Wider Death Penalty Sought
At Least Six States May Expand Use of Executions
By Emily Bazar
USA Today
(Feb. 7) -- At least a half-dozen states are considering broadening the death penalty, countering a national trend toward scaling back its use.

The Death Penalty Debate

Lawmakers have proposed legislation that would increase the range of crimes eligible for execution. In Texas and Tennessee, for example, legislators want to include certain child molesters who did not murder their victims.

"The hope is that these monsters will see that Texas is serious about protecting children," says Rich Parsons, spokesman for Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst. Dewhurst, a Republican , is working with state senators to draft legislation that would make repeat offenders subject to capital punishment in some cases. "If they understand they could face the ultimate punishment, " they might "think twice," Parsons says.

Virginia is considering bills that would make accomplices to murder, as well as killers of judges and court witnesses, eligible for the death penalty.

"I'm a believer in the deterrent effect of the death penalty," says Republican Delegate Todd Gilbert, a state prosecutor who sponsored two of the measures. "I know a number of states are reconsidering their position on the death penalty. -- I feel confident Virginia's system is set up to work."

Lawmakers or courts have temporarily halted all executions in 11 states in the past year, most of them over concerns that lethal injection is cruel and unusual punishment, says Richard Dieter of the Death Penalty Information Center, which he says takes no position on the death penalty but has been critical of how it is applied.

In December, a convicted killer in Florida took 34 minutes to die and had chemical burns on his arms after a lethal injection procedure. After the execution, then-governor Jeb Bush created a commission to study possible improvements and halted executions until the commission releases its report.

Other states with proposals to expand the death penalty:

-- Missouri. Gov. Matt Blunt said in his State of the State address last month that he wants a mandatory death penalty for the murder of law enforcement officers. Blunt, a Republican, says the state must protect its public servants and the death penalty would be a deterrent. "This is the type of crime that calls for the death penalty," he says.

Robert Blecker, a law professor at New York Law School who specializes in the death penalty, says the Supreme Court has found mandatory death sentences unconstitutional because they don't allow defendants to present mitigating evidence. Blunt says his measure will take that into account.

Georgia. GOP state Rep. Barry Fleming has introduced a bill to allow a judge to impose the death sentence if at least nine of 12 jurors - not all 12, as now - voted for it.

-- Utah. The House passed a bill Tuesday making murder of a child under 14 subject to execution.

State Rep. Paul Ray, a Republican, introduced a bill to allow the death penalty for killing a child during abuse, sexual assault or kidnapping, even if prosecutors cannot prove intent to kill. He expects the House to vote later this week.

"We're going to send a message that if you kill our kids in Utah, we're going to kill you," he says. "In Utah, I don't think we use the death penalty enough."

Based on the AOL poll, 72% of the voters said they agreed with a stronger and wider use of the death penality. I've got no use for child molestors, it's widely known that these people do not get past whatever their problem is and normally repeat. I guess I have to side with the second offense criteria, if you do it again, you're toast.

------------------
Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-07-2007).]

Agree

quote Originally posted by blackrams: "If they understand they could face the ultimate punishment, " they might "think twice," Parsons says.

Are you kidding me? Some of them might actually have mental disabilities or complexes that are driving them to do this. They're sick. It might not be a choice to some of them. They could of possibly been victims of the same abuse they do.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: -- Missouri. Gov. Matt Blunt said in his State of the State address last month that he wants a mandatory death penalty for the murder of law enforcement officers.

What's protecting us from the corrupt cops? I just don't understand why officers are held at a higher standard then other people. If I offend anyone who has officers in their family I'm sorry. Maybe you can explain to me why their lives are more valuable than mine?

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Georgia. GOP state Rep. Barry Fleming has introduced a bill to allow a judge to impose the death sentence if at least nine of 12 jurors - not all 12, as now - voted for it.

