http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20031115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter

It seems after the takeover and occupation we would hear of one or two, but now it's in chunks of 12 and 15, some 30 for the Italians. In another thread we discussed the comparison of Iraq to Viet Nam. Some people argued it couldn't be a Viet Nam, as the numbers of dead Americans don't compare. The other night on the national news I saw their comparison putting American deaths at 397 after 7 months as compared to Viet Nam from 1962 to 1964 where there were 394 after 2 years, which accelerates the number of casualties in this war. Most wars are apples/oranges to compare, but what really makes this war a waste is that it's over many things, but largely religion, and that even if we subjugate all Arabs/Muslims we will never be done with Muslim-based terrorism until we divorce ourselves with that region.

Whatever this war is comparable to, how many more young GI's need to die for this cause? I've had enough; thanks Bushy and daddy's agenda that he failed to accomplish.

Speaking of that, a way that Viet Nam is comparable is that LBJ supposedly kept the war going to support his corporate buddies at the expense of the lives of GI's, and Bushy has primarily his contributors doing the rebuilding work over there. It's another case of young lives for corporate greed; I've seen this movie before.

Scary when you think about it. And where is the democracy that we allegedly went to "preserve"?

I was thinking the same thing this morning when I heard about the Italians.

My fear is that it will go exactly like Vietnam. All these people will die and finally in the only way to save face, people will pull out and let the Iraqis fight it out.

All of the books that have been written about the past, and we continue to repeat it. The biggest lesson is that you can not impose your values and your way of life on others.

In case you missed my other post..
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/018184.html

To answer your question, like the President said "Until the job is done"

And as far as imposing our will/lifestyle on them.. think the only things we really want is A. A stable democratic based government (nore more despots throwing ppl into wood chippers)
B. A promise to not fund/support/back/offer training and aid to terrorists.

But on the other hand I also like the Dem's "Mcarthy" idea of just cutting our losses and running out so we can watch the place go up in flames as rival factions battle it out..

I don't see why it is taking so long to set up a gov't. I understand that people who stand up to take part in the "new gov't" are automatically huge targets, but doesn't anyone have enough courage to do it anyway for the good of their country?

quote Originally posted by stimpy: Scary when you think about it. And where is the democracy that we allegedly went to "preserve"?

Emphasis on, "allegedly." I agree...

Yep we are imperialist! We took over Germany and Japan during WWII. Oh I forgot they make their own decisions now. And lets not forget about the freedom that the eastern Europeans now enjoy because of our influence. We are not imperialist we bring freedom to people that helps the whole world. Yeah people have died and I pray that their souls now rest in eternal peace. This fight was brought on us remember that.

"We are appalled that they don't allow Christianity over there..ect"

What?!?! I'll break this down into easy to understand statements.
Dictator BAD.. throw ppl in woodchippers and likes to use mustard gas on ppl when they whine about stupid stuff like rights and food.
Current plan: Select existing leaders in the community and with their input set up a represenative gov't so all sides can be heard. (Hey just like here on the forum I have a say and so do you.. and neither one of us has to worry about being shot in the head by Cliff!)

"Well then let's stop swapping spit with the Saudis"

Agreed.. we deff need to lean a bit heavier on them to keeps their kids in check.

"Or how about the UN's idea of cautiously entering this endeavor"

Umm, they kinda "cautiously" watched this idiot for 12yrs. And yes banned weapons were/have been found since the invasion. WMD little harder to find but a lot of evidence that he knew how to and could produce bio weapons.. Did you really want him to get his paws on a nuke?

"400 dead ect". (actually more but lets not quibble) What is an acceptable amount? Are you not willing to defend your country or does it have to be something obvious like umm, I don't know.. 3000+ dead in a terrorist attack to get your dander up?

