190 members of the Taliban, including several higher up members.



Just standing around as a Predator drone flew around undetected overhead. Under the US Rules of Engagement, the US cannot bomb a cemetary. However, that rule does not apply if the target is of a greater value than the collateral damage. So, wtf? Why did we not blow them to smithereens?

Meanwhile the government is running around trying to figure out "Who leaked the photograph"

HA! Retards, all of them.

Personally, I think something smells fishy.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 09-14-2006).]

No... We shouldn't. Despite what the media and the anti-Bush camps say, we are not like them.

But.. if there are really higher ups there that are on the list, I would have had ground troops picking them up on their way out.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 09-14-2006).]

We may not be able to bomb them, but nothing says there can't be an "electrical malfunction" or flight error causing it to crash into the crowd.

quote Originally posted by Songman: No... We shouldn't. Despite what the media and the anti-Bush camps say, we are not like them. But.. if there are really higher ups there that are on the list, I would have had ground troops picking them up on their way out.

That "But" made all the difference!

I agree, we shouldn't just drop a huge bomb on that crowd, (if we want to say we are different then them.)
But it wouldn't be a bad thing to have some ground troops take care of them after they left...


What was it that most evil ruler Dark Helmet said? "Evil will always win, because good is DUMB"?

Imagine how many american soldiers and possibly civilians they might have saved if they took out those guys?

Gotta draw lines somewhere.

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 09-14-2006).]

The US is "trying" to play by some rules of engagement in which the "enemy" does not. There is no way you can fight "fair" in a guerrilla war. The enemy hides in mosques, civilain houses and plots strategy and civilains and masques are not supposed to be targets. Any mass of Talilbans would be an appropriate target IMHO.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: Imagine how many american soldiers and possibly civilians they might have saved if they took out those guys? Gotta draw lines somewhere.

I hate that.

If you're going to be at "war" with a group of people, you should be prepared to kill them when you have an opportunity. I believe that's what "war" means - two groups of people killing each other.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I hate that. If you're going to be at "war" with a group of people, you should be prepared to kill them when you have an opportunity. I believe that's what "war" means - two groups of people killing each other.

That's one of the problems, this isn't a war, with two (or more) sides, wearing uniforms....

Edit: I feel very sorry for our troops over there..must be SOOO frustrating for them to have their orders change so frequently...

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 09-14-2006).]

The US armed forces must live to a higher standard since we are a nation of laws. LOAC--the laws of armed conflict and the geneva conventions govern our ability to fight what target when. We are held to these conventions, not because we want to, but because they are the right way. If the US started to act like the Taliban and their friends Al Queada, the rest of the world would (if they don't already) see us as no better then the terrorist. We are a civilized society, a nation of laws.

S. Williams

Now, on the other hand if the equipment malfunctions, well....
------------------
1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 09-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: The US is "trying" to play by some rules of engagement in which the "enemy" does not. There is no way you can fight "fair" in a guerrilla war. The enemy hides in mosques, civilain houses and plots strategy and civilains and masques are not supposed to be targets. Any mass of Talilbans would be an appropriate target IMHO.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I hate that. If you're going to be at "war" with a group of people, you should be prepared to kill them when you have an opportunity. I believe that's what "war" means - two groups of people killing each other.

But for some reasons the U.S. is held to higher standards in the world than anyone else is. Not only by the rest of the world, but also by liberals in this country. Can you imagine the outcry, mostly from this country, if we did bomb that funeral and take out those people whose sole purpose for living is to kill infidels? We've already seen that at Abu Grabe. We weren't beheading people like the enemy, but the world jumped all over us and wants to protect them. There is no logic to it. It would be very simple if we could just go into the war and do what it takes to win it... We would have done okay in VietNam if we could have done that as well, but the 60s brought on the protestors and special interest groups that are still tying our hands today.

Fine, don't kill them. Arrest them.

We didn't do anything

Ryan, for once, I am in total agreement with you. I think we should take them out at ALMOST any given opportunity. We didn't do anything. They brought it to us. BUT, I believe in God and the reason I wouldn't bomb the funeral has more to do with my relgious thoughts than what the world would think of us. I wouldn't bomb them for the same reason I pull my car to the side of the road when I see a funeral procession. While I may not respect the way the person in the casket lived, I do respect their leaving of this life. It is a hard line.. but it is one that I won't cross for personal reasons.

quote Originally posted by Songman: No... We shouldn't. Despite what the media and the anti-Bush camps say, we are not like them.

