quote Originally posted by 86fierofun: Then the fact that you write: Blasphemous satire follows... goes to show that you have no interests in learning about God, that you have already rejected him, and you seem to have no problem with calling upon yourself God's anger.

Is that your Christian judgement of him?

quote Originally posted by 86fierofun: Do you listen to yourself? Am I a Jew, am I Islamic? No. I am a christian who is talking about Christianity. The Jews stumbled to follow God before Christ, why would you use them as the all knowing source on him? I am using God's words to talk about God. Then the fact that you write: Blasphemous satire follows... goes to show that you have no interests in learning about God, that you have already rejected him, and you seem to have no problem with calling upon yourself God's anger.

I dunno 'bout you, but *my* God invented humor, how could "he" do that without HAVING a sense of humor? And knows nothing of "anger"....isn't that a human emotion?

Taijiguy,

I know you didn't address me, but I have always considered us on friendly terms, so I am going to take the privilege of giving an answer and hope I didn't over-step.

Yes, there are emotions that we share with God (again, as described in the Bible). The difference being that God's application of them would always be perfect, where mine unfortunately are not. So, yes, God has a sense of humor and invented humor. (but, of course, He would never use it in a lewd, inappropriate way).

But God also knows A LOT about anger. Only with him, unlike me, it is always about the right thing and always expressed in the right way. Plus, we personally don't know much about His anger because of other attributes that He has that delay expression of it (longsuffering, mercy, love).

Regarding the "blasphemous satire", I didn't mind it. I found it a way to understand on a personal level what the writer was really thinking, and what his/her issues were. Then it gives an opportunity to give a biblical answer to the person's issues. Then the person can decide whatever they want. And if blasphemous after that, oh well. I am going to be kind to them anyway. (which would be a major difference than, say, certain muslims. And, in fairness, certain professed-christian groups through history).

My point was to try and step out of the faith and look at it from the outside. Then since christianity is an offshoot from judaism, try to show why jews think it's very NOT ok to consider Jesus as the Messiah and even worse... as the son of God. It just goes against everything in the old testament. To a jew who has read the old testament, and has had the mitzvah of reading torah (the old testament as originally written on the scrolls in ancient hebrew... no vowels), been through years of synagogue services, weekday and sabbath ones (where the congregation would argue about the meaning, not be told what something means), christianity looks like exactly what you are warned against in the bible. The idea of 'what could it hurt' to take Jesus as your savior? If your a jew, your under the law, lets see... taking another god before him... BAD idea. Breaking the commandments because someone says that guy over there says he fulfilled them when GOD told the people the commandments were forever and one day everyone would be under the law... not that it would be superceded. Let's see... Jewish God = Vengeful God who performs a smackdown on the jewish people when they stray from the law. Heck you even stated as much, it's happened over and over... now you want them to do it for some guy that says he is gods son in the flesh and others say he died for our sins? That's against the basic tenents of the faith... chrisitanity makes a more palitable religon for many, but a huge part of it is a 180 degree turn from judaism and the jewish god isn't a flipflopper

Vengeful god to loving god... mysterious unknowable god to god in the flesh... religon where you don't have to be of the faith to make it to the kingdom of heaven to one that takes the romans hell and turns it into a place of punishment where anyone not of the faith will burn forever... wtf? In judaism, the only ones bound by the rules are the Jews. They have a convenant, and God hasn't released them, never said anything about releasing them from those responsibilities. If your not jewish, doesn't mean you are getting punished because your wrong... just means you don't have the same set of rules. In judaism, your here to enjoy THIS life, live it well, do good, be good. It's not a test for the next life. So I guess the big question becomes... what if your living your life for the next one and there is none? You won't know you wasted your life worrying about the next one so it doesn't matter...

There were a LOT of jews at the time of Jesus that knew and studied the writings that christians now refer to as the "old testament". They were waiting for the Messiah and trusted that it was Jesus. There are plenty of jews alive today that have read the same writings and concluded that Jesus is the Messiah.


They had read that he would be referred to as Immanuel, which a jew would know means "God with us." That would render your idea of "...another God before him..." as an invalid objection, as it was their God in the flesh.

Any jew would have read repeatedly that "the LORD is good, for His mercy endureth forever." They wouldn't see a "smackdown God." They would see a HOLY God who was not to be taken lightly, but one "slow to anger, quick to forgive."

