Being ignorant doesn't mean you're stupid. Look it up.

I didn't say it was the same thing did I? Nope, I didn't.

It's not namecalling, it's pointing out a fact.

The most misused statement ever. You could call someone, you make up a some swear here, and say the same thing.

Calling Muslims Christians will get you killed (in Islamic nations, by the Muslims), so I think a little warning is fair.

Actually, I've talked to Palestinians and other Arabs about all this, one of whom is one of my best friends. So thanks for the warning, but I already knew that.

Anyways, next time, just ignore my post if you don't like it. (So you can ignore even the stuff I wrote here )

And now this discussion is over as it was just a lil joke. Tell me something more interesting though, how's your new car? Did some work on it yet? I saw the photoshop pic, looked good!

quote Originally posted by ray b: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Oreif: [b] OK, Many times you have you have brought up these "laws" that are being changed and are "unjust", Which laws exactly do you not agree with?

MOSTLY IF ASHCROFT IS FOR IT I AM AGAINTS IT
LIKE BUSH'S PAY THE AIRLINES NOT THE WORKERS
9-11 RELIFE LAWS OR TAX REFORM RICH GETS THE CUTS WORKERS GET SQUAT.
OR THE EFFORT TO STOP OREGON VOTER PASTED LAWS ABOUT POT FOR ILL,AND DOC ACCESTED LIFE ENDING FOR TERMINALLY ILL.
WHAT HAPPEN TO STATE'S RIGHTS THE KKK MAN FORGOT ABOUT THEM????? OR GOD FIRST LAWS WAY BEHIND????

[/B][/QUOTE]

Um, try this genius: there have been laws against killing (assisted suicide) for as long as there have been laws. Bush trying to CHANGE laws? I don't think so. He's trying to get back to where the laws USED to be before some of your favourite people changed them (like Clinton/Gore). Abortion laws? Yeah, it was Clinton who signed a law permitting late term abortion (you know, killing a fetus that has a head, hands, legs and brain). READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY RAY: HE IS NOT CHANGING LAWS, HE'S GOING BACK TO WHERE THEY WERE ORIGINALLY.

And what exactly does paying the airlines have to do with changing laws? No tax relief for middle class? Wrong again, genius. I work with a Texan, currently residing in Canada. He recently received about $380 bucks in relief (or about $600 bucks CDN). There are more reforms on the way in your country - you'll be thankful yet.

Triad :

quote Your problem is with the Catholic church, not with Christians. Those "millions" you quote were all CHRISTIANS, executed by the Catholic church, essentially for not worshipping the Pope.

So far I had no problem with what you've been saying but I don't know where you're getting these facts from. Yeah, a lot of crimes have been committed in the name of Christianity. BUT NOT BY CHRISTIANS - PEOPE WHO CLAIMED THEY WERE CHRISTIAN.

BTW, the Catholic church has been started by St. Peter. You know, Jesus's right hand man, one of the apostoles. Catholics are not Christian? Think again.

This is along the same parallel as blaiming all muslims for 9/11. If you're not blaiming all muslims for Sep. 11, then you can't blame all Catholics for the crimes of a few who only called themselves Catholic (once again, your numbers are wrong - I believe the Anglicans committed many crimes too - the leader wast the King and he did not hesitate to dispose of anyone who disobeyed). In any case, I could come up with some UNSUBSTANTIATED numbers too and say how many atheists/Muslims/etc. killed how many Christians. It's all bull.

Mach10 - Your position has changed slightly since the beginning of this discussion. Nice to see open-mindedness. Just one thing: don't confuse the old Testament with the new Testament. Hate (eye-for-an-eye, etc.) was a part of the old testament, not the new one.

A true Christian will follow Jesus's teachings to the T - there are only good teachings, no bad ones.

quote Originally posted by FieroMaster88: Wow..that's a lot of reading. You know what I think is funny....every person thinks their religion is the only one, and the others are wrong.

