...

nevermind...

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 11-28-2006).]

Wouldn't a Stealth precision flying team (like the Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, Canadian Snowbirds) be something to see? Have to do something to make them noisy tho, so you could detect them coming.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: F-22 has no "A" designation. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22.htm The only thing I cold think of is there is a "B" model with improved capabilities that wasn't declassified. Then the plane would be flat...

Err wrong.

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=199

That's an Air Force website, not sure how official fas.org is. But anyway, you tend to learn these things when you fix the friggin jets. As a crew chief we are responsible for the forms and after writing F-22A a million times on a 781 I figured out that it does in fact have an "A" designation. Just like I am getting used to writing A-10C now whereas a few months ago it was an A-10A.

About the angles, they don't flatten the entire plane they just take away the angles to officially declassify it.

[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 11-21-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Brian Lamberts: Wouldn't a Stealth precision flying team (like the Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, Canadian Snowbirds) be something to see? Have to do something to make them noisy tho, so you could detect them coming.

Somehow I dont think they would make very good demonstration aircraft. There flown NORMALLY on the verge of out of control. I never did understand the ' fighter ' designation either. There a light bomber or attack aircraft. If I remember they have no air to air weapons at all, a 'real' fighter plane I think would kill one in a few seconds. I remember one exhibition flight at an airshow, i think in Washington, where they were doing some stunt flying and a wing separated sending the wreckage into a subdivision.

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: But anyway, you tend to learn these things when you fix the friggin jets. As a crew chief we are responsible for the forms and after writing F-22A a million times on a 781 I figured out that it does in fact have an "A" designation. Just like I am getting used to writing A-10C now whereas a few months ago it was an A-10A.

Yea, I worked on the friggin jets too. 4 years. All kinds in the transient ramp but was trained on C-141B's. Supported them for another 6.
Just because you do something a million times doesn't make it right.

In 1990, the aircraft was modified to incorporate the Low Altitude Safety and Targeting Enhancements (LASTE) System. This system provided computer-aided capabilities including a Ground Collision Avoidance System (GCAS) to issue warnings of impending collision with the ground, an Enhanced Attitude Control (EAC) function for aircraft stabilization during gunfire and a Low Altitude Autopilot system, and computed weapon delivery solutions for targeting improvements. The LASTE computer system installation added the requirement for an Operational Flight Program (OFP) to provide the computer control software necessary to perform the above functions.
The B model.

Commencing in 1999, the A/OA-10 fleet was additionally upgraded with the installation of an Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation System (EGI). In conjunction with this aircraft modification, a replacement Control Display Unit (CDU) will be installed with its own separate OFP software.
The C model.

quote About the angles, they don't flatten the entire plane they just take away the angles to officially declassify it.

That statement makes no sense unless you're talking about what they do at Davis Monthan. If they removed any angles, the plane wouldn't fly. To de-classify the plane it just takes paperwork.

So you work at Holloman now?

Obviously not. They don't fly the planes after declassifying them, they go to the bone yard.

You worked transient huh. Sounds tough.

Anyway, I posted the official Air Force site and you posted FAS.org. I win, you lose. Suck it up transient boy, there is an "A" designation to the F-22.

[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 11-22-2006).]

Damn, that one extra [-] didn't push you over to "ban" quite yet. God, what a grossly ridiculous argument we have here. "My link is better than yours"? FWIW, I trust fas.org much further than I do the AF website. The AF site has specs that aren't true to some planes, written by people that speak to the general public that really doesn't give half a **** . fas.org is made (most likely) by the people that work one on one with the things they talk about and is updated more often than once every decade.

And what exactly are you in the grand scheme of things, Black88GT?

------------------

'87 Fiero GT, Automatic, 153k miles, stock everything, just trying to make it all work again. :D

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: Obviously not. They don't fly the planes after declassifying them, they go to the bone yard.

Read what you wrote. Let's look at another plane: SR-71. It was flying for a few years before the government acknowledged it (and it was a slip of the tongue). It was a classified plane and then they declassified it, letting the public know about it. How many planes are flying right now that we don't know about? How long were unmanned planes flying, and the gov't denying them, before we knew about them?

One last thing about the two web sites. the AF looks more like a propoganda site whereas the FAS site even shows what armament goes where on your beloved A-10.

quote Originally posted by dmancheno: Personally I've always love these moded F-14s... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VF-1_Valkyrie

Off topic:

dmancheno: check this out:

http://www.theshadowchronicles.com/trailer.php?id=nateaser&size=480

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Read what you wrote. Let's look at another plane: SR-71. It was flying for a few years before the government acknowledged it (and it was a slip of the tongue). It was a classified plane and then they declassified it, letting the public know about it. How many planes are flying right now that we don't know about? How long were unmanned planes flying, and the gov't denying them, before we knew about them? One last thing about the two web sites. the AF looks more like a propoganda site whereas the FAS site even shows what armament goes where on your beloved A-10.