Talking points:
1. Bush is not Hitler, nor a Nazi (libs are not being rounded up and gassed)
2. We're not there for their oil, might be a byproduct that we can trade with them afterward but if we really wanted it we would make Basra a US territory and that aint gonna happen.
3. Iraq was in bed with terrorists, just because they weren't as stupid as Lybia and Afganistan by flaunting it doesn't make is less so.
4. Yes, this may very well be an object lesson to the rest of the world. Clean your house! or we will clean it for you!

edited because I'm distracted by this silly work stuff.

[This message has been edited by Uaana (edited 11-15-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Roylmohr: This fight was brought on us remember that.

That WWII fight was another story. Dont confuse a real reason for going to war with these past pre-empt invasions.

They used the communism card for vietnam and propped up dictators in Africa and S. America as well.

They are now using the terrorism card to fleece the country and commonwealth.
Billions have exchanged hands and you refuse to see that part.

Please georgey protect us from them handfula' dangnabbit evil doer terrorists and goat herders w/ boxcutters.
Yes please Mr. president, take all our money sir, & give it to your Republican constituents & campaign supporters-
Ever wonder why this President just raised record levels of cash this past week?

Usually I dont get pissed off-but when I went to a concert downtown here in Houston this past week I saw literally hundreds of homeless and vagrants running amuck in our city streets. Let us worry about them 1st.

Our oil prices arent going to go down w/ Iraq. Those who own that damned market own the world. All economies revolve around it. Its why we've occuppied thier lands and its 1 reason they hate the U.S.

The price of empire? Try over 4k+ dead from Afghanistan & Iraq. Many Canadian English and American soldiers lost and that damned reporter that got squished by a tank

[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 11-15-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Uaana: To answer your question, like the President said "Until the job is done"

Apparently our otherwise intellectually challenged excuse for a president has the ability to see into the future; from what I've been reading on fox and cnn we're cutting in running by next June, presumably in time to affect public opinion before the presidential election.

Until the job is done. Yeah. Right. No WMD, attempt after laughable attempt (including the latest attempt btw) to link iraq with terrorism, calling iraq a front on the war on terrorism...

..but our job is done next june. What a joke.

-Jeff

The price of true freedom is always a high price to be paid, wether it be one life or thousands.

quote Originally posted by JeffMN: Apparently our otherwise intellectually challenged excuse for a president has the ability to see into the future; from what I've been reading on fox and cnn we're cutting in running by next June, presumably in time to affect public opinion before the presidential election. Until the job is done. Yeah. Right. No WMD, attempt after laughable attempt (including the latest attempt btw) to link iraq with terrorism, calling iraq a front on the war on terrorism... ..but our job is done next june. What a joke. -Jeff

They didn't say anything about our military being out by June, in fact they said the opposite... that we would still be there. Anti-bushites please take note so I don't have to listen to you whine about Bush promising we would be out by now next July.

Regardless of whether or not any evidence that would hold up in court can be found between Iraq and al-queda, to think Saddam would not help them any way he could is extremely naive. No, they aren't best buddies, but there is a definite "enemy of my enemy" motive there.

Jeff,

Well make up your bloody minds.. jeesh.

One day it's we have to pull out right now!
Then, when a time table is set for our exit you btch that we're cutting and running..

This upcoming election is going to be a ball to watch.
Gas prices have gone down, most economic indicators are up including the ever popular "Consumer confidence", no terrorist attacks on US soil or against a US embassy in over 2yrs, Exit strategy in place for Iraq. Energy policy in place without drilling in Anwar,

so what will the Dem's talking points be? Bush is stupid and a nazi?

BTW I hope nobody is taking any of this too personally. I enjoy a good debate and an opposing point of view and you guys actually do respond with a real response unlike the clowns over at democraticunderground.. they just delete and block anyone who disagrees with what they say.

We can't pull out and we can't keep having our troops killed off over there. The short answer is we can't win this war without resorting to Iraqi level. Which we won't do because we have higher standards. So we are screwed.

