Yep, the death of Formula One is here in USA. After Ten years of building up attendence here with the largest crowd ever for a USGP there were only six cars that started the race (YAWN). I bet there are a loooot of people upset at paying $75.00 for a cheap seat on up. thanks Norm

Even though it was Michelin that messed up, the FIA had every change to come up with a solution. 9 out of the 10 teams agreed upon an extra chicane in the last turn (except Ferrari of course), but the FIA said "no". They could have allowed Michelin to fly in new tires and let the Michelin teams compete for position 7-20 only - but the FIA said "no". There were so many solutions for this - still the FIA wanted to play it strictly by the rules because they didn't want to upset Ferrari.

The fact people flew/drove in from all over the world to see this race and paid up to $250 for a ticket didn't seem to matter anything to them.

And I truly dislike Ferrari's point of view in this. Of course this "isn't their problem" but they could have thought about the millions of fans all over the world watching this race and agree with one of the solutions offered and let the others compete with some kind of penalty. But they were just too concerned about the fact their cars haven't been on top of the grid so far, and just went for the guaranteed points. I also dislike Jordan, who had agreed with the other 8 teams not to compete if no solution was found. They competed because they wanted that podium place. Minardi competed because otherwise their season was over if Jordan got the points and they didn't get any points.

Also, I think Monteiro made an absolute fool of himself. Sure, this is probably his only podium place in his career. Sure, he is the first Portuguese to ever reach the podium. But if you are a true sportsman, you can't be happy with the way you achieved this. If it were me, I wouldn't want to be on the podium that way - even if it was the only chance ever to get there.

Just gives the impression of FIAs total arrongance, they forget that they are entertainers and get paid ( a lot) to put on a show for the customer.

well its quite obvious to me the dont care about the fans boy id be mad if i went to that race.

I've been following this and reading as much as I could all afternoon.

No where was it said that the FIA said NO that Michelin could supply a new tire. The only thing the FIA said No to was adding a chicane to turn 13.

In a letter to Michelin from the FIA it is stated,

"Your teams have a choice of running more slowly in Turn 12/13, running a tyre not used in qualifying (which would attract a penalty) or repeatedly changing a tyre (subject to valid safety reasons),"

The first and 3rd suggestion is kind of pointless in running a race under those parimeters.

The 2nd was the most viable, and has been the rule all season. Sure the Michelin teams most likely would have taken a time penality ( it was said that the penality would not be exclusion from the race ), but all would have not been lost. Even with a penality, the top teams like Mclaren, Renault, Williams and possibly others would have almost certainly placed higher than the Jordan and Minardi cars, thus allowing them to score points that race. Heck, those teams may have even been able to outpace Ferrari enough to place higher than them.

In the end it was the fault of Michelin and the boycotting teams that denied race fans world wide a proper race. People can point fingers at the FIA all they want, but when it comes down to splitting hairs, it was Michelins and the teams decision.

Personally, I would have made a special exception to the rule for this one race allowing the Michelin runners a new tire, and allow the Bridgestone runners to slap a fresh set on also, but rules are rules I guess, and obviously tire suppliers and teams would rather not race than play by the rules if it doesn't suit them.

And Paul Stoddard just made more of a fool of himself by blaming Jordan for him running his cars. Stoddard has always been a troll sucking up to the big teams.

What's really funny about this fiasco is that nearly all seven Michelin equiped teams, even front runners Benetton and McLaren, agreed that they would run the race even if their cars weren't even classified as racing as long as the FIA agreed to set up a new chicane.

I do understand the FIA's point on this somewhat. For one, adding a new chicane to a portion of the track like a high speed banked corner where the cars run wide open is basically changing the entire track. A portion of the setup on the car takes into the fact that the cars run on the banking. Placing a chicane in this area could potentially become even more dangerous just as Barrichello pointed out. Two, I imagine it's a little costly to just add a portion of the track out of the blue. But on the flipside you can't have a race where 3/4ths of the field is severly hampered just because of a problem that ACTUALLY ISN'T THEIR FAULT. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FORGETTING THAT THE TEAMS CAN'T HELP THE FACT THAT THEIR CARS ARE UNSAFE DUE TO A PROBLEM THAT ISN'T THEIR FAULT! I don't see why the fans are putting the blame on the drivers or the teams. I know they all are very upset, but if you're going to blame someone, blame two groups - the FIA (mainly) and Michelin.