We could have left that whole gathering as a smoking hole in the ground, and we still wouldn't be like them.
They don't even have any respect for their own people (using mosques for weapons storage and operational bases).
Why should we?

I'm firmly convinced that playing by the rules is not working for us, and is most definitley working to the enemy's advantage.
Get the news media the hell out of there (that includes "taking out" Al Jazeera), and do what needs to be done.

Edit - Dale, I also respect the dead, but if they don't even respect their own, I say "why bother".

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-14-2006).]

At least they wouldn't need to go far to bury them (if we did)....

Probably should have kept following them around with the drone, led our troops to them, and then given them more funerals to go to. But if we would be appauled by them if they attacked a funeral service, then we need to adhear to our own rules. Even if they don't. Be the better person when possible. But I aggree that something should have been done to stop them after the funeral was over. Even if it was just locking them up.

------------------
Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy (8/26/06)

Imagine the liberal onslaught when we tell the media to leave... They have the right to know!

Of course, I agree with you about getting the media out and handling it. I don't think the media belonged in VietNam and I don't think they belong here.

It is absolutely a given that we could have ended this thing long ago if our hands weren't tied by all the rules we must follow that the enemy doesn't, and the political popularity contest that our leaders have to play every day.

I still wouldn't feel right about bombing a funeral though.

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: But I aggree that something should have been done to stop them after the funeral was over. Even if it was just locking them up.

The good part about the rules of engagement is...

Say we drop in some paratroopers... If they start shooting at us, "it's ooonnn!"

In a video they more or less stated that there might have been more people present that may or may not have been taliban members, My guess would be that they followed a known taliban member to a funeral but couldn't say weather the whole party was taliban members or "friends and family". And how can you say both that there were hundreds of taliban members there AND that you can't be sure of who was there at all. Sounds like the reporter wanted it to sound like juicy news but in fact had another side to it. Just my opinion.

This is the article I read and has the link to the video that I watched.
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/military-declined-to-bomb-group-of/20060913233809990008?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Daniel

We need to just make an announcement to the entire world that if you screw (terrorist activity) with us we will kill you and anyone else that happens to be arrogant enough or stupid enough to be anywhere near you. And kill you where ever we can find you. MAYBE then there support would finally dry up.
If these Bozo's,,, wait a minute I liked Bozo, IDIOTS are pissed off that we are in their country (oil) than take it out on their own government. These terrorists are hooked on the most powerful drug in the world, POWER! that is why jkasses like Osama gave up his money for his current lifestyle.

We as the world super power should be leading by example WIN WIN WIN and this gotta be fair crap needs to be tossed, it is nothing more than a feel good self delusion which is going to cost us in more attacks and more of our kids being killed. For Christ sakes! if your going to fight? fight to win! Those asswipes were probably quite honored to have those top ranking officials there at the funeral so in my book we should have killed every GD one of them! no exceptions.

Nasty affairs are heating up big time all over the world and we need to take the necessary steps immediately to preserve ourselves and our way of life. Get tuff or get out! We need a government that is willing to do what is best for US not their future careers.

This aint no stinking popularity contest! heck we can't win that one

quote Originally posted by htexans1: The US armed forces must live to a higher standard since we are a nation of laws. LOAC--the laws of armed conflict and the geneva conventions govern our ability to fight what target when. We are held to these conventions, not because we want to, but because they are the right way. If the US started to act like the Taliban and their friends Al Queada, the rest of the world would (if they don't already) see us as no better then the terrorist. We are a civilized society, a nation of laws. S. Williams

In theroy, I agree with you.
And up untill a few months ago, I defended the posistion of, "Good must never lower itself to evils standards.".

BUT...................

If we are going to have secret prisons, set up in secret countries, for the purpose of engaging in torture, unchecked, and deny basic human & legal rights, the very same rights we espouse to be fighting for, then we can no longer claim that "Dancing with the devil" has not ALREADY changed us for the worse.

It's kind of like beating the snot out of a non-believer, holding a bible in one hand & a baseball bat in the other while screaming, "If a man strikes you, turn the other cheek!".
You can't have it both ways.

And THAT's fine!
We just need to deciede.
We are either going to play by the rules, ALL THE RULES, or we ARE NOT.
We cannot just pick and choose.

