1977 MGB which hasn't run since 1994. I rebuilt the carb and fuel pump, and it started!

...of course it will only run with the choke fully on, and then it runs at 3,000 RPM. Guess there's a vacuum leak somewhere...

These British cars, tho--the fuel pump has POINTS. I had to take it apart, clean the points, and solder a broken wire; then it worked.

Once the engine is running properly, then I get to redo the rear brakes. Coolant is dripping from the heater valve. It needs an alternator. And of course it will need a million other little things taken care of. This car's still got a long way to go before it's really road-worthy--but it ran!

Ed

GREAT!
I remember you asking about the carb rebuild...
They are cool little cars.. I believe Skitime once had one or two of them.

Yeah! Good for you. Once you get one running, it will last for a long time. The only problems are passing emissions and Lucas, Prince of Darkness.

Lucas 3 position switch: Off, Dim, Flicker or Smoke, Smoulder, Burn
Lucas invented the intermittent wiper, but he didn't mean too.
Lucas electronics work on smoke. Once the smoke escapes, the part doesn't work.

quote Originally posted by edhering: 1977 MGB which hasn't run since 1994. I rebuilt the carb and fuel pump, and it started! ...of course it will only run with the choke fully on, and then it runs at 3,000 RPM. Guess there's a vacuum leak somewhere... These British cars, tho--the fuel pump has POINTS. I had to take it apart, clean the points, and solder a broken wire; then it worked. Once the engine is running properly, then I get to redo the rear brakes. Coolant is dripping from the heater valve. It needs an alternator. And of course it will need a million other little things taken care of. This car's still got a long way to go before it's really road-worthy--but it ran! Ed

I feel your pain.. well, i feel it a LOT worse.. Stupid old cars..

Now there's a car that needs to be lowered! And it's just begging for a two-carb transplant from an earlier B.

If the distributor has points, check all the usual (old, primitive) tune-up parameters: point gap, timing, etc. Does that car have a single SU or a Stromberg carb? I forget. If it's a Stromberg, check for a torn diaphragm. (I guess that shouldn't be a issue if you rebuilt the carb.) If it's an SU HIF, check for a creeping (elongating) needle jet. (Again, you may already have replaced that part.) Yeah, you could have a vacuum leak, too.

What fun! Carry a rubber mallet so you can reach behind the seat and whack the panel where the fuel pump mounts, to start it running again when the points get dirty.

Q: Why do the English drink warm beer?
A: Because they all have Lucas refrigerators.

I know pretty much nothing about the MG's.... I saw a really nice one today. It must have been totally rebuilt because it was in perfect shape.

It was smaller then my fiero!

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: Yeah! Good for you. Once you get one running, it will last for a long time. The only problems are passing emissions and Lucas, Prince of Darkness. Lucas 3 position switch: Off, Dim, Flicker or Smoke, Smoulder, Burn Lucas invented the intermittent wiper, but he didn't mean too. Lucas electronics work on smoke. Once the smoke escapes, the part doesn't work.

Sorry, MrPbody, I didn't see your earlier post of that classic.

In spite of being primitive PITA cars, they ARE very cool. Congrats on your journey thus far!

"Why do the British drink warm beer?
They all have Lucas refrigerators."

(Former owner of a '59 Anglia, '67 Austin Healy.)

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 05-21-2004).]

The car has an electronic (aftermarket) ignition system. I haven't timed it yet--it won't stay running long enough. Besides, with no alt. currently in the car, the water pump doesn't turn which means no cooling--so I can only run it for short periods anyway.

Besides that, we're using a battery from the power boat--it ought to be good (it's only a year old) but it won't hold a charge. Looks like a shorted plate or something. SO we're going to get a new battery for it soon. Maybe then I'll be able to crank the engine longer than about 5 seconds and get it started again.

I tried blocking off the two emissions-related ports on the carb (crankcase vent and vapor canister) hoping to narrow the field of possibilities for the lean running. When I tried it, it coughed and ran for a bit, but never really got going; and when I tried it again, it wouldn't start and the battery ran out of juice.

The carb is a Zenith-Stromberg 175CD, and the diaphragm is brand spanking new. I tried tapping the pump with a hammer; no luck there. Luckily I had the old one which (as I said) needed only sweat and soldering iron to work again.

