quote Originally posted by Wichita: Why did God change the rules of the game half way through human civilization?

Who said we were half way through?

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I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... but they've always worked for me.

quote Originally posted by RTNmsds: Amen, bro'. You could see what the test is trying to accomplish very quickly. This so-called "test" intrigued me in that I wanted to see how they were going to twist the Bible around one more time. Pretty weak attempt if that is the best they can come up with.

I agree...they did twist the Bible to get THEIR point across. Don't you think it is possible that the Christians are doing the same? If they are not doing the same, if Christians all see the Bible consistently, why so many versions? Why so many sects of the Christian religion?

Everyone has their own mind and can take the interpretation however they feel. Bottom line is that it does not belong in school!!

Ken is wrong, the rules WERE changed in the middle of the game and the Jews knew they were going to change as the prophets had foretold with the coming of the Messiah. This wasn't something that God just suddenly said "OOOPPS, new rules, new game.....". No, almost from the beginning of original sin, it was told to man that one was coming that would wash away his sins and when Christ came, that prophesy was fulfilled.

Yes, it was a change, but an orderly change and one that was expected to happen, just that nobody knew when it was going to happen.

If you're asking this as a legitimate question on why the rules were changed, Wichita, that's fine and I'm happy to discuss it. If you're asking it to make me defend my faith to you, well, I don't have to defend my beliefs and faith to anyone. Religious beliefs are matters of FAITH. If you don't agree, fine, I'm not going to hold you underwater till the bubbles stop or you repent your wicked ways because God didn't tell me to do that. He told me to tell others about Christ's salvation, Believe, and be Baptized. I've done those three things, I need not explain anything else to you or anyone else in defense of my faith.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Why did God change the rules of the game half way through human civilization?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: So, what moral teachings DO belong in school? It is acceptable to teach sex education in public schools because it has been "proven" that the kids aren't getting that education at home, so we do it. I submit that in many cases, kids aren't getting moral education at home either, so shouldn't that be taught as well? And if so, which set of morals should be taught? John Stricker

John-

The teaching of morals is fine. I fully understand that concept. Its the teaching of religious practice or religious preference, even religious condemnation that I have a problem with. Being kind to one another is a moral that can be taught without religious reference. Respecting one's body can be taught without religious reference. There are people of all religions and those with no organized religious affiliation that have the same morals and teach those morals to their children.

You also state that "Religious beliefs are matters of FAITH." I couldn't agree with you more. My problem is the desire to have faith in public school when there are so many variations.

Also, I don't feel that simply believing, being baptized, confessing of your sins will get you a pass to Heaven. I was raised in the Catholic Church and just simply do not believe in many of the practices there. For example, the Priests that have been charged with molestation...as long as they confess their sin and perform their Hail Mary's, does this truly mean they are forgiven and are free to do it again next week as long as they confess again?

Also, I'm sure there are other instances, but, you get my point?

On a side note, I'd like to thank you for your well thought and non-personal post.

quote Originally posted by Rainman: I know what my bible says and I believe it. There have been many interpretations and revisions/language updates of the bible over the centuries. They pick and choose interpreations/passages that fit their agenda and even misenterpret/misrepresent those passages. I don't debate religion or defend my choice to practice what I choose.

And thus were born all of the dozens, if not hundreds, of Christian sects in the world today. Some are powerful, like the Southern Baptists and the Catholics, some aren't, like the Branch Davidians. All it takes is a charismatic leader to pick and choose their own interpretation of the Bible's passages and meaning and get a few like-minded followers and a new sect is born.

Even the various translators of the bible over the centuries have added their own interpretations and spin to deal with cultural and language concept differences, so it can be said that the translators themselves have spawned their own sects of Christianity. Has anyone here actually read the bible in the various original languages it was written in?

JazzMan

This is a problem that many people just don't get. It's not enough to confess your sins with your mouth, you have to be REPENTANT and change the evil that you do. IOW, go sin no more. In your example, no, they are not forgiven and NO, they are NOT free to go do it again.

I really don't understand why people only take a part of the equation in what's required to be repentant and leave it at that.

