In as much as I love a good fight especially when I know that I am in the right, on this one may I suggest trying to find some common ground. Cliff, try to talk to your neighbor and find a resolution of sorts, maybe play the music a little lower when the neighbor is outside and louder when he is inside. Maybe the wives can broker out a peace agreement or get communication going. Perhaps the neighbor was having a bad day and feels bad about the police now.
You have to try to settle this out. Its not easy to do when you're fired up in a cause but try to challenge yourself to try to be the bigger person. I know that is not what you want to hear so keep reading.
You remember that saying, speak softly but carry a big stick, whatever? Ok, document your peace agreement with the neighbor for your records. Go ahead and find out the exact decible readings at "low" and "high" music levels and exact levels acceptable in your community. Have all that documented information tucked away as your back up "CYA" plan just in case the neighbor decides to act up again.
Make peace with the neighbor but if he calls again, you can show the police that you are trying to be "the good neightbor" and if properly prepared, the police may rip on the neighbor for being an idiot.
Cliff, I've read many of your posts over time, you have alot of conviction, I admire that, conviction is a great thing. Although I would side with you on the music volume issue, a small adjustment of the direction of the conviction might help keep the peace.

------------------
jetman
Silver 86 SE 2M6 4-speed, with "check wallet light"

I just bought a house too. The neighborhood is pretty quiet, but the neighbor next door has a high school age son. Said son likes to open the car doors in the driveway and crank his huge stereo until it rattles my house. And you know what? It doesn't bother me. For one thing, when we got hit with the big snow storm in Denver recently, that same son came over and used a snowblower on my driveway. We had just moved in and didn't even have a snowshovel, and was borrowing it from a different neighbor. So he's a nice guy, and his family is cool. But the reason I don't mind the music is because I now know that if I wash my car in the driveway, and then proceed to detail it, I can also crank the radio. At least those neighbors won't complain.

If it was 3am or something, I understand the problem. But during "business hours", and until about 11 pm on weekends, being loud is fine by me.

That being said, I think it is assinine to antagonize a neighbor because he asked you to turn down your music. Think of it like smoking (unless you smoke, then you might not see this example very well.) If your neighbor was smoking a huge, fat cigar on his patio, and you were in your back yard reading a book on a lounge chair or something, and his smoke was permeating your area, it would be pretty bad. He has a right to his property rights, as you pointed out. Should you be allowed to make him put it out? You could ask and hope for the best... Same with the music.

If he told you he was annoyed at your music, chances are it wasn't the first time, and he had probably already gotten worked up about it before he finally broke and came over to tell you to turn it down. I'm NOT saying he should have called the cops. I just think he was already mad, and that's probably why he was less than cordial.

If you really are above antagonizing your neighbor, that's good. Just remember that he is buying his house too, and some people buy homes to get away from close (loud) living.

- Flamberge

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I'm not saying you are not in the right here. I am suggesting that you can be a bigger and better man than that and in the process the outcome might be even better for you. I'm not guaranteeing it. But I haven't seen you even try it.