They would have read in their prophet Isaiah about the "lamb sacrificed for their sins". They would know that the prophet was precisely and obviously talking about a literal human who would function as the sacrificial lamb--like they had performed hundreds of times in their life.

They would know that non-jewish people were supposed to see the way the jewish people were treated by the actual, true God, and were supposed to then explain to the non-jew who He was, and how to have their sins paid for.
I suppose the ones that struggled were the ones that strayed from the actual writings of the torah and jewish prophets, and listened to the rabbis who made major contradictory rules to those writings. Jesus wouldn't fit what they had turned "the jewish religion" into, but he actually completely fulfilled exactly what the actual torah and jewish prophet writings were talking about.

And by the way, the jews that believed Jesus fulfilled what the prophecies predicted, and was the literal messiah, didn't do it because "what could it hurt". It was a major, major thing if they did it, with MAJOR consequences regarding family, job, social status, etc. Was the way it was back in Jesus day, and is still that way today (for devout, orthodox jews.)


And I did get your point to try and step out and look from the outside, and I thought it was a good one. I didn't find it upsetting or blasphemous. Those were real questions with real significant issues. I would imagine it is how a lot of people would really look at it.


Pyrthian, I apologize if this has strayed too far off the initial topic.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Is that your Christian judgement of him?

No, just a warning. it is not my place to judge.

Scott, you are making very strong assumptions without doing the reading. Read the old testement. Isaiah and the psalms make many many references to the Christ as the son of God coming in the flesh. God's law in the old testement did not just rule the Jews, it ruled the aliens living amoung them, as well as the converts to Judisim (there were some in the old testement). Keep in mind that the promise of Christ came all the way back from the time of adam and eve,

quote Genesis 3:1515 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [a] and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Again it was reinforced with abraham:

quote Genesis 17:2121 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

It wasn't untill Moses's time that the Jewish law as is known came into effect. Then from that time untill now the jews often made their own gods or rituals contrary to God's command. but that is why Jesus came, to die on the cross and pay for all our transgressions, and to give us the hope of everlasting life.

people can make references to whatever religion they want, even the speghetti whatever, but they never read the bible. before you tell my how contradictory it is, before you tell me it doesn't make sence, it doesn't say this that or the other thing, Read it. Go through and actually read it. You will find it is not contradictory, and I hope and pray that in reading it, you repent and believe.

And scott, seriously, read romans. the letter addresses pretty much exactly what you are asking about. it is not that long of a book.

God bless

[This message has been edited by 86fierofun (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So, what I've learned from this thread is, If you grow up in a society that hasn't heard of God, Jesus, the crucifixion and redemption and learned that you have to repent of your sins to be saved - you're going to hell. It doesn't matter if you know right from wrong and are a good person, because we are all sinners, so if you don't ask for forgiveness, you're going to hell. If you didn't know you had to ask forgiveness, too bad. You're going to hell anyway. So, you better stop worrying about entire civilizations condemned to eternal hellfire and start repenting yourself, or you're going to hell. Does that about cover it?

yes, thats what I was saying - its either this - OR - the existance of the church, and people spreading the word is a plague - if no-one heard the word - EVERYONE would be saved. image, being the person who saved ALL FUTURE PEOPLE by wiping out the church,all writings, and its followers? wouldnt that be MORE good than ANYTHING jesus did? not only saving all future people, but also dooming yourself to hell, for all of humanity. thats more of a sacrafice than jesus - he got to go to heavan. talk about dieing for sins, eh? and hell never gets another soul....

"AV8DAY, If you believe in God, an intelligent being who created all things, how can you believe that he would let his word get perverted? The bible is the inspired word of God, as written by the Holy Spirit."

