My brother is a mechanic and all of the techs at his shop work under the 'flat rate' way of pay.

They basically get paid by the job. If a brake job calls for 3 hours, they get paid for 3 hours regardless of how much time they spend on it.

There are many job duties that have no 'flate rate' that they do not get paid for. For example, they have a 23-point inspection that takes 20-30 minutes that they do not get paid for. This is just one example.

How is this legal? How can an employer make you do something but not pay you for it?

There is no minimum at the shop, so if you only make 10 hours 'flat rate', even though you were actually working for 40 hours, they only pay you for the 10 hours.

Doesn't this break minimum wage laws?

Could someone enlighten me on how this works?

Depends on how much they get paid on the flat rate system.

As long as how many hours they work in a week doesn't fall below minimum wage and you are not worked over 40 hours, they can do any pay system they want.

Yeah...

I've gotta hand it to mechanics. I could never be one due to the sheer fact you get screwed by your employer left and right.

Most of the guys at my brother's shop pull 30 hours a week and work over 40.

My cousin a member of this forum but does not post much. (copbait) Works at a GM dealership as a mechanic under flat rate system.

I have seen him work 80hrs in a pay period and only take home the wages for 60. They have to pay at least a gaurnteed minimum under contract but that minumum is usually far less than his expected wage even if it was an hourly wage. He is currently finishing up his ticket with GM and then he said the day its over, GM and the flat rate system can kiss his behind. Don't get him wrong GM charges up the wazoo for repairs, but the mechanics are not seeing nearly what people think they are. I will see if I can get him to post in here on the topic.

For note, he works for Jim Pattison here in BC. From word of mouth around town, Jimmy is the biggest in local busniess but also the lowest in busniess ethics. I have never met the man so I can't say from first hand experience though.

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics

I work for a union that represents most auto technicians in the NY and NJ area. Most of them work under a master contract that gives them a minimum. guarantee of 40 hours a week. During the slow months (winter) they rely on the guarantee but most of the year they clock 50 - 80 hours in a 40 hour work week. Of course this will depend on the dealership they work for ex: right now GM and Ford are slow but the imports are over booked. In NY and NJ our "A" technicians make 27 to 32 dollars per hour depending on the location and dealership. So the flat rate is ok if you have a good contract.

Just a little perspective here from a fellow who used to be a GM Tech back in the mid-1970's...

At first, I just about starved, because I was slow and inexperienced, and did not know any of the "tricks of the trade". After about 2 years, and continual investment in more and more tools I got faster. I bought a lot of air tools, and learned procedures to do a particular job faster and faster.

Case in point, the shop I worked at was in Southwest Kansas, and I serviced a lot of four wheel drive trucks for oil and gas companies. Whenever it got muddy out in the fields, a lot of trucks blew the transfer case. I remember that flat rate for overhaul of a transfer case was 9 hours I think. First one I ever did took me about three nine hour days to finally get right. Then the second one took about a day and a half .

After I had overhauled about a dozen transfer cases, I got to where I could do one in less than nine hours. About the time I quit that job, and went back to college, I could do the job in about 5 hours. So I got paid nine hours flat rate for five hours of skilled, learned work.

Just for the sake of nostalgia. The shop charged $18.00 an hour for labor back then (remember this was pre-Carter administration), and I got 60% of that charge. In effect I would get $10.80 an hour if I could do right at the flat rate time. So on transfer cases, I got to where my time was worth $19.44 an hour. Not bad in 1976.
My shop foreman at the time called it "learning how to work".

I hated electrical problems, as that was not my forte. The shop foreman knew who was best at what jobs, and I got all the major driveline component work usually. Other guys got the electrical problems, tune-ups, brake jobs, AC problems, and what not. It worked out well at the time, as the other guys hated the major component R and R's. Mention pulling the engine out of a van, and that usually sent most of them into hiding.

That was almost 30 years ago now. Sometimes I wonder if I should have stayed in that business. Now I do it as a hobby, which is a whole lot different than doing it for a living.