I disagree to this.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: "We're going to send a message that if you kill our kids in Utah, we're going to kill you," he says. "In Utah, I don't think we use the death penalty enough." Based on the AOL poll, 72% of the voters said they agreed with a stronger and wider use ofthe death penality. I've got no use for child molestors, it's widely known that these people do not get past whatever their problem is and normally repeat.

I believe some of these people are actually sick and need to be treated. I just don't understand how today we still live in a society barbaric enough to sentence other people to death. If our country pledges "In God We Trust", and then we then play God and decide who lives and who dies; aren't we being hypocrites?

[This message has been edited by Iron_Mark_2003 (edited 02-07-2007).]

Child molesters are not going to be cured if they have something wrong with them, that is not something that just gets better. It would be better to execute them than for them molesting children. The perfect solution would be to create a penal colony and just ship them all there and they never come back.

Also I dont think that police officers should be held above anyone else.

I've got a real problem with the death penalty used when the perpetrator did not take another human life. Especially considering the fact that the way we have the death penalty implemented now it's not a deterrernt at all.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Especially considering the fact that the way we have the death penalty implemented now it's not a deterrernt at all. John Stricker

It's not intended to be. It is intended to rid society of unfixable scum much like a scalpal is intended to cut away cancerous cells of a body. Since that is it's purpose, and since most people evil enough to sexually assault a child are unlikely to be fixable, I don't really see the problem with it myself.

Then there are other ways to do that. I'd suggest forced labor, at least get some benefit.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Toddster: It's not intended to be. It is intended to rid society of unfixable scum much like a scalpal is intended to cut away cancerous cells of a body. Since that is it's purpose, and since most people evil enough to sexually assault a child are unlikely to be fixable, I don't really see the problem with it myself.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: It's not intended to be.

oh?

quote "If they understand they could face the ultimate punishment, " they might "think twice," Parsons says.

sounds like deterrence to me. and more explicitly:

quote "I'm a believer in the deterrent effect of the death penalty," says Republican Delegate Todd Gilbert

quote Blunt, a Republican, says the state must protect its public servants and the death penalty would be a deterrent.

[This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 02-08-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Then there are other ways to do that. I'd suggest forced labor, at least get some benefit. John Stricker

I don't agree with the death penalty, but I do agree that they should be made into slaves. I think we should put them on some fields that have prison guards with shotguns and lots of shells.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I've got a real problem with the death penalty used when the perpetrator did not take another human life. Especially considering the fact that the way we have the death penalty implemented now it's not a deterrernt at all. John Stricker

I'm going to agree with John to a great extent. I know this is a very touchy topic. But, in the case of child molestation, a second offense deserves a sentence that will forever prevent the convicted person from having access to your or my children or grand children. There are too many variables to just kill all rapists and other criminal. But, when it comes to a child, I've got no problem with locking them up forever or if warranted, condeming them to a death sentence that is quick and very public.

------------------
Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

I don't know about the death penalty for child molesters but I believe a long prison term with the general prison population is probably worse than death.

On that subject how screwed up is this:
Recently an inmate got out of prison here after a 20 year term for the rape and murder of a 3 year old girl. The prison halfway house system who help them adjust to society after prison and get jobs got them placed in a carer position. A carer in a government funded home with only him there to care for a 13 year old oprhan girl.

Screwed up system at work.

"What's protecting us from the corrupt cops? I just don't understand why officers are held at a higher standard then other people. If I offend anyone who has officers in their family I'm sorry. Maybe you can explain to me why their lives are more valuable than mine?" (Posted by Iron_Mark_2003)

Part of it is that cops are generally held TO a higher standard than other people. There are a lot of things that are perfectly legal, but that we aren't allowed to do. If my best friend wants to have a bachelor party at a strip club, I can't go. If I want to buy some beer on the way home (not to consume, just to take home) I'd better go home and change first. If I want to get bombed on tequila at my residence, I can't be in my back yard because the neighbors might see me. If my neighbor comes and pisses on my front lawn, I am prohibited from taking any direct action. If I get a ticket (and don't think I can't), I'm also subject to disciplinary action from my boss. Our officers can be (and have been) disciplined for swearing or smoking in public.