I believe in playing by the rules, no matter WHAT it costs.
But it THIS war, with THIS enemy, we need to commit ourselves 100% to destroying them "by any means necessary".
I believe they are bent on physical & religious World domination.
Becouse they have EVERYTHING to gain, and nothing to lose.

We must be ruthless, if even for a short period of time, and let it be known to the World that agressive barbarity will not be tolerated, and we will erase it from the face of the planet, even if WE have to be come temporally barbaric to accomplish the task.
It WILL be ugly, it will ruin MANY lives, and many will call us monsters.
So be it.
But they will do it in the new found peace we have provided for them.
And evil will be put on notice.

Let history judge us.

Remember, dropping the Atomic bomb was horrible.
But it probibly saved countless lives and resources that would have been lost in an extended war.
Sometimes, it is the swift sledgehammer that is merciful.

It's a hardknock life.
I don't like it, or agree with it, but i'm in it.

Hit the funeral?
The way we are fighting this war AS OF NOW, no.
But if we were steadfast in our goal to end this thing, then YES.
That, and every other funtion, gathering, formation, or anything else we deem necessary.

Innocents?
'Don't hang out with, or around, bad guys."
"If you give aid, in any way, you ARE the bad guy."
"If they try to hide in your house, or make you do something to help them, you better fight them TO THE DEATH."
"You fight them, and you may live. You don't, and you will SURLY die."

You are either WITH us, or AGANEST us.
No middle ground.

How To Win This War:
1. We go in to CONQUOR.
2. We set up bases.
3. We rule the people.
4. We stablize the country by any means necessary.
5. We pick their best people, to be determined by us, and set up a government "By the people, of the people, & for the people".
6. We reduce our presence, and monitor their progress.

Maybe in 50 years they will be able to get along with progress, each other, and the World, and be on their own.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-14-2006).]

why couldnt this same drone, or another follow them after the funeral?
and then, in the evening, deliver the missles
that why I really think this was a load of BS
they could easily put things in action, or at least track the individuals afterwards
that was just a plain old crowd at a everyday funeral

HELL YES!

I am so pissed that the pin heads failed to take advantage of this opportunity. It's a WAR DAMNIT! Kill the enemy.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: We just need to deciede. We are either going to play by the rules, ALL THE RULES, or we ARE NOT. We cannot just pick and choose.

Someone gets it!

(Whatever "it" is....)

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Lots of stuff...

You just pretty much gave our exact meaning for even being over there. That is exactly the message we did put out. When you say it, people go "Hell yeah!". When the President of the United States says it he is accused of all kinds of wrong-doings.

I think you are normally right that innocents don't hang around with evil-doers. But these scum that we are fighting surround themselves with innocents as a shield and if we bomb them then it is us who is made out as evil. what bothers me the most is that it is people in this country with a political agenda that are screwming the loudest against us. As stated above, the media should be out of war zones. War is no place for people to get entertainment. And that is what brings on this crop of outcry over how bad the evil Americans are treating the poor terrorists. War bring casualties. They kill their own people to try to stop us. We shouldn't kill innocents on purpose but if they are put in harm's way by their own people, there is not much we can do about it. They have to be stopped.

Yes, dealing with these people has affected us.. And yes it was for the worse.. But scaring prisoners with dogs and making them stand naked is nothing! We are not like them regardless of what our own slanted media tries to make us think. I have friends that have been to Gitmo and think they have it too easy down there. Like you said, Boondawg, war is hell.. But we didn't start it. They did. I don't think it is all too bad for the ones we have captured. I guarantee you they are living better even in prison than they did in their own land.

quote Originally posted by Songman: But these scum that we are fighting surround themselves with innocents as a shield and if we bomb them then it is us who is made out as evil.

And I think that right there is how we can defeat them.

We let it be known that we will destroy their "shields" to get to them.
When the shield knows that, they will fight those that would make them a shield.
Then the enemy will kill them for refusing to be a shield.
Now the blood is on their hands, not ours.
The people they would use as protection will see who the real enemy is.

If there are good people over there, who want to be out from under the tyranny of the bad people, they must fight them, from ceiling to floor. Even if it means their own demise. They can't just sit on the fence, watching and waiting.
They should be fighting for their own freedom.
Or at least helping us to help them to realize the dream of being all they can be under a freedom they have never known.
By any means necessary.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-14-2006).]

Ryan; When did you start hanging out on my side of the fence?

Joe

quote Originally posted by motoracer838: Ryan; When did you start hanging out on my side of the fence? Joe

Oh, we're not so different, you and I...

