My uncle was captured at Dieppe. He survived Buchenwald. He went in a 200 lb man and came out an 80 lb man.

The original question was "Did 6 million die in WWII", not "did 6 million die in the death camps".

The death camps accounted for millions of people, and that is well documented. Don't forget the Japanese death camps too.

The Russians lost millions upon millions due to starvation alone. I don't think anybody has a firm number, and estimates vary, but, for anybody caught up in WWII it was a nightmare. The Jewish people though, have the closest accounting because Hitler did try to eradicate them and the post war administrations recovered millions of documents showing who was killed in the organized cull of the Jewish people.

Are the figures out a million? Who knows. If they are out, it is because millions died without any record.

Arn

My father in law was a sergent that liberated one of those Nazi camps at the end of WWII. I don't remember which one, but he stayed behind after the fighting ended with his tank battlion and was put in charge of a all black unit to help liberate camps. The gas chambers, mass graves and all were the most horrifing thing he said he had ever seen in his life. They made the germans from the nearby town come in and help with those that were still alive. They wanted those Germans to see what was happening right under thier noses so they would never forget.

Henry gives talks to local High Schools about his experiences during WWII as a sergent in Pattons 737th tank battlion and the camps. If you want to see Henry mad just tell him the those camps were a hoax, it never happened, and that 85 year old man just might kick your butt out of sheer anger. Henry always said he thought those numbers were low at 3 million based on what he saw.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: One of the reasons I tend to jump in and speak up when I see people proposing the same things that led to the rise of fascism in europe. Why it bothers me that I'm seeing a lot of it already in place here in the US.

Amen Brother. The rise of creeping socialism is particularly scary because socialism by it's very nature requires that freedom and rights be forfeit. An example; Social Security is compulsory. Why? If it were voluntary few people would participate because it's THE WORST FRAUD IN THE HISTORY OF THE PLANET. Our government is no longer for the people; by the people. North Carolina is now in the midst of a huge campaign financing scandal. The Democrats have had a strenglehold on the state since reconstruction. Even this scandal will not break their hold on the legislature. The Democrats have carved out a kingdom where a few have control over all the state money. The Republicans have no input and the Democrats who don't kiss the arse of these power brokers have no chance of getting any crumbs. I cannot understand why the people of this state keep electing Democrats. They are unbelievably corrupt.

quote Originally posted by larryemory: The rise of creeping socialism is particularly scary because socialism by it's very nature requires that freedom and rights be forfeit.

A thread about the atrocities of ultra RIGHT wing Nazi Germany and you manage to put your twisted slant on the whole thing. Lovely...

I have read plenty of books on the topic, my favorite being "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer, and he says in there the best accounts from Nazi documents are between 3 and 4 million. However, many of their documents were being destroyed as Germany was falling to the allies so no one will ever really know the true number. I am looking for the passage in the book where he addresses this, but I remember that number from memory.

quote Originally posted by larryemory: I have one question? When it come to atrocities tha Nazis are always held up as an example. True they are but the numbers pale when compared to the numbers starved, murdered, executed by The Communist.

Well, I think it is b/c the Soviet-era death programs came to light well after the Nazis were already established as "leaders in the field", so to speak. Also, the Nazis accomplished their results in much less time. Certainly both regimes are a frightening example of what people can do to each other when they really put their minds to it. But, to me the Nazi example is the most sobering b/c there was so much "looking the other way" that made it possible, and so many examples of ordinary Nationalists who couldn't bring themselves to stand up to the regime once the horrors were coming out into the open.

I love it how when you disagree or question numbers your labeled a nazi or a racist. Or how "oh that webpage is biased" So I guess everyone but jews are liars? Ok.

It's really starting to smell bad in this thread.

HOW much money is being shelled out? Just a few examples of the never ending holocaust trial.

explain the likes of this http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-03-02T210955Z_01_N02345188_RTRUKOC_0_US-RIGHTS-HOLOCAUST.xml&archived=False

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050311-103500-9136r.htm

so why should these people she shelling out mass amounts of cash 60 YEARS later?

quote Originally posted by STIFFLER: I love it how when you disagree or question numbers your labeled a nazi or a racist. Or how "oh that webpage is biased" So I guess everyone but jews are liars? Ok.

Hmmm I don't think anyone called you a racist or a nazi. I'm pretty sure some of us think you're kinda shallow minded or easily influenesed but even that could be wrong. Sometimes it is hard to know someones true meaning on this board.
But just so there is no confusion I will tell you I think you're a moron. At least as far as this subject is concerned.

quote Originally posted by STIFFLER: I love it how when you disagree or question numbers your labeled a nazi or a racist.