This is what you asked me and though I do believe that thier is a higher power, it's easy to see how His word became perverted, it was perverted by men, by us, by humans. He was the son of God come to earth to teach us the word of God. That's all well and good, He would have gotten the word right. But He died, maybe not of natural causes but He was human and humans die. This is where the poopoo hits the fan. He was survived by his disciples, the Saints. He taught them, probably very well, and they tried to teach others but, like anyone who has played that game where you speak a sentence in one persons ear and they pass it on to another and another, somewhere you end up hearing purplemonkeydishwasher. What I mean is that the disciples taught others and others taught others soon they were so many different version of Jesus' words the need arose to make one single version. And so a group of men decided what would be included in the official Bible, they also excluded certain things. The problem I have is: these are men with no connetion to the man that was Jesus, with no connetion to His disciples, and they got to, essentially, decide what it would mean to be Christian. When you read the bible you don't read the words of Christ as they were spoke by Jesus but rather a version interpreted by men who, we can never know, whose morals goals and objectives we cannot know, but to be a good Christian must trust that they do not steer us wrong. This is my problem with Christianity, how can one follow a Church that historically has done so many terrible things, how can a Christian love thy nieghbour and yet condem homosexuals to hell, what kind of a church would knowingly allow a country to become riddled with HIV and AIDS because of it's stance on contraceptives.

86 you ask me how I can believe in an intelligent God and say his word has been perverted, this is how: Jesus may have spoke the word of God but we must hear it from down the grapevine, which intrinsically allows for the chance of perversion, throw in a few greedy Kings, some puppet popes, and a good dose of inquisition and whammo the word of God becomes a means to the end of power and wealth.
And so you see we may all be damned to hell
I have not read the bible cover to cover but I have studied Catholic history for a good long while now and it is really something to learn of the things the Church of Rome has done over it's long history.

[This message has been edited by AV8DAY (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by AV8DAY: "AV8DAY, If you believe in God, an intelligent being who created all things, how can you believe that he would let his word get perverted? The bible is the inspired word of God, as written by the Holy Spirit." This is what you asked me and though I do believe that thier is a higher power, it's easy to see how His word became perverted, it was perverted by men, by us, by humans. He was the son of God come to earth to teach us the word of God. That's all well and good, He would have gotten the word right. But He died, maybe not of natural causes but He was human and humans die. This is where the poopoo hits the fan. He was survived by his disciples, the Saints. He taught them, probably very well, and they tried to teach others but, like anyone who has played that game where you speak a sentence in one persons ear and they pass it on to another and another, somewhere you end up hearing purplemonkeydishwasher. What I mean is that the disciples taught others and others taught others soon they were so many different version of Jesus' words the need arose to make one single version. And so a group of men decided what would be included in the official Bible, they also excluded certain things. The problem I have is: these are men with no connetion to the man that was Jesus, with no connetion to His disciples, and they got to, essentially, decide what it would mean to be Christian. When you read the bible you don't read the words of Christ as they were spoke by Jesus but rather a version interpreted by men who, we can never know, whose morals goals and objectives we cannot know, but to be a good Christian must trust that they do not steer us wrong. This is my problem with Christianity, how can one follow a Church that historically has done so many terrible things, how can a Christian love thy nieghbour and yet condem homosexuals to hell, what kind of a church would knowingly allow a country to become riddled with HIV and AIDS because of it's stance on contraceptives. 86 you ask me how I can believe in an intelligent God and say his word has been perverted, this is how: Jesus may have spoke the word of God but we must hear it from down the grapevine, which intrinsically allows for the chance of perversion, throw in a few greedy Kings, some puppet popes, and a good dose of inquisition and whammo the word of God becomes a means to the end of power and wealth. And so you see we may all be damned to hell I have not read the bible cover to cover but I have studied Catholic history for a good long while now and it is really something to learn of the things the Church of Rome has done over it's long history.

The Catholics are an example of a group of people who really need to read the bible themselves. But that is another thread.

My point is, which coincides with the quote I posted, that God, who created the earth and everything in it, is not going to let his word get perverted. He will always have it clean and pure, and availiable to read. He will never let it disapear. While there are many false teaching out there, God's word will never go away. Just as God spoke through the prophets by the Holy Spirit, by the Spirit he keeps his word accurately thoughout all generations. The last verses in Revelations show tell you what will happen to those who try to pervert God's word. now your remark on aids and such, that is a perfect example of the concequences of sin. If you follow God's way, you will be in no danger of getting aids and hiv (or very little, I suppose some strange blood transfusion error could occure). It is not a churches view on contraceptives, its the view on sex. sex is meant for marrige, between a man and a women. That is what it is there for. Used as such, it will not cause a problem.

