quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Well, I wouldn't say smoking is a right, but does a business owner have a right to run their business the way they wish? We are talking about a legal product here.

of course not. just ask OSHA or the FDA.
tho, I understand the concern. I am a smoker. I dread the day I can't smoke after dinner, while finishing my beer.
but, the solution is easy: be a club - not a public resturant or bar. when its members only - many "public" laws disappear. I am sure you will see more of this happening in areas where smoking is not allowed in "public" areas.

That is EXACTLY what happened in Olathe, KS (by Kansas City). Now residents are ticked off they can't go in the club because it's private without buying a membership. Once again, be careful what you ask for people, you just might get it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: of course not. just ask OSHA or the FDA. tho, I understand the concern. I am a smoker. I dread the day I can't smoke after dinner, while finishing my beer. but, the solution is easy: be a club - not a public resturant or bar. when its members only - many "public" laws disappear. I am sure you will see more of this happening in areas where smoking is not allowed in "public" areas.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Its really simple....they put it to a vote...more than once...and the no smoking won. Case closed. As to smoking being a right....thats the same excuse people use about driving. You dont have a right to drive anything anywhere...its a privelige granted to you. Things you have a right to are breathing, sleeping, eating, to seek employment, marry ..... etc.

I tend to think smoking *is* a right. It's a personal choice, which is where I think our government is overstepping its bounds a WAAAAAAY too much. I think the government needs to entirely get out of the personal management business and stick to defense, transportation and laws that DON'T affect a person's right to live their lives as they see fit, including smoking, driving, gay marriage or whatever a person wants to do in the privacy of their own home. As for public smoking I'm conflicted, because frankly, I *enjoy* not having to smell it, or being able to go to a bar and not come home stinking of cigarette smoke. I personally love that. BUT, just because *I* like that does NOT give me the right to tell someone else they can't do it in my presence. I think it needs to be left 100% to the owner of a business whether they want to allow that or not, and let the public decide if they want to patronize that business.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: That is EXACTLY what happened in Olathe, KS (by Kansas City). Now residents are ticked off they can't go in the club because it's private without buying a membership. Once again, be careful what you ask for people, you just might get it. John Stricker

go to another place. I'm sure there are plenty public places they can go. I understand some people feeling slighted, because they dont wanna join a club - but thats what clubs are all about. are these clubs because of smoking rules?

quote Originally posted by CoryFiero: OK how about a deal.. If anytime anyone in any restaurant, bar, ect. wanted to smoke he had to ask every person in there if it would bother them. If ONE person says yes, then no smoking. If nobody cares, then smoke up. I bet everywhere would be nonsmoking.

A deal would be a way to make everyone satisfied. We will never make everyone happy. You are not offering much of a deal. Perhaps you do not know what a deal is. A deal is where everyone compromises. What compromises are you offering in your deal? A deal is supposed to be fair. Are you being fair?
How about this deal? What if fifty percent of the non-smokers said it would not bother them? You are asking for 100%. I am willing to meet you half way.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 12-11-2006).]

quote Originally posted by CoryFiero: OK how about a deal.. If anytime anyone in any restaurant, bar, ect. wanted to smoke he had to ask every person in there if it would bother them. If ONE person says yes, then no smoking. If nobody cares, then smoke up. I bet everywhere would be nonsmoking.

Here's my counter offer.

We're both in a restaurant that clearly says outside the door that smoking is allowed. I light a cigar. If you don't like it, you leave. You had the choice to come in the place from the git-go, now live with your choices and quit whining about it. If it's that big a deal to you, don't come in places that allow smoking and drive them all out of business. Capitalism at work. Free choice at work.

