Yall be knowin' some old men have told me on more than one occasion the biggest er tends to talk the most and the loudest. While there is no acustical volume in this thread there are volumes being wrote.

Just something that makes me Wonder.

No need to wonder Butter.. Just exhale and then Snnnnnnnnniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiifffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff!!!!

Ahhhh..Yes! Ya smell that bullshit?
Thats America BABY!!!

quote Originally posted by Butter: Just something that makes me Wonder.

YTM
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You tickle me!

quote Originally posted by fierobear: It wasn't meant as an insult. I just think that "I told you so" positions based upon hindsight are not very impressive. However, if you said that from the start, then you are excused from that criticism. Sorry if it sounded that way.

Well I told you so.

And then again I don't want even old WMD floating around.

From the beggining I said we shouldn't have put a single pair of boats on the ground. Why? Because Saddam is a fox and you just don't know what is real or not. There could have been WMD and I felt there was but alas they have not been found in the huge viable amounts thought. This doesn't mean they are not there or were not and anyone that says so in my opinion has an agenda to meet. We are talking about an area the size of California. If they are buried out there I hope whoever Saddam had bury them is dead and they will never be found.

What bugs me the most is that damn never everyone in office at the time said go for it and now you wimps refuse to take responsability for it.
We went. Who can say we are not better off though. I won't say it was a bad decision at the time even though I would have preferred other methods. We have not been attacked again(YET).

------------------
PLAY HARD-DIE FAST
"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten, that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods."
-- H. L. Mencken

quote Originally posted by Uaana: And this same expert told all the other allied intel agencies what they should think?

Umm... basically, except it wasn't the expert that told them that, it was our administration that released the reports they liked to the Brits and Israelis and then used their testimony on what they'd read as confirmation.

I saw some interesting remarks in this thread...

The report on the warheads said something like "they could be up to lethal" and Toddster declared something like "They are lethal!"

The DOD and Administration says they aren't WMDs, but a Senator says they are... and since that meets Toddsters agenda the Senator trumps everyone elses evaluation.

I saw something interesting in the US definition of a WMD... hope y'all don't have any fireworks with to much of a charge. 1/4 ounce makes it a WMD. Part of the attempt to broaden the fear and ability to prosecute people... "He was found with weapons of mass destruction... 3 m-80 firecrackers and a roman candle! Send him to Guantanamo!". NUCLEAR BIOLOGICAL CHEMICAL... that is WMD.... the ability to commit MASS destruction, not hurt a few people. My personal vision of a WMD is a weapon capable of killing thousands at a pop, not a car bomb, not a mortar, not a landmine or a roadside IED.

Another observation, someone mentioned chemical weapons being used by the insurgents/terrorists/unhappy people... there was a IED that supposedly contained sarin used quite a while back. It didn't harm anyone, but it was reported heavily for a bit.. a WMD that was confirmed and it didn't even kill a single person. Probably another leftover casing that the users didn't even realise contained something potentially really really nasty.

Would you rather wait for the mushroom cloud? Hmm... I would wait for the proof of the weopon and intent even if that might be the result. There are plenty of countries out there that have reached that point yet we are wasting lives and 100's of billions on this idiotic war/peace in Iraq with our eyes on repeating the mess in Iran.

I also noticed that Toddster continues to bring up the list of who voted to go to war... hmm, it was considered political suicide not to, the evidence as presented to the Congress indicated they should, but hold them accountable for the bad intel presented by the administration. The administration admits it's intel was faulty ( didn't lie!) but the only ones accountable are the Democrats that voted based on what was spoon fed to them?

Also it pisses me off a bit to see the quotes presented ad nauseum from during the Clinton era when we had proof that Saddam had weapons capabilities and the quotes were part of a windup to the attack used to destroy those capabilities. They weren't something that pertained to the Iraqi invasion initiated by Bush in any way. But hey if it sounds like it supports your world view keep bringing it out.

Just some observations...

Sorry to be away from my own thread for so long but I'm in San Diego with the family for WestFest 2006! We're getting a head start to make a real vacation out of it.