I would strongly suggest reading the bible cover to cover, and you will see that it is God's word. You will take it on faith. I would not suggest basing religious beliefs on secular accounts of history. It does no good to study man while looking for God's word. Man is sinful and that is what you will find, sin and a sinful history. If you want to know God's word, read it in the bible.

yes, but my point is the bible was created by man, his words may have been truth, but men selected which words would be in the bible, thus the perversion I mention
my study of secular history has shown me this

[This message has been edited by AV8DAY (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes, thats what I was saying - its either this - OR - the existance of the church, and people spreading the word is a plague - if no-one heard the word - EVERYONE would be saved. image, being the person who saved ALL FUTURE PEOPLE by wiping out the church,all writings, and its followers? wouldnt that be MORE good than ANYTHING jesus did? not only saving all future people, but also dooming yourself to hell, for all of humanity. thats more of a sacrafice than jesus - he got to go to heavan. talk about dieing for sins, eh? and hell never gets another soul....

God and his word will remain forever

quote Originally posted by 86fierofun: If you want to know God's word, read it in the bible.

Which one?

Amplified
Ancient Manuscripts
Authorized Standard Version(ASV)
Contemporary English Version(CEV)
Dios Habla Hoy
Douay-Rheims
English Standard Version(ESV)
God's Word
Good News Translation(GNT)
Holman Christian Standard(HCSB)
International Children's Bible(ICB)
Jerusalem
King James Version(KJV)
Las Americas(LBLA)
Latinoamericana
Living Bible
Message
New American Bible(NAB)
New American Standard(NASB update)
New American Standard(NASB)
New Century Version(NCV)
New English Translation(NET)
New International Readers Version(NIrV)
New International Version(NIV)
New King James Version(NKJV)
New Living Translation(NLT)
New Revised Standard Version(NRSV)
Nueva Vesion Internacional(NVI)
Other
Phillips
Reina-Valera(RVR)
Revised English Bible(REB)
Revised Standard Version(RSV)
Tanakh
Today's New International Version(TNIV)
Version Popular(VP)
With Apocrypha

quote Originally posted by AV8DAY: yes, but my point is the bible was created by man, his words may have been truth, but men selected which words would be in the bible, thus the perversion I mention my study of secular history has shown me this

Plus that whole irritating "free will/free choice" thing...although I'm sure that doesn't extend into the intrpretation/translation/re-writing of the Bible at all....
It should have been a commandment: "Thou shalt not rewrite the Bible"...how come it's not anyway?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: if no-one heard the word - EVERYONE would be saved.

I'm randomly picking a country just as an example. Let's say Turkey, although it could be others. I decide to travel in Turkey. I start doing something and someone from Turkey that speaks english sees me. He comes up to me and says, "YOU CAN'T DO THAT. IT'S ILLEGAL." I say, "Oh, way to go. You ruined it for me. If I didn't KNOW it was illegal, I couldn't get in trouble for doing it. But now that you've TOLD me it is illegal, if I do it I can get in trouble for it."

I am going to suspect that in Turkey, ignorance of the law is not a defense. I am going to suspect that they are going to say something to the effect of "You came to our country. You were able to SEE that we have a civilization. You were able to SEE that we have some semblance of order. You were able to SEE policemen. That was plenty of evidence for you to understand that we would have laws. YOU should have sought out to know what those laws were. If you would have made ANY level of reasonable attempt to find out, you would have accomplished it and known what to do. Your defense of yourself by claiming ignorance of our laws is invalid. You were WILLFULLY ignorant."

Ignorance of the law isn't a defense. Willful ignorance of the law is certainly no defense. The portion of Romans that I posted was referring to just that. So you have an interesting thesis, but assuming that the Bible is true, your thesis is answered and denied by it. You certainly retain the right to decline to accept the Bible as true.

Fun discussion topic. Anything in particular that brought it to your mind, or just happened to be thinking about it?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Covered. Just different wording. Revelation 22:18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So, the Bible may be edited by a man and not the actual Word of God. We can take comfort in knowing whoever would do this has been punished, but that doesn't fix the translation, now does it?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Which one?

King James. But 1600 english is a little tough to get used to, and some of the meanings of the words have changed over 400 years. Example: Waxed--back then meant grew. He waxed old=he grew old today.

New King James. That's a good one.

New American Standard Version. That's a good one.

I like Reina-Valera if reading it in spanish.


But if someone prefers a different one, go for it. I've read portions of many. Regarding the fundamental, critical points or issues, almost all on that list would be fine. I'll say almost all, because I haven't read out of all of them.