John Stricker

What about those families with annoying children? This is by far worse than a wiff of smoke when going out to eat. My wife and I headed out to a local place and the family next to use let their 5 year old just go on and on. Maybe we should ban children next

J.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: What about those families with annoying children? This is by far worse than a wiff of smoke when going out to eat. My wife and I headed out to a local place and the family next to use let their 5 year old just go on and on. Maybe we should ban children next

Nah, ban parents who won't discipline their children.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: What other place? The whole city is no smoking indoors except in a private location. My point was, the people VOTED for this, now they're whining about not being able to go to the restaurants they want to go to. They asked for it, they got it, now they have to live with it. John Stricker

LOL - thats GREAT! I love the fact that non-smokers asked for no-smoking, so the places that wanted smokers went private, and are now excluding non-smokers. and, even if the non-smokers joined a private club - they now have to sit in a place thats completely filled with smoke & smokers! ahahah!

are you saying there are no non-smoking resturants?! they ALL went private?! !!WOW!! I'd expect this more from bars than restuarants.

my real problem is I smoke. but hate smokers...I'm on both sides. I hate to smoke before I eat, but love to smoke after I eat....no rule will EVER satisfy me.

quote Originally posted by dguy: Nah, ban parents who won't discipline their children.

Im with you on that. If parents dont discipline their children, they should have them taken away. Theres no middle ground anymore. Either they totally dont give a damn what their kids do or they abuse / beat them all the time.

I'm 'generally' a non-smoker. I have a few on the weekends when I go out.
I don't like to hang out in smoky places for too long.
I think public places should be non-smoking with designated smoking areas/rooms only.

But:
Calgary is also going full non-smoking as of January '2007.
Initially the city council voted to go non-smoking as of January '2008 to give owners a chance to adjust to the new bylaw.
Then the council changed their mind about a month ago and decided to move up this date to January '2007.
To top it off, owners who didn't already build a smoking room prior to the council vote, will not be allowed to do so now.

So here is my problem:
You are a restaurant owner who has invested (put number here $1,000,000?) into your place. You spent the money and you OWN it.
You think you're calling the shots, as long as you abide by the laws of the land.
One day a bunch of dried up old fogies on the city council decide that you can't allow your patrons to light up, OR provide accommodations for them to be able to do so. Essentially they dictate to you who your clientele must be.
To top it off, these beaurocrats are allowed to change their mind on the effective date of the new rules, but you, the restaurant and bar OWNERS have no say in this.
YOU are not even allowed to build a designated smoking area because you weren't proactive prior to the vote.

What is that smell? Dictatorship?

Now, I could side with this bylaw if cigarettes were autlawed altogether, i.e. you could not purchase them anywhere (a debate for another time).
Then (and only then) it would make sense that you should not be able to smoke them.
BUT, as long as the government allows the sale of smokes, how can another government disallow their use??

It would be like selling alcohol but not letting people drink it.
Or perhaps selling cars and not letting people drive them because too many people die on the roads each year (I know, some people will disagree with this analogy).

Where's the balance and fairness?
Better yet, where is the freedom when 15 old farts can make virtually any selfish decisions that affect thousands?

[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 12-12-2006).]

How does it run off your business if all restaurants / bars in your state have to follow the same rules. I like the idea of making them ' private ' clubs where the owner can make his own rules. People who eat out will still be eating out. So what if a few diehards decide there going to eat at home the rest of their lives because they cant smother anyone with their smoke. It will soon be made up by bringing the ones in that wouldnt come in before because of the smoke.

And, let's face it, business owners are a minority. They can't get enough votes to either over rule the council or have them removed from office. Smokers accept the fact, thinking they will have other means to enjoy their smokes.... but what they don't realize is that more and more freedoms are being taken away under the pretense of being "good for you".

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: And, let's face it, business owners are a minority. They can't get enough votes to either over rule the council or have them removed from office. Smokers accept the fact, thinking they will have other means to enjoy their smokes.... but what they don't realize is that more and more freedoms are being taken away under the pretense of being "good for you".

yup. and I cant wait till they outlaw Coffee....now that stuff stinks.

only a matter of time before you won't be able to have coffee, fried foods, junk food, beer, etc... All so you can live longer and enjoy life? HUH?

I believe the radial left wingers out there have lost touch with reality. They want to push their beliefs on everyone else and they are using the courts to do so. What happens when someone doesn't get what they want? They sue and everyone has to change. Most of us don't care and don't notice, but really... this is silly. Let me give you an example, not related to smoking.