The next logical question will be if all I need to do is believe and be baptized to be saved, why not rape, pillage and burn??? In fact, that was the mindset of certain people, the crusades come to mind, but with what *I* believe it simply doesn't wash. You can't say that you believe and continue to live what you know is an unGodly life, IMHO. The bible even tells us that they will know us by what we do, and child molestation is not one of those things that Christians are recognized for.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by FieroOilAnalyst: John- Also, I don't feel that simply believing, being baptized, confessing of your sins will get you a pass to Heaven. I was raised in the Catholic Church and just simply do not believe in many of the practices there. For example, the Priests that have been charged with molestation...as long as they confess their sin and perform their Hail Mary's, does this truly mean they are forgiven and are free to do it again next week as long as they confess again? Also, I'm sure there are other instances, but, you get my point? On a side note, I'd like to thank you for your well thought and non-personal post.

quote Originally posted by FieroOilAnalyst: I agree...they did twist the Bible to get THEIR point across. Don't you think it is possible that the Christians are doing the same? If they are not doing the same, if Christians all see the Bible consistently, why so many versions? Why so many sects of the Christian religion?

Definately so. There are certainly groups that twist these words that claim to be "Christian", but imho would better be described as cults. Jim Jones & David Koresh are obvious examples, but there are others that are seen as leaders in some of the major denominations that are on the edge of being abominations themselves. To me this is just as (if not more so) evil and destructive.

quote Originally posted by RTNmsds: Definately so. There are certainly groups that twist these words that claim to be "Christian", but imho would better be described as cults. Jim Jones & David Koresh are obvious examples, but there are others that are seen as leaders in some of the major denominations that are on the edge of being abominations themselves. To me this is just as (if not more so) evil and destructive.

"Cult" is just another way of saying minority. At one time or another all of the major branches of the Christian sect tree were minorities, and therefor cults in the context of the day. Most were persecuted, many were eliminated through killing.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by FieroOilAnalyst: I agree...they did twist the Bible to get THEIR point across. Don't you think it is possible that the Christians are doing the same? If they are not doing the same, if Christians all see the Bible consistently, why so many versions? Why so many sects of the Christian religion?

almost all of the protestant orgainised religions accept the foundations of each others theology, and extend the hand of fellowship to each other. They have minor differences in the things they accept and practice, but the core principles are the same

the exceptions are the catholics (who still have a degree of needing to earn your good favor with God) and groups that are commonly flagged as cults (the JWs, the mormons)

ive never heard of episcapalians taking up arms agains the penecostals or the lutherans declaring open war on the amish.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: "Cult" is just another way of saying minority..... JazzMan

By the dictionary defintion, most every religion or sect can be referred to as a cult, but that's not really what it means based on today's occurences. Cult leaders are known to use manipulative methods to control the minds of their followers (i.e. brainwashing), prevention of freedom of thought, and inability to discuss other points of views. True religious leaders are open to discussion.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: ...the exceptions are the catholics (who still have a degree of needing to earn your good favor with God) and groups that are commonly flagged as cults (the JWs, the mormons)

Salvation thru grace impies nothing I do individually earns this gift, but rather what I do is a result of this gift.

[This message has been edited by RTNmsds (edited 06-12-2005).]

quote Originally posted by RTNmsds: By the dictionary defintion, most every religion or sect can be referred to as a cult, but that's not really what it means based on today's occurences. Cult leaders are known to use manipulative methods to control the minds of their followers (i.e. brainwashing), prevention of freedom of thought, and inability to discuss other points of views. True religious leaders are open to discussion.

Of course, you've described all modern religions without even realizing it. Intolerance, closed mindedness, prevention of independant thinking, these are all hallmarks of every major and minor religion to date. Though individuals can claim exceptions here and there at the local level, one only has to look at the bigger picture to see what is really the case.

JazzMan

So the only people capable of "independent thinking" are atheists and agnostics?

Now who's being close minded and overly generalizing?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Of course, you've described all modern religions without even realizing it. Intolerance, closed mindedness, prevention of independant thinking, these are all hallmarks of every major and minor religion to date. Though individuals can claim exceptions here and there at the local level, one only has to look at the bigger picture to see what is really the case. JazzMan

quote Originally posted by jstricker: This is a problem that many people just don't get. It's not enough to confess your sins with your mouth, you have to be REPENTANT and change the evil that you do. IOW, go sin no more. In your example, no, they are not forgiven and NO, they are NOT free to go do it again. I