Thats the reason I stoped being a mechanic for a living about 18 years ago, Depending on the work it could be feast or famine, and in some shops if you wern't part of the click you starved.

Cheers Beers n Gearz. Joe

This topic is right up my alley. I may start venting, we'll see how it goes!

I currently work at a tech at an Mercedes-Benz dealership. I get paid flat rate. There is no minimum, what I make is what I get. On average, in an 80 hour pay period, I usually pull about 100 hours. But it's been anywhere from 65-150 in the 2 and a half years or so that I've been on flat rate. I think it may very from state to state, but here, we are not required to do any work unless we get paid for it. And I'm a strict believer of this. Therefore, I won't do anything for free if it's forced upon me! Management, is constantly dogging us to do things for free, (i.e. complimentary 31 point inspections on EVERY vehicle, install company license plate frames, take required online tests, etc) and I will just simply not do them. I'm not gonna waste 1 hour everyday doing all this crap and not get paid for it. Our shop rate varies from $102 to somewhere about $130 per hour, and I get paid a whapping $16.50/hour. I'm working on vehicle ranging anywhere from $30,000 new, all the way to $200,000. If they expect me to work for free, they can just forget it. When they tell me I need to do this for free, or do that for free, I just say whatever, and pretty much never do it. I will do some things for free for the customers when it's my choice to do so. They told me I was required to take about 8 online tests which take about an hour a piece. They said I had to get them done by the end of the year (2005), or I'll lose my certification. I said, "Ok, are you gonna pay me to for it". And my manager said no. But anyone in that dealership who got paid an hourly wage, got paid to take those test. None of the flat rate technicians got paid a dime to take them. I refused to take them until they paid me for it. The end of the year came and went, and I was the only tech that never took them, apparently is what I found out, later. But even though I don't do any of the things they require me to do for free, I have never been written up for it, or even spoken to about it. Because they can't force me to do it. But they may however have me by the balls when it comes time for a raise, which is pretty much here already. And that's about the time I try to find another job.

Flat rate can work when it's not abused. That's the main problem. It's abused by the employers, and buy the manufacturers that produce the time guides that they will abide by when they pay for warranty repairs.

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'88 Fiero GT - 3.4L GM Crate engine
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/707857
'91 GMC Syclone - #449
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'02 Yamaha V-Max - it go fast

So its a system where you get rewarded for doing a good job and don't get paid well for being a slacker. I can see where a lot of people would have a problem with such a system.

It also provides price stability for the customer. A 3 hour job costs 3 hours of labor at any garage (the only difference being their hourly rates). Even at one garage, the customer doesn't get billed extra if the mechanic is a moron.

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: So its a system where you get rewarded for doing a good job and don't get paid well for being a slacker. I can see where a lot of people would have a problem with such a system.

I have no problem with the actual concept of paying per job if it is based on averages. Many dealerships are screwing over their mechanics by under-estimating the hours.

My main concern isn't with this part, my main concern is with mechanics not getting paid for the work they do. There are a lot of job responsibilities that do not involve direct "flat rate" work. Tasks such as filling out paperwork, dealing with customers, cleaning your area, etc. These are regular job tasks that mechanics should be paid for, but are not.

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: So its a system where you get rewarded for doing a good job and don't get paid well for being a slacker. I can see where a lot of people would have a problem with such a system.

Grid are you just trying to be all piss and vinegar or ???

The issue is Lets say 3 Fiero's go into a shop, all need rear exhaust gaskets done. Job pays 3 hours, first 2 mechanics get in there zip off the bolts swap em out in 2 hrs each. 3rd mechanic goes in there, and 4 out of 6 bolts are stuck he heats and works 3 out, but the 4th busts off in the head, spends a total of 6hrs fighting with it and gets it done.

However everybody on flat rate gets 3hrs of pay for the job. Uhm ya that is fair. Dealerships don't pay for stuck bolts on flat rate. At least none that I have ever heard.

