say Police State? The Examiner has the scoop on a controversial new program announced today that would create so-called "Neighborhood Safety Zones" which would serve to partially seal off certain parts of the city. D.C. Police would set-up checkpoints in targeted areas, demand to see ID and refuse admittance to people who don't live there, work there or have a “legitimate reason” to be there.
This has already been implemented in Fort Pierce just up the road from me. The FBI and DEA have essentially locked down the city. Anyone who "appears" to not be a resident and is seen there after certain hours will be arrested and interrogated.
Having lived there and knowing what the city's night life was like before this happened, I can assure everyone that the streets are completely empty after 11pm. I suppose many will agree that is a good thing... If you like being a prisoner in your own home after dark.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-05-2008).]
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11:39 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Why does it not surprise me that the District of Columbia, the single largest bastion of liberal thought in the country is the first to adopt a policy like this.
I can't wait to take my kids to visit the Smithsonian and get frisked and interrogated before we can pass the guantlet of machine guns first. It's going to add SOOOOO much more meaning to that little Constitution thing we will see.
I have not been to D,C, in along time ,Its worse than where I live,in Orlando,, where some black sections are fearfull places to live ,My favorite story .. Lady said" We do not want so many police here treating our young men with to much violence",,6 monthe later they are crying for more Police because of all the crime !! Parts of all our major cities have dangerous crime zones that business can not survive in ,,and people are fearful to even drive thru..I am seeing a transformation in my neighborhood.blacks are fleeing an area close to me because my area is SAFER,,now I have to lock up every thing or lose it.. My bicycle is the latest loss ,I left it where you could see it from the road(a no no now) I was lazy.. I subscribe to the local newspapers and Orlando Florida (central Florida ) is a crime ridden city our latest claim to fame was the 6 white cheer leaders that beat another cheerleader, they are looking for some men who shot a lady because she would not give up her PHONE NUMBER for a date When I am elected president I will clean these hate filled ,rat warrens out ..they will be patroled by federal troops , Marines and paratroopers.. who will fence the border & patrol it Please elect a democrat so our cities will get much worse , the main jail here is like a prisoner of war camp,We live in a free society this has led to a free criminal society
The no snitch rule gets just more of the same more violence. The criminal element will control the area, the people will not help the police for fear of retaliation of the criminals, the judges, if the criminals are arrested, let them back out on the street with low bond to reenforce the no snitch rule or the NAACP screams racial intolerance or the family claims that their criminal child is a good boy and cry police brutality. Those people who live in those neigborhoods are getting just what they support. If the only way to protect them from themselves is to set up sealed off zones sobeit. The residence want protection, but they don't want the police, if not the police who then? Cage that element in their criminal zone, no one in and no one out.
Put the Rve Jackson or Sharpton as the overseer of the areas and see what good it does.
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12:26 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41340 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Why does it not surprise me that the District of Columbia, the single largest bastion of liberal thought in the country is the first to adopt a policy like this.
they were NOT the FIRST. After the comparisons to Nazi's above in these actions, did that make Hilter a liberal? Stalin? Mussolini?
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I can't wait to take my kids to visit the Smithsonian and get frisked and interrogated before we can pass the guantlet of machine guns first. It's going to add SOOOOO much more meaning to that little Constitution thing we will see.
Umm, I just went to D.C. last week - and while I didn't see anyone being frisked, I didn't exactly tour those neighborhoods since I don't know anybody there or have any reason to drive through. I was in the Hilton on 14th St NW and saw homeless people on every bench after dark from the Ronald Reagan building to New York Ave. Aside from panhandling, they did not appear menacing. I recognized one of them the next morning in the modest resturaunt we had breakfast in getting something to eat. I saw more armed police in Italy two years ago, and a significant (although not oppressive) number in Madrid as well than I did in D.C., at least around the Mall and the Smithsonian. Maybe we should allow these neighborhoods decline to the point of open anarchy. Maybe they'll burn themselves down, or Warlords will appear with their own armies like in certain African nations while the world ignored them. Where I choose to live, the 'bad' neighborhoods get a heavier police presence and are subjuct to stings and raids. While I can appreciate the fear of a totalitarian government, I can also assert that the residents of a neighborhood, town or city - hey, lets extend that to a country... could would and should suspend certain rights when neccessary to regain civil control of their dominion. Oh wait - our presumably (by the comments above) liberal President did that, and called it the Patriot Act, right?