I see you still havn't filled your prescriptions yet Bill. But it looks like the forum is doing a good job or checking your reality for you in my absence.

Well, off to the zoo. Aidan wants to see the elephants...that's my boy!

Yeah Todd, have a good time and hope you don't get killed or anything bad like that.

Oh and be sure to get some pictures to send to the troops. I'm sure they want to know how much fun you are having and how good a job they are doing over there.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I see you still havn't filled your prescriptions yet Bill. But it looks like the forum is doing a good job or checking your reality for you in my absence. Well, off to the zoo. Aidan wants to see the elephants...that's my boy!

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-28-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yeah Todd, have a good time and hope you don't get killed or anything bad like that.

Wouldn't that be considered "crossing the line"?

Geez.

How do you mean?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Wouldn't that be considered "crossing the line"? Geez.

I always hope that people don't get killed, but apparantly saying it out loud is now somehow bad?

If only we had a book on what we can and cannot say, or maybe we need a Constitutional Amendment that spells out exactly what words we can use and how we can use them. A Master List would simplify things greatly I think.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I always hope that people don't get killed, but apparantly saying it out loud is now somehow bad? If only we had a book on what we can and cannot say, or maybe we need a Constitutional Amendment that spells out exactly what words we can use and how we can use them. A Master List would simplify things greatly I think. JazzMan

I suppose you know exactly how he meant it.

Oh thats right I forgot. You know everything. My bad.

Care to take a whack at it yourself or just sit back, point a finger, confer with your little coffee klucth then make som kind of democratic ruling everyone must follow from here on out?

Just be safe, I hope you don't go grabbing at your chest overnight stressing over this.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I suppose you know exactly how he meant it. Oh thats right I forgot. You know everything. My bad.

So this has denegrated into a battle of who will post last.
Heaven knows Bill just hates to not have the last word.

So eat crap and die you commie bastard.. I'll make this look like the Gwen thread just to make sure you don't get the last word.

Now go hide in your bunker, and pray that the rest of us protect your worhless, whiney ass.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Just be safe, I hope you don't go grabbing at your chest overnight stressing over this.

I don't want to wake up dead.
Dying in my sleep is my worst fear.

Bill unlike most of these people I know what makes you tick.
Are you inviting me to play? You know I won't.
Push your inuendo all you want it doesn't matter what people think you mean or why you said it as long as you get that rush.


Edit to add some one please post so I'm not the last one in this thread.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 06-29-2006).]

Not that I want a piece of this flame war, but I'm still waiting for Todd to explain how he can say:

quote Originally Posted by Toddster: A little something called experience and that is why I knwo that this war is the best thing that ever happed to this country.

And then 6 (of his) posts later on the same page, tell us:

quote Originally Posted by Toddster: WAR is not useless. It is regrettable, it is painful, it is something to be avoided at all other costs

So...the best thing to ever happen to this country is regrettable, painful, and something that should have been avoided at all other costs? Wow, I'd hate to think what the WORST thing to ever happen to the country is.

Also, would you mind posting your official, qualified, and industry supported guidelines on what is and isn't a real newspaper? All us actual journalists would sure like to know which news sources the realty/construction/rare book industry bless with the coveted approval of "real."

Then you know more about me than I do.

But just to clairify I'd like to say there are only two people (out of eleven thousand) who more or less have me pegged.
You arent one of them.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Bill unlike most of these people I know what makes you tick.

Good luck getting it out of him. I tried and failed but thats ok, aint the first time that has happened.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Not that I want a piece of this flame war, but I'm still waiting for Todd to explain how he can say:

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: I saw something interesting in the US definition of a WMD... hope y'all don't have any fireworks with to much of a charge. 1/4 ounce makes it a WMD. Part of the attempt to broaden the fear and ability to prosecute people... "He was found with weapons of mass destruction... 3 m-80 firecrackers and a roman candle! Send him to Guantanamo!". NUCLEAR BIOLOGICAL CHEMICAL... that is WMD.... the ability to commit MASS destruction, not hurt a few people. My personal vision of a WMD is a weapon capable of killing thousands at a pop, not a car bomb, not a mortar, not a landmine or a roadside IED.