What I believe is the more likely scenario, is that people of all faiths will ultimately end up in Heaven, in their own way, if they have lived according to the rules and beliefs of their faiths. (This would not include people who twist things around to suit their purposes, like the terrorists. And some TV evangelists. )
There are so many different faiths that have been passed down for the generations, that different interpretations were *bound* to happen.
I don't think *anybody* who is sincere is going to go to hell just because somebody gave them an interpretation that didn't happen to be factually correct to the n'th degree. I believe it's all according to what's in your heart.

------------------
Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

the catholic church was started by St Peter?!

wow - he must have been really old

cause the catholic church didnt exist until the 3rd century, when the romans finally decided 'if you cant beat em - pull a hostile takeover'

This isn't worth continuing if you people are going to intentionally be stupid about it. Learn your beliefs if you're going to argue them.

I'm sorry I don't agree, I do believe you are engagin in name calling and justifying it by using the terms fact and truth. Having the facts or truth doesn't justify verbal abuse. I don't believe you have to engage in this type of behavior to make your point. Also, this is a public forum where anyone should be allowed to discuss issues or make a point, regardless of their knowledge. The one way people learn is through the exchange of ideas, attempting to stop those not as knowledgable about an issue is censorship.

[This message has been edited by ChopTop (edited 11-20-2001).]

As I said, this doesn't include people who twist things around to suit their own purposes.
I'm convinced that Hitler knew better. At least at first.
I don't know what set him off. Thankfully, I wasn't there.

I'm *not* claiming to know all the answers. Just my personal take on the whole situation. This topic is far too complex and heated to ever be resolved here, or anywhere on earth, for matter.
One thing is certain. Sooner or later we will *all* know. It's inevitable.

------------------
Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

Ken W.:

quote For it was St. Peter alone that was the "rock" upon which Christ established His Church (Matthew 16:18). And it was St. Peter alone that was given the task of "feeding" Christ's sheep (John 21:15-17). Scripture clearly points out St. Peter as Christ's representative on earth. Christ did not ask the other Eleven to feed and tend His sheep. If you read The Acts Of The Apostles, it is clear that St. Peter leads the Apostles. Therefore, since the Apostles are to be replaced as they die (Acts 1:20-26), then it follows that whoever succeed(s) St. Peter is leader of the Church

I found this on a website. This is all I've been able to find in the 10 minutes that I've had. If you're looking for a literal interpretation on how St. Peter was the official leader of the Catholic Church as we know it today, there may not be one. I probably stated this to literally (about Peter being the first leader). I'll find more info when I get a chance.

BTW Ken - so far you've had excellent points about virtually everything. Don't start a war with me through some sarcastic-a$$ remarks (like how long St. Peter lived). I really couldn't care less what Christian denomination you are (if any). I agree with you on issues and haven't said that my religion is more right than another one, so I would appreciate it if you could refrain from that.

If you have something to say about my religion bein wrong, or yours being right - take it to PM.

Rayday - I agree 100%.

quote Originally posted by Screwie: [b]...Tell me something more interesting though, how's your new car? Did some work on it yet? I saw the photoshop pic, looked good!

My car won't move. Once I got it home, it "creeps", even when the clutch is fully depressed. I'm not a big believer in "it worked 5 hours ago", so I'm certain Paul knew something was wrong. He just found the right dope at the right time...
ANYWAY, I have a steel pedal coming (supposed to be here last week) and I hope that fixes it. If not, it's either one of the clutch cylinders or the clutch itself. Either way, I'm out a LOT of money. I was going to put an Isuzu 5sp in it, and with that he replaces the clutch cylinders and the clutch ($1500 at Twin Lakes/ $700 for the clutch alone) so it would be repetitive to replace anything if I'm going to replace it all anyway.
VERY frustrated...to say the least.

I did do the door tabs, though...pearl white with metallic blue border...nice.

Whoo-hoo! Three pages and growing fast!

In my opinion, the makings of a yet another "Fierolisa" styled thread! Only this time FieroLisa didn't have to be involved as the main topic of discussion.

Come on guys, lets see if we can make 4 pages!

<in my Rob Schieder (sp?) voice> "COME ON! YOU CAN DO IT!"

Cliff will just love us all for this one. And yet another thread he can consider hanging on his wall! j/k Cliff!