You've gotta love the FIA for putting all the blame on the Michelin teams. They're SOOOO spineless. Oh yeah. After about a dozen laps when we start seeing cars flying into the turn 13 barrier and debris kills a spectator or a driver gets injuried or worse, then the FIA would be in more of a problem then the embarrassment they 'claim' to be facing because they wanted the teams to race despite the fact that they knew the problems the Michelin teams were facing. I mean you can't really watch a race when fourteen cars are having to go slow through the fastest corner on the track. It's like driving a Honda Civic on the slow lane and watching hopelessly as a Lamborghini flies by you. "Okay I'm moving over now. Please pass me 'cause I can't go as fast as you." I'm sorry but I were attending a race where 75% of the field was pitting every five to ten laps to change tires I would be as upset as seeing a small field run. Just think if this were NASCAR at somewhere like Daytona. Okay every fifteen laps half the field is going to pit while the rest stay out and only a few contend for the win at the end, and the eventual winner is Dave Marcus. It'd be the same as just watching the contending cars just race as seeing the whole field race and only a few able to contend for the win. They'd get booed.

And I agree with Cliff on this one. Ferrari is now as spineless as the FIA. Jordan and Minardi should have just pulled out too. That way Ferrari just could have made complete fools of themselves. What a hollow victory.

And what have we ultimately learned from todays lesson? How to get both Minardi's to finish in the top six - only have six cars start the race.

Should have called up to Lakeville and got some Hoosiers down there.

I still blame Michelin. They tied the teams' hands behind their backs so there was nothing they could do. Sheesh, their tires were inferior, plain & simple. And I agree with the statement someone else posted: rules are rules.

This is the first year I've tried to follow the entire F1 season so far. And this was one of the worst things I could imagine happening. I only watched the opening laps of the "race" before I had to go, but I'm looking forward to hearing more about what the long term fallout of this is going to be.

Now, it was my understanding that Michelin did fly a complete new allotment of tires out to Indy, but that the FIA disallowed them to be used based on them not being used for practice & qualifying (something easily solved by allowing the bridgestone teams to put on new tread as well).

Then I understood that the track owner (Tony George?) agreed to installing a chicane in Turn 13, but that FIA disallowed that as well (this also seems like an obvious solution). I don't feel that it would've been a problem, nor would it have made the track more dangerous (on the contrary it would've been safer due entirely to lower speeds - these are F1 cars, they can handle a little variety).

As for the teams & drivers - I can't blame them for not competing... although there is an inherant danger in auto racing - every precaution has been taken to minimize that. By expecting someone to willfully take to the track in a flawed car is insane (hey, your helmet is craked - awe, nevermind - go for it!). Safety above everything. The teams & drivers did the right thing - no matter how difficult.

As to Ferrari, Minardi, & Jordan... as far as I'm concerned they ran a 73 lap demonstration - that wasn't a race by anyone's measure. If it really alters the points standing in the end - I'll be quite disappointed. At least there are 19 races this year, so it shouldn't have quite as much of an impact on the overall points at the end. Really though, I wish the other 3 teams would've supported the cause and pulled into the pits as well - if for no other reason than to prove how important the safety of the situation really is.

I feel the worst for the spectators who gave their time & money to support a sport that doesn't much show it's head in the US. I'd be flying over to FIA to meet whoever it was necessary to get my money totally refunded!

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Looking for Fiero posters?

Sill reading and I've yet to see where the FIA disallowed the Michelin teams to run another tire. If they did they would have been penalised, see my first reply on my views of that.

Here's an interesting bit I did find from a highely credible source.

"The FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that ‘tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances’.

“Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable.

“Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis."

Adding a chicane really wouldn't ensure that the Michelin tires wouldn't fail, it's possible that they would still fail at some point through the race. After all, the problem was with the tires, without changing the tires, the tire issue would not have been solved.

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: Sill reading and I've yet to see where the FIA disallowed the Michelin teams to run another tire. If they did they would have been penalised, see my first reply on my views of that.

It was something that I heard at the beginning of Speed's broadcast... I may have to go back and listen again to see if I just mis-heard it...

Additionally, I've read somewhere that Michelin supplied another set of tires - but after some testing declared that they may suffer from the same flaws....

quote Here's an interesting bit I did find from a highely credible source. "The FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that ‘tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances’. “Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. “Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis."

Those statements (and the memo dated June 1st) can be found on FIA's website: http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-01.html

Also just released was a statement that all the Michelin teams have been summoned to a hearing June 29th in Paris (home of the FIA council)

quote Adding a chicane really wouldn't ensure that the Michelin tires wouldn't fail, it's possible that they would still fail at some point through the race. After all, the problem was with the tires, without changing the tires, the tire issue would not have been solved.