I think it's the use of that word "Zion".

quote Originally posted by STIFFLER: The great world of zions.

Some see it as a kind of "warning trigger".

quote Originally posted by STIFFLER: Really? were you there did you see these things

In a sense. There WAS an Anthony Amelio who liberated those camps. That would be my grandfather. A man whose word I hold in high regard. He had a photographer in his company too. He has several pictures of himself and his buddies at Hitlers Eagle's Nest retreat, on the road in the Arden, and liberating several camps. My grandfather is 5'1" and 110 pounds. He looked FAT next to some of the people in these pictures.

If you doubt it happened, You're a fool and a racist.

quote or did you base your opinions on the jewish produced schindlers list?

Once again you show your ignorance. "Schindler's List" the movie is based on the book "Schindler's Ark" written by Australian Writer Thomas Keneally...who is NOT Jewish.

You're an ignorant Fool!

quote MANY ppl escaped some hid in knee deep piss and **** others hit in attics and in walls. Funny how when anyone even questions the fact that maybe it wasent 6 million that died all hell breaks loose. When I mention armenians being slaughterd nobody seems to comment. The great world of zions.

NO ONE is questioning the number of murder victims for one simple reason, the Germans keep lists of the victims. They are ALL accounted for. You'ld know that if you ever visited the Aushwitz death camp.

And once again you don't get it. It does not matter how many died. I REPEAT..."whether the tally is 6 million or 6 doesn't change the horror of the act or lessen the culpability of the perpetrators."

Now run along you jack ass. Don't you have some flys to tear the wings off.

Todd it is time for your nap. You're getting cranky.

Hey maybe he's referring to the state park, or the town... or maybe he is using it as a derogatory term because he doesn't even know what the word means.

What is Stiffler's problem with people who got robbed of millions getting their stuff back or compensated?

What... if your government's officials steal all your stuff and sends you off to die but you live you don't deserve to get your stuff back or compensation?

In the case of the Army officers that plundered the train delivering the property stolen from the jews that had been sent off to die... because they stole stolen stuff they shouldn't have to give it back or compensate the true owners when it's discovered?

What does 60 years have to do with it? I noticed on the theft of 60-60 million, the settlement is for 21 million given to the needy, not the owners. So someone got 60 years use out of their bad deed AND gets the government to pay it off (since the perpetrators were in their employ) at 1/3 the loss not including the jewelry etc. In a normal court the victim should get interest and triple damages... so what is your complaint? Of those whose stuff was stolen and shipped off by the french to die, 3% survived... that's 97% of them died... can't really compensate that can you? So a relatively small sum to help out the survivors doesn't sound like so much to ask.

Again, what is your problem with that? I'm not a big fan of restitution generations later for damages you can't calculate like suffering of parents and grandparents decades earlier... but the cases you posted are about tangible assetts. They can show what was stolen, who benefitted and who survived that should be compensated. Does that fact that it was covered up for decades negate the crime and responsibility?

some info on holocausts of the 20th century

http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko12530/holocausts.htm

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Patrick, stop adding stupidity to stupidity. NAZI was an acronym for the National "SOCIALIST" Party.

Todd, before you accuse anyone else of "adding stupidity", perhaps you should double-check your political history books. The NAZI party was not a "socialist" party in the conventional manner that we would associate with left-wing/right-wing politics. This has all been explained numerous times in these forums to right-wing members here who have trouble stomaching the facts.

Whats my problem with that?

A: WHY should they get anything? there are millions of other people in thr world who lost everything but you dont see the local rabbi's fighting for there belongings back. You dont see blacks being compinsated for slavery. THERE are many other cultures who have gone through worse. Argueing that they should get it is like argueing you should being paying you for your grandfathers mistakes or for something your family took part in 60 years ago. Suck it up and get over it. Millions of other people have nearly been wiped out but knowone is scavageing the world looking for handouts.

So since your so hung up on them getting a handout go save everyone else while your at it. Kinda like canada handing out millions to pakistan yet we still have people living on the street.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Todd it is time for your nap. You're getting cranky.

I get a headache reading drivel.

...Now where is that bottle of Excedrin?