How many SR-71s are flying right now? Hell if I know. Do you know? So what the hell is the point?

The Air Force site is OFFICIAL. It really isn't that hard to understand.

Air Force site = official

FAS.org = unofficial

When it comes to aircraft designations I would tend to trust the Air Force. I don't know, call me crazy.

And lastly, shut the hell up falcon boy. This doesn't concern you. Run along now and crash another lawn dart. Maybe you're right, the AF site tries to tell us it's a good jet, it must be full of propaganda to try and pull that one over on us. I think the millionth 16 crash happened in Iraq this week, congrats on the record.

[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 11-28-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: And lastly, shut the hell up falcon boy. This doesn't concern you. Run along now and crash another lawn dart. Maybe you're right, the AF site tries to tell us it's a good jet, it must be full of propaganda to try and pull that one over on us. I think the millionth 16 crash happened in Iraq this week, congrats on the record.

You aren't the only guy to ever walk a flightline, Black88GT.

As for the A model designation, my memory says they removed the A designation, but I can't find anything on lockheed.com or Janes, and I might be confusing F/A-22 being changed. But in the end...who cares?

Flamberge

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: F-117's are given the "A" designation because it's technically classified as a "fighter (F)" and all fighters start at A

Let's go this route white you still can: where is the offical wording on this?

quote My friend worked 117s at Holloman. He said the way they declassify them is by taking a sledge hammer and "removing" all of the angles that make it stealth.

Do you realize how many and how much people are laughing at you for stating this and trying to back it up?
Trust the Air Force? I was in it for 10 years, been a US citizen all my life, and I still don't trust it. I have seen the $100 toilet seats. Tell me the AF site has more technical information than the FAS site.

quote You aren't the only guy to ever walk a flightline, Black88GT. As for the A model designation, my memory says they removed the A designation, but I can't find anything on lockheed.com or Janes, and I might be confusing F/A-22 being changed. But in the end...who cares? Flamberge

True on two points, unknown on the third.

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: And lastly, shut the hell up falcon boy. This doesn't concern you. Run along now and crash another lawn dart. Maybe you're right, the AF site tries to tell us it's a good jet, it must be full of propaganda to try and pull that one over on us. I think the millionth 16 crash happened in Iraq this week, congrats on the record.

I hope your banning is swift and painless. For my sake. I don't want to hear more of your childish BS... according to your profile I guess you work on planes yourself. I wonder how many pilots wish you would make some "fatal mistake" and relive them of the misery?

And no, F-16s aren't lawn darts. I'd love to see you even count a handful of crashes.

quote Originally posted by Falcon4: I hope your banning is swift and painless. For my sake.

for everyone's sake...

quote I don't want to hear more of your childish BS... according to your profile I guess you work on planes yourself. I wonder how many pilots wish you would make some "fatal mistake" and relive them of the misery? And no, F-16s aren't lawn darts. I'd love to see you even count a handful of crashes.

I don't know of any good mechanic that puts down the crashes of another kind of plane, especially in their own inventory.

I think you give the guy too much credit, putting the word "good" next to "mechanic" in that last phrase...

My point exactly.

quote Originally posted by Flamberge: You aren't the only guy to ever walk a flightline, Black88GT. As for the A model designation, my memory says they removed the A designation, but I can't find anything on lockheed.com or Janes, and I might be confusing F/A-22 being changed. But in the end...who cares? Flamberge

It is no longer the F/A-22, but is still referred to in ALL official AF pubs as F-22A, including tech data and 781s. But I guess FAS.org knows the real truth.

I liked the 16s when they first arrived, nice clean lines and designed to be a fighter from the ground up..

But that said, they don't exactly have the best track record hence the lawn dart nickname.

FYI
http://www.f-16.net/news_topic152.html

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: Banning? Laff. I'm better than you. I was one of the first people to click into this forum therefore I am better than the other countless thouands of people here too. I've crewed all sorts of really crappy jets but I've never touched an F-16. I haven't touched an F-16 because my ego won't let me, and anyone that disagrees with me is an idiot.

Fixed as I read it.

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: It is no longer the F/A-22, but is still referred to in ALL official AF pubs as F-22A, including tech data and 781s. But I guess FAS.org knows the real truth.

Again, it doesn't matter to me, either way. What do the TO's call them? (I know, they're not huge books anymore, but you get my idea.)