And let us not forget the infamouse word now transcribed into the PFF Bible...BEEP!

ok, and here i go with opinions again, sit down, and strap in, this might be a long flight.

i only have a few things to adress, so this might not be AS long, but im hoping to convey my thoughts totaly in one post, negating future 500 line posts on this topic.

First opinion starts with facts. i belive in god. i am prodestent. the teriorest belive in god. though it is belived to be a different god, in all reality, look at the religion they are SUPOSED to be assosiated with. same basic fundamentals. no true religion, with the acceptions of satianist, pagons, and the other "unrulies" as they have been called, belives in killing of another person. also when religion is twisted, it can cause "holy wars." it is all interpirtation, or the lack, or maybe just the twisting of the interpertation, that causes the problems we see with these "holy wars" the whole muslim thing, very simalar to christianity. (im going to get flamed for sure for this) Jews, or the jewish, how ever you wish to say it, belive in the same god, just chose to negate the later half of the bible. pick a religion, and im sure, if you study it, you will see the simalarities between them all. im not saying they are the same, just simalar. we pick religions based on what we are, or are not comfortable with. in some cases we chose no religion, and belive we are mutant apes.(not saying i dont belive in evolution, so put down your damn swords)a group that interperts religion to there needs (bin ladden)will do awful things in the name of THEIR religion, not THE religion. then we get 9-11-01. ignorence + power + influence + illution = manipulation (i may have left out an ingrediant or part of the result, but this is the basic idea)

God in school:
is god nessisary? yes and no. freedom of choice. if you want to read a bible in school, you should be able to. you want to preach, get a convent. yeah im protestant, but im a bit of sugar, and poison, no spice needed. prayer in school? sure, i did, silently, as it wasnt my RIGHT to impose my belief on others. read a bible in school? yeah, i had study hall, when i was told to putit away, because it "wasnt appropriate" i got suspended for my "freedom of speach" (i told a few teachers where they could stick it, as how far up. i was not nice about having MY free time mandated) to me its simple. you dont want prayer? too bad, im going to pray in silence. you dont like it, go to h-e-double-hocky-stick.you dont like me praying silently, then i dont like you thinking silent, stop it, it offends me. bite me was my fav. thing to tell the teachers. they got the hint after a while, and i did my thing.
pray in school, do it if you want, dont empose on others.read a bible, sure, dont preach.

god the reason we had these event happen? hell no, any person who knows the bible knows god doesnt bring wrath. thats old testament, and only the Jewish read only the olds, as far as i know, and from what i have read on that religion is they dont belive god brings wrath either. (though i may be wrong)

another way to look at this is this way. you dont like the bible, or belive in god, fine, look at the ten comandments. they are a good wholesome "guidline" for any one, religious or not. come on, you if killing wasnt bad, we wouldnt punish for it. covert an other mans wife? sorry jail time. hey, its easy to go on. id say simply read the bible are if it were folklore, if your interested. treat it like greek mythology, but when you do, notice the lessons in it, just like the mythology.

these TV avangilists are all looking to line there pockets as far as im concerned. are you telling me they are puttting the money back into the work of the lord? HELL no, they have 40 ft. boats, and drive to the mass in a countach.screw them, they are not religion, they are outcasts. beggers who got the bone with meat. screw them, fake worship. enough said

simple, pray in your own heart brings god closer, we dont all have to belive, pray, love god, but the ones who do walk closer. the ones who dont, walk their own path, but (i know you dont want to hear this) god loves us ALL. if you never even acknoleg god in your life he stll loves you. the whole event of terorism had nothing to do with god, or the lack there of,, i had to do with a sick pr!ck who wanted to blow somthing up. screw that and screw him. lets torture, kill, or what ever him, and not look into gods intent. gods intent is not for us to guess, state or ponder.