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: However everybody on flat rate gets 3hrs of pay for the job. Uhm ya that is fair. Dealerships don't pay for stuck bolts on flat rate. At least none that I have ever heard.

Thats why you tell the customer it will be more time if the car is extra rusty/old or if you run into unexpected problems like broken bolts. If I know a job is going to be a PITA I'll have my service adviser let the customer know there might be more required once I get into the job. I'm not about to work on some POS for free. We also look up all our own labor times where I work and write our own estimates. It's up to the service advisor to sell it.

We also have a multi point inspection we do on cars at work, normally while doing an oil change. (Linclon/Mercury dealership) Sure, you dont get paid anything for doing it but a good mechenic will check a car over while he/she has it in the air doing other work. Anything I notice like bad brakes, loose balljoints/tie rods, oil leaks ect. I'll try to sell to the customer, then I get more hours. Works out good in the long run.

I think being a flat rate mechenic isnt soo bad. I work 40-45 horus a week and have been getting paid for 50-60 hours because thats how much work I get done. It sucks when it's slow but more than worth it when it's busy. I'd be angry if I got paid 40 hours every week but was doing 60 horus worth of work.

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: So its a system where you get rewarded for doing a good job and don't get paid well for being a slacker. I can see where a lot of people would have a problem with such a system.

No Flat Rape can only have positive results if you find the short cuts to get the job done faster period. It benefits the employer only.

quote Originally posted by Kekipi: No Flat Rape can only have positive results if you find the short cuts to get the job done faster period. It benefits the employer only.

Shortcuts are taken in this system. I hear stories all the time of people cutting and bending things out of the way just to save an hour or two. Happens all the time at the local Nissan dealership to take a radiator out.

Systems like this just don't work. If you pay by the job, many techs are going to do what they can get away with to get it done the fastest. I really can't blame the techs either.

I've seen the opposite here. The mechanics around here the few times I've actually paid someone else to do work did the time in half the book time, but of course I was charged the full rate. A mechanic that couldn't bring in at least double book time around here would quickly find himself unemployed.

As an example of the book time inflation, the charge for a steering column repair is three hours (last I looked) but I can do it in under an hour if I set my mind to it. That's part of the reason I only charge $20 if it's sent to me or $40 if I go do the column at the customer's location, instead of the $180 or more that a typical shop around here charges for the same repair.

Book time inflation is the primary reason I do all my own work now, I'm not going to pay someone 10 hours to do 4 or 5 hours of work.

JazzMan

The problem lies in the proficiency of the mechanic. The book says two jobs take 10 hours to do. He's able to to cut the time in half for both and knocks both out in a 10 hour day. He's only getting paid for the 10 hours on the job but the company is charging for 20 hours and the mechanic isn't getting the extra 10 hours of pay. If there was like a shareholding or the mechanic was able to be guarenteed his share of the flat rate, or holiday bonuses but it seems the company keeps more than their share.

BTW, who writes the book and when was the last time they were under a car?

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 06-15-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Kekipi: No offence but, You need to work for a shop.

I may not see it from the mechanic's point of view, but I do see it from a paying customer's viewpoint. I like having some expectation of the labor cost for a job before I take it in, rather than find out "well, Billy Bob worked on it, and it's his first day, so your tune up will cost $975." It would be nice to hear, "Our best mechanic did your work in half the time, so we're only going to charge you half." but I'm not so naieve that I think that'll ever happen. I'd just be happy to have a skilled mechanic do the job right the first time and get charged what I was quoted.

If it can only benefit the employer, I take it you've NEVER done a job under the book time listed and still charged for the full time, right?

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 06-15-2006).]

The flat rate charge always seemed a lot longer than what it actually took.. The flat rate says the job takes four hours, the good mechanic takes two hours and gets paid for four. The mechanic at the dealership where I bought my Fiero was the transmission expert and could overhaul a transmission in a lot less time than the flat rate, making good money. Although he told me of a time where the rebuild didn't work and had to redo the work three times (a misdiagnosed problem), until it was right. He got paid the flat rate.