Original red cross document of auschwitz:

http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm some other interesting inputs.

quote Originally posted by STIFFLER: Whats my problem with that? A: WHY should they get anything? there are millions of other people in thr world who lost everything but you dont see the local rabbi's fighting for there belongings back. You dont see blacks being compinsated for slavery. THERE are many other cultures who have gone through worse. Argueing that they should get it is like argueing you should being paying you for your grandfathers mistakes or for something your family took part in 60 years ago. Suck it up and get over it. Millions of other people have nearly been wiped out but knowone is scavageing the world looking for handouts.

"THERE are many other cultures who have gone through worse." Your words... describe worse please.

Many others made have suffered things as horrible, I can't imagine worse than being starved and worked to death, gassed, burned, shot, having experiments done on you, being tortured etc... maybe being forced to listen to 'It's a small world afterall' non stop for days on end would qualify?

Now it's complaining about local rabbis not fighting other peoples battles. How do you know what local rabbis are doing? I doubt you even know what a rabbi actually is. Go do a google search and find out. Once again it sounds like your laying the worlds problems at the feet of the jews. What are you doing to right some wrongs? To make the world a better place? Is having a problem with jews helping?

quote Originally posted by STIFFLER: So since your so hung up on them getting a handout go save everyone else while your at it. Kinda like canada handing out millions to pakistan yet we still have people living on the street.

Your the one apparently hung up on it... and the slaves were compensated if not well, heard of 40 acres and a mule? Racists managed to steal most of that back in the south later on. The drug addict on the corner is asking for a handout, a handout is asking for something for nothing.

So let me get this straight... if I steal your car and keep it let's say a year... you won't want it back or compensation? How about 2 years... 5 years... at what point if you find out I have your car do you say keep it? What if it was the crown jewels? How about everything owned by everyone in British Columbia?

There is a lawyer here in the US that has had a stolen mega million dollar painting in his attic for decades... should the owner get over it? They just found out 30 years later where it is, should the lawyer who took it from the original thief get to keep it?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/02/01/1978_art_heist_solved/

http://www.solidarity-us.org/atc/102ortiz.html

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I get a headache reading drivel.

Best you avoid reading your previous post then, as well as all of Hitler's... I mean Stiffler's.

Ok, so the testimony of thousands of people who were there isn't good enough.
The pictures of what went on isn't good enough.
The last site he linked to seems like a joke it twists the truth so bad... the guy who was performing experiments on people is depicted as a skilled doctor.. nice if he wasn't experimenting on you I guess.

A video where a revisionist interviews someone that wasn't there though is proof enough it didn't happen... hey nice standards.

It will be so much easier when the last survivors that watched their loved ones perish first hand are gone, but for now you have to deny them as unreliable witnesses. Damn the thousands of video interviews...

[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 03-02-2006).]

STIFFLER let it go. Too many bleeding hearts on here. Plus if your beliefs differ from everyone else youre labeled a racist and a hate monger.

I love how people make up numbers, or claim to "know" so many "facts"

"The Final Solution" was created not only to be efficient but to minimize the trauma for German officers. Separating the men from the women, and then the children from the women, then to machine gun them all down in mass graves including the babies. That led to most German officers and troops to commit suicide. Yeah, they weren't human at all.

Demonizing Germans who were just doing their job is pretty pathetic.
Unlike all those "American" soldiers who fled to Canada to avoid Nam and the Iraq war. What jokes they are.

sondercommando. Anyone familiar with this? I like how people forget about those "victims".

The point is Stiffler if you go against what "civilized society" says is right and wrong. You will be a racist, etc.

meine Loyalität ist meine Ehre

quote Originally posted by UDLOSE: STIFFLER let it go. Too many bleeding hearts on here. Plus if your beliefs differ from everyone else youre labeled a racist and a hate monger. I love how people make up numbers, or claim to "know" so many "facts" "The Final Solution" was created not only to be efficient but to minimize the trauma for German officers. Separating the men from the women, and then the children from the women, then to machine gun them all down in mass graves including the babies. That led to most German officers and troops to commit suicide. Yeah, they weren't human at all. Demonizing Germans who were just doing their job is pretty pathetic. Unlike all those "American" soldiers who fled to Canada to avoid Nam and the Iraq war. What jokes they are. sondercommando. Anyone familiar with this? I like how people forget about those "victims". The point is Stiffler if you go against what "civilized society" says is right and wrong. You will be a racist, etc. meine Loyalität ist meine Ehre

What a load of rubbish.

