Because of the diversity of the people reading these posts,I have always tried to get my ideas across without using language that I wouldn't use in front my mother,wife,or kids.Abreviations are so easy to interpret that they do nothing to cover the intent of the words.

why do the con's think that itis 1850 and queen vickie will never allow that kind of behavior. thiers is the only way to be or god will punish us for our trangressions.
one dark ages was enuff for me thanks no one ever died from a curse or a curseword excpt when those that think it is inportant to suppress the use of them attack the trangresser.
F+CK CENSORSHIP as it is just another way to inforce christian values on every one.

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Question wonder and be wierd

I can't believe it took ray b so long to comment. Maybe he would enjoy reading the discussion I had with JohnnyK regarding the mini-golf scenario.

This didn't have anything to do with religion until you brought it up. But now that you did... for a long time I have ignored the cuss words, sexual innuendo (sometimes more direct than just innuendo), and other posted indecencies in this public forum. Apparently such things are not indecent anymore, to some people anyway. That's life in the New Millennium. But I would never insult someone else's religion here, no matter how wrong I may consider it to be. In fact, I one day promised some Forum members that I would stay out of religious topics because it only served to get people upset, and it was generally agreed that this was not the place for those debates. And I have NOT made any religious arguments ever since. So if it's wrong for me to offend someone else's religion, why is it okay for others to insult the central figure of mine? And my religion is not some obscure thing that nobody ever heard of. It's a very popular one. The hurt that I feel when those insults are made is like if someone insulted your favorite family member, like a wife, mom, or grandparent. Just think of someone related to you that you love the most, and people start insulting him or her. If you can't do anything about it, you aren't going to stick around and listen to it, so you leave.

I will not attempt to censor anyone. I just want to not be offended the same way you don't want me to offend you. I cannot be a participant in a place where the One who is dearest to me is insulted, where the very fabric of my existence is being scalded. No, I'm not perfect, and I don't expect others to be. But I hope a group of diverse people can be conscious of who may be in their audience, and behave appropriately. What has become acceptible and appropriate in this section of the Forum is not what is acceptible to me, so I have to leave it.

I will watch this thread for a few more days and if there are questions or misconceptions, then I will reply again. Have a good day, ray b. JohnnyK, we'll still have that drink someday if you want to. Cliff, it's not your fault. I must still be living in the 50's.

quote Originally posted by ray b: F+CK CENSORSHIP as it is just another way to inforce christian values on every one.

I'm not a Christian believer, I don't go to church and at times I cus up a storm. I don't expect others to comply with my "Common decency towards others" respect is a word that comes to mind and I respect in most cases the need for others not to be subjected to my ignorance. I don't know but your comment smacks of youthful arrogance and general ignorance for Cheever2

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-25-2001).]

Woah woah.. When did I start bashing religion here? Leave me out of this one.. You don't want me to start flipping off the handle... I didn't really say anything harsh towards anyone in this thread. I'm innocent I tell you. And yes, you are still living in the 50's, but... I guess it's too late to adjust.

I have to laugh when I hear the anti-censorship mantras come out again. All the anti-censorship guys censor THEMSELVES all the time. It may not be close to the degree of some other people, but even they have lines they won't cross or things they won't do or say to certain people just because they don't think it's the right way to live, not because it's "Christian based".

Some people are willing to censor themselves based on Christian morals. Others censor themselves to at least some extent, regardless of Christian morals, just to be considerate of others. So don't hide behind "rejecting others imposing THEIR Christian morals on you" to excuse YOUR selfishness and inconsideration of others. I don't mind if you choose to be selfish and inconsiderate of others, just be honest about it.

Here's a mirror. Take a look.

ray b - Watch your mouth man! Do you think only Christians have values? Other cultures have many of the same values as we do. An offensive word is an offensive word, no matter what the culture or religion. Oh, and it's got nothing to do with 'queen vickie' either. Some degree of censorship is what keeps people like you from running through the streets naked, yelling obscenities at others. Besides that, it's like 84Bill says, common decency (and courtesy).

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Personally I think it would be great if I could run through the streets naked yelling obscenities.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Personally I think it would be great if I could run through the streets naked yelling obscenities.

DOH!

freedom is not free it can and will be taken away by people with good intentions and your best intrests at heart or so they say.
why are christians immune from their actions and unable to axccept any blame for them ever.
they are now with bush and republican conservatives tring with all their might to change laws and rules to ban what they don't like to see or talk about.
fight for freedom or it will be gone forever.