The definition of a WMD has been pretty silly long since before 9/11. I was on jury duty for a case before 9/11 (it was in '99 or 2000) and the charge was "Possession of a Weapon of Mass Destruction." What was the weapon? A .22 cal sawed off bolt action RIFLE. Yup, a sawed off rifle. You'd be better off throwing the bullet at someone. But, according to the law, it's the modification to the weapon that makes it a WMD. Is it silly? Yes. But it's not a reaction to 9/11 paranoia or trying to change the definitions to make something fit a theory.

So you have to ask yourself what was on the administration's (and the U.N.'s) list of banned WMD in Iraq? If it's on that list, then you can consider that we've found WMD. Biological and chemical agents have always been considered WMD with regards to the U.N. sanctions in Iraq. It wasn't just about atomic or nuclear weapons.

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now
has weapons of mass destruction....What he wants is time,
and more time to husband his resources to invest in his
ongoing chemical and biological weapons program, and to
gain possession of nuclear weapons."
-- Dick Cheney, August 26, 2002

"We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.
I think Mr. El Baradei frankly is wrong"
--Dick Cheney, on NBC's `Meet The Press',
March 16, 2003

I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq,
from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will,
in fact, be greeted as liberators.
Vice President Dick Cheney, On March 16 2003 to Tim Russert


The streets in Basra and Baghdad are sure to erupt in joy in
the same way the throngs in Kabul greeted the Americans.
Vice President Dick Cheney
August 2002

The man is a prophet.
Anyone seen Gwen Stefani lately? Maybe SHE knows where those Iraqui nuclear missles are.
Apparently Dick Cheney forgot.
------------------


You?

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 06-29-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: So...the best thing to ever happen to this country is regrettable, painful, and something that should have been avoided at all other costs? Wow, I'd hate to think what the WORST thing to ever happen to the country is.

Wasn't the American Revolution a war? Pretty darn good for our country wouldn't you say? Still, it was regrettable that so many had to die so horribly for the benefit we reaped from it. Don't confuse the act of war with the rewards it often brings.

quote Also, would you mind posting your official, qualified, and industry supported guidelines on what is and isn't a real newspaper? All us actual journalists would sure like to know which news sources the realty/construction/rare book industry bless with the coveted approval of "real."

OK, I don't want to rattle off a list of newspapers since it get's into a he said/she said arguement. Let me simply apply a simple standard for journalism that ALL writers would assume:

1) Neither side is right or wrong. The minute you let your personal opinion on the nature of existence, your value system, or your personal involvement get in the way of your writing you have ceased to be a journalist and moved into the OP-ED world in which you are just one of 300 Million other Americans with an opinion...except you get to shove your opinion under the noses of million of other Americans who can't shove their opinons back at you. It's an abuse of power.

2) NEVER ASSUME FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE! I get SICK and TIRED of reading news stories that all begin with "The Bush Administration ONCE AGAIN...blah blah blah". The entire faked memos story regarding George Bush's service to this country assumed FIRST that he MUST be guilty of some crime since he is just such a bad guy. Did it ever give him the benefit of the doubt that you and I would expect? NO! If you have no facts, then your "guess" as to what happened is irrelevant, especially when based on your own prejudice. (BTW, I don't me YOU specifically, I mean it in the general sence for all writers).

3) Never take a job as a journalist and write about something you have a passionate interest in. You lose objectivity when you care about which team wins or loses.

4) NEVER write with a slant. You can still do ALL of the above and subtly force your opinion on the owrld and we all know it. For exapmle. "John Kerry attacked by Republicans for not releasing his old war records from over 30 years ago", "John Kerry unwilling to share with America the details of his questionable service in Vietnam"

Neither of these statements is inaccurate factually. Neither assumes facts not in evidence, but they CERTAINLY say two different things about the same topic.