True, but from that standpoint - FIA's offered solution of slowing the Michelin cars to reduce wear would not be a guaranteed fix either.

A

I just got back from Indy. We go to the USGP every year and this was dissapointing after driving 7 hours each way and spending $105 for a ticket but that's nothing compared to fans who came from other continents and spent upwards of $4,000 to come to the race.
After seeing Ralf hit the wall like that because of tire failure, I can't really blame the 7 Michelin teams for pulling out after Michelin advised them that the tires were unsafe.
I certainly wouldn't blame Ferrarri or the other teams or their drivers for going on with the race on their Bridgestones. I agree 100% with Schumacher that it's "not their problem" that the other teams showed up with inferior tires, and putting chicanes in the track at the last minute to help out the Michelin shod teams is impractical and just wrong.
So who do I blame for this fiasco? Michelin. The same course has been run every year since 2000 with no changes, and Indy Motor Speedway is an open track so there are 100's of days per year that Michelin could have come over to test and develop tires. To show up with a tire that can't handle the course is just inexcuseable. I think the points for the "race" should stand as they are.
We left after about 3 laps and went to a friend's house to drink beer and roast brats on the grill.

Well if F1 is that bad, we can always watch NASCAR, right?
S.Williams

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1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

We were there and stuck around for the whole thing. Hey - it sure did help the traffic situation at the end of the race, if nothing else!

This was FAR from the highest attended USGP. I would guess they had HALF the people they had the first year it was run at Indy.

Michelin is definitely the root cause of this, since they provided equipment that was deemed incapable of meeting the requirements for the race. It's not like this was a new course, or that they added turn 13 (IRL and NASCAR turn 1) to the track this year. They just plain screwed the pooch on that one, plain and simple.

However, I blame the 7 teams that boycotted. As was stated previously, there were MANY solutions proposed during this dispute. But they got it in their heads that it HAD to be a chicane or they weren't going to come out and play. And I agree with a number of people who have stated, that adding s new course element hours before a race, completely untested and without practice, isn't a good solution.

Further, it was the 7 teams that purposely made this race a farce by participating in gridding and the 12/13's formation lap. Had they said, "We don't feel the tires are safe, no one will work with us to our satisfaction, and we're staying in the garage" that would be one thing. But to nod and wink and secretly plan to do what they did was an injustice to all of motorsports, IMHO. Oh, but they met their promoters' requirements! Oooooh.

I've seen a lot of people point to Ferrari as the anti-Christ of this episode. I am no Ferrari fan myself (for those that are curious, I am a long suffering Coulthard fan). But I believe the FIA said that they would refuse to sanction this race if a chicane was added. That would invalidate all championship points, and make the race a big exhibition. Why would Ferrari agree to that, when they brought the proper equipment to race? "Geez, we're really sorry all of our competitors can't race today, let's just scratch this and go out and have some fun." Get serious. Racing got to be too big a business for that a LONG time ago.

My wife was at the MLB All Star game that ended in the 11-11 tie. Now I have something comparable.

Hartz

I just wanted to add that I had a great time this weekend in spite of the race fiasco on Sunday. I drove up on Thursday and stayed with a friend I've known since we were flight students in Meridian back in '86. We spent most of the day Friday and Saturday hanging around the track and watching the practice sessions from different places around the circuit and visting the various displays and watching the Formula BMW, Menards Infinity Pro series and Porsche Supercup...and drinking lots of Fosters. After the track we hung out with old aquaintances, met new ones, went to a couple of fun parties and visited some of the local pubs. The weather was absolutely perfect with highs in the mid 70's, lows in the high 50's, low humidity, no bugs, a nice break from June in Memphis.
So even though the race sucked, it was just a couple of hours wasted out of a great three day event, even though it was the main focus of the weekend. I hope some of the other fans can manage to feel the same way.
We put in for next year's seats this morning in hopes that enough people won't renew that we can upgrade to better seats. I just hope next year isn't the last USGP in Indy.

The Porsche Supercup races are usually the most entertaining of the entire weekend. DANG those boys can bang some fenders. LOL

We'll renew, as well. However, I suspect 2006 will be the last year. The contract only runs for one more year, this year won't help anything, attendance will be WAY down next year, and Bernie wants to move everything to Las Vegas. Sure, he says it would be an addition - to a 17 race series that currently has 19 races? Hmmmm.... Somehow, I doubt it.