I have thought about the incident over night.
frontal lobe, in appreciation for your allowing me the benifit of the doubt, let me explain how I have tried. Notice the subject, "same fight, different jurisdiction".
At my place I own in Bandera, where I lived before I recently got married, I had the same problem.
One neighbor wanting their way about my music. I lived there first before they moved in. Not that this should give me anymore property rights. They were politically connected as I would find out. At first, they were sociable about it and I would turn it down. I now believe they misinterpeted this as a sign of weakness. Over a period of three years they became more and more demanding and I, wanting to be a good neighbor, always appeased them.
It got to the point that I went to their house, explained the my volume level went from 1 to 10, and that it was on 4, was that ok with them. They said it was. Cool. A few nights later, they called and said four was still too loud. aarrgghh, ok, I went to volume level 3. This turned out to still not be good enough. When they called I told them tough. They call the sherriff's dept., out comes a deputy, and I am forced to turn it off, yes, off. Or recieve a citation for Disorderly Conduct.
The next morning I go to the sherriff's dept and get a copy of the Disorderly Conduct statute. I am shocked to find out that a noise is presumed to be unreasonable if it exceeds 85 decibles. That is loud. I then go and buy the best decible meter I could find. Upon testing my music level output, I forget now the exact readings, but they were way low. So I crank it up. To 85 decibles.
As expected, I recieve another visit from the sherriff's dept. I explain that I am within the limits of the law and offer for the deputy to read my decible meter. He refuses, issues me a citation for disorderly conduct and tells me if I do not turn it off, I will be arrested.
These charges never seem to make it to court. They are a threat hanging over my head. So I set myself up for another ticket and am not disappointed. Still can not seem to get to court. So I set myself up for another but this time I am arrested. For disorderly conduct and public intoxication. My name gets splashed in the police blotter and I have to pay bail. The public intoxication was dropped, my wife was told "we could not make that one stick", I was in my yard. They were stretching it to presume that because I could be seen from public property, blah blah blah.
I push to get these charges resolved through the court system. The furthest I ever got was a plea bargain offer. I should say offers, see below. The first was six months probation and a two hundred dollar fine for each offense. I consider my rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and my property rights are worth spending money for a lawyer and fighting it.
It is still not makeing it before the judge. They are holding it over my head because if I should win, they could not force me to turn it down. Time goes on and I am again visited by the sherriff's dept. The deputy asked me to come over to his car and I fell for it. I left my yard. Once outside my fence, he used a forcible take down manuvere on me knocking me off my feet, face down into the ground, with his elbow striking me in the back. "Resisting Arrest huh" I was told. Off to jail again, name smeared again and more bail money. The charges this time ? Disorderly Conduct, Resisting Arrest, Public Intoxication, and Criminal Mischief. My wife heard it all as I was on the phone with her at the time.
The Sherriff won't entertain a police brutallity investigation saying My wife's audio wittnessing was not good enough. I go to the FBI and file civil rights charges also explaining I can not seem to get to court. With the feds now involved, getting a court date is remarkably quick.
This time, with no intention of taking a plea bargain, I was offered one anyway. If I would just promise there would be no more trouble they would drop all charges, after a six month probatioary period. These charges had grown in number. Assualt with Bodily Injury on my neighbor for defending myself when he had come on my property and attacked me (I won), and a couple of long ago traffic tickets which were not issued but could be brought up by an officer later
I declined this offer as I can not control what my neighbor thinks is trouble. All charges were dropped anyway. Good thing I did. I would have set court precedent that I was wrong.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: My intention is to hit back fast, hard, and with as much legal force as I can. I own (am buying) my house. I deserve property rights. As defined by the law.

I am more upset at Officer Ovaries than my neighbor. Had he applied the law it would be over. Many times, officers in these small towns (17,000 pop.) do not have the experience to understand every law and some even think they are the law. For this officer not to be even able to tell me what was an acceptable level, basically saying that if it bothered my neighbor it was too loud....well...unacceptable. He even said that if he had to come back repeatedly, he would confiscate the radio and speakers from my truck.
As far as consideration for my neighbors, I really am a nice guy. Because of the Bandera incident and paying $1800.00 for a lawyer and $400.00 in bail, being assaulted by a police officer, for abiding by the law, well, it is a sore subject of mine. Add that the neighbor, came stomping up to my house, saying "What's up with the music" and telling me to turn it down, without even introducing himself, well, I am only so nice.

frontal lobe, I wish to be worthy of your benifit of the doubt.

here in my town, city noise ordinance is in effect from 10PM till 6AM i had some a-hole neighbors when i was a teen and they were real picky (overly picky )about noise, so to get back at them i would get up at 6AM every sat. and mow the lawn they were not happy, but there was nothing they could do about it

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: I think the standard for Db readings is 1 foot from whatever is making the sound... not the neighbors fence.

That would be in public I would think. It would not be the neighbors fence but mine. Fact of the matter is, technically, they can not even enter my property for a misdemeanor (yeah, right). They would have to get a court order, warrant of some kind, to measure at the source.
Thanks for the advice. Measurements at the source should ensure I am compliant. Unless, as in this case, the law says that you are not.
I am sure I will have to go to court. Officers do not like to be disobeyed. They have to be shown if one is right. Usually costs one later though. All the more reason to live within the law.

UPDATE

A little has happened, amounting to nothing.
So........
Wife wants to move. Saw me persecuted at my place in Bandera for the same thing.
Neighbor brought me a peace offering. A very nice rose plant. Before I took it, I offered my hand and my name and said we were never introduced. He took my hand and shook it. I thanked him for the peace offering and said I do not mean to disturb him but I enjoy music. That we could work it out. His reply......"I thought we had it worked out".
Aaarrrggggghhhh !
Owe K.
hehe. I am not here to bore you with details. Critique this for me please my forum friends and family. To be fair, I am also looking for the opinions of the opposing view as they are just as important to me. Flame suit on but unzipped.

