If you're just fishing for ideas say so.
Most of us on here are "fixers".. admittedly some more than others.

If you already have an idea of where you want to go or what your character is supposed to do then fine. But to put out a blanket statement of "what is evil" it'll quickly decende into a philosophy debate.

Personally I think lane crashers are evil.. but some would think me evil for sniping at them with a rifle.

good and evil are neither personified nor absolute. hitler probably loved his dog. jesus likely killed to eat.
in the end, good and evil are subjective human constructs. they are value judgments we assign to acts and presumed intentions, and exist only in the mind of the observer.

while useful, dictionary definitions are often circular, using other words with similar meanings, which (no surprise here) often refer back to the original words. they rely on the likelihood of hitting on a word the reader already knows.

erudition may connote intelligence, but should not be confused with wisdom. write your book.
3rd post, i'm done here

So evil..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2058313056450546087

I find this funny as shhit

A modern liberal/PC freak will find it offensive

So am I evil?

quote Originally posted by Euterpe: second, while i also tend to believe, along with blacktree, that "It's generally accepted throughout humanity that selflessness is good and selfishness is bad," i have to wonder if there aren't any objectvists around.

I am a big fan of Ayn Rand, though she frustrates me. I agree with Objectivism's tenets of rational self interest, which will always bring what I like to call "collateral benefits"....I agree with the Libertarian aspects, but not the Secular Humanism aspects.

------------------
Who is John Galt?

quote faytmorgan said: anyhoo- well i think you are right about people (realistically) are not all the way on either spectrum. But i do have a problem with the society thing- you are right yet i think there is more to it then that- and i am trying to find an answer to that. yes it is society that makes evil BUT this evil that society makes- is pseudo- its not real. with that said- what is real? truly evil- non- biased thought that evil is as evil does as it were.

You refuse to see the truth which is sitting right in front of your face. And yet you ask us to be open-minded.

Good luck with that book. Maybe in another 9 years, you'll have the evil antagonist figured out.

quote Originally posted by lurker: good and evil are neither personified nor absolute. hitler probably loved his dog. jesus likely killed to eat. in the end, good and evil are subjective human constructs. they are value judgments we assign to acts and presumed intentions, and exist only in the mind of the observer. while useful, dictionary definitions are often circular, using other words with similar meanings, which (no surprise here) often refer back to the original words. they rely on the likelihood of hitting on a word the reader already knows. erudition may connote intelligence, but should not be confused with wisdom. write your book. 3rd post, i'm done here

thank you - i actually think i found what i was looking for. and for that - again- thank you for those of you who posted with intention of no pun inteneded good not evil.

quote Originally posted by faytmorgan: wrong - how much or zoroastrianism or greek mythology do you know of? slavik? budism? the vedas? tasism? or not even relgion but how much have you studied in anthropology? in the field or closed? your idea that its all from christianity- is o flawed i do not have all the time to teach you why it is. read more about the things i told i just wrote about. then maybe you can have a greater undertanding hten such a closemided point of view- btw i am not going ot argue this at all- you also are not following the rules of my thread. go back and read it please before you post again if at all.

I dont need to know anything except that the morals of judaism and christianity CAME BEFORE ANY OF THOSE BELIEFS / RELIGIONS

I believe they either based thiers off of christianity or pulled them out of thin air or a combo of the two of them.

I am following the rules in every way.

If I wasnt than I would of said: God gave us our morals and if you dont follow them your going to burn in hell and I dont care what you say.

I did not say that, I offered two different viewpoints even. I was offering some different points of view and was not forcing it down anyones throat
take my opinion or leave it!

I can already see any further discussion of this topic to you will be futile so I will not be returning.

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: I dont need to know anything except that the morals of judaism and christianity CAME BEFORE ANY OF THOSE BELIEFS / RELIGIONS.

well. so much for the idea that the internet makes a wide range of learning available to the otherwise ignorant.

I would think evil would be someone who abhors goodness....a character that gets sick to his stomach when he sees people who feel good or sees benevolence in another and it makes him shudder. Think of the line (Poe, I believe) "and abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is..."). Don't know if I got the contributor or the quote right, but hope it illustrates my point.
I know someone with this affliction would have some sort of mental defect, but, then, to go against all societical and moral conditioning one would have to have some sort of mental illness. But would that make them any less "evil"? Is Charles Manson any less evil because he may be insane?

quote Originally posted by faytmorgan: a fact btw is "fact • noun 1 a thing that is indisputably the case. 2 (facts) information used as evidence or as part of a report.

This does not answer my question. I asked about "proof", not fact. Is proof necessarily an element of fact? or vice versa?