This is how I see it.. In my day to day life, I'm a nice guy.. I help people when I can.. I don't believe in god. Yeah, I'm blunt on pff, so what.. THen there is person x.. This person isn't a very christlike figure to begin with... Suddenly, they believe in god for whatever reason, and start acting nice and holier than thou, because they've read, and believe, that they have to do so and so to get into heaven.. They do whatever is written, walk the walk, you know what I mean.. They 'believe' in god for whatever reason, and repent their sins.. I don't believe in god, so am being myself for a totally different reason.. You honestly think I'm going to hell and he's going to heaven? I don't believe in a god, but if thats the way.... If I WERE to believe in a god, he'd be my version of a god, that makes a lot more sense, and not the one that some people fear.. He wouldn't 'smite' me for not believing in him. Hey, they can pick and choose what to believe from the bible, can't I?

[This message has been edited by JohnnyK (edited 06-13-2005).]

Sure, you can do whatever you want Johnny. It's that whole "free will" thing. If you want to worship a pat of butter that happens to be in the shape of Socrates' Belly Button, you can do that, it's OK with me. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is. God is omnipotent and omnipresent. God (as was pointed out) is a Jealous God. God loves his follwers as a father loves his children and, sometimes his children disappoint him greatly.

As I said before, I'm not going to, and don't HAVE to defend my spiritual beliefs to you or anyone else. I will TELL you what I believe, if you ask. If you are doing something that my faith instructs me is wrong, I'm obligated to tell you that, but I'm not going to beat you up about it or take you to the stock tank and hold you under till the bubbles stop to see if you float or sink to determine if you have demons.

The fact is that in MY faith, no matter what you've done, if you believe, are baptized, and truly repentant of your sins, you will be saved. I'm sorry if a forgiving God causes you angst, but there's always the Socrates Belly Button in Butter sect waiting for you that might suit you better.

John Stricker

PS: BTW, you might be a "good guy" in all aspects of your life but yes, if you do not believe in God, that Christ is your savior, repent your sins, and are baptized with the Holy Spirit, when judgement day comes, my faith tells me that you will not be saved. Sorry, wish you were coming along, I'll miss your wit.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: This is how I see it.. In my day to day life, I'm a nice guy.. I help people when I can.. I don't believe in god. Yeah, I'm blunt on pff, so what.. THen there is person x.. This person isn't a very christlike figure to begin with... Suddenly, they believe in god for whatever reason, and start acting nice and holier than thou, because they've read, and believe, that they have to do so and so to get into heaven.. They do whatever is written, walk the walk, you know what I mean.. They 'believe' in god for whatever reason, and repent their sins.. I don't believe in god, so am being myself for a totally different reason.. You honestly think I'm going to hell and he's going to heaven? I don't believe in a god, but if thats the way.... If I WERE to believe in a god, he'd be my version of a god, that makes a lot more sense, and not the one that some people fear.. He wouldn't 'smite' me for not believing in him. Hey, they can pick and choose what to believe from the bible, can't I?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Sure, you can do whatever you want Johnny. It's that whole "free will" thing. If you want to worship a pat John Stricker PS: BTW, you might be a "good guy" in all aspects of your life but yes, if you do not believe in God, that Christ is your savior, repent your sins, and are baptized with the Holy Spirit, when judgement day comes, my faith tells me that you will not be saved. Sorry, wish you were coming along, I'll miss your wit.

No disrespect, but hard core Christians have no idea how ridiculous that statement sounds to people who know that Jesus was a person in history, not a god. Plus dipping your head in a bowl of water or having it poured on you with a pitcher, even sounds stranger. Plus that water has to be deemed Holy by a guy in a Medevil-like robe.

The zombie-like state of belief with Christians undergoing a ritual of what you stated is a bit spooky. Reminds me of the stories of Druids.

I know you fully believe in all of your faith that you are right and everybody else in the world who do not think Jesus is the son of God is fully wrong, only to be burned in Hell on judgement day. Since SO MANY people are wrong, you can say the vast majority, do you ever wonder that you may be too?

We are all infalible, but striving to do the right thing and to be a good person and love our neighbor is about the best we can do. We are too much of an Animal to really understand the concept of God. People in this world are just making it all up in their own imaginations.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: This is how I see it.. I don't believe in god.

if you dont believe in God then obviously you dont care anything about what that God expects from you - and you have no relationship with Him now

so why would you expect to spent eternity with Him (have a relationship with Him) after you die? If you have no 'use' for God, what does He have to do with you?