Letter of self protection:

Chief Ovary,
In the interest of community harmony, I wish to discuss a matter of concern of mine. My name is Clifford Smith and I reside at 340 Lake Dr., here in the city limits of Kerrville.
I was visited by KPD officer Moreno on April the 22nd of this year at 10:22 AM because he was responding to a complaint that my music was too loud. I expressed to him that I was not of the same opinion.
He stated that a neighbor of mine had complained that it was. He stated that it was bothering this neighbor. I again expressed I did not believe that it was too loud and I did not believe that I was violating any laws.
Officer Moreno’s response frustrated me. I would like written clarification of his response. As I remember it…….
Officer Moreno stated that he did not need to come over with a decibel meter every time he got a complaint. He further stated that if he had to keep coming back, that “he” would confiscate the radio and speakers from my truck.
I, in fear, expressed my belief that the laws of the community were there to protect all members of the community. I then asked how loud it could be. His response was “ If it bothers your neighbor……..”. I turned it off.
How is that right ?
I enjoy music as much as my neighbor may enjoy silence. Surely my lawnmower is as loud as the volume level of music I was listening to that day. Or my air compressor. Or my needle gun. Or the mufflers on any of my vehicles, all of which are stock. The radio in my truck is a factory stock unit with no window rattling sub amplifier system.
I am upset.
I called the duty seargent and was told that the noise limit was 80 decibles. I asked if was not in fact 85 decibles. I was told thet 85 decibles might be right. I then explained to the duty officer the situation and he responded that he was not there and could not provide a resolution. Unhappy with his reply, I continued on about my dissatisfaction. The duty officer stated he did not wish to argue with me.
Chief Ovary, I do not wish to argue with the law. I wish to abide by it. I feel my rights guaranteed under the United States Constitution are being violated. I am realizing that freedom isn’t free. Why should I have to fight this?
When officer Moreno stated that “if it bothered my neighbor…..” , I immediately thought of our constitutional protection of fair and equal protection under the law. I ask why does officer Moreno not have to use a decibel meter to actually see if I am in excess of 85 decibles. Was he not out to investigate a complaint of a violation of the law ? Or was he here to make the law ? This thought makes me feel as if I am being taxed without representation. I was then offended by the threat of my brand new truck’s radio system being ripped out by officer Moreno, without a court order. Again, is he making law ?
Chief Ovary, sir, our constitution guarantees us “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness”. I realize that that this is not at the expense of others. This is why, in my opinion, we have laws. I wish to abide by the laws considered fair. I do not wish to be unfair. I also do not wish to be treated unfairly. I am just asking for guide lines as to what is acceptable, such as a speed limit sign, which is a matter of law. You can not expect me to abide by the law if it is not clear. Vague and unclear laws have been ruled unconstitutional. I should not have to, but I am willing to go to court to protect my rights. I wish they were clear.
What really irks me is that I have fought this fight before. See “Bandera County vs Clifford Smith”. Call Kari Schnieder, the county attorney. She will tell you that I accepted no plea bargain offers. Not even the offer that if their would be no more problems (ie- music too loud for my neighbor) Bandera county would drop all charges. Of course this would have set court precedent that I had done something wrong. I declined the plea bargain as I had not. The charges were dropped anyway. I wonder why ???
I would like written clarification from officer Moreno as to what his expectations are from me. Written.
I would also like your official written opinion in this matter. I wish to be a productive member of this community. My wife and I just bought our home here in Kerrville and we should not have to move because we were abiding by the laws of the community we chose, except that we are not getting the protection of the law enforcement of which we pay taxes to support. She is afraid to live in Bandera county because she has seen the Bandera Sherriff’s department make their own rules.
What are the rules ?

Clifford W. Smith

Forum, this is a draft. It needs work. All suggestions from punctuation to grammar, to being more concise to being a little more forcefull in wording are welcome. I also welcome suggestions on being more dicklomatic, oopps, diplomatic.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: On this weeks episode of "Clifford & The Man"......................

On nexts week's episode of Clifford and the Man, the written response.

Detour
A cut and paste of a PM I recieved due to a different topic:

I have a friend in Huntsville Alabama that will take the government to task, at the drop of a hat. He,s very intelligent, in some ways and wierd in others. ( into astrology) (Told me that because of my April birthday in 46 that i was predestined to go to vietnam. I asked him if they had the war just for me and he couldn't answer that.)
Here is the story.
Alabama once had a law that stated if you'r car was 25 years old you could buy a antique tag that was good as long as you owned the car and didn't need renewal. some time in the 90s they realised they were loosing revenue and discontinued this practice and the new law also invalidated existing tags. Well, he goes over the state constitution and finds a amendment that states that you cannot make a law that invalidates a contract. the tag reciept being the contract.

The time lapses for the tag turn in and he gets a ticket., and takes it to court and looses.
He appeals to the Alabama Supreme court where he wins. OK, He,s done it Right "Wrong." He gets another ticket and shows them the ruling. What does the state say,

"Traffic violations do not set presedent and are decided on an individual basis."

so he takes it again to the Alabama Supreme Court and wins again.
He did this 5 times and would be doing it today if the truck engine hadn't given up the ghost.