Flamberge
"Blip01"

Found one missing link: F-22B is a 2 seater trainer, per DOD 4120.15-L

And I did find official info on designations but if the plane is new, why would it have variants?

quote (5) Series Letter: Variants of a basic aircraft type are designated by a suffix letter. The first model always receives suffix "A" and subsequent series letters are to be assigned in strict sequence (omitting "I" and "O" to avoid confusion with numerals "1" and "0"). The series letter is actually a mandatory component of a conforming MDS, and therefore "plain" designations like "F-16" always designate the general type of aircraft and never a specific model. Of course, the sequence rule is often ignored and there are many designations with out-of-sequence suffixes (e.g. to designate a specific customer, like the "N" in F-16N designated "Navy") or even "special" suffixes as in AV-8B(R)+. It is not well defined, which kind of modifications actually mandate the assignment of a new series letter. In the more recent past, even extensive modifications to an aircraft type have sometimes not led to a different series designation, e.g. a currently produced F-16C is much different from an early production F-16C.

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: Just like I am getting used to writing A-10C now whereas a few months ago it was an A-10A.

FYI the A-10C (and OA-10C) started modifications on 12-Apr-04. You must have been working on unmodified ones or too dumb to realize the change for 2 years.

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 12-07-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Found one missing link: F-22B is a 2 seater trainer, per DOD 4120.15-L And I did find official info on designations but if the plane is new, why would it have variants? FYI the A-10C (and OA-10C) started modifications on 12-Apr-04. You must have been working on unmodified ones or too dumb to realize the change for 2 years.

Dude, give it up. I just dug up this thread to look at some stupid things Falcon4 said.

I think I know a little more about A-10s than you, I don't know, call me crazy. I have worked on them for almost 3 years now.

The A-10C started (read, 2 test level jets) at Eglin AFB. After some initial testing and working out some kinks they started modding more jets and sending them to Nellis AFB, NV for more testing after the mods were complete. The testing is still on going and that's where I first touched an A-10C. Now my unit is getting 3 a month until we deploy at the end of the year.

So in conclusion, you have no idea what you are talking about.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: Those are A-10 Thunderbolt (aka) "WartHog".... I LOVE THEM... edit: Why is one side "pylon thingie" painted black, and the other isn't?

Anyone ever heard one of these puppies shoot that big gun?

Think of when electricty arcs the zzzzzz it makes thats what it sounds like.... except faster.

Uranium tipped bullets that fire INSANELY fast.
I think I counted if one of those things held three missiles on each pod with one guidance pod the
A-10 would hold 30 missiles!

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: Dude, give it up.

Dude, get a life. I gave it up. You're the one who brought it back over a month later. You don't understand my question. Drop it.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Dude, get a life. I gave it up. You're the one who brought it back over a month later. You don't understand my question. Drop it.

What question? Let's see, you asked where is the F-117B. Doesn't exist. Then you tried to say the F-22 doesn't have an A designation, which we have shown for a fact that it does. Then you said a General had a personal A-10, which he didn't (every jet has a name of a pilot on the side, and the chromed gun meant it was probably a demo jet, those are things you learn on the flightline). Then what was your last question, why does the F-22 have an A designation if its new? Hmm, well let's see, it's called ...upgrades! The F-15 started with an A designation as well, but it was then upgraded enough to give the new model a "C" designation, with two seaters being D's. E model F-15s are vastly different thus given the E model designation. I am sure with your vast knowledge (and no google) you could give an in depth report on the differences between the models.

So in other words, there will eventually be an F-22C, or maybe not like the F-117A never was upgraded enough to reach a new designation. Given the capabilities of the F-22 I can't see any major upgrades like the F-15A's and A-10A's got.

[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 01-26-2007).]

Last post in this thread unless challenged.

I contacted someone with authority that knows military aircraft. He went into more detail with what I posted earlier (see bottom quote) by saying all aircraft do have the series designation. It's generally common practice just to call an aircraft without it's series. Usually there's a long time span between 3 sequential designations and the latest is the one usually referred to.
BTW, the official site only says A-10A once and doesn't talk about the C model.

quote Then you said a General had a personal A-10, which he didn't (every jet has a name of a pilot on the side, and the chromed gun meant it was probably a demo jet, those are things you learn on the flightline).

Next rebuttle: the general's plane. I should have put quotes around personal but do you think a commanding officer will just pick any vehicle from the fleet and ride around in it? No, from the staff car to the vehicle they use to keep their wings. Yes, the plane had the general's name on the side. Nice script too. Does he have the authority to do what he wants to the plane? To an extent, yes. The barrell is worthless if he tried to fire it but it did look good.

quote The F-15 started with an A designation as well, but it was then upgraded enough to give the new model a "C" designation

How many upgrades does it take to make a new designation? Show it to me.

quote E model F-15s are vastly different thus given the E model designation. I am sure with your vast knowledge (and no google) you could give an in depth report on the differences between the models.