I've managed to make a needle adjustment tool out of stuff I had on hand. Now all I need to do is find a way to keep the dashpot from leaking all its oil....

Don't even get me started on Lucas electrics. Argh! The ground cable for the battery is red and the positive cable is black. When I hooked up the battery, I didn't think about what I was doing, and the "magic smoke" escaped from the alternator. Now I need a $25 alternator regulator. (Which is better than $90 for an alternator. )

Ed

3:44 AM.

...I was bored and had nothing else I wanted to do, so I decided to try something.

I took the piston out of the carb and disassembled it. I discovered that somebody really screwed that thing up sometime in the past. The needle was incorrectly assembled (that was my fault) and there was a piece of screw in it, to hold it together (I did NOT do that).

You see, here's how it works. The mixture needle sits in a brass sleeve, atop a spring. There is a small piece of wire holding these two parts in the sleeve. The top of the sleeve is threaded. When the needle is fitted to the piston, an adjusting screw in the piston screws into these threads.

Whoever got his dick-skinners on this thing before me didn't understand all this and put it together wrong. When I got into it, I thought this was the way it was supposed to be.

Well.

Tonight, then, I pulled it all apart--drove the adjuster screw out, etc. I discovered that the adjuster screw had had a hole punched through it which solves the mystery of why the damn piston won't hold any oil. I discovered that the needle was incorrectly assembled SUCH THAT THE MIXTURE WOULD BE EXCESSIVELY LEAN!!! As I said, that was my fault.

I corrected everythign I could. "QuikSteel" epoxy served to seal the hole in the screw. According to my info, aligning the base of the needle sleeve with the bottom of the piston is a "good enough" basic setting. Filled the piston with oil and put it in.

I was going to wait until tomorrow to try it, but I decided I didn't want to. To my surprise the battery was holding enough juice to turn the car over, so I decided to go for it and crank it until the batt died.

The batt didn't die. The car started. It took a lot of cranking, but it started.

I was able to take my foot completely off the accelerator and the car idled at around 800 RPM just as neat as you please!!! There's no vacuum leak at all--it was just the needle being put together wrong which made it too lean.

In my defense, I have to say that I knew nothing about these cars.... But the mixture adjust screw is bunged up, and as I said I didn't do that. So, I think all I'll need to do is order a new screw when I order the alternator rectifier. Then I can put it together CORRECTLY! HOODY HOO!!!

Ed

Way to go Ed!
I'm so excited for you.
That is going to be one very fun car to drive.

Part of the difficulty in the electrical system involves the weak electrical grounds. My cousin had a MGB (I got to drive it) and my Mom had an Austin Marina, a British Leeland product. Anyways, the Austin Marina's grounds got weak and corroded so the current "found" its way back through the throttle cable seizing it up. After several trips back to the dealership with a 35mph idle they figured it out. I remember several other goofy things going on that cleared up after they fixed the grounds.
Us Fiero owners always know about good grounds so I'm not telling you anything that you dont know already. Happy to hear that you got it running. Its going to take plastic surgery to remove the grin off your face after you go for a drive, have fun.

quote Originally posted by jetman: Way to go Ed! I'm so excited for you. That is going to be one very fun car to drive. Part of the difficulty in the electrical system involves the weak electrical grounds. My cousin had a MGB (I got to drive it) and my Mom had an Austin Marina, a British Leeland product. Anyways, the Austin Marina's grounds got weak and corroded so the current "found" its way back through the throttle cable seizing it up. After several trips back to the dealership with a 35mph idle they figured it out. I remember several other goofy things going on that cleared up after they fixed the grounds. Us Fiero owners always know about good grounds so I'm not telling you anything that you dont know already. Happy to hear that you got it running. Its going to take plastic surgery to remove the grin off your face after you go for a drive, have fun.

I know what you're saying! When my Dad bought the car in 1987, I think I put around 10k on it that summer. It accelerates like molasses in January (0-60 in 17 seconds ) but no roof and great handling--it IS a lot of fun, and I look forward to driving it again!

Thanks for the kind words!