I really admire John for this, but at the same time I know that it cost him untold time, money and effort because he stood his ground alone, he could not get enough support for a class action suite,cause they realised it was only 25 dollars at stake.. The truth is most people are sheep who will give away their freedom.This effort consumed several years of his life and you have to ask " was it worth it?"

"I don't know the answer."

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 04-26-2005).]

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Forum, this is a draft. It needs work. All suggestions from punctuation to grammar, to being more concise to being a little more forcefull in wording are welcome. I also welcome suggestions on being more dickmolatic, oopps, dipmolatic.

I'd take out the references to the Constitution. Invoking the Constitution when the law (the 85 dB limit) is on your side makes you seem extremist and a bit of a nut. Also, take out the refernces to where you've had this issue with noise complaints before. An officer is going to see that you had noise problems with two different neighbors and figure that you are the problem.

Basically, state what Officer Moreno said on the initial call, what the desk seargent said, and what the law is. Then state what you want: written clarification on exactly what standard the officers in the field are using for noise complaints and what justification they use if that is not what the law says.

PS. I assume you will use the police chief's real name.
PPS. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness" are from the Declaration of Independance, not the Constitution.

Thanks Steve for the valuable advice.
I am fixin to leave for a week at work. Not before I fire off a letter about this though. That was a cut and paste from "Word", basically organizing how I feel.
You are right, I made some subtle threats. Best left out.
Thanks Steve! Anyone else ?

Just my opinion, I'd drop the reference to your 'needle gun'. Whatever it happens to be (and I doubt the general populous knows what it is; I know I don't), it sounds vaguely either drug related or slightly violent (due to the word 'gun'). There are enough other good examples of equipment there that makes noise (and everybody knows what they are) that I don't think you need to take a chance on a misinterpretation diluting your statement.

------------------
Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com
1988 Red Fiero Formula Convertible

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: I'd take out the references to the Constitution.

Good point Steve though........
You are not allowed to bring this type of info before the jury directly. If this draft was introduced before deliberations, they would have that thought. Not rejecting what you say, still thinking about it.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: For reference. Needle Gun : Device for stripping paint or rust.

Oh! I've seen those - never knew that's what they were called.

http://www.megalaw.com/

You might find this link helpful in finding the code or law for your area. Could save them the trouble of looking it up for you

Could also give them ammo too. Like I have seen here. If the city didn't like the law they just changed it after the fact.

I think your wife must love you very much.
She is evidently prepared to relocate to a place where your loud-(or not so loud) music won't bother the neighbors. But, You have to ask yourself if this battle, whether you are 'in the right', or not, is worth the cost-to both of you. I sense some pretty strong apprehension in her post, and suggest you 2 seriously talk it over when things have cooled a bit. This music squabble is really, a very small thing in the bigger scheme of your lives. And, there is such a thing as winning a battle but losing the war. Is this really worth bringing some unhappiness into your lives?

Thanks Butter. It gave me a link to the Kerrville PD in which I see that they are not fulfilling their stated mission.

Quote
TYPICAL DUTIES

1. Enforces all local, state and federal laws in a democratic manner.
2. Acts as a mediator.

Letter of self protection : Wifey version.

April 26, 2005

John Young, Chief of Police,

In the interest of community harmony, I wish to discuss a matter of concern. My name is Clifford Smith and I reside at 340 Lake Drive, here in the city limits of Kerrville. I was visited by KPD Officer Moreno on April 22, 2005 at 10:22 am because he was responding to a complaint by a neighbor that my music was too loud. I expressed to him that to my knowledge I was not violating any law. I was listening to music while working in my storage room and my neighbor storms over without even introducing himself and began demanding that I turn the music off! Officer Moreno’s response frankly surprised me as he simply said that since my neighbor complained, that made it against the law. Trying to be respectful, yet desiring clarification and something fair to myself as well as my neighbor, I asked him what level can I listen to the music at? He stated that he did not need to come out with a decibel meter every time he got a complaint and that if he had to keep coming back, he would confiscate the radio and speakers from my truck. Thinking it not good to argue this any further, I told him I would just turn the music off.

Chief Young, aren’t laws made in consideration of and for the protection of everyone? I enjoy music as much as my neighbor may enjoy silence. Also, please understand, this neighbor lives on the next street. I have talked to my next door neighbor and the one’s across the street and they voice that the music doesn’t offend them and it is not too loud and it is usually off way before anyone goes to bed. Officer Moreno even commented that most people wouldn’t be offended by the radio station I was listening to. Surely lawnmowers, weed eaters, chain saws, etc. are as loud as the volume level of the music I was listening to.