sorry about the extra poison, im a little miffed at the tv avangilest, and the poor veiws on the religion angle. i am not a bible thumper, and unless you bring up religion, i wont, and i presonaly dont feel its my right to impose on you my toughts without them being goaded out, as this thread has. same thing about everything, sex, religion, polotics, love, any of it. want my veiws? bring em up, dont want me to post on something, let me know in the FIRST post, and i wont. (i know i come on real thick, and i will understand totaly, if my veiws or boldness bother you) BTW, im not this bold in person, as i dont have time to think in person. i need a good 5 seconds to come up with just one paragraph like those above. therefore i am more sedated in person.
any how, im using too much space yet again,
later,
Myke

Thats funny cause I seem to remember the 11 apostles 'drawing straws' as it were, to replace Judas - not anything about Peter appointing or being in charge

and there was that Paul guy who was out on his own in the wilderness for a couple years, apparently receiving knowledge directly from Jesus.

and something about the early church being persecuted and slaughtered by the romans for hundreds of years

and then the emperor of rome decided to convert and become a christian - here is where it gets fuzzy - did he appoint himself Pope?! did he appoint someone else pope?! Did he go out and bring in the people he was slaughtering the week before and ask them who the pope of the 'roman catholic church' was at the time?!

I see a diffent spin on things - I see Jesus telling the disciples that the rock of faith: 'Jesus is the son of God' - that was the rock on which the church was built.

and I see the last chapeter of John, Jesus asking Peter "do you love me" - if you look in the original greek Peter finally responds "Im fond of you" - not love -not intense loyality - but only fondness

but that was good enough because Jesus knew the gift of the Holy Spirit was still to come. and I dont see where it says 'only you' should feed my sheep.

I also see where Jesus said 'you are all priests' - the priesthood the Jews had was abolished - the temple was abolished, and the temple of God would now be the people themselves - the only one who now stands between man and God is Jesus

and there is nothing in the bible that shows the apostles acting as 'priests'. Leaders yes, teachers yes, prophets yes - but not priests.

The Catholic church has some serious and major problems, now and throughout its history - any other denomonation can always plead human frality and error in judgment, but the RC church cant do that either, cause when the Pope sits in THE chair with THE hat on, he is suppose to be infalible.

They are completely unwilling to discuss the errors of their church, as you unwilling to discuss them in a public forum.

Which is really too bad - I think if the RC church would be willing to go back and scrutinise their own past and present publically, they could be on a far better footing in the long run than they are now.

Everyone makes mistakes - we are not suppose to be perfect - Luther made major strides in his attempt to reform the RC church and he was kicked out.

but even he didnt get it all right - the generations since are slowly understanding things better and better - gaining more insite - getting to the point where the entire bible is seen as one integrated message from start to finish.

Its not my place to say whether the RC church is authentic or not - lots of groups claim to be Christians - even people like Jim Jones and David Korey.

Whos gonna sort it all out?! Not me! Not Now!

[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 11-20-2001).]

Wow ken that was very very good even one might say ....profound.

But anyway thats how i look at it too

And for anyone wondering the name baptistheart came from my church heartland baptist, It's the only thing i could think of, Im not trying to say my church is better than anyone elses.

Just to clear it up before i'm asked, It's been asked more than once in other places.

Peace

------------------
Joe

Five more posts after this one to reach 100 posts on this thread!

EVERYONE...YOU CAN DO IT!