[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 06-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: wow! you have absolutely no concept of what baptism is, or what it signifies!

I must not, because it isn't important in my life!

Wichita,

Everything you have just described is also a religion. It's the religion of the agnostic, at best, atheist more probably. You have to have just as much faith as I do that I am so terribly wrong in my beliefs to say what you just did.

I don't have a problem with you believing as you do. The Bible tells me to spread the word, which I have done. You now have the choice to accept, reject, or look into it more fully and then make up your mind. Your choice. Another example of God allowing you to have free will.

You truly have no concept of what Baptism of the Holy Spirit is if you think that all it is amounts to annointing the head with water. That is a ceremonial baptism, but not baptism of the holy spirit.

BTW, the concept of Hell is interesting to me. Jesus never says non-believers will "burn in Hell", that I can recall. What he DOES say is that non-believers will not be allowed to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Is that the same thing? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

I'm not exactly sure what it is with many of you that don't believe that makes you so insecure in whatever beliefs YOU have that you have to insult Christians. Saying we're in a "zombie like state" and that because YOU can't understand the concept of "God" that none of us can is, quite frankly, insulting. I'm not insulting you for your beliefs, such as they are, why do you and others constantly feel the need to ridicule and insult mine?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wichita: No disrespect, but hard core Christians have no idea how ridiculous that statement sounds to people who know that Jesus was a person in history, not a god. Plus dipping your head in a bowl of water or having it poured on you with a pitcher, even sounds stranger. Plus that water has to be deemed Holy by a guy in a Medevil-like robe. The zombie-like state of belief with Christians undergoing a ritual of what you stated is a bit spooky. Reminds me of the stories of Druids. I know you fully believe in all of your faith that you are right and everybody else in the world who do not think Jesus is the son of God is fully wrong, only to be burned in Hell on judgement day. Since SO MANY people are wrong, you can say the vast majority, do you ever wonder that you may be too? We are all infalible, but striving to do the right thing and to be a good person and love our neighbor is about the best we can do. We are too much of an Animal to really understand the concept of God. People in this world are just making it all up in their own imaginations.

This is a very intriguing conversation. I am in now way niave but the test even mentioned the bible as 'not correct to science' which I find someone difficult. A. They were observations made by people, B. Didn't scientists believe the earth was flat and the center of the universe at one point in time?

No no.. You guys have stated before the bible is written by man, some parts are wrong, etc, etc.. I'm sorry, but I just can't accept thats how an all powerful god is.. Jealous and frightened that people aren't going to believe in him.. Everybody seems to pick and choose what part of the religion they want to accept.. You guys have probably done something that you should be stoned for.. I am (wouldl be) also picking what parts seem to fit the description of a god. Technically you guys don't even worship the christian god.. Well I mean you do, but not certain parts of the bible, and in your eyes that would be worshipping the same belly button god (or whatever you said) as me.. All together now.. "We're on the highway to ............"

Well then... don't accept it...

Lord's Prayer begins with "Our Father..."

Doesn't that make us all the Son of God?

If your spirit goes to Heaven or Hell upon death, why is Jesus Christ coming back to raise the dead?

What happens to one's spirit while waiting for that time?

quote Originally posted by FieroOilAnalyst: What happens to one's spirit while waiting for that time?

"Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."

quote Originally posted by RTNmsds: "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."

quote Originally posted by FieroOilAnalyst: If your spirit goes to Heaven or Hell upon death, why is Jesus Christ coming back to raise the dead?

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: if you dont believe in God then obviously you dont care anything about what that God expects from you - and you have no relationship with Him now so why would you expect to spent eternity with Him (have a relationship with Him) after you die? If you have no 'use' for God, what does He have to do with you?

That is my problem with the belief Ken! I don't see god as a "him", some guy with balls and a penis like us. I don't think God has a human element in it whatsoever. If God created all things, then your dog Bruiser is just important as any human is.

Granted! Humans are smart and possess a lot more intuition than any animal in the kingdom, but a book with a mixed contrude account of a christ and the history of civilization as I presently know it, does not warrent the Christian view of death as superior to anybody elses.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: No no.. You guys have stated before the bible is written by man, some parts are wrong, etc, etc..