By the way, the radio in my 2005 Toyota Tacoma is a factory stock unit with no window rattling sub amplifier system.

I then called the Duty Officer at the station and was told the law specifies a noise is considered unreasonable if it exceeds 85 decibels.

Respectfully, Chief Young. I am requesting your assistance in this matter. Could you please clarify for me exactly how I am violating any law by playing music in my yard in mid morning? We have speed limit signs that make it clear how fast we can go along with other traffic laws, there are building codes, etc. Where does the law even imply that one individual can determine by his own opinion that another is breaking the law as my neighbor did when he called the police department from my own yard to come and “shut it down”? Had this neighbor come to me and asked me to turn it down or if Officer Moreno would have clarified the law with my neighbor as well as myself, we could have worked this out.

Could you please send me something in writing that is clear and concise in this matter as I wish to abide by the law, be considerate of my neighbors without being bullied or treated unjustly.

Thank you,

Clifford W. Smith

hmmmm.....

That version is much better.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I think your wife must love you very much. She is evidently prepared to relocate to a place where your loud-(or not so loud) music won't bother the neighbors. But, You have to ask yourself if this battle, whether you are 'in the right', or not, is worth the cost-to both of you. I sense some pretty strong apprehension in her post, and suggest you 2 seriously talk it over when things have cooled a bit. This music squabble is really, a very small thing in the bigger scheme of your lives. And, there is such a thing as winning a battle but losing the war. Is this really worth bringing some unhappiness into your lives?

Thank you Don. I think highly of your thoughts.
In fact, my wife does love me very much. I am a lucky man to have the love of such a good woman. The issue at hand is not solely the reason she wants to move.

My addition to wifey's version:

I appreciate the job and service of Officer Moreno and the rest of the Kerrville Police Department. However, I do not feel the resolution as it stands was based on the Constitution of the United States, the laws of the State of Texas, Kerr County, nor the Charter of the City of Kerrville as proclaimed in your mission statement. I feel he failed in his first two duties as described in Kerrville PDs job description for a patrol officer.
Enforces all local, state and federal laws in a democratic manner.
Acts as a mediator.

I don't think it would be a good idea to site Officer Moreno's short comings at this point. The police department does have to work together and I'd think Officer Moreno's relationship with his chief is much better than yours. Going over Officer Moreno's head is insult enough. You know that Chief Young will have a talk with Officer Moreno concerning this matter before he gets back to you. You wouldn't want to put Officer Moreno on the defensive at this point. After your imediate point gets addressed and if your not getting satifaction you want then I would spring Moreno's shortcomings in detail and get more detailed over the noise issue too. A recording device is needed to ensure you the best behavior from the officer that you deal with.

I agree...the second draft of the letter is much better, and without the added paragraph about Officer Moreno. One of the advantages of being married to a good woman is that she'll give you good advice.

Butter, AndyLPhoto, thanks. Thanks to all else also.
The letter has gone out with no regrets on my part. My wife's version included the fact the officer threatened to confiscate my stereo, and in the last part mentioned that I did not wish to be bullied or treated unjustly. I think Officer Moreno will already be upset with me. If for nothing else than he not getting his way.
The Bandera County Sherriff's Dept. was pleanty mad at me also. To the point of me getting falsely arrested and assaulted by an officer of theirs. I think I made a mistake by pussyfooting around with them.
Not this time. I live a clean life and I refuse to be scared. Talk about terrorism ! I hope the letter goads the officer or the police department into showing their true colors. I do have recording devices and expect the worse.
As in the PM I posted (with permission).

quote PM: I really admire John for this, but at the same time I know that it cost him untold time, money and effort because he stood his ground alone, he could not get enough support for a class action suite,cause they realised it was only 25 dollars at stake.. The truth is most people are sheep who will give away their freedom.This effort consumed several years of his life and you have to ask " was it worth it?" "I don't know the answer."

Is it worth it ?

When do we say enough ? Freedom is not free. What of the sacrifices of our troops who have died giving us freedom ?

It is worth it to me. Although for many reasons, one which is to say thank you to the many throughout time, who have given us this freedom.
My initiative is not limited to the KPD. I plan on haveing a well rounded attack.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: My intention is to hit back fast, hard, and with as much legal force as I can.

I was bullied the last time. I feel as if it is starting again. With a bully, you either fight or cave in. There is no half way. This letter is actually for documentation purposes. Letters to my State Senator, State Representative, my US counterparts, the ACLU, news organizations will be forthcoming. In addition, thanks to Butters link, I am now able to easily locate all similar complaints and uh, get facts.
I am beyond antagonizing the neighbor. I was hot that day.
Thanks again all, I will be at work for a week.
I will keep you updated.