And to answer your other questions...it isn't that a cop's life is any more valuable than yours...it has to do with the fact that an individual who will attempt a deadly assault on an armed police officer, will have even less hesitation about attacking a member of the general public, who isn't generally armed, equipped, or trained to deal with the threat. He's viewed as a much greater danger to society, and anyone who kills a cop, is much more likely to be a hardened and dangerous criminal who will take whatever he wants, whether it's your property, your wife, or your life.

And lastly...corrupt? If you have evidence that a cop is corrupt, go to his chief...or, if you don't trust them, go to the FBI. In any case of an allegation against a police officer, we are the only members of this society who are assumed to be guilty until proven innocent, because, unfair as it may be to the individual officer, it HAS to be that way to ensure that if there is any basis to the allegation, that even the appearance of a whitewash is avoided. It's why IAD cops are so universally disliked by other cops, because their approach is (and really has to be) so inquisitorial.

Yep, being a cop is a real picnic.

quote Originally posted by Vonov: Part of it is that cops are generally held TO a higher standard than other people.

more importantly, i think... police are instruments of state power, in which we have, by way of social/civil contract, invested our own authority. an attack on a cop is an attack on the state and the civic body. and when a civilian becomes a uniformed, armed representative of our own authority, they also take on all the risk for wielding that authority that we are relieved of. when a cop is killed, it is because their function is partly to keep us from being killed.

I think they should get rid of them all as cheaply as possible. If you all feel the need to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives, you could start paying for it yourself...you could each adopt a criminal and pay for it. I think if that happened all your attitudes toward them would definitely change. This would free up a lot of tax money to go towards other more important funds to benefit all of us, like education, or healthcare.

There's no reason for it to cost the taxpayer a dime. Many prisons in the south used to run at a profit.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by FierceGT: I think they should get rid of them all as cheaply as possible. If you all feel the need to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives, you could start paying for it yourself...you could each adopt a criminal and pay for it. I think if that happened all your attitudes toward them would definitely change. This would free up a lot of tax money to go towards other more important funds to benefit all of us, like education, or healthcare.

quote Originally posted by FierceGT: I think they should get rid of them all as cheaply as possible. If you all feel the need to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives, you could start paying for it yourself...you could each adopt a criminal and pay for it. I think if that happened all your attitudes toward them would definitely change. This would free up a lot of tax money to go towards other more important funds to benefit all of us, like education, or healthcare.

the vast majority of the prison population is not there for capital crimes. see recent reports on the "war on drugs", mandatory sentencing, and so on. we could save a lot of money by rationalizing relevant portions of the criminal justice system first.

government sponsered killing is never a good idea.
you trust the government that much? you trust the police? & government officials? I understand the need for police & know they do a good job, but to actually trust them? with your life? spur of the moment rescue is one thing. very few humans fail there.
when the (or any - more accurately) government finds a way to dispose of people it doesnt want - it will use it.
and, of course, now corporations will have a tool for people disposal.

we all know that money is what rules the courts. go and put killing up for sale. at least right now, you have to hire a hitman. with this, you just need to create the right situation, and you can get someone legally killed by the government.

sorry - just a paranoid rant....I do know better - and yes, I actually am for death penalty....like any system, there is abuse potential. tho, I am sure, my little world will never be affected one way or another by this.