Teams/Athletes/Etc refusing to race or whatever... It's not unique. From this weekend and today...

Jockey's refuse to run.
Full Card Canceled.

I doubt the jockeys were paying much attention to F1.

A few years ago Picabo Street lead the women skiers and refused to run when the hill was in poor shape.

I don't blame the teams when they refuse to race under unsafe conditions. No sane driver wants to be the next Dale Ernhart, dead due to track design and equipment failure as much as the basic accident. (Notice how many NASCAR tracks now have the SAFER system installed.) FIA could have found multiple ways to deal with a major problem like this. Instead they stuck their heads up their ass and said screw the drivers/teams and screw the fans. As a result FIA now has the same problem with many fans as the NHL.

Anyone remember the AJ Foyt Indy wreck from years ago??? The one that damn near killed him, injured and (As I remember) killed people in the stands.

Safety has been a long time comming to most classes of racing. Many drivers and owners are fed up with league management. Yeah drivers have dragged on some things... Like using HANS in NASCAR... but even the most stuborn ones want a good race in a car that is going to compete.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by Hartz: The Porsche Supercup races are usually the most entertaining of the entire weekend. DANG those boys can bang some fenders. LOL

The first couple of years they had the Ferrari Challenge series, which was basically a bunch of doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc racing their priviate Ferrari 360 Modenas around the F1 track. There's something oddly fascinating about watching shiny Ferraris bang into each other, especially in the rain.

quote We'll renew, as well. However, I suspect 2006 will be the last year. The contract only runs for one more year, this year won't help anything, attendance will be WAY down next year, and Bernie wants to move everything to Las Vegas. Sure, he says it would be an addition - to a 17 race series that currently has 19 races? Hmmmm.... Somehow, I doubt it.

I've heard talk of adding a Mexico race in the future too. That's a considerably further drive than Indy.

quote Originally posted by theogre: I don't blame the teams when they refuse to race under unsafe conditions. No sane driver wants to be the next Dale Ernhart, dead due to track design and equipment failure as much as the basic accident. (Notice how many NASCAR tracks now have the SAFER system installed.) FIA could have found multiple ways to deal with a major problem like this. Instead they stuck their heads up their ass and said screw the drivers/teams and screw the fans. As a result FIA now has the same problem with many fans as the NHL.

The FIA DID find multiple ways to deal with this. There were MANY proposals made regarding how to resolve this. Speed traps, pitting every 10 laps, changing tires, running on the apron, etc. etc. It was the teams who said put in a chicane or we're going home.

Do you really think a sanctioning body who disqualifies cars for being 2mm out of compliance is going to bend the rules because a manufacturer didn't do their homework and brought a bad tire? And if they had, where would it stop? If you put in a chicane, then you need to have another practice session for teams to try it out. And geez, since the track configuration has changed, we might as well requalify, since the results don't reflect the actual race conditions. Not to mention a chicane could well have caused more problems than it solved.

And track design? Track design my ***! It's the same freaking track that's been there the past 5 years! Actually, they did add the Safer barrier since 2000 - but it's not like Michelin didn't know the track configuration or the expected conditions.

Michelin needs to sack up and stop trying to blame everyone but themselves, too. Their response to this has been pathetic.

[This message has been edited by Hartz (edited 06-20-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero84Freak: And I agree with Cliff on this one. Ferrari is now as spineless as the FIA. Jordan and Minardi should have just pulled out too. That way Ferrari just could have made complete fools of themselves. What a hollow victory.

What the heck would that have proved? Minardi and Jordan had no excuse to pull out. They had perfectly good cars and perfectly good tires. Had they pulled out and I was the FIA I'd have told them to look up Champ Car's address before they left the States, because they wouldn't be racing in my series anymore...

quote Originally posted by Hartz: And track design? Track design my ***! It's the same freaking track that's been there the past 5 years! Actually, they did add the Safer barrier since 2000 - but it's not like Michelin didn't know the track configuration or the expected conditions. Michelin needs to sack up and stop trying to blame everyone but themselves, too. Their response to this has been pathetic.

quote Originally posted by WampusCat: The same course has been run every year since 2000 with no changes, and Indy Motor Speedway is an open track so there are 100's of days per year that Michelin could have come over to test and develop tires. To show up with a tire that can't handle the course is just inexcuseable. I think the points for the "race" should stand as they are.