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: Thats funny cause I seem to remember the 11 apostles 'drawing straws' as it were, to replace Judas - not anything about Peter appointing or being in charge PETER WENT TO ROME AND DIED and there was that Paul guy who was out on his own in the wilderness for a couple years, apparently receiving knowledge directly from Jesus. SAUL/PAUL SPENT YEARS CHASEING CHRISTIANS FOR THE HEAD JEWISH PREIST AND KILLED MANY OF THEM. THEN FELL OFF AN ASS HIT HIS HEAD WENT BLIND AND HEARD JC SPEAK TO HIM[ HE SAID]. PAUL NEVER DID SEE JC WHEN JC WAS ALIVE CLAIMED TO BE CURED BY JC OF BLINDNESS AND THEN FOUGHT WITH JC'S BROTHERS FOR CONTROL OF CHURCH OVER NONJEWS AND HOW TO CONVERT THEM.PAUL IS LUKE OR LUKE WORKED FOR PAUL AND REWROTE "q" and something about the early church being persecuted and slaughtered by the romans for hundreds of years BS COUPLE OF SHORT SPURTS WAS ALL, VERY FEW DIED AND NO LONG TERM EFFORTS IF ROMANS WANTED YOU DEAD THEY KILLED, HOW DID CHRISTIAN MANAGE TO TAKE THEM OVER LIKE HAPPEND and then the emperor of rome decided to convert and become a christian - here is where it gets fuzzy - did he appoint himself Pope?! did he appoint someone else pope?! Did he go out and bring in the people he was slaughtering the week before and ask them who the pope of the 'roman catholic church' was at the time?! POPE OR PONTIFF MAXIMUS WAS HEAD ROMAN PREIST BEFORE CHRISTIANS HE WAS FOLLOWER OF JUPTER. CHRISTIANS JUST TOOK OVER THE OFFICE AND TITLE AND NO EMPEROR WAS A POPE BEFORE OR AFTER CHRISTIANS EXCEPT MAYBE CALIGIA AND HE THOUGHT HE WAS JUPTER ANYWAY TOTALY NUTS. I see a diffent spin on things - I see Jesus telling the disciples that the rock of faith: 'Jesus is the son of God' - that was the rock on which the church was built. and I see the last chapeter of John, Jesus asking Peter "do you love me" - if you look in the original greek Peter finally responds "Im fond of you" - not love -not intense loyality - but only fondness but that was good enough because Jesus knew the gift of the Holy Spirit was still to come. and I dont see where it says 'only you' should feed my sheep. I also see where Jesus said 'you are all priests' - the priesthood the Jews had was abolished - the temple was abolished, and the temple of God would now be the people themselves - the only one who now stands between man and God is Jesus and there is nothing in the bible that shows the apostles acting as 'priests'. Leaders yes, teachers yes, prophets yes - but not priests. The Catholic church has some serious and major problems, now and throughout its history - any other denomonation can always plead human frality and error in judgment, but the RC church cant do that either, cause when the Pope sits in THE chair with THE hat on, he is suppose to be infalible. They are completely unwilling to discuss the errors of their church, as you unwilling to discuss them in a public forum. Which is really too bad - I think if the RC church would be willing to go back and scrutinise their own past and present publically, they could be on a far better footing in the long run than they are now. Everyone makes mistakes - we are not suppose to be perfect - Luther made major strides in his attempt to reform the RC church and he was kicked out. but even he didnt get it all right - the generations since are slowly understanding things better and better - gaining more insite - getting to the point where the entire bible is seen as one integrated message from start to finish. Its not my place to say whether the RC church is authentic or not - lots of groups claim to be Christians - even people like Jim Jones and David Korey. Whos gonna sort it all out?! Not me! Not Now! [This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 11-20-2001).]

HOLY SPIRT IS LACKING IN ALL POPES AND PREACHERS I EVER HEARD OR HEARD OF
GIVEN TIME MAYBE THEY WILL KILL THEMSELFS AND GOD CAN DO THE SORT BUT IF NO GOD OR SPRIT NO SORT BUT MORE KILLING IN HIS NAME.

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: HOLY SPIRT IS LACKING IN ALL POPES AND PREACHERS I EVER HEARD OR HEARD OF

I'm truly sorry about that, Ray.
I've known a couple of priests who were genuinely cool, sincere people.
Not that I haven't met a few that were complete hypocrites.
I think the priesthood, and the clergy in general, is like any other cross-section (no pun intended) of society. You'll meet the genuinely sincere, helpful people.
And you'll meet the marauding a$$#oles.
Just people. Same as everybody else.

------------------
Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: My car won't move. Once I got it home, it "creeps", even when the clutch is fully depressed. I'm not a big believer in "it worked 5 hours ago", so I'm certain Paul knew something was wrong. He just found the right dope at the right time... ANYWAY, I have a steel pedal coming (supposed to be here last week) and I hope that fixes it. If not, it's either one of the clutch cylinders or the clutch itself. Either way, I'm out a LOT of money. I was going to put an Isuzu 5sp in it, and with that he replaces the clutch cylinders and the clutch ($1500 at Twin Lakes/ $700 for the clutch alone) so it would be repetitive to replace anything if I'm going to replace it all anyway. VERY frustrated...to say the least. I did do the door tabs, though...pearl white with metallic blue border...nice.