A REAL journalist would have written, "John Kerry has so far refused to release detailed records of his military service in Vietnam. Republicans are using the failure to disclose as evidence of Kerry's desire to hide the truth. Kerry contends that the details of the incidence for which he was decorated by the military will only serve to draw attention away from the issues of the current election."

THIS is factual and allows me the reader to make up my own mind about motivation. It does not insult my intelligence the way ANY story in the SF Chronicle, for one example, does.

Be a good journalist by allowing people to think for themselves and decide for themselves what is right and wrong.

No.. He didn't forget. He knew damn well where they were! He knew it the whole time... I mean really.. How dumb do you think he is anyway?

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: The man is a prophet. Anyone seen Gwen Stefani lately? Maybe SHE knows where those Iraqui nukes are. Apparently Dick Cheny forgot.

After voting for the war, they need good reasons to call for withdrawal from Iraq.

It was not so long ago -- only four years -- that a significant number of Democrats in the U.S. Congress evaluated the available evidence and voted to authorize war with Iraq. Eighty-one Democrats in the House, including a fair number of liberals, endorsed a "Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq."

It's instructive to glance at that document now -- particularly since so many Democrats are adopting the pose of Poor Misled Legislators. Here is some of what those Democrats signed on to:

"Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary. ...

"Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq. ...

"Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people. ...

"Whereas members of Al Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq. ..."

No one forced those 81 Democrats to support the resolution. But since they chose to do so, one would expect that before utterly contradicting themselves, they would at least offer some explanation beyond the pathetic cry that they were duped.

Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., offered the most reasoned argument (and that is faint praise) for this switcheroo, claiming that "Two major failures led us to war. ... First was a massive intelligence failure in assessing Saddam's WMD capability. The second -- equally grave -- was the politicization of intelligence by the president. ... " No, it is the Democrats who have politicized the issue of intelligence. During the Clinton administration and during the long run-up to the Iraq war, every leading Democrat in the nation endorsed the view that Saddam was building WMDs. Only after the war dragged on did liberals begin to suggest that President Bush had invented the entire threat.

John Kerry, in his Senate floor speech, predicted that an American withdrawal would improve our reputation among the Europeans. Liberals worry a great deal about what the French think of us. They ought to spare some worry about what the Islamists think -- because as brutal as they are today, they will be even more ferocious when they smell blood in the water.

Mona Charen's column is distributed by Creators Syndicate.

Let me point out again for you, that the congress, nor the American public were told the information was fabricated.
The bush administration was told, it just didn't want to hear it.
That's the little detail you keep overlooking again and again.
I don't want to hear the crap about congress had the same information, It's just not true.

Actually I don't think congress can do anything at this point because that power (the power to withdrawl the troops) is solely at the disgression of the president. He can pretty much wave his hand and it's a done deal.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: After voting for the war, they need good reasons to call for withdrawal from Iraq.

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: Let me point out again for you, that the congress, nor the American public were told the information was fabricated. The bush administration was told, it just didn't want to hear it. That's the little detail you keep overlooking again and again. I don't want to hear the crap about congress had the same information, It's just not true.

Let me point out again for you, that the US intel wasnt the only intel used. Also the same intel that was used when Clinton and Gore said Iraq was a serious threat (that they did nothing about).
Saying over and over that it's all a lie does not change documented history.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Wasn't the American Revolution a war? Pretty darn good for our country wouldn't you say? Still, it was regrettable that so many had to die so horribly for the benefit we reaped from it. Don't confuse the act of war with the rewards it often brings.

I wouldn't call the revolutionary war regrettable. If we were to have another tomorow I wouldn't regret it in the least. Now I will give you that war is not a good thing and should only be used as the last possible resort. IE proven to be necessary. but when necessary it serves a spacific purpose.

Just read the first few lines and it becomes quite apparent.

quote The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776 The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

The Iraq war was not unanimous. I don't think any war since the revolutionay war was voted on and won by unanimous decission.