The problem arose when there wasn't enough work for 40 hours of flat work available.

For the customer, the service writer looks up the cost in the flat rate manual to give the customer an estimate. Should the customer be charged 3x, for the repairs when they are done wrong? Should the mechanic be paid 3x for faulty repairs?

I'm not sure of what the mechanics made hourly, but me the customer, was paying $75/hour for labor plus cost of parts. The good mechanics made good money. The flat rate is the incentive to work smart.

Mechanics generally get commission plus a (usually fairly low) base hourly rate.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: The problem lies in the proficiency of the mechanic. The book says two jobs take 10 hours to do. He's able to to cut the time in half for both and knocks both out in a 10 hour day. He's only getting paid for the 10 hours on the job but the company is charging for 20 hours and the mechanic isn't getting the extra 10 hours of pay. If there was like a shareholding or the mechanic was able to be guarenteed his share of the flat rate, or holiday bonuses but it seems the company keeps more than their share. BTW, who writes the book and when was the last time they were under a car?

My thoughts on this is that if the mechanic is getting screwed so badly, maybe he should man up, take the risk, and open his own shop. He may make more overall in a day, but he also assumes the risks and liabilities in owning his own business.

Nobody is forcing them to work there.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Grid are you just trying to be all piss and vinegar or ??? The issue is Lets say 3 Fiero's go into a shop, all need rear exhaust gaskets done. Job pays 3 hours, first 2 mechanics get in there zip off the bolts swap em out in 2 hrs each. 3rd mechanic goes in there, and 4 out of 6 bolts are stuck he heats and works 3 out, but the 4th busts off in the head, spends a total of 6hrs fighting with it and gets it done. However everybody on flat rate gets 3hrs of pay for the job. Uhm ya that is fair. Dealerships don't pay for stuck bolts on flat rate. At least none that I have ever heard.

Yes, I was apparently a little full of piss and vinegar by the tone of my post...but

I still disagree. I don't think you need to cut corners. I think you need to be competent. If you are continually getting screwed, then your employer is either a) shafting you on the jobs, or b) hiring the wrong mechanics. Is there room for emplyer abuse? Yes...there always is. I still think that it is pretty sweet that a competent mechanic can get paid for more hours than they put in.

I also find it in my experince the people that complain the most about the system being unfair are usually the ones that can't work within that system. At least thats the way it is at my workplace.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: My thoughts on this is that if the mechanic is getting screwed so badly, maybe he should man up, take the risk, and open his own shop. He may make more overall in a day, but he also assumes the risks and liabilities in owning his own business. Nobody is forcing them to work there.

I'm sure in the perfect world, every mechanic has the capital or access to the capital to open up his/her own shop.

In very short... (I've spent enough time wasted on flat rate discusions.)

Flat rate should be illegal. The problem is that no one has actually challenged it in court that I know of. Making people work off the clock is blatantly illegal in most states. Walmart and other retailers have been sued repeatedly for just that issue alone.

Flat rate is a ripoff to both labor and the customer. Frankly it is a gross consumer fraud in many cases.

Labor:
1. Can make money when a job that says 3 hours can be done in 30 minutes using shortcuts and outright cheating that will very often mean comebacks on the vehicle.
2. Gets shafted when a job that says 3 hours takes 10 because of damaged/rusted hardware and other problems.
3. Can be screwed by the shop owner that purposely gives certain mech's the jobs they know are likely to go overtime.

Customer:
1. Pays for 3 hours on # 1 above, which more often than not means the car will be back in the shop. Likely on more time that will be billed to them as well.
2. On some ocassions may make out because of #2 and/or #3 above but only if they don't have to keep coming back.

Customer includes both off the street vehicle owners and car makers. GM, Ford and others use Flat Rate to determine warranty payouts to dealers. This is a huge factor in why so many warranty repairs, including recalls, end up in people going back the dealers again and again to fix the same problem or other problems caused by shoddy work.

