This is a very scary thought. Perhaps we should forget about Iraq and go fight the real threat.

• North Korea Missile Test 'Brings US Within Range'

America has been diverted from its attempts to force North Korea to give up its nuclear weapons by the war in Iraq but the possibility of nuclear-armed missiles being aimed at it would provide a new spur to action.

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/11/wkor11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/11/ixworld.html

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quote Originally posted by Liquid-Reality: http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/ 11/wkor11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/11/ixworld.html

"This is a very scary thought. Perhaps we should forget about Iraq and go fight the real threat."

Yes we should, but we don't fight formidable enemies, at least since WWII.

"• North Korea Missile Test 'Brings US Within Range'

America has been diverted from its attempts to force North Korea to give up its nuclear weapons by the war in Iraq but the possibility of nuclear-armed missiles being aimed at it would provide a new spur to action."

The nerve of another country wanting to defend itself . Imperialistic countries want to have all the land, all the barganing power, and all of the control.

Umm no there is no problem with other countries having nukes but lets try to keep them out of the hands of fuking crazy deranged warlords that are known for starving their people to death and think they are a god. I am glad I live in this America and not the one you would have us live in ed. I live in the midwest so I am not in range yet MAYBE HE WILL NUKE MASSACHUSETTS AND TAKE CARE OF SOME OF THE NATIONS PROBLEMS..

N. Korea having missiles that could reach the U.S. is almost a non-factor. We still have dozens of nuclear subs waiting to strike at any given moment. It would be near impossible to neutralize the threat of your own destruction while destroying us. The Soviets ran into the same problem.

The theory of Deterrence lives on.

quote Originally posted by Liquid-Reality:

"Umm no there is no problem with other countries having nukes but lets try to keep them out of the hands of fuking crazy deranged warlords that are known for starving their people to death and think they are a god."

But enough about Christianity; this is a N. Korea thread. Let's see, we spend more on defense than any other country, have amongst the highest incarceration rates of any country, have a high rate of homeless considering we are one of the most advanced nations in the worldd, still execute our own people while virtually all of the rest of the free world/industrialized nations do not; maybe we should turn ours in.

"I am glad I live in this America and not the one you would have us live in ed."

One where we don't execute our own people for fear of mistake. One where we feed our people first, even if it means taxing those poor rich people (intentional oxymoron). One where people and families get guaranteed health care, instead of privatised so the rich can have specialized care. That's my utopian America, and if we stopped warring with the rest of the world maybe they wouldn't cross the oceans to retaliate.

"I live in the midwest so I am not in range yet MAYBE HE WILL NUKE MASSACHUSETTS AND TAKE CARE OF SOME OF THE NATIONS PROBLEMS.."

All you're talking about/worried about is opportunity, why not talk about motive? Opportunity without motive is without danger. And then you advocate killing Democrats? Ya, we need to worry about N. Korea .

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: The nerve of another country wanting to defend itself . Imperialistic countries want to have all the land, all the barganing power, and all of the control.

What Country?

If you are refering to North Korea, it is not a country. It is a Boys Club of a handful of Liberal Socialists who believe in state run health care, Guns only belong to the military, and everybody owes everyone else their life's labors.

Oh BTW, the PEOPLE who make-up the REST of the "country" are slaves and have NO say in what their "country" wants or does not want.

Well, come on Ed...I might have misspelled a word. Time to go on the attack and dismiss my observations for failing to dot an 'i'.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 06-12-2004).]

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: I agree it's a no-factor, as we could only retaliate once we realized they were in the air. The factor that matters is working with people instead of warring with them. Why do we get so mad at countries that arm themselves? That's what we did and still do to maintain our superiority. The Soviets ran into what problem and when?

Well I don't think it is as much about N Korea defending themselves as it is N Korea taking over the South which would have serious ramifications. Same with China and Taiwan.

The Soviets ran into the problem with our nuclear subs. They couldn't figure out a way to neutralize that threat. I believe I was watching one show where a high ranking Soviet naval officer lashed out during peace talks, saying how our subs are the causing them a lot of problems.

Couldn't the experimental torpedos the Kursk was testing be used to neutralize the US subs? Thought I'd read they went a couple hundred mph underwater. Can't see any other use for them cept for that.

Not to get off the subject but the torpedoes on the Kursk weren't any faster than normal. They failed due to a leak of the fuel (hydrogen peroxide) that caused a fire and then the explosion that blew the sub apart. The US and Britain quit using that stuff as fuel due to all the safety issues. What you're probably thinking of is the anti-ship missles known to NATO as the SS-N-19 Shipwreck missle which flies close to Mach 2 and can get past a battle groups anti-missle missles. It's only useful against a surface ship though and not a sub. The problem with them killing our subs is not torpedoes or how fast they are but the fact that our boomers as well as their's are extremely quiet and difficult to find. Once a boomer heads out to deep water they can hide out in the vast ocean and never be found. They can lie off the coast of a country and wait for the signal to fire. Unless another sub is within a few miles of them they'll never have a chance to stop them from firing. Mutual Assured Destruction by subs is one of the factors that kept the cold war cold and that also would deter the N. Koreans.