You and Stiffler should create your own little hate club.

quote Originally posted by UDLOSE: STIFFLER let it go. Too many bleeding hearts on here. Plus if your beliefs differ from everyone else youre labeled a racist and a hate monger. I love how people make up numbers, or claim to "know" so many "facts" "The Final Solution" was created not only to be efficient but to minimize the trauma for German officers. Separating the men from the women, and then the children from the women, then to machine gun them all down in mass graves including the babies. That led to most German officers and troops to commit suicide. Yeah, they weren't human at all. Demonizing Germans who were just doing their job is pretty pathetic. Unlike all those "American" soldiers who fled to Canada to avoid Nam and the Iraq war. What jokes they are. sondercommando. Anyone familiar with this? I like how people forget about those "victims". The point is Stiffler if you go against what "civilized society" says is right and wrong. You will be a racist, etc. meine Loyalität ist meine Ehre

omg. at what point ARE you a racist then? Is there some line you have to cross that you haven't done yet? Wait wait, let me guess.. You can't be racist, you have a black friend? (seems to be the typical response)

And did you just compare draft dodging to nazi germany?!

quote Originally posted by UDLOSE: STIFFLER let it go. Too many bleeding hearts on here. Plus if your beliefs differ from everyone else youre labeled a racist and a hate monger. I love how people make up numbers, or claim to "know" so many "facts" "The Final Solution" was created not only to be efficient but to minimize the trauma for German officers. Separating the men from the women, and then the children from the women, then to machine gun them all down in mass graves including the babies. That led to most German officers and troops to commit suicide. Yeah, they weren't human at all. Demonizing Germans who were just doing their job is pretty pathetic. Unlike all those "American" soldiers who fled to Canada to avoid Nam and the Iraq war. What jokes they are. sondercommando. Anyone familiar with this? I like how people forget about those "victims". The point is Stiffler if you go against what "civilized society" says is right and wrong. You will be a racist, etc. meine Loyalität ist meine Ehre

You are a MORON also.

quote Originally posted by UDLOSE: I love how people make up numbers, or claim to "know" so many "facts" "The Final Solution" was created not only to be efficient but to minimize the trauma for German officers. Demonizing Germans who were just doing their job is pretty pathetic. The point is Stiffler if you go against what "civilized society" says is right and wrong. You will be a racist, etc. By the way, it's pretty obvious where your loyalty lies.

WHAT ABSOLUTE TRASH! You should frankly be ashamed of yourself for posting this. What the heck is wrong with you! "Just doing their job" is nothing more than an excuse, plain and simple. Their job should have been to refuse to do that kind of "job". The only pathetic thing here is that you and Stiffler actually belive the vile crap that you are spewing. Go give your head a shake. Right and wrong is obviously something that you have no grasp of what so ever. This kind of crap disgusts me and is unfathomable.

By the way, it's pretty obvious where your loyalty lies...

[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 03-03-2006).]

Wow. Just wow.

I truely can't believe some of the stuff I've read here, and I didn't read it all.
1 million/6 million. Does it matter that much? Does it make it any less of a genocidal atrocity? A smaller mark of dirty shame on the species of mankind? Hardly. By the Nazi's own official description, it was openly called The Final Solution. How much clearer does it have to get? If it didn't reach the 6 million mark, it was simply because they ran out of living breathing minorities, or because the war went badly for them. Had they been the victor in WWII, there's little doubt what was in store for the rest of the non-Aryan population of the world.

I don't hold the German people today personally responsible for what happened, but it is a cross they will have to bear for eternity. That's just the way it is. Their lineage did it, and their lineage stood by with their heads in the sand and let it happen, while the rest of the world stood in shock and disbelief that it even COULD happen.

When people compare other atrocities to the holocaust in Germany in the late 30s-to mid 40s, in order to lessen the percieved impact of what Hitler devised in his sick little mind, they are deluding themselves. Of course, equal shame is what happened in the USSR, Sudan, Cambodia, Rhodesia, South Africa, and let's not forget our own brand of shame here in North America (Native American Indian decimation and the importation of Africans as slaves--this is our own cross of shame to bear). Even here in my home state, what happened to the lands of many legal and law abiding US citizens of Mexican descent is just wrong. Many, with clear and legal deeds to lands, were just driven off at gunpoint--long after the Texas war for independance from Mexico had ended. Another heavy cross.