LOL cop getting a ticket
right that happens once a blue moon OR LESS
maybe if they run over the mayors kid or something like that
99.9999% of the time no ticket or even bad cop no donut

btw KILLER COPS never get death sentences
most times they never go to a trial even
the very very few who do never get convicted
the very very few who do get convicted
and never get the death sentences
death is only for citizens not cops
and is handed out on the street level way too much

try to find a number of citizens killed by police each year
and or bad or questionable shootings by police
they HIDE THAT DATA, and do not want you to know
how many are shot {WAY TOOOO MANY!!}
or how many bad shootings by police [again WAY TOO MANY!!}

look at the playstation shooting in NC just before X mas in 2006
cop shot thru a door at a kid when he heard the door knocked open by other cops
and falsely claimed he heard a shot
grand jury did not file charges, so another killer cop gets a free pass
SOS and no justice if bad shooting by cops
but shoot back and you go directly to jail FOR EVER
even if they invade you house, on a wrong address type deal

funny but SAD
how the same neo-conned claim to want less goverment
but support ever more cops
and the state killers too

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Then there are other ways to do that. I'd suggest forced labor, at least get some benefit. John Stricker

Forced labor is a form of punishment, execution is not. execution is a remedy. I'm all for forced labor for people who I expect to have returned to society some day, but for a monster? We kill monsters.

I don't know where YOU live, ray...but here in Nashville, we have at LEAST three levels of review for ANY use of force whatsoever, and at least FIVE levels for any use of deadly force, two of which are outside the police department chain of command.

Let's put it this way---the days of bad cops being undetected for decades, are very swiftly going the way of the dinosaur, and although I don't always agree with the way our chief runs things (reminds me of Czar Peter the Great), I'm damned glad he's dragged us kicking and screaming, like Peter, into the 21st Century. We're a lot more professional than any other department our size than I know of, and NO ONE can say we're not accountable for what we do, because it isn't true.
Go to the police website at www.nashville.gov and check out the policy on Deportment and Discipline; believe you me, it ain't just a paper tiger.
And as far as hiding data...our data is reviewed on a weekly basis, in a meeting which is open to the public. The chief requires each section's supervisor to attend, present his statistics for the week, and explain, in person, before the entire group of 400 or so present, any anomalies or deterioration in his area of responsibility. Not a lot of room for hiding things in the cold light of day, and whatever his other qualities, the chief has a sensitive nose for detecting the presence of bovine fecal matter, and you are on dangerous ground indeed trying to run any past him.

[This message has been edited by Vonov (edited 02-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: oh?

Mixing my quotes with someone elses now? I have no doubt that you can find plenty of people with a different opinion to mine. That does not make mine wrong.

Follow along Eutwerpe, as far as IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII am concerned, the Death Penalty is a remedy and not a punishment. When young gang bangers walk into a liquor store and, without so much as a word, shoot a clerk to death, grab the money and walk out, it is CLEAR that the Death Penalty deters very little. So why do we have a Death Penalty then? It seems clear to me that these monsters are not being punished, they are being eliminated in the same way white blood cells eliminate invading bacterium. My body does not try to make peace with Ecoli and society should not try to make peace with monsters.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: government sponsered killing is never a good idea. you trust the government that much? you trust the police? & government officials? I understand the need for police & know they do a good job, but to actually trust them? with your life? spur of the moment rescue is one thing. very few humans fail there. when the (or any - more accurately) government finds a way to dispose of people it doesnt want - it will use it. and, of course, now corporations will have a tool for people disposal. we all know that money is what rules the courts. go and put killing up for sale. at least right now, you have to hire a hitman. with this, you just need to create the right situation, and you can get someone legally killed by the government. sorry - just a paranoid rant....I do know better - and yes, I actually am for death penalty....like any system, there is abuse potential. tho, I am sure, my little world will never be affected one way or another by this.

But you DO trust us with your life, Pyrthian...I, and any cop I know with any sense, carry the means, on or off duty, to end life at all times...but you don't run screaming from every cop you meet, lol...

and the reason I say "with any sense" is that most of the general public is blissfully ignorant of the number of monsters that walk among us...cops know better. Most of you would buy guns tomorrow, and carry them, if you had a year's worth of a street cop's memories.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Mixing my quotes with someone elses now? I have no doubt that you can find plenty of people with a different opinion to mine. That does not make mine wrong. Follow along Eutwerpe, as far as IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII am concerned, the Death Penalty is a remedy and not a punishment. When young gang bangers walk into a liquor store and, without so much as a word, shoot a clerk to death, grab the money and walk out, it is CLEAR that the Death Penalty deters very little. So why do we have a Death Penalty then? It seems clear to me that these monsters are not being punished, they are being eliminated in the same way white blood cells eliminate invading bacterium. My body does not try to make peace with Ecoli and society should not try to make peace with monsters.