Where, exactly, did I ever say that?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I'm sorry, but I just can't accept thats how an all powerful god is.. Jealous and frightened that people aren't going to believe in him..

Where did I ever say that God is frightened? Jealous, yes. Frightened?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK:Everybody seems to pick and choose what part of the religion they want to accept.. You guys have probably done something that you should be stoned for.

Probably, if I was subject to Hebrew law.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK:I am (wouldl be) also picking what parts seem to fit the description of a god. Technically you guys don't even worship the christian god..

Really? Please explain the technicalities.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK:Well I mean you do, but not certain parts of the bible, and in your eyes that would be worshipping the same belly button god (or whatever you said) as me.. All together now.. "We're on the highway to ............"

No, you need to explain what God you think it is I'm worshipping and what I've said in any post that contradicts the teachings of Christ and my faith. After all, my faith is CHRISTian. Stop talking in generalities, Johnny, if you feel I'm being hypocritical, I want specific examples in what I've written.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: So the only people capable of "independent thinking" are atheists and agnostics? Now who's being close minded and overly generalizing? John Stricker

As usual, overgeneralization is your specialty.

Of course not, you said it and not me.

Religions throughout history have demonstrated intolerance for outside views, independent thought etc. Look at all current religions and gay marriage, for instance. How about birth control such as condoms and hormones? Didn't even exist in Jesus's day yet the Catholics are banning them now. How many centuries did it take for the Catholic church to finally accept that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe when they apologized for what they did to Galileo?

The list goes on and on, then and now, nothing changes. Stem cell research that uses blastocysts that will never ever be implanted and have zero chance of becoming a baby? Another classic case of intolerance, closed mindedness, and the attempt to foist religious beliefs on the non-religious public.

If anyone deviates from your razor-thin worldview you go after them with scorn, backhanded insults, and ennuendo, it's your pattern of behavior and your finely tuned wit is used like a scalpel to attack and destroy those who disagree with your taliban-like views.

All I have to say is, who cares?

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: As usual, overgeneralization is your specialty. Of course not, you said it and not me.

I made no statement, I asked a question in response to your post that said "Intolerance, closed mindedness, prevention of independant thinking, these are all hallmarks of every major and minor religion to date." If you didn't mean that religious people weren't "close minded" and "intolerant", what did you mean?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Religions throughout history have demonstrated intolerance for outside views, independent thought etc.

Oh, that clears things up. How could I have gotten what I did from your first post?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan:Look at all current religions and gay marriage, for instance.

Which my faith believes to be wrong and an abomination before God, but because A MINORITY of people in this country don't think that, WE are supposed to sit down, shut up, and look the other way? I think not.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan:How about birth control such as condoms and hormones? Didn't even exist in Jesus's day yet the Catholics are banning them now.

Condoms didn't exist in Jesus' day? Think again.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan:How many centuries did it take for the Catholic church to finally accept that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe when they apologized for what they did to Galileo?

Not as many as it took the rest of civilization to figure out that it wasn't flat, Jazzman.

And about those apologies...........that seems to be the big thing with you liberals right now. We have to apologize for this, apologize for that. What a load of crap. I heard on the radio today that the Senate or House passed a resolution saying they were sorry for not passing a law SPECIFICALLY making lynchings illegal. Apologizing to blacks or something. What a bunch of crap. It was murder. Murder was illegal. So it didn't say "lynching". Big deal. That's all they have to do in Washington that's so important is to pass resolutions saying I'm sorry that we didn't make something illegal enough? Give me a break.

But that is the mindset of many liberals today, wring your hands and apologize for any slight, real or imagined, and that will make you a "good person".

Religions are, by nature, conservative. That means they change slowly and have a healthy dose of "prove it to me" built in. They don't jump on every fad (oh, say like the upcoming ice age all the scientists were absolutely positively sure was coming in the next few decades back in the early '70's) that the "scientists" come up with, particularly if it changes the way their particular church doctrine is established.

Organized religion is one of THE most political things there is. They tend to do what all politicians do first and foremost, protect their power. That's why I don't have a great deal to do with organized religions myself. Although I'm raised, Baptized, and Confirmed Lutheran, I stay out of the synod and national bickering. I can't even tell you who the Lutheran church supported in any political race last election. (Honestly, the Lutheran leadership is so liberal, I would not be surprised if they supported John Kerry, but I don't know).