FYI Don. My wife feels I am right and although she hates what is happening (again), she believes in right. The reason for her support. Her love is not so great that she would support me doing anything wrong. Dang anchor

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 04-27-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Butter: I don't think it would be a good idea to site Officer Moreno's short comings at this point. The police department does have to work together and I'd think Officer Moreno's relationship with his chief is much better than yours. Going over Officer Moreno's head is insult enough. You know that Chief Young will have a talk with Officer Moreno concerning this matter before he gets back to you. You wouldn't want to put Officer Moreno on the defensive at this point.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: The letter has gone out with no regrets on my part. My wife's version included the fact the officer threatened to confiscate my stereo, and in the last part mentioned that I did not wish to be bullied or treated unjustly. I think Officer Moreno will already be upset with me. If for nothing else than he not getting his way.

I did not mention that I precluded Officer Moreno's shorcomings with the praise that he had done his duty proffessionally and courteously. I was sugar coating his job performance. My wife had me remove that part as it was untrue.

As promised, I will relay the police chief's response. It was a little short of what I expected, but I was not disappointed. I hope you will not be also.

There was no responce.
I feel I deserve a responce. To protect and serve my butt ! I am a home owner, also have property at Medina lake, pay taxes, vote in elections on all levels of government, and mean to abide by the law. Is it too much to ask for an opinion from the police chief on an interpretation of the law ? I think not. I will get an answer.
He is a little busy See my update.
I will give chiefy till the end of my off week to respond to me. He will then get an electronic e-mail reminder from me, along with a certified letter, letting him know I expect a responce. In addition, his boss, either the mayor or city manager, will be getting notice from me that I expect a responce.
As I said, I pussyfooted around in the other jurisdiction. I let the local representatives of the law ticket, arrest, and assault me. Not this time. This will not be fought in the street. The County Attorney is also going to get a letter asking for clarification on the law.

If you are looking for an actual response from any public official, request it by a certain date and in a format such as a letter/email or a phone call ( what you consider acceptable). Give a reasonable time period, since you obviously (not to some people though..) aren't the only issue/person/problem they have to deal with and your complaint is aweful tiny compared to dealing with murders, burglaries, rapes, child molestors, drug dealers etc...

So, your best method is to request a written response by such and such a date (a couple of weeks or a month is even better). Send it registered mail is even better or deliver it by hand politely and get a copy stamped by their office.

Works wonders with all sorts of public officials, not just police. County/city council members, buracrats at all levels... you are leaving a trail that can be auditted and they know it, much harder to blow you off intentionally or not.

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah... don't forget to include what sort of resolution you want and how you'd like to see it achieved. Another of the rules... when bringing a complaint, bring a solution. It may not be the one you get, but it seperates you from the whiners that can't be made happy (so in their view... why bother trying).

[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 05-05-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Oh yeah... don't forget to include what sort of resolution you want and how you'd like to see it achieved. Another of the rules... when bringing a complaint, bring a solution.

Very good advice Scott-Wa, all of it. Especially what I quoted.
Thanks.

cliffw
The hornets nest has been disturbed might wanta wait till it settles down some. Wouldn't want you getting shot cause your music was not loud enough

Officer Mermeano says to Chief--
Hey we can probally get away with shooting someone in that neighborhood cause they play the music so loud no one will hear the gunshots!

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." ~Benjamin Franklin~

Thank You Boondawg ! Sorry, only one plus per member

Ahhh. I recieved a responce from the Chief of the Police. I knew I was worthy.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: As promised, I will relay the police chief's response. It was a little short of what I expected, but I was not disappointed. I hope you will not be also.

This is exactly as I expected. (PIP ability test-scan to computer, post on forum)

Dang my scan to computer, PIP to forum abilities. He we go. 40 minutes a word, word for word.

Dear Mr. Smith,
Enclosed is the information you requested reguarding Officer Moreno's actions on April 22nd, 2005. The city of Kerrville does not have a nuisance ordinance and relies upon state law to provide authority for enforcement of loud music violations.

According to Officer Moreno you stated that you had the right to listen to your music at any level at any time of the day. Additionally, you stated you had to play your music loud because you could'nt hear it over the power tools that you would be using away from your truck.

Since officers do not carry decible meters to measure noise levels, they must use their judgement coupled with the information obtained. After interviewing both you and your neighbor and based upon information gathered (apostrophie should be here), Officer Moreno requested you comply by turning down your music. Officer Moreno's request was reasonable and appropriate based upon state law.