I would suggest picking a translation that is in your native language, but I guess you wouldn't have to.

I live in an area with a high percentage of Catholic people. They seem to prefer Douay-Rheims. Fine with me. If they have a question they want answered from "the bible", and they trust that one, then OK, let's use that one.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Covered. Just different wording. Revelation 22:18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

That's not a commandment. It's just another of a million passages. Or are all passages now commandments? And really, if we have "free will", then they aren't even really "commandments", they're just "really good ideas to follow if you choose to." If it was actually a commandment, then wouldn't "God" just make it so we would HAVE to conform to them? Oh yeah, free will. Makes sense, here you go, you can freely choose among these choices, but choose wrong and I'll smite you. Jeeze, I hope you guys aren't that harsh with your kids....

It's just all too nonsensical.

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: That's not a commandment. It's just another of a million passages. Or are all passages now commandments? And really, if we have "free will", then they aren't even really "commandments", they're just "really good ideas to follow if you choose to." If it was actually a commandment, then wouldn't "God" just make it so we would HAVE to conform to them? Oh yeah, free will. Makes sense, here you go, you can freely choose among these choices, but choose wrong and I'll smite you. Jeeze, I hope you guys aren't that harsh with your kids.... It's just all too nonsensical.

It doesn't require a "thou shalt not" in front of it to be a commandment.

And it does make sense. You have a free will. Here are the results of each free will decision. Now that you have full disclosure of the consequences of whichever way you choose, make your choice. You don't HAVE to conform to anything. Just be fully informed of the consequences, and then make your pick.

There are commandments that God is telling people to do, but giving them the option to decline, knowing what the consequences for declining are.

I think you might be confusing "free will" with license, if you are thinking that the only "free will" you want is "let me do whatever I want and have there be no consequences." If THAT is what "free will" is, THEN they aren't really commandments, they are suggestions. Because you are told what to do, but never held accountable to do them or have a consequence.

The passage I put in the previous thread isn't a "thou shalt not", but it is a statement of behavior with consequence, which is in essence a command. There are millions of other passages that do not contain a behavior, and consequence. But if you want to split hairs on definitions, I don't mind that. What remains is that God did tell people not to change His word.

I absolutely respect your right to have your own opinion on this, but I would dispute that it is nonsensical. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it nonsensical. But I do appreciate your honest discussion, and the excellent questions and points you bring up. Important issues, no matter what one decides is correct.

I don't precisely know who the "you guys" all includes, but I can fulfill your hope that no, I'm not harsh with my kids.

[This message has been edited by frontal lobe (edited 10-03-2006).]

It is nonsensical. Common Christianity is a bunch of insane rules and nonsenical explinations that try to make sense of an insane God. Common chrstianity burdons "God" with all of their human emotions and motives and try to pass this inferior being off as an all-powerful God. The God described in common Christianity is angry, fearful, and jealous and shows no signs of true love whatsoever. I know of absolutely no truly loving person who would demand that another person love them. In fact, I know of no truly loving person who would place any demands whatsoever on a person they loved, their interest (if it truly is love) is only in the complete happiness of the person they love. The common Christian God isn't loving, "he" is demanding, selfish, even obsessive in common definition, "he" is fearful that the ones he supposedly loves would choose another to love, and while offering us the freedom to "choose" among his many gifts, will punsih us forever if we don't choose "correctly", even though depending on which book you use, that choice might different. Don't they put people in jail for that kind of behavior in this country? Oh yes, that's right, this is "God" we're talking about, "he's" aloowed to behave this way, and in fact, deserves to be worshipped because of it.
The problem with discussing this is common Christianity doesn't promote two-way communication. It states things as a fact (that aren't) and then places beyond question, and in fact, within its structure, provides for strict punishment for those who do dare question it.
Sorry, but that just sounds way too convenient and self serving, and frankly, a lot like brainwashing to me. Certainly you're familiar with the comparison between thought manipulation and education, and that they are on complete opposite ends of the scale? Dare you to consider those facts? Oh yeah, that's right, you aren't allowed to, you might piss God off.

By the way, I *am* (I suppose) a Christian, I attend a somewhat Christian church, and am in fact, quite involved. I'm a charter member, oversee the sound team and am quite close with the minister and her husband. But I can assure you, my God is *nothing* like the God described by common Christian beliefs. http://www.unitydelawareohio.org/

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: no, I'm not harsh with my kids.