F-15 info I'll use is in the site I like: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm I don't want to compile the list here when there's a perfectly good one there. Besides, I don't know that much detail about the F-15. BTW, the B model is a two seater, in case you don't know which it seems you don't.

quote Let's see, you asked where is the F-117B. Doesn't exist.

I like to keep the conspiracy theory going, thank you, even though I debunked it.

quote So in other words, there will eventually be an F-22C, or maybe not like the F-117A never was upgraded enough to reach a new designation. Given the capabilities of the F-22 I can't see any major upgrades like the F-15A's and A-10A's got.

Look at it this way: there's been so much advancement in technology a new plane has been built, surpassing everything in the inventory. It won't be long before new tech is developed (reverse technology and all that...) and that plane gets mods and yet another plane will surpass it.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Found one missing link: F-22B is a 2 seater trainer, per DOD 4120.15-L And I did find official info on designations but if the plane is new, why would it have variants? FYI the A-10C (and OA-10C) started modifications on 12-Apr-04.

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 01-29-2007).]

How many upgrades does it take to reach a new designation? That's determined by the Pentagon. The F-15C had major avionics upgrades and later engine upgrades. The A-10 went from many switches to a glass cockpit and added communication mods. Not sure about 16s, never worked on them. E model 15s are very different, from larger stab actuators to better engines to CFTs that extend range to various other differences in avionics since its a multi-role fighter.

And the infamous "General's private jet" - it's funny if you think he can just do whatever he wants with an airplane. Not even General's have that kind of authority. Now if he gave a good reason for wanting to do something then yes, but to simply take an A-10 and go fly it wherever he pleases - not a chance in hell. Most General's fly once in a blue moon to keep their flying status active to receive the extra pay. Again, things you learn on the flightline.

No one calls them "F-15C's" on the line but F-15E's are referred to as "E models" in the community. Maintainers call them 15s, 16s, A-10s, pilots call them Eagles, Vipers, and Hogs.

Given how new the A-10C is people do refer to them as "C models" but once they are all modded people will drop that.

I'm really not trying to talk smack but this is pretty funny considering I was red X qualified on 15s and now A-10s and this clown is trying to tell me about the damn jets I have crewed since '01.

[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 01-29-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: And the infamous "General's private jet" - it's funny if you think he can just do whatever he wants with an airplane. Not even General's have that kind of authority. Now if he gave a good reason for wanting to do something then yes, but to simply take an A-10 and go fly it wherever he pleases - not a chance in hell. Most General's fly once in a blue moon to keep their flying status active to receive the extra pay. Again, things you learn on the flightline.

Reread what I said. I didn't say he could do whatever he wanted to. Regs have changed and things like that might have been eliminated, just like nose art.

To get their hours pilots do have flexibility to go wherever they want. I've had many instances where they "weather shop". They call the weather station to find where there's good weather to golf and go there. Change the flight plan isn't a big deal. Haven't you noticed golf bags going in the storage? Don't believe me? Go to the weather station and ask.

How many hours are needed to keep wings? What's the max hours they can fly? If you enjoy it and are a general, would you fly as often as you can? I would.

Stop giving me the barracks lawyer version and show me facts. If you've worked the line that long, you should be able to quote the regs, not just say what you know.

Barracks lawyer? It's common sense! Generals can't take fighter planes on golfing trips. Period. Now, can they go cross country for a valid reason and bring their clubs to play while they are there? Yes. Happened a few times for Air Force academy graduations. For the most part though after 9/11 things changed in regards to that kind of stuff. Much more alert and CAP missions. As for hours they need to maintain flying status, have no clue, I think it is just one sortie (I could be mistaken since I am not a pilot). General's rarely fly, at least on 15s and A-10s. They simply don't have the time, most people don't make it that high anyway, it's not like every base has 20 General's that fly on it. Langley is ACC Headquarters so maybe there they had General's that flew a lot, but at Eglin they had zero, at Tyndall they had 1 and he retired. Full bird Colonel's maybe fly once a week.

And contrary to popular belief the golf bags are not put in travel pods. On 15s they will fit in bay 5 (behind the seat) of C models, which they would put them in there on occasion, but on A-10s chocks, tool boxes, and other equipment needed for recovering the aircraft are put in the travel pods. There aren't many golf courses in Saudi or Afghanistan.