Here in my town (lots of snow in the winter). Our city council has decided that snowmobiles are not allowed on the streets. We have trails running through town, but to get to the trail you must HAUL your snowmobile to the trail. The reason was that "too many" people were complaining about snowmobile traffic and noise. So the city said "no more snowmobiles on the street". A typical heavy handed approach. A minority of citizens said they don't like snowmobiles and they used the city council to ban them. The snowmobilers that were considerate, driving quiet, clean snowmobiles had their rights taken away from them. And once you lose something, it is very difficult to get it back.

I am proposing that the city sell trail access permits. This way you can legally get to the trail from your house. Of course this will not fly, because you have the same handful of people complaining to the city council about the noise, pollution, traffic, etc. These same people haven't driven on a snowmobile and/or seen what new technology had brought about in the areas of concern.

I am sure if you asked every member of the community, they wouldn't care about snowmobiles, but these same people wouldn't care enough to head to the polls or be part of the voice for the snowmobilers. So the minority of those against snowmobiles win out..... bye bye freedom.

What really happens is that the city is hurt by this. Local snowmobilers head outside of town, taking their money with them (food, gas clothing, parts, accessories). The local businesses that were supported by the snowmobilers are closing or not able to offer the proper services because of the lack of patrons.

But, we have a walmart...sigh....

long rant.. sorry.

J.

A perfect example of the wrong solution to a problem.

I can understand it if they ban them because of the damage they do to asphalt, but noise and traffic concerns? Just apply the same regulations as for motorcycles or cars. Signals not used? Ticket them. Illegally loud exhaust and they are driving on streets? Ticket them. Leave the good guys alone and target the ones behaving badly. I'd love to see the cops around here actually enforce noise ordinances against motorcycles. Get a group that booms down our street on occasion that rattle your whole house and you can hear for miles. If you car exhaust sounds hi performance they are all over you, if you have a Harley type bike that sounds like you hooked the exhaust up to a rock concert sound system... no problem. Sound system that you can hear 100 feet away is a ticket. Exhaust on a motorcycle you can hear 2 miles away... no problem. When I worked for a local city one of the mechanics had a Harley with aftermarket pipes. He worked on the cop cars, and you could hear him from the shop all the way out to the freeway a couple of miles away when he left work. None of them even commented.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: only a matter of time before you won't be able to have coffee, fried foods, junk food, beer, etc... All so you can live longer and enjoy life? HUH? I believe the radial left wingers out there have lost touch with reality. They want to push their beliefs on everyone else and they are using the courts to do so. What happens when someone doesn't get what they want? They sue and everyone has to change. Most of us don't care and don't notice, but really... this is silly. Let me give you an example, not related to smoking.

well, theres a funny thing at work here. many people have created an easy life for themselves. they found a spouse, and they have a easy life toegther. they have kids. these kids will have an easy time. there is no real need for any self control. everything is provided, on demand. now, these kids are 18. a whole world of vices is opened up to them. so, to prevent these self-indulgent people from destroying themselves - bans are employed.
also - when I say easy life - I DONT mean rich people.

I dont have much experience with snowmobiles, theyre rare around here. Closest thing I can relate them too are jet skis. It only takes a few to ruin it for the most. You all know the majority of jet skiers are noisy, daring and reckless in their operation. It would be smarter to really come down on inappropriate use rather than outright banning them. They sound a little stupid banning cars because one of them broke a muffler.

When I go out its almost always to Fox & Hound or Dave & Buster's. My buddies and I are able to shoot pool using regulation size tables and nice equipment while having some drinks. Fox & Hound has been slammed with corporate parties the past week so tonight we left and ended up in a local bar just up the street. We played several games, but the place was really smokey with all the people at the bar smoking. I don't smoke but my clothes after getting home reek of the stuff, fiercely. I didn't call the number posted to report violations, or complain. While as a non-smoker, I like the ban, I also think it is an infringement on private property owners rights. I didn't stay as long as I normally would because the place was so smokey. I'm guessing being a small local bar the owner just doesn't care and is letting the patrons smoke. The bartender was smoking too.