The warranty/recall information is semi public. You can get access to much of it thru Alldata and a few other sources. The Fiero L4 labor reimbursement on the engine fire recall is arround 1.5 - 2 hours total as I remember. (I don't have it in front of me right now.) Even if nothing goes wrong, you'd be fairly hard pressed to fix all of it in the time alloted.

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(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

I agree with the above ^. That's why I think it's wiser to have close friends to work a car for you and give you a reasonable price.

On off the clock and other unpaid OT... It goes way beyond retail or auto service.

This has also come up in the computer industry. Microsoft, Electronic Arts, and a number of other companies have taken PR heat and legal action over unpaid OT.

Worse... Other companies have used MS/EA situations as an excuse to demote "exempt" IT personel to "hourly" even in situations where ther was no real issue with unpaid OT. (Before you ask, I have specific cases I cannot talk about.) In this case, the people would work odd hours and take other hours off... so called "comp" time that is frequently as good or better than OT payed.

Even when you don't loose pay or other benifits up front, the change from Exempt to Hourly is ALWAYS a demotion. I don't have time to explain it all here and some of it I can't talk about safely. What I will say is that Hourly is a short hair above Contractor at most major corporations. Hourly people that are smart never let Exempt people know that they are hourly.

Why is that an issue? You didn't loose pay, vacation, etc...

Because the Hourly/Exempt line is also the Benifit line. When they don't take things up front, it doesn't mean they can't take it back later because you are at a lower level. When it is a "mid year" change, the difference won't likely show up until later when you are going thru medical insurance and 401K update time. The hourly people almost always see a different set of benifits than exempts. I have never seen a company that didn't rate hourly people lower than exempts. And while the people that got demoted won't imediatly see a change... anyone hired into those groups will get the lower hourly starting benifits.

Something many people over look on payed OT... Unless you are very carefull, payed OT can push you into higher tax. Even when it doesn't... Unless you can work at least 6-12 hours OT, you didn't make much. I stopped working payed OT years ago because of just that. It ends up better in the end to take the comp hours in many cases.

Flat rate usually sucks for the customer and the mechanic because it is often used to cover up management deficiencies and manufacturer screwups.

Warranty times suddenly drop like a rock when there is a recall, that transmission that each year gets harder to work on as it gets more complicated and stuffed in with more and more wrapped around it had the time go down quarter by quarter as the accountants attempt to save money by screwing the techs. Chrysler had a 10+ hours transmission job down to under 4 hours by the time it hit a recall. A super tech with a bunch of them under his belt might be able to knock it out in 6-8 hours. He ate a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on the pay he made getting to that point, an indy tech that sees his first one is more likely to take 12 hours or more.

Like Ogre said, it invites fraud... under recalls there is an issue calling ghosting the repair. Tech gets car, fills out paperwork, installs recall sticker and gets part. Part goes in trash or toolbox and car gets billed out to manufacturer. Or as stated, shortcuts that end up in broken and damaged parts, stuff left out etc.

Why? Again it's the fight it brings between tech and whoever is paying the tech. Way to many shops go to flatrate to 'control costs' when the cost problem isn't the tech... it's the management. Tech doesn't have the parts available when a repair is in progress... he's standing around with thumb up his ass not because he's lazy, but because the support people aren't doing their job and decided the solution is to not pay the tech except when he's turning a wrench. Not doing your work attracting customers and getting booking right for the day? Doesn't hurt as bad when your not paying the tech that has to stand around waiting for a ticket to work on, even though it isn't his fault management is screwing up. Overhire? Doesn't matter on flat rate to shop owner... guys standing around with no work only leaves them hunger and broke come payday.