yes, i understand your own position. but true to form, your initial statement of that position was falsely authoritative: "it is not intended to be [a deterrent]." whereas in fact it is very clearly intended to be, by at least those supporters who are actually quoted in the article. whether or not it functions as such is a different question, which i have not addressed.

love the "eutwerpe", by the way. i'm sure that as we continue to interact, you will accumulate even more infantile re-references of my nickname than voytek.

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: more importantly, i think... police are instruments of state power, in which we have, by way of social/civil contract, invested our own authority. an attack on a cop is an attack on the state and the civic body. and when a civilian becomes a uniformed, armed representative of our own authority, they also take on all the risk for wielding that authority that we are relieved of. when a cop is killed, it is because their function is partly to keep us from being killed.

Correct, and well put.

[This message has been edited by Vonov (edited 02-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Vonov: But you DO trust us with your life, Pyrthian...I, and any cop I know with any sense, carry the means, on or off duty, to end life at all times...but you don't run screaming from every cop you meet, lol... and the reason I say "with any sense" is that most of the general public is blissfully ignorant of the number of monsters that walk among us...cops know better. Most of you would buy guns tomorrow, and carry them, if you had a year's worth of a street cop's memories.

hmpf....
yes, while I dont run & dont scream, I do remove myself from the area as quickly & discreetly as possible. you yourself mentioned the discaimer already "any cop I know with any sense". it just takes one bad day. some poor person will loose their livelyhood. the legal system is endlessly expensive once you have been placed into it. innocent or not - it costs.

I do know most cops are good people. just like I know most Muslims are good people. its not the good ones that worry me. and, since I cant tell one from another from my "civilean" position - I'll just do my best to keep clear.

it is rule #1 for people I choose to hang with "are they cop magnets?" even if its for legit reasons.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: hmpf.... yes, while I dont run & dont scream, I do remove myself from the area as quickly & discreetly as possible. you yourself mentioned the discaimer already "any cop I know with any sense". it just takes one bad day. some poor person will loose their livelyhood. the legal system is endlessly expensive once you have been placed into it. innocent or not - it costs. I do know most cops are good people. just like I know most Muslims are good people. its not the good ones that worry me. and, since I cant tell one from another from my "civilean" position - I'll just do my best to keep clear.

The police officer motto is to protect and to serve. Why do I often that the only thing I feel served of is scrutiny by a cop. People probably fear cops more than anything. They will always posess you to have some sort of paranoia. Even if you're doing the speed limit, and everything seems find and well you will be looking left and right making sure everything on your car is in working order to avoid harassment by the police. I love the number where motorcycle cops step out in front of traffic and pull people over into a side road just to ticket them. I mean c'mon. How sorry is that they have to bully people around on their lunch hour? They should change their motto to, "**** that we're not looking for the criminals, however you sir... YOU DID 2 OVER THE SPEED LIMIT!" I guarantee you that most people when asked how they would react to a cops presence would be, get away as soon as possible even if they're totally innocent of doing anything wrong.

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: yes, i understand your own position. but true to form, your initial statement of that position was falsely authoritative: "it is not intended to be [a deterrent]." whereas in fact it is very clearly intended to be, by at least those supporters who are actually quoted in the article. whether or not it functions as such is a different question, which i have not addressed.

So what are you saying? That every time I express an opinion I should preface my comments with an announcement that I am expressing MY opinon so as not to confuse all the poor dumb readers here who can't figure that out on their own? Euterpe, the only thing "true to form" is your following me around picking every nit in my posts you can. It's actually kind of flattering. At least your constant attention is somewhat consistent with your name, if nothing else.