not entirely true. the track was resurfaced over the winter, and many of the IRL teams testing there for indy on firestone tires (hmm, aren't firestone and bridgestone the same company? why, yes! they are!) were experiencing serious degradation problems on their tires as well. eventually the speedway had to grind the surface to make it raceable. this is not just some freak "michelin just built a bad tire" accident. if bridgestone didn't have firestone's tire data from earlier testing, they very well could have had the exact same problem that michelin had.

which, in itself, begs the question: when it comes to a safety issue (and lets face it, this WAS a safety concern, NOT a performance or longevity concern), if one manufacturer learns something that could potentially be dangerous to any competitor at the track, aren't they ethically obligated to inform them, or some sanctioning body who will in turn inform other competitors, or in SOME way disclose the information in the name of driver safety?

i'm certainly not blaming bridgestone, just asking if maybe they should have disclosed something about the problem, seeing as how they more than likely knew about it beforehand?

i still think michelin is entirely to blame. they brought a bad tire. then, instead of coming up with a viable solution (which would include apologizing to the fans, i think) they proceeded to put all their eggs in a solution that was outside the rules of the sport and then had the nuts to blame the FIA for not bending to help them. granted, i think the FIA SHOULD have bent a little in the name of the sport. i wouldn't be surprised in the least if michelin were asked not to return as a tire supplier next year.

the non-points race would have caused a lot of controversy as well. keep in mind the engines have to last 2 races this year. if this race didn't count, and a competitor (MS and kimi were still on their canada engines i believe), that would mean that those engines would also have to last through france, while alonso would be able to change his engine, since it didn't technically compete in a GP yet. in fact, it will still be interesting, as the FIA has been disallowing engine changes on cars that retire deliberately. this means that kimi will still have his canada engine in france (with an extra weekend of practice/qualy on it), while MS gets a fresh one. there would be repercussions no matter what solution they came up with....

True enough about grinding the track, but since most teams decided to test at Silverstone instead of Indy, I don't have any sympathy. Michelin didn't do their homework and got burned. Don't know if I agree about the sharing of information. Under that assumption, GM should have warned Ford about those nasty Explorers that roll over. OK, being a little facetious there, but still...

Interesting point about the engines. It will be fascinating to see how this all plays out.

yeah, but SUV's able to roll over is common sense. the tire problem was something unique to the new surface that even B/F didn't know about until they did some extensive tire testing there. maybe not even disclose information, but at least TELL michelin that something funky was going on with the tires and that they better test at indy to make sure theirs will work.

looks like the FIA is gonna bring the hammer down on the teams though:
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17731/

what i'd like to know is just what the hell the FIA proposes to do to punish them. if they impose a race ban or something, do they honestly think anyone will show up to watch that race? the teams did what they had to do to keep their drivers safe. the fact that the FIA is saying they could have run at reduced speed through that corner is assinine. you can't just tell a racing driver to go slow while a minardi is passing him. the ball is in the FIA's court and it looks like they're going to try to make things worse than they are. certainly there should be some consequences, but at this point anything more than a hefty fine would hurt the sport further...

i can't wait for the GPWC.

I think one of the biggest issues here is that everyone is playing the blame game, when responsibility doesn't lay 100% on anyone.

Michelin does stand to take most of the heat for what happened - they obviously didn't do their homework, and they didn't come up with a "legal" solution (per FIA regulations - no matter how lame). With 7 teams running their tires - it wouldn't have been beyond reason to put one team out for practice after the track was newly resurfaced.

Sure FIA says that they created viable options (reduced speed, drive on the apron, frequent pit stops, etc) - but none of which allowed the teams to remain competetive, nor could they guarantee with 100% certainty that it would solve the problem. How is it that the FIA could even suggest that they guarantee a tire will last 10 laps on the apron... that's never been tested or even considered. Additionally the FIA immediately went on the offensive (apparantly blaming Michelin in addition to the teams & drivers) by giving interviews to local news channels during the race itself.

I don't feel that the teams (and by even less account the drivers) held much responsiblity at all. Sure, they're responsible to bring the cars and have them ready - but they aren't the tire engineers, how are they supposed to know what's going to happen? Also, who's to say that if they brought lower performance back up tires - that they might not be more or less prone to the same flaws? Heck - Michelin stated that they didn't really know exactly what happened to the tires, how would anyone else?

The biggest losers in this fiasco was the fans - especially those who traveled long distances... I just hope some refunds are in order!

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 06-21-2005).]