I can point out the fact that video evidence shows that Rodney King was beaten by police officers. That, however, does not constitute proof that a crime was committed.

The simple fact is that on the subject of Good and Evil there is nothing but opinion. Various arguements attempt to support an opinion with various facts and the INTERPRETATION of those facts. Rodney King says he was attacked for no reason, the officers said he was on drugs, resisted arrest and represented a danger to the officers and the community and determined that any means necessary to bring him under control were required. Nobody disputes the facts, only their interpretation.

Hence, What is Good and what is Evil is never an absolute. Killing is not always evil. We are part of the food chain aren't we? Isn't it inherent in nature's design that we kill to live? Isn't it a fact that humans can only survive be eating organic material? And isn't it a fact that ALL organic material is a form of life (or made from one)? Hence, every tomato, chicken, or jar of honey we eat is the result of the death of some life form? And yet, you would never get an arguement that killing is wrong. So "facts" have no value in the interpretation of Good vs Evil WITHOUT the opinions on their interpretation.

And like it or not, Catholicism is one (of about 10,000 documented religions) interpretation of the facts. If you don't beleive in the Catholic interpretation of Good vs Evil, it's a free country. Just don't give a back handed knock on people who fell otherwise. I could just an easily dismiss Buddists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, etc etc etc. TRUE enlightenment comes from seeking out differing opinions to the one you currently have. That is how we grow.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I have to agree with 84Bill and Lurker. It's generally accepted throughout humanity that selflessness is good and selfishness is bad. But different societies disagree on the details. That's where things start getting subjective. Since good vs evil is really a "society vs self" type of thing, society (or more specifically, the collective subconscious) defines it. That definition can change greatly from one society to the next, and even during different time periods of the same society. Define your society, and by doing so you will have defined your good and evil.

Mihh... I duno about different societies disagreeing on the details.

Evil is never satisfied.

Societies are made of both good and evil but a real "good" hero will always rise above an evil society simply because he / she adapts so well yet finds ways of finding a "super power." So yeah, the "rulers" of society in general will have to be evil and in control in the eyes of the Hero but not necessarily the society itself. There should be a clash between the two at some point and the initial clash will difine the good and the evil.

Good though not satisfied will seek "just" compensation elsewhere and that in itself is all the satisfaction good truely requires. Good can then rest even if only in the attempt at rest, the effort and even in failure.

I say difine what makes the hero stronger, the degree of strength he has and how he uses that strength and it will automaticlly difine the evil, the degree of control evil has over the society and pretty much the entire society they both live in and what they are "fighting" over.

Ohh.... I just thought of a cool quote.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 12-27-2006).]

Just curious and I'm not going to debate you on it, Bill, but if you are attacked by someone that intends to kill you, and you defend yourself killing the attacker in self defense, does that:

1) Make YOU evil
2) Constitute an Evil act
3) Make you a victim
4) All of the above
5) None of the above

BTW, I don't think ANY of the above answers are necessarily right or wrong, that's why I'm not going to debate it, I just wonder what you think after your last post.

John STricker

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I disagree because that right there is the justification evil will always use to get away with murder.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I disagree because that right there is the justification evil will always use to get away with murder.

Ever step on a spider?

Did either of you read my first post in its entirety?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: BTW, I don't think ANY of the above answers are necessarily right or wrong, that's why I'm not going to debate it, I just wonder what you think after your last post. John STricker

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Ever step on a spider?

Yes, I did.

That's why I asked. I was hoping for a clear cut, no nonsense answer. To be honest, I couldn't follow what you wrote in the first post other than we are all evil so apparently there is no good. I guess. As I said, I couldn't follow it, hence the question.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Did either of you read my first post in its entirety?

All in all we are all evil because this "place" is wrought evil.

Seems clear cut and straight to the point to me.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Yes, I did. That's why I asked. I was hoping for a clear cut, no nonsense answer. To be honest, I couldn't follow what you wrote in the first post other than we are all evil so apparently there is no good. I guess. As I said, I couldn't follow it, hence the question. John Stricker

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 12-27-2006).]

So no matter what anyone does, it's evil?

What, then, is the definition of good?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: All in all we are all evil because this "place" is wrought evil. Seems clear cut and straight to the point to me.

My definition
Good is the lack of evil.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: What, then, is the definition of good? John Stricker

---------------------------------
"Without evil there can be no good, without good there is only evil."

Circular logic. Not a definition. Not even valid logic. It's OK. If you don't know, you can really just say so. I'm out of here.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: My definition Good is the lack of evil.

Yes I do know.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Circular logic. Not a definition. Not even valid logic. It's OK. If you don't know, you can really just say so. I'm out of here. John Stricker

I believe it's a paradox, a false or contradictory statement that can not be true yet is true.