OK, let me give it a try....sigh;

HEAR YE, HEAR YE, Be it known to all persons within earshod of my voice that the following announcement represents the opinion of the poster and that others may have opinions of their own!

[my opinion]

[/my opinion]

quote love the "eutwerpe", by the way. i'm sure that as we continue to interact, you will accumulate even more infantile re-references of my nickname than voytek.

no doubt

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: hmpf.... yes, while I dont run & dont scream, I do remove myself from the area as quickly & discreetly as possible. you yourself mentioned the discaimer already "any cop I know with any sense". it just takes one bad day. some poor person will loose their livelyhood. the legal system is endlessly expensive once you have been placed into it. innocent or not - it costs. I do know most cops are good people. just like I know most Muslims are good people. its not the good ones that worry me. and, since I cant tell one from another from my "civilean" position - I'll just do my best to keep clear. it is rule #1 for people I choose to hang with "are they cop magnets?" even if its for legit reasons.

Keeping in the way of prudence is never a bad thing, and I respect your honesty and candor.

quote Originally posted by Iron_Mark_2003: The police officer motto is to protect and to serve. Why do I often that the only thing I feel served of is scrutiny by a cop. People probably fear cops more than anything. They will always posess you to have some sort of paranoia. Even if you're doing the speed limit, and everything seems find and well you will be looking left and right making sure everything on your car is in working order to avoid harassment by the police. I love the number where motorcycle cops step out in front of traffic and pull people over into a side road just to ticket them. I mean c'mon. How sorry is that they have to bully people around on their lunch hour? They should change their motto to, "**** that we're not looking for the criminals, however you sir... YOU DID 2 OVER THE SPEED LIMIT!" I guarantee you that most people when asked how they would react to a cops presence would be, get away as soon as possible even if they're totally innocent of doing anything wrong.

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: more importantly, i think... police are instruments of state power, in which we have, by way of social/civil contract, invested our own authority. an attack on a cop is an attack on the state and the civic body. and when a civilian becomes a uniformed, armed representative of our own authority, they also take on all the risk for wielding that authority that we are relieved of. when a cop is killed, it is because their function is partly to keep us from being killed.

I will agree to this post, but I will continue my stance on how the general public fears its police.

quote Originally posted by Iron_Mark_2003: I will agree to this post, but I will continue my stance on how the general public fears its police.

Which is why I believe that two of the most important qualities for any cop are compassion and humility. A cop needs to remember that he wasn't always a cop, and to remember he won't always be one. It's like the old show biz adage---the people you meet on the way up, are the same ones you meet on the way down.

Maybe someday, things'll change. I hope so.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: So what are you saying? That every time I express an opinion I should preface my comments with an announcement that I am expressing MY opinon so as not to confuse all the poor dumb readers here who can't figure that out on their own?

no, i'm pointing out a common gambit of yours, to present often over-generalized opinion as fact. giving you more credit than i usually think is due in your case, i believe it is within your power to modify your utterances. "i don't think it's a deterrent" isn't that much harder to type, now is it? and most of the people who do most of the better arguing around here - on both sides - are both capable and honest enough to make such distinctions. for some reason, you choose not to be.

i'm well aware that my attention fluffs your flaccid ego. if i cared, i would probably be less inclined to provide you your little spotlight. but i don't. i write for my own purposes.

[This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 02-09-2007).]

there are lots of good cops

the very few bad ones that are the problem
BUT A VERY BIG PROBLEM
and the donot rat on a brother cop code
makes the problem worse
and does very very little to get rid of the killer cops

so if we want to kill killers
what is to be done with killer cops?
we currently pretend they donot exist
thats a very poor way to solve a problem

try to google up the real numbers
of citizens killed by cops
or bad shootings by cops
nobody is adding up those numbers
why?????????????
to hide a problem???

my idea is simple
if a cop kills in a BAD SHOOTING
he never can be a cop or carry a gun anywhere for anyone
not talk about good shootings JUST BAD ONES
like the NC playstation case

http://www.wwaytv3.com/Glob...5970707&nav=menu70_3
------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 02-09-2007).]