The outcome of the revolutionary war was this country... No bad for the sacrefices made by our founders. Not bad at all.

The outcome of the sand box war. Well, the king and his court have made tidy profits at the expense of "the people."

My benefit of the revolutionary war is my freedom of speech.. Ya know that littl annoying thing you can't stand... mainly when I use it?

My benefit from this current war is.... well... it is.... I'm paying more for fuel... The patriot act.. Fear of some boagyman... really cool stuff like that.


If I were to make a pro and con side by side comparison between the revolutionary war and the war in Iraq and even Afghanistan.. The revolutionary war is a clean sweep hands down winner in the benefits department. The other two are nothing but bullshit and worse.

quote Be a good journalist by allowing people to think for themselves and decide for themselves what is right and wrong.

I agree, just as long as your information is factual and balanced.

Heres the way I see it.
Say you have a neighbor that...starts out killing small animals. not yours, someone elses. Then one day he kills your neighbors. Do you wait around until he decides to come after you? or do you head him off at the pass. Its all about the man setting up a track record of proving it over and over that he's not to be trusted. He needs to be dealt with.
Second, about Iraq....think about it... The Middle east is, will continue to be and has been for thousands of years **** bowl. Fighting all time. What better place to have a central base in case of a 3rd world war. It's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time. You have port access, Oil reservses to move your troops, and it was the easiest place to take over.
You have to realize that its over more than just Oil or WMD. The media and the gov. use all this crap to distract us from whats really happening. Ok I'll stop now otherwise I'll start getting into conspiracy therories.

If you would pull your stupid head out of your ass long enough to realize that their "inaction" was actually the best god damn action they could have taken.

Probably went something like this.

Clinton: "What are those trucks used for in this picture?"
Expert: "We dont know sir. We can have a team look into it if you like."
Clinto: "No, that wont be necessary, that will be all"
Expert: "Yes sir"
Clinto: "Would you tell Ms Lewenski I'm ready to see her now."
Expert: "Yes sir"

Years later.. Same expert.

Bush: "Whuh dahh trouk rihhh there?"
Expert: "Huh?"
Cheney: "He wants to know what those truck are for."
Expert: "Oh.. uhhh We don't know sir."
Bush: "Hey Dickey.. you sposin dem thar be keemical biotenchical trouks?"
Expert: "Huh?"
Cheney: "He says they look like biologial chemical trucks used in the manufacturing and purification of WMD"
Expert: :::shuffels through papers::: "Uhh... no I don't think so but I can have a team check into it"
Bush: "Duh he said he dunt know? gawd dangit Dickey! what we pazen thems exports fer!"
Cheney: "Uhh No, He says go back and re examine the data again and report back next week.. we have a time table to keep"
Expert: "Yes Sir"
Cheney: "Would you tell the Saudi oil minister we will see him now"
Expert: "Yes Sir"

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Also the same intel that was used when Clinton and Gore said Iraq was a serious threat (that they did nothing about). Saying over and over that it's all a lie does not change documented history.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-29-2006).]

Nice reply Bill. I see you've had your daily dose of Kos and AirAmerica.

But by all means, please continue to revere a rapist. BTW bookmark that post, so you can refer back to it when we discuss elections and why the Dems keep losing.

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: Let me point out again for you, that the congress, nor the American public were told the information was fabricated. The bush administration was told, it just didn't want to hear it.

Uh, OK how many forms of delusional IS this statement?

Please stay away from MoveOn.org, you're damaging your brain.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Let me point out again for you, that the US intel wasnt the only intel used. Also the same intel that was used when Clinton and Gore said Iraq was a serious threat (that they did nothing about). Saying over and over that it's all a lie does not change documented history.

Just want to point out that the Bush administration ignored the intel that the Clinton administration left them along with the plan they'd worked out for dealing with Osama. The Bush administration backburnered it until 9-11.