I guess you guys didn't read that it could hit Alaska. Maybe they will let us drill for oil there if this happened. (just kidding) Aren't we working on a laser that can shoot intercontinental missiles out of the air?( I bet that came out of Ronald Reagans SDI) Even if the did launch a missile at us, do you remember the treaty we had with the Russians for mutual annihilation? Don't you think that they should expect the same treatment? Do you think China would stand behind them if they did something that dumb? Especially now that we are probably the biggest trade partner China has.

quote Originally posted by haasguy: Mutual Assured Destruction by subs is one of the factors that kept the cold war cold and that also would deter the N. Koreans.

MAD works when you have something to lose. Our "friends" the Saudis supported the 911 attack. They probably could have done it directly in our face knowing that as long as they have oil and Bush, nothing would come of that. (Then again 15 of 19 hijackers being Saudi is pretty much in our face.)

MAD doesn't apply to the modern terrorists since many of those that do the act expect to die an honorable death or at least have been convinced that suicide terrorism is the ultimate sacrifice.

Add to the mix North Korea and who they are really fronting for, China. North Korea is China's little mad dog who is charged with keeping things in the the region upset. While we sit around and hope the spineless Arabs will embrace democracy or that Al Qaeda will take a vacation, North Korea is funding new missile technology with help from many of our so called friends. We have no long term focus when it comes to who is really a threat.

I would be more worried that a few countries are funding North Korea's missile technology so that they can have those long range missiles in their inventory someday. Who will North Korea be selling this technology to? So now while we have been scouring caves in Iraq for nuclear bombs and such, North Korea, a country led by a madman with a very large and rich friend (China) has been advancing it's offensive capacity rapidly.

One more note on the great balance MAD was suppose to have been. Although the USSR had lots of warheads, later on it was determined they have a gross shortage of launch vehicles that actually operated. Their submarines were noiser than a classroom of preschoolers and so were easy targets. About the only real shot they would have had to hurt us was with their ace in the hole, masses of bombers with stand-off missiles that they would have used to isolate the European continent from resupply. The USSR did learn some lessons from Germany in WW2. Europe is ripe for colonization if you can keep the US from crossing the oceans. In that case it isn't even clear that we would respond to the use of tactical nuclear weapons with our strategic armory, swapping battlefield nuke potshots since history would not be kind to anyone who nuked a city.

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It has been known that North Korea could reach the US with its intercontinental missles. The problem, what to do about it.

Mutually assured destruction is a good defense againts people like the Soviets, who do not want to be blown up. But what about North Korea? Their leader is a complete mad man. Reality left his thinking long ago, and he just might not be scared of his country being obliterated by nukes. Then what?

Do we invade as we did in Iraq? Sure we could get rid of their leader, and eventually reinite Korea under the south's government, but is it safe to attack someone with nukes and long range missles already in place? What if he Nukes LA, San Francisco, and Seattle before we get him? Maybe he doesn't do that, or is not ready to at this point, but then what if China comes to his defense? It would then start to look like World War 3.

So if attacking is out, we are really down to negotiating. The Chinese have influence, so the real key is to convince the Chinese to keep North Korea in line. They are not exactly our friends either, so what do we give China in exchange. Our manufacturing jobs? Our white colar jobs? Missile guidance technology (and yes, we have sold this to China)? Whats next? Hand over Taiwan? North Korea's gov't really should be tossed aside, but its not easy to do.

It would be great to do something about the situation, but it is a vary sensitive situation to handle. We must be careful!

I could understand being nice and diplomatic if we had their respect(rest of world)But we don't.They hate us cause we have money or power or because we never mind are own damn business.
So why do we always put up a front of being such good guys.
I see it as an oppertunity.We have nothing to lose.
lets just drop all the crap and say were in it for the money!
Who is with us?
If they don't side then they are an enemy.
If they are a threat then say their a threat .30 days later if things have not changed take drastic action against them.
That includes any country that decided to side with us.They must act against them also.
we have our own council.We get an automatic 25 % of the vote cause we said so.Any vote over 50% and we act.

either we quit being the way we are or we should just be honest about it and implement this plan.Pussyfooting in the middle does not work.

I betcha we don't to anything to N.Korea.We will just talk them to death.We are so wishy washy .We go after iraq but are afraid to deal with Korea.Wrong.There must not be any money to be made there.If there was we would have a fight on our hands.

At best we may ask china to do something about it.We should get used to asking china for things anyway.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: At best we may ask china to do something about it.We should get used to asking china for things anyway.