well, this is a Death Penalty thread.
while there is some minor issues with cops in this - lets step back a little.

a "fair" community is a much better crime deterant than a death penalty. dont need to "stop" crime - need to stop the WANT to commit crime. I am sure most people in jail didnt "want" to do what they did to get there. they felt they had to. obviously, you cant please everyone. but, I know very few people who WOULDN'T do a crime for self gain, if there was no direct consequences. thats one of the problems with a consumer based capalist system: the need to be able to buy "stuff".

but, overall - there will always be a need to dispose of "bad seed" "miswired" whatever people.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I am sure most people in jail didnt "want" to do what they did to get there. they felt they had to.

i think of this as les miserables argument. and you know, i'm not convinced. i'm certain that there are many people in prison who find themselves there as a consequence of circumstance and desperation. i know that there are many there who are victims of injustice, or terribly unbalanced justice (that "war on drugs" thing again). but what are the percentages, really? and at what degree of incarceration?

there are a lot of flat-out nihilists in the world... many people who are stupid as hell, utterly amoral, and nearly feral. every time i see a documentary or read what appears to be a reasonably objective profile on some portion of the prison population, i am struck by just what hardcore losers most of them are, and what really hideous psychos some of the rest are.

i'm also aware that some of these losers and psychos are "created" in a sense by the circumstances that shaped them. but most of them seem to be aware enough to make choices, and it's clear that they've chosen violence in the service of pure self-interest.

i don't know. les miserables do exist. and i wish that the current system - which seems to me nearly irrevocably broken - had the means to sort these people out and make the old idea of "rehabilitation" a working reality. but i can't shake the impression that they are in the minority rather than the majority.

[This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 02-09-2007).]

Excellent, excellent post.

The purpose of having a JUDGE and a sentencing hearing are to take these things into account. The vast majority of people in prison aren't there for their first offence, they are there because they are repeat offenders and have no respect for the law.

Take DUI, for instance. How many times do we see the same names over and over again that have lost their license, or had to do community service, for DUI not once, not twice, but three, four, or more times? Alcoholism is a disease so that doesn't count? BS. My son's roomate has had 4 DUI's (currently without a driver's license, BTW) and he's not an alcoholic, he just goes to the bar on weekends and then thinks he can drive home plastered. That's a classic example of someone that has 1) no respect for the law and 2) no common sense. He doesn't do it because he was a poor child growing up in the ghetto, he does it because his idiocy knows no bounds, apparently.

The prisons are full of idiots. Unfortunately there are a few, A VERY FEW, that are there due to circumstances beyond their control.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: i think of this as les miserables argument. and you know, i'm not convinced. i'm certain that there are many people in prison who find themselves there as a consequence of circumstance and desperation. i know that there are many there who are victims of injustice, or terribly unbalanced justice (that "war on drugs" thing again). but what are the percentages, really? and at what degree of incarceration? there are a lot of flat-out nihilists in the world... many people who are stupid as hell, utterly amoral, and nearly feral. every time i see a documentary or read what appears to be a reasonably objective profile on some portion of the prison population, i am struck by just what hardcore losers most of them are, and what really hideous psychos some of the rest are. i'm also aware that some of these losers and psychos are "created" in a sense by the circumstances that shaped them. but most of them seem to be aware enough to make choices, and it's clear that they've chosen violence in the service of pure self-interest. i don't know. les miserables do exist. and i wish that the current system - which seems to me nearly irrevocably broken - had the means to sort these people out and make the old idea of "rehabilitation" a working reality. but i can't shake the impression that they are in the minority rather than the majority.

of course. the desolate life of the likes of "gang bangers". jail is like high school. a place to thrive and learn new skills. what else they gonna do? work at McDees? when ya start in a pile 'o crap - jail is a step up. so, why not? especially when thats where your friends are. the whole idea is stupid, really. but, what else ya gonna do? if I wanna keep my stuff - I gotta keep the poeple who want to take my stuff locked away.