As to WMDs and Saddam, the Clinton administration had different intel because it was a different time period. All those quotes the right wingers like posting about how the democrats said there were WMDs back in the late 90's are because there were and we launched an attack on Iraq to eliminate that threat.. You probably don't remember because there wasn't a carrier landing with "Mission Accomplished" banners by Clinton or tens or hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis or thousands of our dead to go along with that attack. Our military went in and took care of the problem, didn't get turned into targets for pissed off arabs.

quote I wouldn't call the revolutionary war regrettable. If we were to have another tomorow I wouldn't regret it in the least. Now I will give you that war is not a good thing and should only be used as the last possible resort. IE proven to be necessary. but when necessary it serves a spacific purpose.

Good. We are making progress. War is regrettable but some ties necessary. And in some cases it can be a good thing at the same time as a regrettable thing.

Let's move on to the next thought experiment...

quote The Iraq war was not unanimous. I don't think any war since the revolutionay war was voted on and won by unanimous decission.

The Revolutionary war was not unanimous either. Surely you have heard of the vast numbers of "Loyalists" and "Federalists"? In fact, American revolutionaries used a subtle trick at dinner parties to identify themsleves by picking up their fork with their left hand and transfering it to their right hand to eat. The British adheared religiously to the dogma of good table manners by eating with the left. This mannerism has become a commonplace event for Americans today and many Americans don't even know why they do it.

I digress. War is NEVER unanimous. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Spanish American, etc. ALL had their detractors. Some were arguablly necessary but if we waited for a unanimous vote, we'd be speaking some other language today.

quote The outcome of the revolutionary war was this country... No bad for the sacrefices made by our founders. Not bad at all. The outcome of the sand box war. Well, the king and his court have made tidy profits at the expense of "the people."

I do not know who the "king" is and what profits he has supposedly reaped but the fact is that this war has protected Amercian lives from another 9/11 and has planted the seed of democracy in a tyrannical part of the world where it WILL take off and spread, hence bringing long term peace to the region and the entire world. If it makes sense to fight to CREATE America why aren't you willing to fight to PRESERVE it?

quote My benefit of the revolutionary war is my freedom of speech.. Ya know that littl annoying thing you can't stand... mainly when I use it?

I love Freedom of speech, it allows me to tell little tyrannts to shut up.

quote My benefit from this current war is.... well... it is.... I'm paying more for fuel... The patriot act.. Fear of some boagyman... really cool stuff like that.

I see, is that the fuel that we went to war over? Yep, that sure worked out well didn't it. Go to war for oil and see prices go up by 150%. Hmm a little logic error there Bill. The patriot act is streamlining legal investigations and has not deprived one American of due process. Name one of 300 million of us...if you can. If Saddam and Osama etc are "Boagymen" then good, be afraid, be very afraid. Or you can be like Ellis in "Die Hard" and walk into the terrorists faces and say "Hey, Sprechenzi Talk?" BANG! Ooops, bad idea. The bad guys REALLY were bad. Whoda thought? Oh yeah that's right, I did.

quote If I were to make a pro and con side by side comparison between the revolutionary war and the war in Iraq and even Afghanistan.. The revolutionary war is a clean sweep hands down winner in the benefits department. The other two are nothing but bullshit and worse.

So the Revolutionary war was a clean sweep?? No negatives? How about the thousands of lost lives? American AND British. How about the economic upheaval? How about the fact that we now have a nation of people (mostly young) who take their rights for granted and feel no responsibility to the preservation of them?

IRAQ and Afghanistan? No Positives? how many times do you need to hear about the fact that Osama Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks? I mean you DO know that....right? Now he is on the run and incapable of launching a similar attack which he has VOWED to do again if capable. No benefit...at all? I can think of hundreds of benefits but I'll be satisfied if you can acknowledge just one.

You're strange Bill. You think Bush is a profiteer, you think Cheney really runs the government because the President of the United States has an IQ of a potato (as if any man could rise to that position in government and not be smarter than average), you think the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is about oil even though prices have gone up not down, you think it is NOT about national security even though we were victims of a MAJOR attack every year from 1993 to 2001 and when we took the fight to them the attacks stopped, etc.

You REALLY believe this stuff?