Ed

quote Originally posted by edhering: I know what you're saying! When my Dad bought the car in 1987, I think I put around 10k on it that summer. It accelerates like molasses in January (0-60 in 17 seconds ) but no roof and great handling--it IS a lot of fun, and I look forward to driving it again!

*cough* Engine Swap *cough*

You can do what the factory did and put a V-8 in it. Supposidly, the 215 cu alum. rover v8 or a Buick v8 from 1963 are the engines that MGs came with in the later years. They aluminium one is even lighter than the stock (all cast iron) 1800cc engine.

Nice work, Ed!

Engine swap: believe me, it's occurred to me more than once. If it were my car I'd probably already be shopping for a new engine. But Dad wants to keep it stock. Of course, on the other hand, I've heard him musing about putting a different engine in there.

Someone makes a kit that allows you to put a Buick V6 into the MGB. That would be good. Get a 3.8 L in good condition, add a nice 4-speed automatic transmission (Dad doesn't like to shift gears) and AC and the car would be perfect....

The parts to fix the alternator and the rear brakes should be here Wed or Thu. If I can, I'm going to take a victory lap around the block...

And here are some pics.

The car in the garage:

The interior:

The engine compartment:

And of course it's "roommate"

Ed

mmm grand national swap :P

there was a guy that put the 3.8 turbo into an opel gt

Well, this is curious.

Got a new rectifier pack for the alternator and I put it in. The light which indicates a "no charge" condition (the "Ignition" light ) did not go out even when I ran the engine at 3,000 RPM.

Today I took it off and took it to a place for testing. They said it was fine. So I brought it home and put it back in, started the car, ran it just over 2,000, and the ignition light went off!

Anyway, the car now needs the following to be back on the road:

Front motor mounts
tuneup (incl. carb adjustments--not sure I can do this but I'll try)
rear brake cyls rebuilt, system bled, new rear brake shoes
License plates

...and it will be drivable. I drove it forward and backwards in the garage, just a foot or so in each direction. Today marked the first time that car has moved under engine power since 1993.

W00t; I say, w00t.

Of course it needs a lot more than that before it will really be safe to drive anywhere other than around the block. Belts. Tires. All fluids changed. And so on--but today was a big step forward. Hooray for me etc etc.

It really feels good to take a non-working car and make it usable again. Hopefully I've learned enough to make getting my '86 running an easier task...

Ed

Looking good, those are fun cars. I had a 78 with both tops, I always like running with the top down. Nice memories

I had the 5 speed in mine. If I remember correctly I had a small switch on the stick shift I had to push when I wanted to go into 5th. I'm not sure about that, it's been 20+ years since I owned it.

I always had problems with the altenator on mine as well. Went out on me 3 times in one year back in 79-80

quote Originally posted by FieroGT87: I had the 5 speed in mine. If I remember correctly I had a small switch on the stick shift I had to push when I wanted to go into 5th.

That would be 4-speed with electro/hydraulic overdrive, if I recall correctly.

There was an article in Grass Roots Motorsports about a guy who put a Volvo turbo 4 cylinder in an MGB. Apparently fit in fairly easily and went like crazy. And of course it's darn near impossible to kill a Volvo.

One of the things B/L did in the '70s to comply with US crash safety regs (aside from the rubber nose and tail) was to raise the suspension. This allowed them to cheaply conform to US bumper height regs so that they could continue to sell this wildly popular car in the USA for a few more years.
Converting to pre 72 suspension will help crash AVOIDANCE and really raise the grin factor by improving the handling.
Buick V6 swaps were fairly common "back in the day".
I am usually the one arguing to leave emission controls alone (on a Fiero) but the MG will be better in every way (except emissions) if you swap an earlier twin carb intake setup, along with the camshaft, IMO.

BTW, unless the car has a positive ground electrical system (as many Brit cars did), you could swap a more reliable alternator, IE Ford, GM, by adding a few washers here and there. I did it on a couple of Fiats I owned back in the '70s and never had a problem. Or maybe an aftermarket "one wire" alternator?.

Good luck!

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 05-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by FieroSTETZ: mmm grand national swap :P there was a guy that put the 3.8 turbo into an opel gt

Yeah, I watched him run before! I even planned to do a similar swap myself, but the funding has never really been there.