I treat my faith a lot like I treat my citizenship. I follow the teachings of Christ in the Bible and I follow the Constitution of the United States. The church often does things contrary to the Bible (organized church, that is) and the Federal Government often oversteps it's bounds in respect to what is in the Constitution. Both the organized church and the politicians are human and fallible. They make mistakes and some members are just plain evil. Most, however, are good people.

It's a shame you are such an ideologue that you can't see that.

John Stricker

Edited because I messed up the quote tags

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 06-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: No, you need to explain what God you think it is I'm worshipping and what I've said in any post that contradicts the teachings of Christ and my faith. After all, my faith is CHRISTian. Stop talking in generalities, Johnny, if you feel I'm being hypocritical, I want specific examples in what I've written. John Stricker

So you believe in all parts of the original text? If not, then yes, you are picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe in. WHich there is nothing wrong with, persay, but then how do you explain the parts you don't agree with (I'm not talking about you, specifically).. People say "it's written by man and man is not perfect"

Which "original text" would that be, Johnny?

I'm nearly 50 years old. I've studied the Bible since I was in grade school. I don't know how many times I've read it through and I don't even remember how many versions I've read it in but I do know I've read it through in at least four versions. I do not, however, read in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, so I'd have to say I dn't know if I believe in all parts of the "original text". In my study of the Bible, however, I believe I have come to an understanding of what the writers of the Bible were trying to convey to man and yes, in that context, I do believe in all parts of the Bible as I understand it.

"People" say a lot of things, Johnny, and I can't answer for anyone but myself.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: So you believe in all parts of the original text? If not, then yes, you are picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe in. WHich there is nothing wrong with, persay, but then how do you explain the parts you don't agree with (I'm not talking about you, specifically).. People say "it's written by man and man is not perfect"

If your faith believe gay marriage is an abomination against God, that is fine. Up to you. What I have a problem with is creating a law against it based on that faith. Two gay people getting married DOES NOT hurt anyone else. Show me where you've seen that gay folks have hurt someone due to their sexual orientation.

I don't have a problem with Christians voicing their opinions. I have a problem with them being intolerent of others and creating laws based on their faith. Laws should be made for the good of all people based on fact.

quote Originally posted by FieroOilAnalyst: If your faith believe gay marriage is an abomination against God, that is fine. Up to you. What I have a problem with is creating a law against it based on that faith. Two gay people getting married DOES NOT hurt anyone else. Show me where you've seen that gay folks have hurt someone due to their sexual orientation. I don't have a problem with Christians voicing their opinions. I have a problem with them being intolerent of others and creating laws based on their faith. Laws should be made for the good of all people based on fact.

It sometimes can be fairly depressing how quick people are to attack the bible or the christianity faith and its subsidaries. Just because the christian church isn't running around handing out flowers to gay people doesn't mean we think its an abomination. Its a choice which the catholic church believes the wrong one. Our faith teaches us to accept thim as any other brother. But your arguement suggests that because you can still sit comfortably in your house with no worries that we should allow it?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan:How about birth control such as condoms and hormones? Didn't even exist in Jesus's day yet the Catholics are banning them now.

My faith is not opposed to condoms or hormones. What they are opposed to is any form (which is most) of birth control which purposely destroys / evicts a zygote from being able to have a chance. Years ago, partial birth abortion was a legal process. Or if you want more info on contreceptives you can visit HERE. In the liberal mindset, these didn't hurt anyone but please tell me how all those children came off positive from this?

see, thats the thing about faith - its not that someone comes along and performs a miracle or a clever magic trick, then claims to speak for God, and then whatever they say, thats what you have to do, because you have 'faith' the message was sent by God

faith comes when someone communicates to you "this is a message from God" and somehow you find you agree with the message - something inside you knows it is correct

so its not that we hear this booming voice from the sky that says "do X, Y & Z or I shall surely smote you"

its that what has been communicated to us agrees with our inner nature - and that is the basis on which we have the authority to make morality the foundation of our legal system.

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: It sometimes can be fairly depressing how quick people are to attack the bible or the christianity faith and its subsidaries. Just because the christian church isn't running around handing out flowers to gay people doesn't mean we think its an abomination. Its a choice which the catholic church believes the wrong one. Our faith teaches us to accept thim as any other brother.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Which my faith believes to be wrong and an abomination before God,