To all you punks who think you're cool, make-a-friend, hot shots by swearing and degrading everything you possibly can.....YOU'RE NOT! Just because it "seems" like others are supporting you by doing the same thing....THEY'RE NOT! They are mearly trying to find who the heck they are in this HUGE world of diversity and "trying" to be as big as IT is too - and by following????? Yeah right, good try. People look at you guys as morons not as "cool dudes". There are a greater majority who don't like foul language and Christian degradation than you think. The world does not revolve around you. You as well as everyone else are the same little specks in this world so don't try to be anything bigger than you can. It just makes you look stupid.

FOLLOWERS!!!

There, I feel better now.

JohnnyK,

See, therein lies the problem. YOU think it would be great, while the rest of us DO NOT!!!

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Personally I think it would be great if I could run through the streets naked yelling obscenities.

I could handle that, but not the shouting obscenities part.

IMHO the one thing the is really degrading humanity is a lack of respect for other people. And a general selfishness as well. I know I won't change anyones attitudes by stating this, but it is the truth.

If you have ever worked any jobs where you deal with the general public (such as, I worked in a toy store, many fast food places, and tech support for an isp), you will see what I mean.

Another example, when you are trying to pull out on a busy road, how many people wave you across as opposed to just speeding by, or just trying to cross the street on your own 2 feet.

Freedom of speech is a good thing, but folks do have the freedom to say that they think your opinion is not right. It works both ways. The only way to keeo it in check is to respect each other.

Frontal Lobe: Therin lies the problem? I'm not even seeing a problem... No bodies doing that over here.

For those of you that understand what I was trying to get across and have elaborated, Thanks you. I felt as If I were sticking my neck out there a bit while typing that post.

It's not an easy thing to curb when in the company of others but I just try to think of how I would feel if in that other persons shoes.
Those that are much more aggressive in nature tend not to think such things and could care less, they feel that everyone should "fight" for any and everything they believe in because that's what they do fight and confront.
I'm not one to turn and run from such things. For example I smoke but I only smoke where I know I am allowed to. Does that tick me off? Yes it does. But for the good of my fellow man I don't make offense.
I had to ride a train home from the City one night and some idiot lights up a smoke on the trolley. I politely asked him to put it out and he start bitching and whining about rights and bla bla and continues to smoke. Next I told the guy to put it out and he finally did. A few minutes later the Neanderthal flops down in the seat next to me and starts the usual aggressive posturing. I folded up the paper I was reading looked him squarely in the eye and said "No smoking on the trolley, Now you have 3 seconds to vacate that seat" He being the aggressive I can do as I please type, just sat there for 3 more seconds before I leveled him.
After he was arrested and I reborded the trolley I was given a standing ovation by everyone on the trolley. When I finally got to my stop a guy and a girl got off and lit up smokes and said thank you for doing that. The guy happened to be the one that stopped the Neanderthals buddy from getting involved. Go figure.
So I'm not the only one that feels this way about things that offend there are many many others that are just content to sit there and take your crap but underneath it they want to slap you up side your head and then there are some that will. I'ts always better to side with the "right" thing to do. Lets face it when you do something does the little voice in your head ask "is this ok to do" If not then your just not thinking (mindless)
End of Rant

Ray,You were born way too late.You would have been a star during the Salem witch trials.Anyone who disagreed with you ,you could call a witch and that would be enough to get rid of them.

JohnnyK,

I'm sorry. I was just kidding. I didn't mean LITERALLY that it was a problem, or that you have been causing problems. I was just joking around, but I was too lazy to put a smiley face in there so you would know that. I should have made it clear.

no we don't burn witchs we are on the other side in the battle for truth justice and the american way. i am far prouder of the family ancesters who walked out on the stupid puritans and left to found road island with freedom from religion as a base belife.
they want to burn my kind we just flame them with words not in fact as they have done to all who dare speak up against the fairy tales.
flame away but remeber what hiliry said there is a vast right wing conspirary and they work hard at it all the time and never give up.

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: vast right wing conspirary

I guess we all have our fairy tales, huh?

(edited to fix typo)

[This message has been edited by DRH (edited 06-26-2001).]