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: i didn't know you were a cop, until this thread. let me ask you something... how would you assess the psychology of most of the cops you know? ...so i wonder. from your perspective, what kinds of people really do become cops, and what kinds of people do they become?

Good questions, Euterpe, which deserve answers as honest as I can give you. There are studies, I am told by our training academy staff, which show that criminals and cops are strikingly similar in their psychological makeup, with two important differences: cops are future oriented, meaning they have goals for their lives past the next few days or hours, whereas criminals, by and large, live more or less in the present. The other difference, and this one is more important, I think, is that cops are motivated, whether it be for family, spouse, or whatever, to accomplish, perform, and excel, by persons outside of themselves, meaning that although they may be selfish to a degree more or less consistent with societal norms, they are more motivated to behave in a manner that brings honor and status to those outside persons. Like soldiers, most of them would rather face a life-threatening situation, knowing the odds are stacked against them, than be seen as letting their buddies or family down, or bringing dishonor to them.

What kind of people become cops? I think it breaks down into two groups: The first one is the one that gives all the rest of us a bad name, the ones who go into it for the power involved, the ones who enjoy dominating other people, or who get into it for other wrong reasons, such as access to cop groupies (aka "holster sniffers"). That group, no matter what some would have you believe, are very much in the minority, but they're the ones who always are on the six o' clock news.

The second group is generally composed of the same kind of people who become nurses, or soldiers, or social workers; they feel an obligation to make a difference in the world they inhabit. They're the ones you'll find giving up their vacation time to go volunteer to help when Hurricane Katrina or a similar disaster occurs; the ones who are getting up at 0330 on Christmas Eve morning to go distribute Christmas baskets to the needy. They're the men and women the sergeant depends on to handle the slightly crazy lady who always calls to report Japanese soldiers hiding in her basement (they're the last holdouts from WWII, you know), and yes, they're the ones who politely (or maybe not so politely) listen to why you didn't notice the change in the speed limit as they write you a ticket. (A note here--if a person acts like theyre willing to listen to what I have to say when I pull them over, I usually let them go with a warning, something which has caused me problems in the past with my supervisors. But the point is, cops are as human as you are; if you confront them with an attitude, don't be surprised if they respond in kind.)
What kind of people do they become? Generally, the older they become, the more cynical they get, because they keep seeing the same people, with a few new faces thrown in every year, commit the same crimes, and get turned loose by the same courts that wind up tying their hands, and the cesspool just keeps getting bigger and deeper, and they are less and less able to protect those they are sworn to protect from the predators in our society. But, like everything else, it depends on the individual.

We have one officer whom I honestly have no idea how he keeps it together, except for his strong faith in God. His son was born with a disease that necessitated multiple surgeries from the time he was born, until, at the age of six, he had to have both legs amputated; but I saw this same officer, who had all this heaped on his plate at home, in addition to all a cop normally sees and deals with, take money out of his own pocket to feed a terrified and starving young drug addict, before he took him to jail on an outstanding warrant. Yet this officer's work, professionalism, and performance was such that he was named Officer of the Year.

There are officers currently serving, who have sons and grandsons (EDIT: or daughters/granddaughters) who are cops. They serve as a matter of pride in their profession, and family tradition, and for them, service as a cop is an honor and an obligation to the community they live in.

On the darker side of the coin, I have seen too many officers use weapons never fired in anger to take their own lives, and they are as much casualties as any soldier on a battlefield. The job causes a lot of stress, because officers can't always talk about what they see, and the good guys don't always win. The next traffic stop you make may be your last, no matter how careful you are.

[This message has been edited by Vonov (edited 02-09-2007).]

thank you, vonov. i very much appreciate your taking the time to answer as you have.

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: thank you, vonov. i very much appreciate your taking the time to answer as you have.

You're welcome. Sorry to be so long-winded about it, lol...