My friends dad has a cherry red 77 MGB. I raced him once in my Fiero....one of my 1st kills :P He red-lines in that thing at like 60MPH. Is that about right? He'd just had the motor fully rebuilt too....hmmmm..... -Ben

------------------
Fiero: Get in, sit down, shut up, hold on!!
"We're all born with expirations dates: nothing lasts forever...." MGS2 -Solidous
"If Ambercrombie and Fitch decided that 'Eating wasn't cool', 1/2 of the US population would be dead in a matter of weeks...." -Ally

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: Yeah, I watched him run before! I even planned to do a similar swap myself, but the funding has never really been there. My friends dad has a cherry red 77 MGB. I raced him once in my Fiero....one of my 1st kills :P He red-lines in that thing at like 60MPH. Is that about right? He'd just had the motor fully rebuilt too....hmmmm..... -Ben

In fourth gear, every 1,000 RPM is 18 MPH, so you do 54 mph at 3,000 RPM. Or 63 MPH at 3,500, or 72 at 4,000... you see? Redline is around 5,500 or so IIRC, so that would work out to a top speed of 99 MPH...assuming the engine has enough oomph to get it there, which I highly doubt. Like I said above, the '77 goes 0-60 in 17 seconds, which won't even beat a Suzuki Samurai much less a 4-cyl Fiero.... But they do handle nice, they're stylish, and fun.

The overdrive was actually a good idea, but my Dad's car doesn't have one. Basically it seems to me that the overdrive essentially gives the car, effectively, an 8-speed transmission if you use it right.

I don't recall which year they switched to negative ground, but I know it was before 1977. Dad's car is negative ground.

I thought about going to a one-wire conversion but the last thing I want to do is get involved with modifying British wiring. Bad enough that the thing has Lucas electrics in it....

Ed

quote Originally posted by edhering: Ed

That pic is pretty nice. I really loke the look of the MGB.
If you have one in prefect shape, they are a verry classy sporty car.
Kind of like its big bro next to it in your pic.

That volvo turbo sounds so sick.
I think a newer saab turbo would be better though.
Pure insane turbo boost and their engines are so piss ass rev happy.

Awww Ed!! Don't let that lucas elecrtrical thing sit too close to your Fiero!!! You'll wake up one morning and find a dynamo where your alt used to be.

If you can lay your hands on a Weber DGV 32/36 carb, I think you'll be happier with that one. IF it will clear the 'bonnet'.

Looks like they switched to negative ground in the late 1960s, at least in the MGB.

Maryjane: believe me, I'd love nothing more than to take that stupid Zenith-Stromberg hunk of crap and throw it as far as I could. Problem is, the parts needed to make a Weber fit an MGB would cost nearly $1,000, and since it's not my car I'm not going to spend that kind of money. If it were my car, actually, I would go get a 2.3 4-cyl out of a '79 Mustang and mount that in the car with a Ford transmission. You can do a lot of neat things with those motors, and right out of the boneyard they're more powerful than any of the MGB 4-cyl variants.

Waiting until Tuesday for parts; more bulletins as conditions warrant.

Ed

quote Originally posted by edhering: Looks like they switched to negative ground in the late 1960s, at least in the MGB. Maryjane: believe me, I'd love nothing more than to take that stupid Zenith-Stromberg hunk of crap and throw it as far as I could. Problem is, the parts needed to make a Weber fit an MGB would cost nearly $1,000, and since it's not my car I'm not going to spend that kind of money. If it were my car, actually, I would go get a 2.3 4-cyl out of a '79 Mustang and mount that in the car with a Ford transmission. You can do a lot of neat things with those motors, and right out of the boneyard they're more powerful than any of the MGB 4-cyl variants. Waiting until Tuesday for parts; more bulletins as conditions warrant. Ed

Cmon.. If you're gonna do that, you just might as well squeeze a 5.0 in there.

5.0? I have this vision of an MGB which can never launch from a red light without leaving dense white smoke behind it...

Seriously, I know people have done it. The engine bay's big enough that you can just get sick with the thing. But that's not what I'd want from that car; I want something nimble and reasonably quick without getting nuts, and a more modern, American 4-cyl would fit the bill nicely. The 4-cyl in the MGB was designed in the '50s and existed in the car without much modification from 1962 through 1980. The only real modification was that they switched from a three-main crank to a five-main crank, and as the years went on they slowly added emissions BS to the thing which choked off what little power the thing made in the first place.