If we pack up our bags and leave, the muslims over there will scream Allah gave them victory over the devil and will bring the fight here. If we stay we will be fighting another vietnam. Middle Eastern Islam is radical islam and their only goal is an islamic world. There is nothing we could have done to prevent this and there is nothing we can do to stop this.

quote Originally posted by dennis_6: We can't pull out and we can't keep having our troops killed off over there. The short answer is we can't win this war without resorting to Iraqi level. Which we won't do because we have higher standards. So we are screwed. If we pack up our bags and leave, the muslims over there will scream Allah gave them victory over the devil and will bring the fight here. If we stay we will be fighting another vietnam. Middle Eastern Islam is radical islam and their only goal is an islamic world. There is nothing we could have done to prevent this and there is nothing we can do to stop this.

you are 110% percent right

------------------

Mal and dennis,
I think what you are missing are the positive stories that are coming out of Iraq. For the most part Iraqis just want to live their lives in peace just like everyone else on this planet.
The little published reports are that most of these bombers/jihad fighers are coming from everywhere else. Yesterday there was a report of islamic clerics giving their blessings to the people from London who wanted to travel to Iraq to wage jihad.
So in a way it might be a good idea to stay, kind of like a magnet draw all the idiots in to their death or detained when they try and cross the border instead of having them trying to sneak into the US to wage jihad.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: so what will the Dem's talking points be? Bush is stupid and a nazi?

Some off the cuff sticking points:

1.Cabinet involved w/ cronyism and several conflict of interests
2.Worst economy in over 50 yrs
3.Extreme spending and defecits
4.repeal of dollar valuation act
5.No Osama nor Saddam (which means they can get more $$$ to hunt)
6.Gave DoD the job of spending our money on these wars. The DoD has basically blank checks for anything or anyone. An Afgahn warlord was payed 70 million to help U.S. Everyone knows that any biz that has ever won contracts w/ our govt has always overcharged tenfold.
7. Tax cut for super rich as a stimulus plan
8. Pre-empt war troops have potential of occupying up to 5 yrs or more in Iraq w/ costs upwards of trillions of dollars.

Keep telling yourselves that these soldiers are fighting for freedom if it helps your conscience. Only time can tell what really will come of it. Using Blue helmets (U.N. peacekeepers) and other nation money could drastically reduce worlwide hatred.

If anyone saw tonights S&L skit w/ Hammond as Dubbya it was epic. Even talked about Offshore Geneva accounts from this war. Its something most people dont think about- how this govt/insiders operate. Ive pointed this out many times in my debates. Some may actually believe most of this $$$ is going to 18 yr olds on the frontline & local banks

[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 11-16-2003).]

At the same time some countries want to make it a christian world, so whats the point?

It all comes down to who thinks who's god is better.

Yeah, you might have to think about that whole understanding thing. Both sides. I don't see Islamic countries reaching out on that whole understanding branch either.

This mess has been brewing ever since the end of WWI. Woodrow Wilson decided to rewrite the map. Except, he didn't have a clue what he wanted to happen. Funny thing is, no one has a clue now either.

My answer is to make religion something you do at home and politics what you do to live together. Yeah, I already know, its not a popular sentiment amongst Fiero owners. What can i say, I'm an idealist.

My solution was also to not go in there in the first place.

quote Originally posted by Roylmohr: .

"Yep we are imperialist! We took over Germany and Japan during WWII. Oh I forgot they make their own decisions now."

Imperialism is not the wartime defending of a nation, it is:

1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

So in plain English imperialism is realized when countries go around and takeover and/or control by force other nations, such as what Japan did after WWI up to WWII when we straightened out their attitude. Now we are being imperialists by our intrusions into other countries and by the placement of military bases all around the world. The most predominant example of imperialism is Japan right before WWII, as they sucked up most of the South Pacific. They were in the process of beating Hawaii, an American territory at that time, out of our hands when we shortly thereafter gave them a couple of wakeup calls. 3 days after Pearl Harbor was the taking of Guam from America as a territory. Japan is the best example of Imperialism that I can think of, but what we're doing now can be classified as Imperialism.

"And lets not forget about the freedom that the eastern Europeans now enjoy because of our influence."