You spend too much time reading comic books.

The Attacks have Stopped??
Have you heard about Iraq todd?
2500 dead 16,000 disabled.
Real success story as long as it's not you and your chicken hawk friends, right.

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: The Attacks have Stopped?? Have you heard about Iraq todd? 2500 dead 16,000 disabled. Real success story as long as it's not you and your chicken hawk friends, right.

The attacks have stopped everywhere but Iraq.

quote Originally Posted by Toddster: Wasn't the American Revolution a war? Pretty darn good for our country wouldn't you say? Still, it was regrettable that so many had to die so horribly for the benefit we reaped from it. Don't confuse the act of war with the rewards it often brings.

So then the ends justifys the means? Pretty weak argument, especially when the means are as controversial as those of the Iraq war. You're really going to sit there and disassociate the perceived benefits of the Iraq war with its indisputable costs?

And are you really insinuating that the Iraq war was better for our country than the Revolutionary war?

"You're strange Bill. You think Bush is a profiteer, you think Cheney really runs the government because the President of the United States has an IQ of a potato (as if any man could rise to that position in government and not be smarter than average), you think the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is about oil even though prices have gone up not down, you think it is NOT about national security even though we were victims of a MAJOR attack every year from 1993 to 2001 and when we took the fight to them the attacks stopped, etc."

I'll have to go with Bill on that. Hate to break the news to you Toddster but it's all about making money and Cheney is the most powerful vice president in history. And why should this be strange to think this? Everyone knows Bush's ajenda on the war is to make lots of money and give tax cuts to the rich.

quote Originally posted by fierogtowner: "You're strange Bill. You think Bush is a profiteer, you think Cheney really runs the government because the President of the United States has an IQ of a potato (as if any man could rise to that position in government and not be smarter than average), you think the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is about oil even though prices have gone up not down, you think it is NOT about national security even though we were victims of a MAJOR attack every year from 1993 to 2001 and when we took the fight to them the attacks stopped, etc."

Every president is a profiteer. Jimmy Carter was a peanut farmer, soon after he took office there was a sudden shortage of peanuts and as a qonsiquence peanubutter got really expensive. Other presidents have done the same, all you need to do is look where the money goes.

quote I'll have to go with Bill on that. Hate to break the news to you Toddster but it's all about making money and Cheney is the most powerful vice president in history. And why should this be strange to think this? Everyone knows Bush's ajenda on the war is to make lots of money and give tax cuts to the rich.

On December 7th 1941 a fleet of aircraft poped up on a radar screen. The operators were told "Bahh just a flight of B-17s so go ahead and shut down the system and go home". The fleet mored at pearl harbor were pretty much obsolete hardware. The really important assets were oddly enough out at sea doing manuvers. The pretext to all this is the president wanted this nation to go to war with Germany but the people were resistant, railing against the lend lease program and any involvement the idea about going to war. Perl was the turning point needed to get this country involved.


Nah, tax cuts / tax breaks are pretty much equal across the board. YOU CAN use many of the deductions available to multi millionaires. You just need to know where to look and how to use them but all the information is there and available to you.

So, bear, as long as we sacrifice a few young Americans each week "forever" you can claim success.

How long can we bleed the economy 10's of billions a year on a credit card before the debt comes due.
The pentagon wants an "Extra" 17 Billion next year to replace worn and damaged equipment. That's on top of the actual cost of the war.

Some of our guys are on their third and fourth deployments there. Why, because support depends on not making supporters threatened by draft. So people can can preach the joy of war from the comfort of your home.

We have a president who refuses to listen to any alternative ideas, and has rove demonising any opposition as unpatriotic.
He never realises that the more information he has the better decision he can make. Prime example is his statement that he has no intention of seeing the movie on global warming. he lives in a tunnel.
Maybe it's time to look at alternatives that are good for your country rather than whats good for the republican party.
You may find that holding those within your party accountable will improve it. The constant labeling of opposition as the imaginary "dreaded liberal" serves no purpose but to divide the county.