Originally posted by USFiero: Oh wait - our presumably (by the comments above) liberal President did that, and called it the Patriot Act, right?
No... It happened long before that but was not publicly announced until H.R.3162 ("A bill to deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance "law enforcement" investigatory tools, and for other purposes") was made law by the people of the united states through popular vote.
Other purposes?
This was passed with bipartisan vote which passed by 98%
"You" as an individual did vote on it as well by virtue of your representation (Allen (R-VA) & Warner (R-VA)) both of whom you voted into office, who voted for you on your behalf to enact this law.
I say vote the black man into office and see what he does.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-05-2008).]
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02:23 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
they were NOT the FIRST. After the comparisons to Nazi's above in these actions, did that make Hilter a liberal? Stalin? Mussolini?
WOW! Were Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin REALLY Americans?
I said "in this country"
Let's pay attention.
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I saw more armed police in Italy two years ago, and a significant (although not oppressive) number in Madrid as well than I did in D.C., at least around the Mall and the Smithsonian.
We're still missing the "in this country point", but we are certainly on our way to a European system if this keeps up.
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Maybe we should allow these neighborhoods decline to the point of open anarchy. Maybe they'll burn themselves down, or Warlords will appear with their own armies like in certain African nations while the world ignored them. Where I choose to live, the 'bad' neighborhoods get a heavier police presence and are subjuct to stings and raids.
OR...instead of throwing an armed militia at them why don't we just not let the neighborhoods decline by improving job opportunities, after school facilities for kids, etc.?
Just a thought.
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While I can appreciate the fear of a totalitarian government, I can also assert that the residents of a neighborhood, town or city - hey, lets extend that to a country... could would and should suspend certain rights when neccessary to regain civil control of their dominion. Oh wait - our presumably (by the comments above) liberal President did that, and called it the Patriot Act, right?
FDR would be proud.
Just one question, WHO decides when it is "necessary" to "regain" "control"?
Feel free to define those terms too.
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02:47 PM
WhiteDevil88 Member
Posts: 8518 From: Coastal California Registered: Mar 2007
"OR...instead of throwing an armed militia at them why don't we just not let the neighborhoods decline by improving job opportunities, after school facilities for kids, etc.?
Just a thought."
Wouldn't that be telling businesses how to operate? Don't program and facilities cost money? I agree, it sounds like a better way then cordoning off neighborhoods, but it almost sounds, dare I say Liberal? Fight crime with midnight basketball?
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03:28 PM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
OR...instead of throwing an armed militia at them why don't we just not let the neighborhoods decline by improving job opportunities, after school facilities for kids, etc.?
say, that sounds like one of them there Liberal ideas. And FDR was a four term President. What a screw up.
"OR...instead of throwing an armed militia at them why don't we just not let the neighborhoods decline by improving job opportunities, after school facilities for kids, etc.?
Just a thought."
Wouldn't that be telling businesses how to operate? Don't program and facilities cost money? I agree, it sounds like a better way then cordoning off neighborhoods, but it almost sounds, dare I say Liberal? Fight crime with midnight basketball?
They have those opportunities. The don't take them. Its easier to be a thug in a city where no one will fight back or can fight back.
say, that sounds like one of them there Liberal ideas. And FDR was a four term President. What a screw up.
A 4 term President who interned Japanese and Italian Americans for no reason other than he thought Italians were just a "bunch of Opera Singers" and Japanese were not trustworthy. Yep, let's suspend the Constitution for them. They ain't regular folk like us who deserve liberty. [/sarcasm]...for now.
They have those opportunities. The don't take them. Its easier to be a thug in a city where no one will fight back or can fight back.
I disagree. The Johnson Administration and his "brilliant" idea called the Great Society royally ****ed anyone of lower economic means. Hearding people into Ghettos and calling it "progress" was nothing more than modern segregation under the guise of helping out. Yeah, helping out of "our" neighborhoods.
I say tear down the ghettos, force integration, put them in school, teach them some values and skills, show them the light and they will thrive. As long as we continue to tolerate these systems that destory human self-worth then we will NEVER end the racial divide.
That is NOT a liberal value. It is inherently conservative to value human freedom, human dignity, and to NOT tolerate victimology as an excuse for failure.