What influence; WWII and the ass kicking of Germany and Italy, or the Cold War? WWII, what can I say - the greatest generation. The Cold War; what a joke, these nations were going to fall regardless of what happened with our military.

"We are not imperialist we bring freedom to people that helps the whole world."

Being Imperialists and establishing freedom to the whole world are different animals. What America has done since WWII is to use our great efforts in WWII as a reason to further being the police of the world. So what you are saying is that in order to free people you must intrude. Sometimes, but not generally/always. When you forcibly take countries and then establish ethnocentric rules, that removes us from being peacekeepers and makes us Imperialists.

"Yeah people have died and I pray that their souls now rest in eternal peace. This fight was brought on us remember that."

Brought on us? The war between the Anglos and Arabs has been going for at least 500 years, so this isn't a Pearl Harbor in that respect. Not to mention the establishment of Israel in 1948 upping the ante, so this war isn't the fault of JW Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr, or any one President; it's been in the mix for decades/centuries. Chicken or egg? Did we start it or did they? Does it matter? War and hate breeds war and hate. As long as we perpetuate war we will be active players and therefore subject to the deaths associated with war.

And the dems further talking points.

We will raise taxes on the rich working stiffs to give more welfare benefits.

We will use your tax dollars to pay of extortion artists like N Korea.

PS.. one more for us evil conservatives.. we just passed a medicare increase with increased drug coverage

BTW I do love the Dems plan of non-interference.. screw the dictators they're just killing their own ppl and sponsering terrorists.. lets invite more of them like Arafat to the white house!

Hmm guess this means that if I threaten to kill your whole family unless you give me your Fiero and home entertainment center and tell you to stop supporting those evil policemen you won't do anything unless all 4000+ members of the forum decide that I really don't deserve your fiero? But while your getting a consensus I can buy all the guns I want and can continue to make pipe bombs as well.. and just for good measure I'll pop off a cousin and uncle just to show my peaceful intent.

Bill Clinton came closer to peace in Isreal than others.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: PS the above was just an illustration and in no way means I endorse or plan on hurting/maiming/killing or stealing from any other board members.

"Hmm guess this means that if I threaten to kill your whole family unless you give me your Fiero and home entertainment center and tell you to stop supporting those evil policemen you won't do anything unless all 4000+ members of the forum decide that I really don't deserve your fiero? But while your getting a consensus I can buy all the guns I want and can continue to make pipe bombs as well.. and just for good measure I'll pop off a cousin and uncle just to show my peaceful intent."

Don't worry, it's so convoluted that no prosecutor could make any sense of it to even file charges. Three words: punctuation, punctuation, punctuation.

What is the alternative for say the year 2004 if the US did nothing to stop terrorism?

6 or 7 9/11 type attacks?

4 or 5 waves of an incidious plague

50 or so suicide bombs set off in shopping malls across the us?

What would you rather give up?
A few soldiers or a shakey sense of security when you go shopping today and next year?

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: What is the alternative for say the year 2004 if the US did nothing to stop terrorism? 6 or 7 9/11 type attacks? 4 or 5 waves of an incidious plague 50 or so suicide bombs set off in shopping malls across the us? What would you rather give up? A few soldiers or a shakey sense of security when you go shopping today and next year?

Well, what would have happened if we did/didn't do X, Y, or Z is pure speculation on both of our parts. To support my position I would ask how many attacks from militant Arabs there were before 1948. If we never engaged Israel would we be strangers to that region? If they didn't possess one of the largest oil reserves would we be strangers to that region? We need to actually understand the truth behind our former and current involvement in that region before we can intelligently speculate.

The religious battle has been going on for 500+ years and the possibility that the world's oil could run out wasn't an issue in 1948, so I feel we pulled out of WWII with the, "Big Brother" mentality coupled with the desire to help our Jesus-based brothers over there. Now, since we are aware that in time oil will be a scarcity, we may currently be there in part for that reason too. So we need to understand our (US) intent/motive for being there before we can really speculate, and our government lies to us for our own good so we may never really know.