I've personally seen it abused even worse than the above. I agreed once to flat rate and come payday was expecting a couple of grand, got told my total was 600 bucks. Shop owner decided that since he was couponing oil changes for $12.95 I only got paid $1 each for the labor... flat rate guides call for .3 to .5 an hour and we'd agreed to $25/hr rate. I'd done nothing but oil changes all day one day... about 20 of them so should have made $250 and he had me down for $20 for a days wages. He also was covering up his misbillings by wiping out work I'd performed with "Well I couldn't charge that much".

Oh yeah... he also didn't have the money to pay me on payday. I left and it took me more time and effort to collect my pay than it was worth, it took almost a year.

I'm now on hourly at a shop that performs custom work, I try to give the owner and customer their money's worth. I'm presently installing an engine in a 97 Mustang Cobra where the engine is custom, it's supercharged and intercooled and I wasn't the one that took it and the rest of the driveline out... think I should get paid flat rate from a manual for install engine? I was given a bunch of boxes of nuts, bolts, tubing, brackets... the engine, transmission and driveshaft and told "Put this back together". Not a problem, I'm hourly and the owner of the shop knows I'm going to do it right but that there is no book time for something like this. He just trusts me to figure it all out and do it right. Today I took the cradle back out of the car, mounted the engine to cradle, clutch and transmission to engine, cradle back in car, driveshaft in, interior back together, suspension and steering back together, and a lot of the engine dress back on. I think I'll have it fired up before close of business tommorrow if all goes well, but this car has been apart for about 6 months waiting on custom parts and while doing my part I've found some broken and apparently missing items. If I was being paid flat rate, this WHOLE job (not just my putting it together but the taking it apart part also...) pays 11 hours warranty time or 20.9 hours standard flat rate. Notice that warranty time is what a dealer tech would get paid to replace the long block from start to finish while the vehicle still was under manufacturer warranty. Once it's out of warranty the tech gets paid for 20.9 hours for the same job. Times have gotten much worse for the techs since 1997 for most Ford techs.

A Mercedes tech just let you know he's making $16 something an hour... I bet the shop rate is over $100 an hour, probably over $125. I was making that working at a Precision Tune 15 years ago at a shop rate of $65/hr. The squeeze is on the techs, the times keep dropping so you can't honestly bill out as many hours as you could 20 years ago, the pay rate has stagnated while the shop rates continue to climb and the tools get more and more expensive.

So I found a quality shop whos customers are willing to pay to have it done right, not cheap. They estimate by flat rate somewhat but the bill is based on actual time because just about everything is custom work. I've been a bit freaked out by my own productivity the last two weeks because of the range of work but the owner says he's happy with me and not to worry about it. For example I've rewired a 66 Nova (with over a 1/.4 mil dumped into it) that the wiring harness caught fire while pushing it into the shop for electrical work, I've redone the fuel lines on a 6.9 Ford diesel with an old aftermarket turbo kit, fixed a leaking high pressure line to the turbo on an 82 audi 5000, replaced the head gasket and timing belt on a 89 Turbo Lebaron, installed a turbo timer on a honda with missing parts so I had to build my own harness for it, did a bunch of work on a Turbo Regal with driveability and electrical issues, and now this engine install... Think I should be expected to work on all this stuff based off of a flat rate manual that assumes you'll get fast at that particular job about the 3rd or 4th time you do it in a row and the time is based off of what a manufacturer claims it can be done in when they are paying for the job?

quote Originally posted by fierogtowner: I agree with the above ^. That's why I think it's wiser to have close friends to work a car for you and give you a reasonable price.

You mean, fix your car cheep so he or she can get on with business making money to pay off all the tools he or she has to buy so they can beat the flat rape times.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I've seen the opposite here. The mechanics around here the few times I've actually paid someone else to do work did the time in half the book time, but of course I was charged the full rate. Book time inflation is the primary reason I do all my own work now, I'm not going to pay someone 10 hours to do 4 or 5 hours of work. JazzMan

Agreed. I've noticed the flat rate is charged only if it takes LESS time than the book time estimate. As soon as it's over that, you get switched to hourly rate which can really shoot up the price!! It a "no lose" position for the shop, the customer is always screwed.