As far as I know, there are kits to install Ford and Buick engines, and probably SBCs as well. For years MG sold a fastback version of the MGB--the GT--with a V8 in it. The front wheels are very far forward so no matter what you stuff under the hood, it'll be behind the front wheels, but I have no idea how that effects handling. I do know that a decent aluminum V8 probably would not appreciably affect the handling of the car.

But as I said, going with the monster engine just wouldn't suit me. If I could get an engine in that car which would allow it to accelerate just as fast as my ESCORT does, I would be very happy with its performance...

Oh well.

Ed

True, I always wanted one of those cars just for the 2 seat, top open vibe.. So why a mustang 4-banger? Did you say you were getting a kit, or?

I have loved MG's for a long time.
The guy that lived behind us had 2 and would race them somewhere.
I was young didn’t get along with him at the time (hot wife)
Now I wish I had not missed that opportunity. (to learn about cars not the wife)
My uncle had and MG midget that was pretty cool but too small for me.
Plus it was plagued with mechanical problems.
There is one down the street rotting in a field, I want to go see what they want for it but I am also scared of just moving it from one resting place to another.
Thanks for sharing keep posting maybe after you start driving it you will motivate me to go look at the one down the street.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 05-31-2004).]

Ed, That Weber carb should fit that manifold ok. It may or may not interfere with closing the hood. I can't remember the yr of the one I had, and made that mod to. I'd love to have another one, but just don't have the room for it.

Maryjane--on the '77? That's strange. All I've seen are kits that cost $$$ and require replacing both the intake and exhaust manifolds on the car. I'm going to look into this--thank you and + if I haven't given you one already. As for closing the hood, to heck with it--I'll go find a hood in a boneyard or something and modify it to fit.

Jake:
The neat thing about the MGB's is that there are actually new body tubs available, like there are with Jeeps. IIRC they can be had for around $5,000, and then all you have to do is take a donor car and remove everything from it and bolt it onto the tub. As for "plagued with mechanical problems" that is the nature of the beast. As I said above the cars use old, eh, "proven" technology. Looking thru the owner's manual I see that the vacuum servo for the braking system has a filter which must be periodically replaced . The valve lash must be periodically adjusted because the car uses solid lifters. The rear brakes do not self-adjust. (Kind of like a fiero! heh except that MGBs weren't designed to have self-adjusting brakes; you have to use a wrench to adjust them manually.)

JohnnyK: No, I'm not getting a kit. It's not my car, it's my Dad's, and he wants to keep it as close to stock as possible. Really, I don't blame him--this car has only 36,000 on it. But if it were up to me I would use a Ford 4-cyl because IIRC the kits to mount Ford drivetrains are the most common. I'd just make sure all the mods were reversible, is all, and keep all the "spares", so I could restore the car to all-original if I ever decided to do that. The reason I'd want to use a 4-cyl engine is twofold. First off, with the exception of the GT variant, MGBs never had any more cylinders than that. Second, the weight and balance of the car would not significantly change. Third, the OE engine makes like 55 horsepower, and not much torque, and a Ford 2.3 would easily beat that. And if it turned out not to be enough, the 2.3 turbocharges VERY easily and there's a huge aftermarket for it.

* * *

I'm going to keep updates coming, don't worry! Right now this is my "fixer" car because my '86 is still in Iowa (and will be until I can afford to rent a storage unit for all the junk still in our garage, and a tow dolly to haul the car back here). I'm actually learning a lot about the process of making an old, non-running car usable again, and I think the insights might be useful to others like me who have bought running cars and never had to do this kind of thing before.

& besides all that it's fun.

Ed

Today I got to take the car for a drive!

I rebuilt the rear wheel brake cyls and it turned out the pads were just dirty, not ruined, so I cleaned them and put them back on, figuring they'd be "good enough" until the new ones get here. Bled the brakes, got out the camcorder, and Dad and I took 'er for a spin!

We stayed in the neighborhood (we'd planned to) and went around one block, then went to go around another...and then it choked and died.

We had to push it most of the way home. It would run but once I tried to let the clutch out, it was like someone just pulled the plug--it would die. Just die, not choke, not cough, just RRRrrrrrrr clunk.