Now, to look at the opposite side of the coin we need to understand why the Arabs/Muslims are attacking us in the US since the early 90's. Are they branching out from screwing with Europe, or are they sick of our intrusions? It's easy to say that they are just expanding their territory of terrorism and that may be true, but I believe it's not that arbitrary. I believe they are sick of our intervention and they made it personal by bombing the WTC in the early 90's, attacked military installations overseas, and finally the WTC's in 2001. Are they just having recreational fun, or are they drawing the proverbial line in the sand that they would respect if we did? To conjecture and lay it as an absolute truth is idiotic on anyone's part. We will never know what could work until we try many options. If we pulled back from that region and waited to see how they reacted and they attacked again in Pearl Harbor fashion, the UN would back us and help us do anything we wanted. But since we are often the world's instigators the world realizes we are not victims but players in a deadly game.

No one ever addresses this point: Sweden has freedom and stays neutral, so is it necessary to be warmongers to obtain security, especially when we are currently not secure? It seems the more militant we get, the less safe and secure we are.

no offense intended, but how do you guys find the energy and sense of moral rightness to quibble endlessly about this stuff? especially since our opinions dont matter a bit?

quote Originally posted by 84Bill:

"It's funny you should "cry" about a few soldiers dieing in battle when over 1000 people die everyday on the highways."

Oh silly me, to, "cry" about a few (over 400) dead soldiers, which translates to probably 1200 somber homes this Christmas (maybe they can send Christmas cards to Bushy's family). I refuse to minimize or mitigate our loss.

1,000 people die every day on the freeways? Try about 115 in America. You shouldn't revise easily accessible data to support your point.

"I guess it depends on your perspective, some die protecting freedom and some while enjoying it."

6 of 1; 1/2 dozen of the other. Your laze faire attitude about 400+ dead soldiers is alarming. As for your dichotomy of some enjoy vs. some die for freedom is limited. Some sacrifice and enjoy, some sacrifice and never enjoy, and shades in-between. But the rich sending young people to die for their corporate profits is tantamount to cloning a human for parts to use as you age. The rich have been exploiting young people for centuries, the sad event after Viet Nam is that they forgot to dub the 55,000 dead and all the live Viet Nam GI's as hero's until 20 years later. Who was it that did that? Oh yea, that draft-dodger, as well as he made some reparations and an apology for Japanese-American internment. These wars are generally (WWII excepted)over other than necessity; usually politics or religion.

"The times have dictated we "intervine" and try to prevent another 9/11 or worse from happening on our turf."

There ya go, blame it on, "The times" and ignore our intrusions into their religious protocol, which is very sacred to them.

"What price are you willing to pay to say... hop on an airplane and become an unwilling bomb that flies into a building somewhere?"

The price...hmmm, how about saying screw Jebus, his birthplace, and the merry little band of freaks that legislate worldwide war as a gesture of worship and sacrifice to enjoy freedom and peace?

"Does that idea sound okay to you? Sure, I agree there is no such thing as 100% security but having soldiers "over there" serves as a distraction so that we "over here" can drive to our deaths in realitive security everyday."

Sure, screwing Jebus' theology sounds great. 400 lives a distraction? So that's at the rate of about 700 per year to distract; I wonder how the families of those dead distractions would feel about your comment? I wonder how many families of the deceased think it's all worth what we're doing?

"I know it does not make much sense but there really is no better way to explain what "freedom" is."

I have a better one, how about Scandinavian conflict philosophy. How many wars has Sweden been engaged in? How much of their GNP do they redistribute to fund military actions? Oh, so redistribution works for the military and their corporate contractors too, huh? Welfare mongers.

Ed, I couldn't say this any better. Thank you for championing the "other" side.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back:

Ed, last time I checked the military was voluntary. No one demanded they join.
What is the military to you? Is it a regimented form of welfare? Sign up and get free stuff, free training, free money for collage, free food?
I believe if you sign up you know full well you may be called to active duty and "fight the good fight", maybe die. but hey that wont happen to me will it Ed.
Well I guess that theory went out the window for 400 or so soldiers not to mention the ones maimed. What do you want me to do? drive the country and thank each family individually? Screw that! I'll just post my flag out front, hows that sound?