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04:04 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Forced integration? Are you going to be subsidizing those moves from East Oakland and East Palo Alto to Morgan Hill? How about their new house payment?
Sounding more like a Commie with every post.
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04:13 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41340 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
A 4 term President who interned Japanese and Italian Americans for no reason other than he thought Italians were just a "bunch of Opera Singers" and Japanese were not trustworthy. Yep, let's suspend the Constitution for them. They ain't regular folk like us who deserve liberty. [/sarcasm]...for now.
Hey it happened... and it's happening. We call it Gitmo, and it wasn't some wild-eyed socialistic yellow democrat ramming it down our throats. Why, if a couple of choruses of Kumbayah around a campfire will fix things, we should have no problem fixing things in the middle east. Now, having said a whole bunch of stuff like that, I'll say this: I believe we have, hands down, the best form of government in the world here in the US. The President has a tough job, and Bush was handed a position of responsibility that went from good to flaming poo in a hurry. I really don't blame him as much as I blame Congree and those who influenced George for the state we are in, and that comes back to those of us who voted those folks in. If ou didn't vote, STFU and go back to your crack pipe. As a citizen, I expect my government to offer me reasonable protection. An International military against foreign threats, domestic protections, enfocement of laws, etc. I would rather my local police identify and deal with problems - and if the scale of the problem is large, give them that authority - than have to deal with it myself in my yard or in my house. It is far less stressful, cheaper and convenient to pay through my tax dollar for a SWAT Team to bulldoze a crackhouse in the next neighborhood over rather than me finding people in my garage at night. I don't think that is unreasonable. This isn't the Krakow Ghetto.
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Article 4 Section. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.
The little bit of Philosophy I took in college covered Plato and Aristotle among others (the one I found fascinating was Democrates, but I digress) and FDR seemed to follow a little bit of Aristotles' ideas of Redistributive Justice; Aristotle thinks that conflict between the wealthy and poor are disastrous for the state. To avoid this division, he believes that controlling poverty is crucial for political stability. No one can live a decent or happy life without meeting certain needs (Like Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs). While he believed in private property, he also held that some land should be kept public. Second, he is a strong believer in birth control to limit population growth. That's kind of a given in our country today, at least if your a Democrat. The method seems to be the point of dissention. Finally, since even the best state will undoubtedly have some poor people, so Aristotle urged a combination of private and government social services should be designed as a safety net, and that the main aim of charity and government support; that should be directed toward helping the poor to become self-sufficient, much like the origional idea behind Welfare. His proposals are a combination of private charity and government assistance that include job training. I don't think it is unreasonable to change the welfare system as our culture evolves. I doubt any Philosopher would endorse a hand out over a hand up. Wow, that was a little bit of a rant. Maybe I should just say that I have been glad to see crime-ridden neighborhoods cleared out of my town, and I'm only glad it was done with the unanimous approval of the citizenry. Perhaps Washington's problem is that nothing was done for too long, now it takes extreme measures to correct things.
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04:51 PM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Forced integration? Are you going to be subsidizing those moves from East Oakland and East Palo Alto to Morgan Hill? How about their new house payment?
Sounding more like a Commie with every post.
Yeah, and those foreigners don't have a clue how to run their countries. Why, it's a wonder the whole freaking European Union hasn't collapsed in on itself.
Yeah, and those foreigners don't have a clue how to run their countries. Why, it's a wonder the whole freaking European Union hasn't collapsed in on itself.
Huh?
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05:23 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Originally posted by Toddster: And are you SERIOUSLY equating murderers with RPGs to interned Japanese and Italian American citizens who committed no crime other than being born?
From what I understand some of those prisoners never had weapons in their hands but were "suspected" of something. We all know how honest 3rd world people can be. Mutthatma stole a goat so Hidmindihajida says he is a terrorist operative so we scoop his ass up and send him to gitmo for 6 years of questioning.
Hey what about that Canadian who disappeared while passing through JFK a few years back? That stuff doesn't happen anymore now does it?
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07:53 PM
Jun 6th, 2008
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
Originally posted by Toddster: And are you SERIOUSLY equating murderers with RPGs to interned Japanese and Italian American citizens who committed no crime other than being born?
We all know hindsight is 20/20. It's much easier to pontificate to the past. None of us were adults in that event, we can't appreciate the tone of the time.