Sincerely,
John M. Young Jr.
Chief of Police
Kerrville Police Department

As I thought.....

quote Originally posted by Butter: The police department does have to work together and I'd think Officer Moreno's relationship with his chief is much better than yours.

Butter was right. Was. Or soon will be.

Officer Moreno lied. Seems easy to prove also. The fun has indeed begun.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." ~Benjamin Franklin~

Thanks again Boondawg.
I will not give up freedom, I will assert it !
The question earlier was......is it worth it? The answer to some is, "with my blood". I have to ask that you ask yourself is it worth it. Is it ?
To me, it is not about how much I wanna get away with annoying my neighbors. If there was a different tollerance for a legal definition of unreasonable noise, I will consciously abide by it. I am offended that I am abiding by the law, yet again I am the bad man.

quote Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O: The insanity of government only lasts as long as we are commited to it. -Andrew Rogers-

Thank you F-I-E-R-O
Anyone else wish to stand up and be counted. Or as 84Bill said, we can all stand up one by one and get picked off.

I wish to offer an observation.
Ever notice how the people who make the rules get pissed when others win by them? They take their ball home. Or the rules change.

Post to be continued.......formulating a responce to the dutiful reply of Chief Young, KPD.

Quick side note:
Maryjane, Wifey wishes to thank you for reading between the lines. She thanks you for recognizing her dilema.

Here is your problem

quote According to Officer Moreno you stated that you had the right to listen to your music at any level at any time of the day. Additionally, you stated you had to play your music loud because you could'nt hear it over the power tools that you would be using away from your truck.

it is your word against a fellow officer's word. Whose word do you think the Chief is going to believe? You best have all your secret recording devices in order from when he comes around the next time.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 05-11-2005).]

Whever it's your word against the officer's - you lose.
Unless you recorded the coversation, Officer Obi just screwed you.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: You best have all your secret recording devices in order from when he comes around the next time.

What good would that do ?
Shoot First
Sorry for slacking off guys.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: My intention is to hit back fast, hard, and with as much legal force as I can.

I busted some ribs and have been slow.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Officer Moreno lied. Seems easy to prove also. The fun has indeed begun.

quote Chief's responce, backing his man Moreno Additionally, you stated you had to play your music loud because you could'nt hear it over the power tools that you would be using away from your truck.

Officer Morerno did lie and I think I can create doubt in his recollection.
This is not a dead issue with me but wifey would rather we move. We just bought this place last October and we are doing nothing wrong. She saw me abused in the other jurisdiction. Where can we move to and not be harrassed by people who enforce a decible law that do not have a decible meter ? She want's 16 acres.
I love my wife but,

quote Originally posted by cliffw: I will give you the shirt off my back, but do not try to take it from me.

but then again, my wife is not trying to take it from me.
I am exasperated. Chief Young will be getting a letter. I am going to proceed. My support comes from my wife's son. A two tour Iraq vet, non drinking, church going, Mom loving boy who also believes in what I am doing. He has encouraged what I am doing and has voluteered to be a "wittness". I am glad Mom believes in her son.
Problem is, what about later. I have experienced "later", I am victim. What ever. Well, that is not right to Wifey. She is scared. As I said, somewhere in this thread, "talk about terrorism".

I feel wrong for being right. I will write Cheif Young a letter.
One more thing, for Wifey,

quote Originally posted by cliffw: It is Wifey's wish.............................. I will let her speak for herself. Hi guys! My name is Cindi, aka, "mouth that runs like a fast river.", aka, "wifey". I would like to ask that you to help me out. cliffw is a very headstrong person and this one subject is a very sore one for him. It doesn't take much for him to get way out of contrrol and unreasonable about this issue as he feels his rights have been violated in the past (in a different county). While he and I don't agree on everything concerning music and how it relates to neighbors, we do agree that the law here states an officer can ask you to turn down a noise that exceeds 85 decibles. Whether you believe a person has the right to exercize their right regardless of who it bothers is where we part ways. I enjoy music and I even enjoy cranking it up on a good song occassionally but not at the discomfort of my neighbor. But the real issue with him and I is this. WE CANNOT AFFORD ANY MORE TROUBLE. Even if he is in the right. So please don't egg him on unless you are willing to come and stand with him in Kerrville, TX. Be prepared to at the very least get a citation and quite possibly arrested and spend the night in jail. In my opinion, there is no music in the world worth that. Like I said before........... we have been here and done this and once this starts, it never ends. You become afraid to leave your dog outside in the yard, neighbors threaten and even get in your yard and attempt to beat you up and you can even get your house burned down along with your stereo and the law officers keep coming and coming even though the district attorney can't even proscecute the case. IT NEVER ENDS! I desire and am praying this does not start over again. Thanks for your support! Cindi

I've been following this and it is quite interesting.
A couple of observations.
Does the neighbor complain when you use your air-tools??
One would think that they are louder than your music.