Soooo.......the US starts bombing Taliban funerals. How long untill they catch on and start bombing US funerals ?

I'm guessing once would be enough to give them the idea.

quote Originally posted by under8ted: Soooo.......the US starts bombing Taliban funerals. How long untill they catch on and start bombing US funerals ? I'm guessing once would be enough to give them the idea.

Oh, please,,, they will bomb us no matter what we are doing, they have already demonstrated that.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: If there are good people over there, who want to be out from under the tyranny of the bad people, they must fight them, from ceiling to floor. Even if it means their own demise. They can't just sit on the fence, watching and waiting. They should be fighting for their own freedom. Or at least helping us to help them to realize the dream of being all they can be under a freedom they have never known. By any means necessary.

They should learn to clean up their own dirty laundry. Pluck their few "bad apples" so the whole tree isn't spoiled. Of couse, it isn't that easy when the bad apples have enough support and weaponry on their side, not to mention, they share the same "faith"...
Not that we are really "free" but I'd gladly take our "freedom" over their version of reality.

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 09-14-2006).]

We should do whatever is required to create more Talibastard funerals.

------------------
Who is John Galt?

quote Originally posted by Songman: No... We shouldn't. Despite what the media and the anti-Bush camps say, we are not like them.

I agree with you. However, this thread says otherwise.

I have to comment here. We did the right thing. We have to uphold the LOAC standard we have set for ourselves or it will come back and bite us in the butt. There is a point that our actions, if done, will bring more negative outcome, though it seems to be the best thing to do, than if we be patient and wait for a more realistic opportunity. I too want to blow them up due to the way they behave but that is just it, by doing it we come down to their level.

The rules are in place to limit civilian casualties and other casualties that have nothing to do with the WAR machine, much like doctors and priest. The only time this is circumvented is when the place or person is actively pursuing an advancement of the WAR machine, like planning an invasion and then it is appropriate. Contrary to popular beliefs, Mosque, if used to plan war activities, is a viable target in this war. But we try not to decimate them because they have historical value as well.

If we were smart we would have had people following them and eliminating them at another location. We have to set the standard if we expect people to treat us with at least the same standard. The terrorist will not play by our rules, that is their moral compass and the way they were taught, but other conflicts may arise and if that example is there then both sides may play by the rules.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I agree with you. However, this thread says otherwise.

We are like them in the fact that we're on the opposite sides of the same war, and we kill each other.

War.
- a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
- armed fighting, as a science, profession, activity, or art; methods or principles of waging armed conflict

Somebody please explain to me when it is okay to kill the enemy.
1) When they're walking in the desert?
2) When they're walking to church?
3) When they're shooting back?
4) When they're surrounded by 500 others just like them?
5) When it's just a "higher up" like Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi?

i put a jihad on all of you!

The location would have at least saved the taliban on hearse costs. Just fill in the crater and place a communal headstone.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: And I think that right there is how we can defeat them. We let it be known that we will destroy their "shields" to get to them. When the shield knows that, they will fight those that would make them a shield. Then the enemy will kill them for refusing to be a shield. Now the blood is on their hands, not ours. The people they would use as protection will see who the real enemy is. If there are good people over there, who want to be out from under the tyranny of the bad people, they must fight them, from ceiling to floor. Even if it means their own demise. They can't just sit on the fence, watching and waiting. They should be fighting for their own freedom. Or at least helping us to help them to realize the dream of being all they can be under a freedom they have never known. By any means necessary.

if they weren't such uneducated, god fearing people, that may work.
remember - they are doing god's work.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: We are like them in the fact that we're on the opposite sides of the same war, and we kill each other.

But they deliberately target innocent people, including children. We don't.

quote Somebody please explain to me when it is okay to kill the enemy.

Always.

------------------
Who is John Galt?

quote Originally posted by fogglethorpe: Always.

The only time it's NOT ok is when that enemy has replacements that could be more dangerous the guy your currently dealing with. We don't want to make them martyr's. That could just fuel the next generation. Obviously that applies to leaders only. Other than them, I'm all for shooting first, and asking questions later.

To coin phrases--

"Put your faith in God"

"Kill them all and let God sort them out."

"War is Hell"

why couldnt this same drone, or another follow them after the funeral?
and then, in the evening, deliver the missles
that why I really think this was a load of BS
they could easily put things in action, or at least track the individuals afterwards
that was just a plain old crowd at a everyday funeral