The future beckons us to be humble or worse....Groveling for oil and then China to reel in their pet who craps on our lawn. What a sad day when being a super power is like being super man wanting to pee but the bathroom is full of kryptonite and there are no trees to wiz behind.

quote Originally posted by Wudman: The future beckons us to be humble or worse....Groveling for oil and then China to reel in their pet who craps on our lawn. What a sad day when being a super power is like being super man wanting to pee but the bathroom is full of kryptonite and there are no trees to wiz behind.

wow i really like that
It's poetic

Thanks Pokey..
Truth and poetry often are found intertwined until someone tries to convice otherwise. Generally those folks are politicians who know neither.

kinda funny we should be talking bout poems lol

quote Originally posted by Liquid-Reality: This is a very scary thought. Perhaps we should forget about Iraq and go fight the real threat. • North Korea Missile Test 'Brings US Within Range' America has been diverted from its attempts to force North Korea to give up its nuclear weapons by the war in Iraq but the possibility of nuclear-armed missiles being aimed at it would provide a new spur to action. http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/ 11/wkor11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/11/ixworld.html

In your picture, you look just like that guy, oh, whats his name, the one who can't speak in complete sentences and likes to start fights...

We should invade EVERY country that pisses us off. Of course we'll need to draft everyone under 50 and double taxes to do it, but only a liberal nonpatriot would call that wrong.

quote Originally posted by Liquid-Reality: This is a very scary thought. Perhaps we should forget about Iraq and go fight the real threat. • North Korea Missile Test 'Brings US Within Range' America has been diverted from its attempts to force North Korea to give up its nuclear weapons by the war in Iraq but the possibility of nuclear-armed missiles being aimed at it would provide a new spur to action. http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/ 11/wkor11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/11/ixworld.html

Nah, it's not really all that scary. If you look at N. Korea you will see that the city is a full of people and all kinds of stuff but go 20 miles in any direction and it is nearly all 3rd world. A few stratigic hits and N. Korea will crumble like a cheap dinner plate made in..err umm China? It's a concern but not an ultra critical threat to the US. Russia was a threat 24/7 365.

China on the other hand... now that is a scary thought.. Best keep them guys well fed if ya know what I mean.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-13-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Liquid-Reality: Umm no there is no problem with other countries having nukes but lets try to keep them out of the hands of fuking crazy deranged warlords that are known for starving their people to death and think they are a god. I am glad I live in this America and not the one you would have us live in ed. I live in the midwest so I am not in range yet MAYBE HE WILL NUKE MASSACHUSETTS AND TAKE CARE OF SOME OF THE NATIONS PROBLEMS..

As I understand it, N. Korea could possible hit Alaska or some other location on the west coast, LA maybe? Anyway you said that the midwest is "not in range". How then can N.Korea nuke Mass? Massachusetts is on the EAST COAST, BTW.

I have made a map for you, just in case.....

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 06-13-2004).]

N korea is very unstable and has it's own security issues.
most of the countries that were part of the nuclear arms race chose to also develope defense systems to counter an attack.
N korea has neither the capability to deliver a strike on the US nor the defense to prevent a strike from the US if they even tried.

however, i believe that N. korea has put itself in more danager after anouncing that they have developed nuclear weapons .
with terrorist orgs out there looking for any way to obtain a WMD(s) it would be very dangerous for a country to have wmd(s) if they dont have the means to defend themselves or prevent the weapons from being stollin. but having said that , im sure that if terrorist decided to invade any country that is known to have such weapon and a lack of defense would immediately be met with the force of a nuclear strike (likely the US) or even (china) since we're talking about N Korea

[This message has been edited by JRM-2M6 (edited 06-13-2004).]

quote Originally posted by JRM-2M6: N korea is very unstable and has it's own security issues. most of the countries that were part of the nuclear arms race chose to also develope defense systems to counter an attack. N korea has neither the capability to deliver a strike on the US nor the defense to prevent a strike from the US if they even tried. however, i believe that N. korea has put itself in more danager after anouncing that they have developed nuclear weapons . with terrorist orgs out there looking for any way to obtain a WMD(s) it would be very dangerous for a country to have wmd(s) if they dont have the means to defend themselves or prevent the weapons from being stollin. but having said that , im sure that if terrorist decided to invade any country that is known to have such weapon and a lack of defense would immediately be met with the force of a nuclear strike (likely the US) or even (china) since we're talking about N Korea

Good points

But do you have any idea how hard it is to move around in N. Korea? They shoot you dead then ask questions then put you on trial just for show and put you in a cage for 5 years then execute you in the public square. It aint like America at all, it's a country that is a jail within a jail run by the wardon.

i saw a beaver today!

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Good points But do you have any idea how hard it is to move around in N. Korea? They shoot you dead then ask questions then put you on trial just for show and put you in a cage for 5 years then execute you in the public square. It aint like America at all, it's a country that is a jail within a jail run by the wardon.

terrorist and nuclear bombs care nothing about N Korea's policies or prison accomodations.
terrorist will only be focused on getting the weapons or die trying while a bomb is the ultimate terrorist since it's mission (success or fail) will ultimately end in self destruction after hitting its target.

so honestly the difficulty involved wouldn't matter much to either.
despite the crazy wardon.

I think NK is smart enough not to do.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 06-14-2004).]