Suggestion record your air-tools and make them in to MP3's that way
you can get about 100 on the CD. Play them on your stereo and then
see what he says. LOL

Do you have a camcorder?? I would have wife set it up when the Officer comes.
Also if you have a hand held recorder you can record the conversation as proof.

The chief doesn't seem to want to resolve the issue amicably as he offers no suggestion
as to how it can be resolved, and make everyone happy.

What really gets me is that this guy doesn't even live next to you,, what an A$$hole he is.
I wish you Good Luck as this sucks for you and your wife.
If I ever called the cops on any one for music they would laugh at me. They are building so
many new houses around here that you get to listen to , Rock, Country, Rap and talk.
all at the same time.

Dear Chief Young,

I can appreciate your fast response to my letter with concerns of the matter at hand.
The only problem I have is not proving who is right or who is wrong, I would just like to
come to some ageement between all parties involved in this matter that will make all of us
happy and live peacefully in our neighborhood.
I think what officer Moreno was trying to say is that I said "Why can't I listen to my music at
it's current level" As I did not think it was that loud. Also I think officer Moreno meant that I said
"My power tools were louder than the music". I know that I sometimes mix things up too so it isn't uncommon.

I can appreciate that officers don't carry decibel meters with them and that is why I offered mine to officer
Moreno so that he could see that I was well with in the State laws. I guess he must have thought I was
trying to be disrespectful towards him, which in fact I wasn't I was just trying to be helpful, to which he
declined to use it.

I understand the reasoning behind officer Moreno's request to turn the music down as he was only trying to
keep peace between both parties. The reason that I feel like I am getting the short end of the stick here is
because it seems that my rights weren't taken into consideration. Was it ever explained to me what this
neighbor had said about the problem? NO. All I was told is to turn the music down, no explanation, nothing
just the fact that it is against the law, to which I found the state law and I am well within the law.

I hope there is a way that we can come to some sort of an agreement with this problem. I like to listen
to my music and my neighbor likes his peace and quiet. I know he can call you all the time on my
music but as long as I am abiding by the state law there isn't much that can be done except for wasting
your time and the officer that goes to the call.

I would hope that all parties involved can act like gentelman and find some sort of resolution to this matter.
I am not trouble maker and think that my neighbor isn't either, maybe we can set up some kind of mediation
and once and for all put this behind us.

Thank You
Cliff W aka Loud Music Guy

If that doesn't work please see top for suggestions

The music is on.

Cliff got a New Sound System and needs to try it out.
Get the Camera and tape recorder ready

GOOD LUCK to ya

I normally don't post at work but here goes. Forgive me but I haven't read all the replies.
Cliff I think you could have offered to turn it down and appeased the neighbor. Although it sounds as if he could have asked nicely. I also think the cop "officer ovaries" could have handeled the situation alot better himself. You could have turned it down for the cop while he was there. The instant he was down the road you could have turned it back up. On the next complaint you could ask the cop to check the dB as you feel you are w/in the law. He could have looked at your meter said you were fine then went to the neighbor and said sorry he is w/in the law. end of story. The cops attitude about confiscating your equipment I think is a little harsh. So your telling me that repeated offenses gives them the right to confiscate, and is that actually part of the noise law in your state/county. I don't think as Americans we would put up with that. Talk about marshall law.
Here in Florida or actually Orange Co. (Orlando) last year during the hurricanes a neighbor was using their generator, apparently the noise was bothering another neighbor. The neighbor reported the noise to the police. The neighbor who issued the complaint did not have a generator and apparently was with some form of the county gov. The neighbor using the generator had an elderly person living with them. All of this made the local news. Yes the generator should have been turned off at night per the ordinace. Because of this ruckus the ordinace was changed. It is now okay to run your generator at night but only during huricaine season or after a huricaine until electricty is restored (or something to that effect). Although if I remember correctly when the story fisrt aired it wasn't maybe a day or 2 later that the generator was stolen.
Anyway I agree that the laws are there for a reason and that cops are there to uphold the law not make the law. And by the way just so you know in the state of Florida if you are pulled over for speeding and the cop states that his radar shows you were speeding according to the cop he does not have to show you the radar reading. Ask my husband he knows. Although around here the cops speed like crazy they are always passing me no lights no sierns just exceeding the speed limit and I should know I run 75 in a 70 but it's really like 73. Oh and turn signals they apparently don't work on thier cars either, but they are the law and therefore do not have to obey the law. do as i say not as i do.
Wow this is probably the most i've ever posted. I must get back to work now, I'm sure someone needs paperclips.