Unless ofcourse they disrespect you..............then you must stone them to death!

No, I know that was the "old" bible!

The Bible is a handed-down case study of how to be the best Human you can be.
Lots of good leasons & guidelines.
But it is not the be-all, end-all.
It's all on you.
Free will, remember?

My own personal experience is that "common christianity" doesn't follow the Bible closely. I've only been giving you Bible answers.

Your accusations of the God of common christianity may be valid. Your accusations of the God as described in the Bible are contradictory to the Bible.

Boondawg,

I've never been a stoner.

For those who might have an objective interest:

This table clearly defines the various forms and methods of influencing thought. Hmmm...where does most common religious groups fall. I wonder. I'd have pasted just the table but I'm not really sure how, or if it's even possible.

http://www.workingpsychology.com/ethics2.html

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Boondawg, I've never been a stoner.

And I've never been a christian.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
(and yes, i got the joke!)

God - The Great Class Divider:
Those that believe, and those that don't.
Winners & losers.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: My own personal experience is that "common christianity" doesn't follow the Bible closely. I've only been giving you Bible answers. Your accusations of the God of common christianity may be valid. Your accusations of the God as described in the Bible are contradictory to the Bible.

Being that most Christian sects are based on a literal interpretaion of the bible, how can that be accurate?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: The Bible is a handed-down case study of how to be the best Human you can be. Lots of good leasons & guidelines. But it is not the be-all, end-all.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I'd have pasted just the table but I'm not really sure how, or if it's even possible.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I'm randomly picking a country just as an example. Let's say Turkey, although it could be others. I decide to travel in Turkey. I start doing something and someone from Turkey that speaks english sees me. He comes up to me and says, "YOU CAN'T DO THAT. IT'S ILLEGAL." I say, "Oh, way to go. You ruined it for me. If I didn't KNOW it was illegal, I couldn't get in trouble for doing it. But now that you've TOLD me it is illegal, if I do it I can get in trouble for it."

laws are way different from good & bad.
and, so now we are back to the Eskimo's & Aztecs never had a chance.
that seems to be what everyone is saying.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Fun discussion topic. Anything in particular that brought it to your mind, or just happened to be thinking about it?

Muslims, and their aggressive views. we already know they wrote off the Eskimo's & Aztecs.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Being that most Christian sects are based on a literal interpretaion of the bible, how can that be accurate?

The key words there would be "based on".

Because when they boil it down, most christian sects springboard off of a "literal" interpretation of the Bible, but then start throwing in their own ideas. Let's take catholics for an example. (and let me say here that I am not picking on catholics) If you ask them about a literal interpretation of the Bible as the authority for their beliefs, they would probably say yes. But then you press them further, and they would tell you that, well, really, the new testament is actually catholic church writings, with Peter being "the first pope". And, so, church writings are the final authority. And if you ask them about the verses in Revelation that I posted earlier, they side step that and believe that the authority and interpretation of church leaders through time and to this day continue to have equal footing to what most people would call "the Bible".

Jesus accused the jewish religious leaders of His day of having done the same thing. Adding "church traditions", then making them equal to the Bible. Then going on to make them contradict the very Bible they said they believed, and placing their "church traditions" over what the Bible says.


I like your "Continuum of Influence" table link. Excellent information. I'm not sure if you were bringing it up in general or targeting it at me. If you were targeting it at me, I would just ask you to simply consider the way I have presented myself in this discussion. That should help you see what category I would fall in, which would, in my opinion, be the category my church would fall in.


Pyrthian,

I was using the law issue to draw an analogy.

God has a set of "good and bad" behavior. He has consequences for bad behavior, and also a remedy. Ignorance of what is considered bad behavior, and the consequences of bad behavior is not a defense. From that, your conclusion is that we are back to the Eskimo's and Aztecs never having a chance. The Bible is back to, no, you had a chance. You had plenty of signs to observe in your environment that, with the conscience I gave you, you could have decided to try to seek who or what made all this. And if you would have shown even the slightest interest, I would have been obligated to ensure that I sent someone (s) to clearly get you that message of the remedy for your bad behavior. So the Bible says they were GUARANTEED to have a chance.