Hmm that sucks But it still seems like a good project car though, especially if you were thinking about putting that 5sp in there anyway! Well, I hope you get it on the road soon. And when you've got some more stuff done on it, post some pics!

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: The Catholic church has some serious and major problems, now and throughout its history - any other denomonation can always plead human frality and error in judgment, but the RC church cant do that either, cause when the Pope sits in THE chair with THE hat on, he is suppose to be infalible. They are completely unwilling to discuss the errors of their church, as you unwilling to discuss them in a public forum. Which is really too bad - I think if the RC church would be willing to go back and scrutinise their own past and present publically, they could be on a far better footing in the long run than they are now. Everyone makes mistakes - we are not suppose to be perfect - Luther made major strides in his attempt to reform the RC church and he was kicked out. but even he didnt get it all right - the generations since are slowly understanding things better and better - gaining more insite - getting to the point where the entire bible is seen as one integrated message from start to finish. Its not my place to say whether the RC church is authentic or not - lots of groups claim to be Christians - even people like Jim Jones and David Korey. Whos gonna sort it all out?! Not me! Not Now! [This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 11-20-2001).]

Ok, Ken. TRY READING THE PAPER SOME TIME instead of memorizing passages from the Bible. The Pope (about 6 months ago) apologized for all of the sins committed by the Catholic church.

You know, memorizing passages and quoting at will is usually a sign of a sect (JW or others). I didn't want to argue about your/my religion but you seem BENT on doing that.

Well, let me tell you something. If you're a JW, yeah, I'm sure YOUR religion has been built on truth - yeah, by some guy who claims he saw Jesus in New York.

If you're not a JW, then you're just another freaking fanatic bent on quoting passages.

Notice these two things:
1. The Catholic church doesn't even talk about other religions. We do not try to go around disputing their origins or whether other religions are right or wrong. We do not go door-to-door trying to persuade others that ours is the only true religion. Only fanatics do that.

2. There are over a billion Roman Catholics in the world. Now I understand why you seem so bitter.

Have a good and holy life, Ken.

No Voytek, it doesn't bother me, so no need for you and I to go or even have to take it to PM as I'm not trying to get into a flame war with anyone on the subject, including you. I have my own personal views on religion, which are my views.

Its just silly watching everyone else fight about this all the time.

In a couple of cases, people have been saying the same thing...just in different ways.

I just look at it this way, taking an excerpt from the movie, I believe it was "SEVEN", the one with Demi Moore about the Guff. "What if we are all wrong?"

And I'm just wondering what would have happened had the several threads pertaining to the subject matter currently at hand been integrated into this one. "X" pages in "X" days! Would that have been an all time record for the forum?

Anyways, congratulations on the 100 post! I'm not here to fight with you Voytek or anyone else. Peace!

J - I'm not here to start wars either. Like one or two other people said earlier in this thread, as long as we stick to our own religions and don't try to tell others that they're living a lie, then it's all good.

Some 'hollier than thou' people just don't seem to get that.

Peace, man.

Peace, bro!

Or maybe I really should have said:

Peace to you, my fellow Fiero brethren. May the Fiero God shine graciously upon your Fiero and the teachings of the Chilton bible leads you on the right path to salvation.

[This message has been edited by JSocha (edited 11-21-2001).]

quote Originally posted by JSocha: I just look at it this way, taking an excerpt from the movie, I believe it was "SEVEN", the one with Demi Moore about the Guff. "What if we are all wrong?"

It wasn't Seven. Are you thinking of GI Jane?

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: It wasn't Seven. Are you thinking of GI Jane?

It was "The Seventh Sign".

Thanks Oreif! Thats was the one! Been a long, long, looonnnng time since I've seen it and the name had absolutely eluded me today.

Is there even a passage within any Bible about the Guff? Or was that just movie talk? After I seen it, I looked up the passage...couldn't find one...hotel/motel bibles you know.