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You're a fan of Democrates? Well, "He who admonishes a man that fancies he has intellect, labours in vain". ~ Democrates
I love that. For every finger you point, you've got three pointing back.
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08:43 AM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Originally posted by 84Bill:Hey what about that Canadian who disappeared while passing through JFK a few years back? That stuff doesn't happen anymore now does it?
I understand it is being treated as illegal Rendition. My grandfather was in the Army Corp of Engineers, and in WWII (he served in WWI, II and Korea) one of his jobs was transporting the American Japanese to the camps. He felt bad about it, but it was the command that came down from the administrative branch. But he felt that it was not just to supposedly protect Americans, but perhaps to protect the Japanese as well. At least that's how he reconciled it in his mind. Gitmo doesn't get that distinction. So, we've learned. But, obviously, we don't always get it right. To get back on topic, it seems that as usual you have to go to extremes at times to change the course of society. Even if the actual result is never as radical as feared.
Bet this new plan works as well as their asinine hand gun ban. Anyone think their sky high crime rate will actually go down?
Some of it will. Its hard to slang drugs on the street when your customers are being turned away by cops. I hope they set up shop at 900th bock of I st. and Sheriff ave. I also hope they understand the balloon principle. Where if you squeeze one side just move stuff over to the other side. If they need to they can call in the NG again. Something very drastic needs to be done. Crime in DC is miles past out of hand. I just got back from 2 different job sites in the city and one does not feel safe around them at 4 in the morning.
I understand it is being treated as illegal Rendition. My grandfather was in the Army Corp of Engineers, and in WWII (he served in WWI, II and Korea) one of his jobs was transporting the American Japanese to the camps. He felt bad about it, but it was the command that came down from the administrative branch. But he felt that it was not just to supposedly protect Americans, but perhaps to protect the Japanese as well. At least that's how he reconciled it in his mind. Gitmo doesn't get that distinction. So, we've learned. But, obviously, we don't always get it right. To get back on topic, it seems that as usual you have to go to extremes at times to change the course of society. Even if the actual result is never as radical as feared.
Though the attack of 9/11 itself was horrifying, the attack on the general population that followed is even more so and longer lasting.
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10:24 AM
Jun 8th, 2008
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Sorry, left out the sarcasm smiley. We start equating our government with other oppressive failed regimes initially, then retreat in 'it's just our country' as if we have no relevance or obligation to set an example in the world. Other countries enjoy democratic societies with strong police presence - no small or medium group in Italy would try stuff like the gangs do in Mexico. 'Just giving them what they want' and 'improving their situation' could be so totally opposite from each other...and wasting resources. Now it sounds like I'm writing off these communities, but if I lived in such a place, I'd want my government to make it safe for me. If you have something close to warlords with small armies operating in the neighborhood, I don't want it to become 'Little Somalia.' I'd want action on the part of my elected officials, someone accountable. The stereotyped hand wringing and let's-form-a-committee that 'liberals' get painted as are really all politicians at large. It has come to this. We can recall riots and tragedy's from the past where the Government acted too aggressively too late in a response to a declining situation. Like Bill said; the people we elect into office have a responsibility to ensure the safety of their constituents. No one would think this is permanent. Give me a stable place to live, then start talking about the 'hand up instead of a hand out.'
Originally posted by Toddster: A 4 term President who interned Japanese and Italian Americans for no reason other than he thought Italians were just a "bunch of Opera Singers" and Japanese were not trustworthy. Yep, let's suspend the Constitution for them. They ain't regular folk like us who deserve liberty. [/sarcasm]...for now.
Detention of Japanese Americans was Not universal over the US. It was usually only those living on the west coast, or other sensitive areas!!! Shizz, what happened with Rodney King, a few years before that it was Martin Luther King? California has more than its fair share of 'quick thinking people', I'm resolved to enjoy a slower Mid-west pace. Italian Americans, German Americans, detention was so marginal a percentage of the first / second generation to be a non-factor, very few were interned, sep't for azzholes. Get your quote correct on 'Opera Singers'. Todd you leave yourself open on this, you keep pushing this non-factoid.
------------------ Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto. Turning white on top, like owner. Leaks a little, like owner. Doesn't smoke....... OK, we're trying to quit.
FDR would be proud.