But, again, you may not accept what the Bible says as true. Not arguing with you on that at all. Not arguing at all. Just discussing.

Wow, some people take things a little too literally. The thing about reading? That was a joke. I will read this entire thread later when I have more time, I do like to read. But you guys have gone to town on it and I have a meeting to get to.

Also, my question remains unanswered (unless I missed the answer somewhere):

If God, in some way or another, shows himself to all his children and we are all somehow made aware of his presence and are then able to choose to accept or reject him, why was it necessary for Jesus to command the Disciples to go forth and spread the word of God? Shouldn't we already know? If God is making himself known in hundreds of ways every day, why do we need missionaries and the like to go around converting people?

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Wow, some people take things a little too literally. The thing about reading? That was a joke. I will read this entire thread later when I have more time, I do like to read. But you guys have gone to town on it and I have a meeting to get to. Also, my question remains unanswered (unless I missed the answer somewhere): If God, in some way or another, shows himself to all his children and we are all somehow made aware of his presence and are then able to choose to accept or reject him, why was it necessary for Jesus to command the Disciples to go forth and spread the word of God? Shouldn't we already know? If God is making himself known in hundreds of ways every day, why do we need missionaries and the like to go around converting people?

That my freind is a very good question. It kind of goes along with this one: Once God brings me to faith, why doesn't he take me immediately to heaven?

Answer to both: God uses us to bring others to faith. You said "If God, in some way or another, shows himself to all his children and we are all somehow made aware of his presence..." Well, we (being believers) are a large part of how God shows himself to others. We are part of his plan. I hope that made sence to you. Like I had said when you first posted the question when we are born, we only know sin.

quote Psalms 14:3 3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Therefore, God uses believers to bring the message of his gospel to all.

and Taijiguy:
God is extremly loving in the bible. He shows his love often in both the old and new testement. He would give warning after warning, prophet after prophet to tell the people to turn and repent. They would ignor him time and time again. Then he would discipline them

quote Proverbs 3:11-12 11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline and do not resent his rebuke, 12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father [b] the son he delights in.

and

quote Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

Just as a father disciplines his son to teach him right and wrong, to send him in the right direction, God disciplines us, to put us back on the right track.

quote 2 Corinthians 7:10-11 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done...

This is to bring us to God. He generously shows his love to us, and wants all to come to repentance

quote 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

and

quote Psalm 100:5 For the LORD is good and his love endures forever; his faithfulness continues through all generations.

I hope that shed some light on the issue. I will say again, that while me and frontal lobe are doing our best to answer your questions, I urge you all to read for yourselves to judge for yourselves if what we say is correct. But I pray that you do not judge before you read.

God asked for witnesses, and all He got was lawyers.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Also, my question remains unanswered (unless I missed the answer somewhere): If God, in some way or another, shows himself to all his children and we are all somehow made aware of his presence and are then able to choose to accept or reject him, why was it necessary for Jesus to command the Disciples to go forth and spread the word of God? Shouldn't we already know? If God is making himself known in hundreds of ways every day, why do we need missionaries and the like to go around converting people?

God makes His EXISTENCE known every day in hundreds of ways, in the created world, according to the Bible. This is a GENERAL knowledge. Regarding the SPECIFICS, once a person mentally demonstrates any willingness to consider there might be a God and wants to know, God is obligated (and pleased) to send someone the specifics necessary. (The verse would be: "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The context makes clear that 'faith' is a belief in God and dependence on Him to get them to heaven to be with Him some day when their body dies, and 'hearing' would be hearing the specific truths about God and what a person needs to do.)

And very quick and short, the "specifics" would be:

all have sinned
the penalty for that is separation from God and suffering in Hell forever
God paid the penalty Himself when Jesus died on the cross to shed His blood, and rose again; so that an individual would not have to.
anyone can acknowledge the above, let God know they believe that, and will depend on that alone as their payment and way to heaven

By the way, important clarifications:

all humans are not his children. In fact, the DEFAULT mode is that humans start out as NOT his children, and remain in that mode unless they decide to do something. All are invited, but only the ones that have done the above "specifics" are his children.

missionaries are only supposed to be going and PRESENTING the above specifics (which are known as 'the gospel'). Then an individual is supposed to make a free will decision to act on it, and then God does the "converting". It may sound like a fine distinction, but it isn't when you consider what some missionaries have done through history who felt is was THEIR job to do the converting.