There is no justification for any of it, no refuge in lessening the total numbers, no way to make it any more palatable. It's sickening and shameful no matter what brush is used to try to gloss over any of it. In sheer #s, over a comparitivly short period of time, the Nazi endeavor stands head and body above the rest in most of our minds simply because it was against people who had done nothing to deserve the treatment. They were just there. That was their crime. They existed. The Nazi's could have chosen a much cheaper and less time consuming method of getting unwanted citizens from their country. Mass deportation into Switzerland for example. The same trains that went to the death camps could have easily have been used just to drive to the Swiss border and dump the families off at the checkpoint. They chose instead, enslavement, murder, expermintation of un-Godly proportions and cruelty, then starvation, and murder--there's no other word for it--it was planned, intentional MURDER of civilians, and there is no statute of limitations on murder. Old men, babies, women, children, the almost born, the invalid, the rich, the poor--no one was left out of the spectrum.

Why restitution even these many decades afterwards? Because there is no statute of limitations on this sort of thing and there shouldn't be either financially or in our minds. It is absolutely imperitive that we as a species always remember what dark undertakings we are capable of under the right (wrong?) circumstances.

6 million/1 million--what a cruel sick joke of a question.

I won't give you a negative rating here for what you believe Stiffler, but if I ever am in the same room with you, I will not associate with you in any way, and I am generally a pretty tolerant person.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: A thread about the atrocities of ultra RIGHT wing Nazi Germany and you manage to put your twisted slant on the whole thing. Lovely...

I find it amazing how liberals have tried to paint Nazis as right wing. Nazis were a socialist monstosity. What part of that don't you understand? The fact is that Hitler hated the Communist because they wanted the same territory both idealogical and geographical. It's analogous to the hatred liberals have for Bush. They want the same liberal territory Bush occupies.
It just so happens that I was just reading about this. Author Isabel Patterson. "Patterson attacked facism, Nazism, and communism as varieties of the same evil, collectivism." If you want to read more the Cato institute has information on Isabel Patterson, Rose Wilder Lane & Ayn Rand. Three of the great thinkers in the early to middle of the twentieth century. But I suspect enlightenment is not your goal.

Larry, please let me add that Nazism, Communism, and Fascism are all totalitarian in application. They all claim to represent the masses, but it always boils down to a dictator. That being said, the Chinese appear to have a balance of power between the proletariat and the Chairman, but they are unique and just as repressive.

Anybody who simply attempts to deny its existance, or minimize the horror is a closet or outright racist. To believe the tripe is a bit naive.Some research will show anyone who is fair minded that the holocaust took place, the Stalin purge took place, the Ruwandan genocide took place. These are all documented history.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Patrick: The NAZI party was not a "socialist" party in the conventional manner that we would associate with left-wing/right-wing politics.

First of all this is another attempt to associate anyone(on the right) with atocities. The fact is throuout history all the worst atrocities have been commited by some sort of socialist government or a dictator. A dictator is not "right wing" either.
Nazim was some variation from standard socialism-yes. It was more of a dictatorship which all socialist governments eventually degenerate into, regardless of how benign they start. They allowed some companies, Krupp, Messerschmitt(spelling), and other well connected companies to remain in business under the control of the Nazis. They didn't actually confisicate the assets but they had full use of them. The result is the same.

quote Originally posted by UDLOSE: STIFFLER let it go. Too many bleeding hearts on here. Plus if your beliefs differ from everyone else youre labeled a racist and a hate monger. I love how people make up numbers, or claim to "know" so many "facts" "The Final Solution" was created not only to be efficient but to minimize the trauma for German officers. Separating the men from the women, and then the children from the women, then to machine gun them all down in mass graves including the babies. That led to most German officers and troops to commit suicide. Yeah, they weren't human at all. Demonizing Germans who were just doing their job is pretty pathetic. Unlike all those "American" soldiers who fled to Canada to avoid Nam and the Iraq war. What jokes they are. sondercommando. Anyone familiar with this? I like how people forget about those "victims". The point is Stiffler if you go against what "civilized society" says is right and wrong. You will be a racist, etc. meine Loyalität ist meine Ehre

Sondercommando... the prisoners that were forced to assist in the killings by digging the graves, burning the bodies etc.. usually killed off themselves on a 2-3 month cycle. What's your point?

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/about/transcripts_5.html can read some of their comments here from survivors.

"My loyalty is my honor", are you a brownshirt? At least try using the actual German, not a babelfish translation... geez. Here I'll give you the correct SS Motto, Meine ehre heisst treue. Dumb is as dumb does.

[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 03-03-2006).]

THIS...is the reason Liberals piss me off. They continue to say, "It could NEVER happen again." We are SOooooooo much more civilized today than we were in 1939.

WRONG!

We STILL need a strong military, we STILL need to be vigilant against the hate mongerers because they are STILL out there.

I just didn't think we had 'em on PFF.