An example of what "I mean" Yin and Yan. One does not exist without the other and together they comprise the whole.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Yes, I did. That's why I asked. I was hoping for a clear cut, no nonsense answer. To be honest, I couldn't follow what you wrote in the first post other than we are all evil so apparently there is no good. I guess. As I said, I couldn't follow it, hence the question. John Stricker

Ditto

quote Originally posted by Toddster: That's like saying not creating is the same as destroying.

No, you said that. What I said was "Good is the lack of evil." However you are saying something completely different. You are definatly not in line with my thinking or philosophy as is often the case.

quote You can't define something by the lack of something else.

Mr. Zwicky came up with a theory based on just that.

quote Good is not the absense of anything it is the PRESENCE of.....{fill in the blank}

Good is the lack of evil.

I have given you a philosophy a theory that contradict your above quote yet you still try to deny that this paradox does indeed exist.

Sure you can say good is the presence of good. The problem then is how can you tell? How can you prove it? How can you say good is good when there is absolutly no way to prove it other than you say that "This is good... so from hence forth and forever after THIS WILL BE CONSIDERED GOOD"?
How can you say it is good, difine good or even the degree of good without evil being present to use as a comparison? Who would even want to know if good existed if that is all there is? In other words, why would one even bother to question the existance of good when there is nothing else to use as a comparison? Evil must exist. Okay but wait!
What is evil?
Sure you can say evil is the presence of evil. The problem then is how can you tell? How can you prove it? How can you say evil is evil when there is absolutly no way to prove it other than you say that "This is evil... so from hence forth and forever after THIS WILL BE CONSIDERED EVIL"? How can you say it is evil, difine evil or even the degree of evil without good being present to use as a comparison? Who would even want to know if evil existed if that is all there is? In other words, why would one even bother to question the existance of evil when there is nothing else to use as a comparison? Okay BUT...

Your definition has no comparison only an unquestonable absolute where there is only one.

I say.... Good IS the absense of evil and evil is the absense of good it may not be "valid" in your complicated world but in my easy to understand and comprehend "Keep It Simple Stupid" world it is valid, true and fact.

There is alot more I want to say but I've got alot of work to do, only a very small amount of time to do it in and I don't want to waste it all chasing my tail.

Bill, you're off your meds again.

Just because it all makes sense inside your head does not make it logical. The study of epistemology requires an arguement that can not be denied from step one to step two. YOU come in here and make a blanket statement that "Good is the lack of Evil" and call it a day.

Some of us here actually find this question interesting enough to engage in a serious thought experiment. Please stop blabbering and read the scientific process...and perhaps bone-up on ontology a little; "what "exists" is that which can be represented". Hence, if Good exists, it must BE something, not the absense of something. Got it?

Gotta run, but I'll chim in later with my experiment.

quote Originally posted by faytmorgan: So the question in its simplest form I can come up with is what is TRULY evil and what motivates one or something to be this way (apart from the flawed idea of the first sin)? RULES OF THIS TOPIC First off- these are the rules of this discussion as I see fit to attempt to stop meaningless badgering and false insight toward a goal or an idea. 1. BE OPEN-MINDED!!! Proof, not opinion. Your argument needs proof to be a fact- so if you do not have proof to show that your opinion is a fact then I recommend you leave this discussion before a moderator deletes your from the forum or thread by the least for you not being open-minded.

adjective


Definition: Good

1. of high quality: of a high quality or standard, either on an absolute scale or in relation to another or others
The meal wasn't good.
He'll make a very good doctor.
I smashed one of my good plates.


2. suitable: having the appropriate qualities to be something or to fit a purpose
Futons make good chairs as well as beds.
The bicycle is good for short trips.


3. skilled: possessing the necessary skill or talent to do something
I'm not a very good driver.
She's good at science.


4. virtuous: having or showing an upright and virtuous character
You're a good man, Joe.


5. kind: having or showing a kind and generous disposition
She was always very good to me.


6. affording pleasure: affording pleasure or comfort
He's a man who insists on the finer things in life: good food, good books, and the theater.


7. undamaged: having undergone no deterioration or damage
I smelled the meat and found it was still good.


8. ample: sufficiently large, or providing more than enough of something
Between them they have a good income.


9. honorable: worthy of honor or high esteem
They come from a good family.


10. valid: acceptable as true or genuine and sufficient for the purpose
There had better be a good explanation for this mess.
Don't travel unless your insurance is good.


11. helpful: helping somebody to organize thoughts or make decisions
She gave me some good advice.