Once again, the disclaimer. The above is what the Bible says, not what my own personal opinions are.

quote Originally posted by 86fierofun: No, just a warning. it is not my place to judge. Scott, you are making very strong assumptions without doing the reading. Read the old testement. Isaiah and the psalms make many many references to the Christ as the son of God coming in the flesh. God's law in the old testement did not just rule the Jews, it ruled the aliens living amoung them, as well as the converts to Judisim (there were some in the old testement). Keep in mind that the promise of Christ came all the way back from the time of adam and eve,

Having read the old testament many a time in hebrew as well as english.. I say your wrong. Your religon's rewriting and reinterpetation adds things that simply are not there. You just gave examples that make no sense at all. Christ is not mentioned, Jesus is not mentioned, a son of god is not mentioned. A messiah is... and Jesus did not meet the criteria. That is why Jews don't believe in Christ. To them it's blasphemy, idiolotry, false god and all that... it's a test and you failed.

What if they are right and you are wrong? Can you flip your viewpoint and tell me what your destiny is if your wrong and the jews are right? If they are right, YOU are praying to a false god, have broken the commandments, and are not repentant for your actions. Your not attempting to bring the world to the better place that it's supposed to be for the Messiah to happen because Jesus said he's coming back to do what he didn't do the first time... ie. the very things the Messiah is supposed to herald in.

Next! I try to convince you to follow Mohammed! Then we can move out of judeo christian mythos and on to convincing you to pray to Shiva... or go straight to the only one with real statistical proof... The Church of the FSM. Or invite you to Kiss Hank's Ass... http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

As a believer you assume I haven't read the texts, but I have... As a non believer I'm wondering if you have actually read straight through over a year or so or if you just listen to/read quotes supplied to support specific positions. And have you read anyone else's religon's texts? Try the Tibetan Book of the Dead or maybe actually read the Koran and get your own opinion of what Islam really says, find out what was left out when the christian bible was canonized... read the texts the Gnostics still archive.

Part of what bugs me about evangelical christians is that they want everyone else to read the bible (because the answers are in there!), but don't read any other religon's texts for a variety of given reasons. Intellectual and theological curiosity is not encouraged in evangelical christianity.

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library.html

I have another 'similar' question I was wondering. It doesn't seem possible that christians believe in life on other planets. What if we find it? More importantly, what if they don't look like us? Will it just be reinterpreted, again?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I have another 'similar' question I was wondering. It doesn't seem possible that christians believe in life on other planets. What if we find it? More importantly, what if they don't look like us? Will it just be reinterpreted, again?

Yup, some guy in a phallic hat will come up with the lost pages that can explain it all, heh.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I have another 'similar' question I was wondering. It doesn't seem possible that christians believe in life on other planets. What if we find it? More importantly, what if they don't look like us? Will it just be reinterpreted, again?

yes, this is back to the thread.
according to everything discussed - the people of the new planet are as doomed as the Eskimo's & the Aztecs.
but, this is just from the christ dudes. all the other religions seem to leave this open.
this christ guy really screwed up alot of people. him or nothing. all without access are doomed.
at least the non-christ dudes leave it at god - and god can be seen from anywhere.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes, this is back to the thread. according to everything discussed - the people of the new planet are as doomed as the Eskimo's & the Aztecs. but, this is just from the christ dudes. all the other religions seem to leave this open. this christ guy really screwed up alot of people. him or nothing. all without access are doomed. at least the non-christ dudes leave it at god - and god can be seen from anywhere.

Well it means either they have no god (wait, how did they get there then), or there is a different god for every planet, OR, there is no god. Seems kind of funny to make a universe and populate one planet.

lol. aliens. Do I think we will find them? no. Could we? I suppose. The bible never mentions then, for or against. But I will not be holding my breath anytime soon. As for what will happen to them, they would have the same fate as the animals of the earth, as the bible mentions that only humans have souls.

Scott. now that you have read the old testement, have you read the new? (as that is very important in the discussion of christ being the savior) As to reading other texts from other religions, I have not in any entirety. Now this is a faith thing here, but I believe in God and have read his word, finding it true and without fault, and have found him to be the only true God. I have no interest in reading other texts, but rather my goal is to spread God's word.