Me:

So I checked some things. It was low on coolant, so I topped it up; then it started and ran fine. I let it sit and idle, and it got hot enough to turn the fans on, and still had enough power to move up the driveway. Okay, so I tried it again on the street.

I got a block down and it did the same damn thing! It was like the stupid thing was getting homesick or something.

So I began trying to figure out what it could be. The ignition? No, unless the ignition box was overheating or something.... There's still water dripping on the distributor from the heater valve...no, it can't be that, because on the second run I had a bag tied around it--no water on the dist. this time. No, this was actling like some kind of fuel starvation problem....

Then Dad suggested I check the fuel filter.

AAAH!

Then he wanted to run the fuel pump to see if the fuel supply would clear up after a bit.

This was the fourth jar's worth:

Well, it makes sense. After sitting for ten years, there's a bunch of crap inside the tank. Driving the car around sloshed the gasoline around, which dislodged the crap, and hence...well, the pics are proof enough for me. SO, the next project will be cleaning out the fuel tank!

Ed

[This message has been edited by edhering (edited 06-01-2004).]

Looks kinda like rusty water.

As bad as that looks, I bet you could still get $2.25 a gallon for it on Ebay.

Well well well! I am pleased to report that today I removed the fuel tank, cleaned it, put it back in, and put in fresh gas. The car started and ran.

Between my Dad and me, we put several fresh miles on the car. It was the furthest it had been driven since 1993. And this time, no coughing, no sputtering, no dying. There was a little bit of hesitation and choking on the first lap around the neighborhood--residual water working its way out of the fuel system I'd wager--but otherwise, she ran fine.

Later I will post a pic of what I got OUT of the fuel tank... ...suffice it to say it was not pretty, and there was enough of it to fill a peanut butter jar about 1/5 full. There was actually more than that; the jar contains what I bothered to save. When I first dumped gas from the tank, it looked like home-made tomato juice sitting in the drain pan. Or maybe a tequila sunrise without enough grenadine in it...

Anyway, so the car is now about 85% done. I still have to do:
1) front motor mounts
2) water control valve
3) chase electrical system gremlins
4) tires
5) thorough clean and detail
6) get me some chicks! Oh wait, is this thing still on? Well son of a bit---

Ed

UPDATE

Friday I drove the car more than 24 miles without a problem. I adjusted the idle a bit and changed the water control valve.

Changing that valve was a 40-minute project with a 1-hour intermission. I drained all the antifreeze from the car, even to removing the rear drain plug from the engine...and when it was time to put the antifreeze back in, I could not find the plug.

SO me, my Dad, and a friend of mine all did a FOD walkdown of the driveway trying to find that plug, to no avail, so I ended up going to the hardware store to buy something that would fit. The replacement screwed in without any trouble, and as I was trying to find a clean funnel to refill the radiator my Dad asked, "What is this?"

The f-ing plug was sitting on top of the washer fluid tank. All three of us had examined every inch of that engine compartment trying to find that stupid plug, and it was sitting right on top of the washer fluid tank. If the damn thing had had a tongue it would have been sticking it out at us

SO, I removed the replacement plug and put the proper one back in, filled the radiator and engine, and let her idle. I have to say that one good thing about that car is that once you've filled the radiator, the engine has all the coolant it needs. I topped up the overflow tank once the engine came up to operating temperature and all was well.

Saturday I set out to replace the motor mounts, particularly the bad one on the R side. Well, after much pain and frustration (I suspect that the British are all double-jointed) I got the old mount out, and discovered that the metal plate which the rubber mount is bolted to is broken. So, right now, a block of wood is holding up the engine on that side while we wait for business hours on Monday to get it welded....

Hopefully the mounts will be replaced Monday afternoon, then. And then I'm going to try my hand at tuning the carb.

The simple test for the mixture in an MGB is to try lifting the piston in the dashpot. If the idle rises, it's too rich. If the engine stumbles, it's too lean. I did that test; the engine is in fact running lean. So once I'm done with the motor mounts, the carb is next, along with the other components of a typical tune-up.

Besides that, I have to do a complete grease job, including re-packing the bearings.

So, more later!

Ed