Last time I checked I can "blame" anyone or anything I want to blame. I am "free" to do that Ed. Apparently you are too.

So what is your proposal Ed? We pull out of Iraq, Then what? Will all the problems in the world go away? The muslim will let me go in peace? HA!! don't be a fool, we have to fight because there are those in the world that will not leave US alone. You want me to be a good christian and turn the other cheak? Screw that! mess with me and I'll mess back. I'm not bound by some book written by a bunch of people with sun scorched brains. I'm not that much of a lemming.

You complain about 400 lives yet you have no solution for MY protection. I want a solution. There has not been an attack in the U.S. since we started hunting for terrorist leaders, I'm happy about that fact. You may argue that there "may not" have been one anyway but as it stands the fact is undenyable.

You compare this to Vietnam? LOL ok thats a good one! Sounds like you are a bit paranoid Ed. Your attention span can reach back to the Viernam era but not to September 11th. Sounds like short term memory loss.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-16-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: Ed, I couldn't say this any better. Thank you for championing the "other" side.

Hey man, we all seem to hold our own and contibute to the, "other side." It's a shame we are the monority opinion, that is until we end up with a full-blown Viet Nam, then those silly liberals protest and quash the false consciousness. But at what price? Another 55,000 American troops and other counties losses as well? Ok, so what if it's only half that; are we to feel satisfied?

What was the cost for you to have the "minority" opinion, ever stop and think about that? You may be a minority but your opinion rings just as loud and clear as mine or anyone elses. Be glad you can express your "minority opinion" because in some other countries you could quite possibly be dead already for such insolent comments and opinions.

Let's see the day is almost over and the highway death toll according to Ed is roughly 79, yeah its a guess but I'm sure it's not that far off.

We lost another in Iraq today, if you wish to include the helecopter colision then add 17 more to that.

79 Persuing their freedoms
18 Protecting it.

I think it is safe to say more people die taking advantage of their freedom than those who die protecting it.
Wonder how those 197 or so people (family members not including friends) feel about that? Are they going to boycot car manufacturers and protest against the auto industry for allow such carnage to happen at the expence of their loved ones?

Your arguement has the same substance. My "laze faire attitude" includes the carnage on US highways, thats why I wear a seatbelt and try to anticipate what is going to happen while I drive my car.

If you can't look down the road and see what could happen then I sugguest you stay in your nice safe home and hope the "muslim extriemist" passes by your door and doesn't see you cowering while he pumps anthrax into the air.

418 people have given up their lives so far to prevent it from happening. I don't take that very lightly, I appriciate their sacrefices.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-16-2003).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: If you can't look down the road and see what could happen then I sugguest you stay in your nice safe home and hope the "muslim extriemist" passes by your door and doesn't see you cowering while he pumps anthrax into the air. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

Thats paranoia not patriotism

That Anthrax scare(most likely) came from inside the U.S. AND its receipients like Daschle (archenemy of Dubbya) & media seems to give motive from an extremist right winger approach-not your local rock thrower

Think before ya plink

84: Until I see them occupying our lands they have a just cause for blowing up U.S. malls and killing our children-its called retaliation. Leave thier lands. Pay for thier oil. Thank them for it.

quote Originally posted by G-Nasty: Thats paranoia not patriotism That Anthrax scare(most likely) came from inside the U.S. AND its receipients like Daschle (archenemy of Dubbya) & media seems to give motive from an extremist right winger approach-not your local rock thrower 84: Until I see them occupying our lands they have a just cause for blowing up U.S. malls and killing our children-its called retaliation. Leave thier lands. Pay for thier oil. Thank them for it.

No I'm not paranoid, just cautious. I may be a bit juttery after seeing three jetliners being flow into buildings killing a few people....ummm.. ok yeah I'm paranoid, you got me there.