12. pleasant: pleasant to look at
Don't let her good looks distract you from her intelligence.


13. beneficial: beneficial to health or well-being
Eating lots of fruit is good for you.
It's good to talk.


14. favorable: suitable and likely to produce the right results or conditions
a good time to take a vacation


15. meticulous: careful and thorough
Take a good look around.


16. financially advantageous: financially or commercially advantageous or reliable
I made a few good investments last year.


17. genuine: that is what it appears to be
a good dollar bill


18. obedient: well behaved and obedient
The children are always good when we take them out.


19. well-mannered: socially correct
very good behavior


20. able to do more: remaining in operation or effect, or able to continue doing something
The car will be good for another 6,000 miles.


21. able to pay: able to pay or contribute something or to allow a sum to be drawn
He's good for at least a thousand dollars.


22. guaranteed to be paid: describes a debt that will be paid in full
a good debt


23. producing result: able to produce a particular result
John is always good for a laugh.


24. sizable: considerable in extent or size
a good selection of books on computers


25. full: at least a particular time or length
It's a good 30 years since we met.


26. within bounds: inside the required area for a shot, throw, or pass to be allowed
The umpire said that the catch was good.


27. used in exclamations: used in exclamations of surprise, dismay, or other strong feelings ( informal )
Good heavens! I've won first prize!


28. healthy: well in health ( informal )
"How are you?" "I'm good, thanks."




interjection

Definition:

expressing satisfaction: used to express satisfaction or pleasure in something that has just been said or to confirm it
"They've just arrived." "Good."




noun

Definition:

1. beneficial effect: something resulting in a beneficial effect or state
the common good
What good will complaining do?


2. goodness: the quality of being good


3. positive part: the positive part or aspect of something
You have to take the good with the bad in this agreement.


4. something worth having: something worth having or achieving
the future good of the nation


5. item of merchandise: an item for sale or use, often one produced for later consumption


[ Old English gôd < Germanic, "unite"]


be (all) to the good to be to somebody's benefit


be up to no good to be in the process of doing or planning something wrong or illegal (informal)


as good as virtually or nearly
If we go in there, he's as good as dead.


for good permanently from the time in question
They've gone for good.


give as good as you get to contend as effectively as your opponent


good and completely and entirely (informal)
I'll get up in the morning when I'm good and ready, and not before.


make good to become successful, often after an unpromising start


make good (on) something

1. to perform something successfully
We must make good our attempt to win the trophy.

2. to carry out something intended or promised
She made good on her promise to repay the money on time.

3. to compensate for something, especially for damage or loss

4. to demonstrate the truth or correctness of something
If you cannot make good on these charges, the defendant will not stand trial.


never had it so good to have not possessed so many benefits before


to the good richer by a particular amount of money
By the end of the day, we were 50 dollars to the good.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
adjective

Definition: evil

1. morally bad: profoundly immoral or wrong


2. harmful: deliberately causing great harm, pain, or upset
This evil act is clearly the work of terrorists.


3. causing misfortune: characterized by, bringing, or signifying bad luck
an evil omen


4. malicious: characterized by a desire to cause hurt or harm
an evil mood


5. devilish: connected with the devil or other powerful destructive forces
evil spirits


6. disagreeable: very unpleasant
What an evil smell!




noun (plural e·vils)

Definition:

1. wickedness: the quality of being profoundly immoral or wrong


2. force causing harmful effects: the force believed to bring about harmful, painful, or unpleasant events
a struggle between good and evil


3. something evil: a situation or thing that is very unpleasant, harmful, or morally wrong
the social evil of alcoholism
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All those definitions for just two four letter words. Pretty powerful words there.

"Proof, not opinion" you say.

Well for me to give my definition on the words I can not meet your "rules". So anything I may write on the subject would invalidate my understanding and therefore make MY definition useless to you.

That is so Evil!!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Bill, you're off your meds again.

How typical.

quote Just because it all makes sense inside your head does not make it logical. The study of epistemology requires an arguement that can not be denied from step one to step two. YOU come in here and make a blanket statement that "Good is the lack of Evil" and call it a day.

I know it when I see it and I call it as it is.

quote Some of us here actually find this question interesting enough to engage in a serious thought experiment. Please stop blabbering and read the scientific process...and perhaps bone-up on ontology a little; "what "exists" is that which can be represented". Hence, if Good exists, it must BE something, not the absense of something.

The problem is you can not engage well but you sure as hell can attack. You are an evil little man...

quote Got it?

All that and a bag of chips... Want some?

quote Gotta run, but I'll chim in later with my experiment.

You are hardly worth agruing with but okay.. TTFN

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 12-28-2006).]