What lands have "we occupied" before 9/11? I don't think the 3000 people of 9/11 occupied ANY, unless you include desert storm, then yeah we occupied some turf and airspace. In any case I didn't occupy it my military did so go after them not me.

I suppose we could have let Saddam occupy Kuwait and drive the cost of fuel up into the stratusphere. You may argue that the "oil mongers" are responsible for desert storm and the current situation but in reality it is you and me. Our demand for affordable fuel so that we could freely roam around killing off about 115 people a day, heat our homes and produce electricity.
I can't imagine the whining and bitching that would follow a 750 dollar electric bill for last month.

Where does this fuel come from? Oh yeah it falls from the sky, just plug in the canopener and VIOLA! Silly me.

I don't recall a missile flying over the US. So yeah, it would be safe to assume the anthrax was released from within the US boarders or atleast mailed here anyway.

Retaliation? Ok I'm down with that, that's why I like seeing our boys kick ass over there right now. Let them taste my retaliation for killing inocent men women and children indiscrimanently on september 11th.

Go ahead people, shove the responsibility off onto the "rich oil barons". Don't bother to look at your own needs and DEMANDS for it. Afterall you are just one person right? How much fuel do you demand in a year? Some of you cannot see the forest through the trees, your short sightedness has caused this to happen.
Yet to sit there in your HEATED/AIRCONDITIOND HOME lounging comfey chair(REQUIRED ENERGY TO BUILD, THE FUEL USED TO GET THE WORKER BACK AND FORTH TO WORK) pushing buttons on your computer (THAT USES ENERGY NOT TO MENTION THE ENERGY NEEDED TO MANUFACTURE IT) and bitching up a storm about how "OTHERS" caused this war for their greed!?!?!?!?????

Yeah, your lips move but not a sound comes from your posh, pampered mouth. Unless you pack up and live off the land I sugguest you send your kids to MIT so he or she can come up with an alternative fuel for us to live on. That is IF they live long enough to do so. At the rate things are going 115 people dieing everyday is peanuts. If a man like Saddam or that other sand roach ever got control of the oil WE DEMAND there would be very little we could do. You could forget about "paying" and saying "thank you" because we would get nothing. Then when weakend by our own fuel depervation how would we stop them from slaughtering millions? Wave a magic wand and make it all go away?

Yeah we would pay alright.
NO THANKS!

Those who went through the "great blackout" know what it means to have energy. What is the percentage of fosile fuel used to create electricity Ed? 80%, 90%? Where does the majority of the fuel come from, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Russia (ukrane)?

Thanks for the vote

quote Think before ya plink

Yes, please do.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-16-2003).]

Read Eds reply to rohlmor. I dont see him 'on the ropes' 84- re-read it and you will begin to understand the implied theme.

I want to point out that in fact what we have here is the World Bank and our Fed using America as a front to acquire these oilfields. We all know that in part, we will retain control of oil to pay off some of the costs of these invasions but a majority will be tacked onto American taxpayers. Since no other real donations have been made by supporting nations-both Iraqis and Americans are getting screwed.

Much like cigarettes, gasoline is already subsidized to help pay states budgets. There will be plans on tacking 'war fees' in the future to pay for these wars.
84 in other words: Govt officials & oil execs getting together to find ways to increase revenue to pay for bullshit invasions & increase profits is wrong.

What Exxonmobile and Shell have done in equatorial Guinea, venezuala, Colombia, etc. and now doing in Afghanistan & Iraq is dead wrong.

The world is not a playground for the rich.
People are loosing out to corporate ways. Make war for terrority. Iraqis should continue fighting to retain thier country and its resources from those who plan & conspire to profit from it.

Like it or not- those terrorist(freedom fighters) actually have the moral high ground on this one.

Damn.

1st a crazed vain dicator followed by an installed puppet leader who hands over the oilfields. Some people have the worst luck...thier damned goats are prolly' sick too

[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 11-16-2003).]