Snap out of it, people! A lot of forum members take this place WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. Be serious on the technical board, but otherwise just voice your opinions and have a little fun. I think it's lame when people can't handle their religious, political, or moral views being questioned. I feel it's a sign of weakness. If you don't feel like you're able enough to defend your views, you're obviously not very confident in them. Nobody is right or wrong, it's just a debate.

Gt: What? i always liked to think that my opinions were actually the "way"..

As much as I disagree with a lot of what RayB says, I find his chaotic, nonsensical jabberwocky strangly compelling and articulate. Go figure.

My .00023412USD:

1) Censorship in all forms other than personal witholding is unacceptable. To have a 3rd party dictating what I can/cannot see/say offends me. HOWEVER, I also think that people should smarten up. Mutual respect thing. I don't want to be censored. I try not to say/do things that would result in me being censored. Not because I am afraid (**** piss **** ass **** ***** ******* ) but because I don't feel that it's right.
As for TV and such, I don't think any program should be banned. However, showing South Park at 6pm on a local network was a little inappropriate, given the content. I applaud Global for moving it to 12am. I *want* to watch the show, so I stay up.

2)Religion: I'm Catholic. There, I said it. Actually, I'm more of an Agnostic. I don't like a LOT of things about my church. I don't hate Gay people, and I don't think that I am right in everything I do. I don't put down other religions, because, for all I know, they are just as viable as mine. Putting down anyone else just breeds violence. Arguing religion is OK in my books, but when you start saying stupid things like "Mine is(are) the only God(s)" and other Dogma, count me out.

3)Neo-Nazis and KKK? I respect your (their)opinion. However, waving your opinion in my face, and/or putting down any of my ethnically inclined friends will result in several compound fractures above and below your elbow. You have been warned.

4)Cheever: I respect your stance. In general, I am as liberal as they come.
I disagree with Gay Rights only in that I don't believe they should be treated any different than anyone else. This also goes with any Ethnic minorit/majority/language etc. Contrary to the saying, I don't think anyone was created more equal than others. I don't believe in censorship simply because censorship SHOULDN'T BE NEEDED. If you are offended/shocked/appalled by what's going on in OT, you are doing the best thing that I could possibly think of. Good job! Instead of whining to the moderators, you (a respected community memeber) are voicing your opinion, while allowing the rest of us to continue our wicked ways at our own discreting. I tip my hat, and out of respect will attempt to moderate myself a little more in OT if its necessary.

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 06-26-2001).]

Man, am I ever glad to see many others leaning towards the "respect" side over the "rebel" side. It makes me feel like there's still hope in this world.

Exhibiter: No one ever leaned towards the "rebel" side. If they had, they would have told you directly to go to hell. Instead, they are just stating their opinions? I see no actual arguments or hatred starting from this thread... It's all just opinions

quote I think it's lame when people can't handle their religious, political, or moral views being questioned. I feel it's a sign of weakness. If you don't feel like you're able enough to defend your views, you're obviously not very confident in them.

I see your point, but if you were here in the height of the religious debates a few months ago, you surely saw that it became a no-win argument for all involved. I had more to say, as others probably did, but it was going out to deaf ears (eyes). It's not always worth it to fight. There was no point in the battle when even winning that battle would result in having destroyed what you came to win - the companionship of Forum buddies. And confidence can be gained in staying out of a fight. We had a sign on the wall of my karate school, and the very last part of it said: "For by learning to fight, you actually educate yourself in the avoidance of battle."

Well, I appreciate all the participation in this discussion. I received more comments in emails and in the chat - some agreed with me, some didn't. I'll not read this topic any longer, but you can discuss it more amongst yourselves.

I have come to realize how obsessed I am with this Forum, and now much time I spent here. It has not been a good thing. One benefit from scaling down how much I read will be to spend more time with my family.

I guess it's good to turn off the TV after all.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: 4)Cheever: I respect your stance. In general, I am as liberal as they come. I disagree with Gay Rights only in that I don't believe they should be treated any different than anyone else. This also goes with any Ethnic minorit/majority/language etc. Contrary to the saying, I don't think anyone was created more equal than others. I don't believe in censorship simply because censorship SHOULDN'T BE NEEDED. If you are offended/shocked/appalled by what's going on in OT, you are doing the best thing that I could possibly think of. Good job! Instead of whining to the moderators, you (a respected community memeber) are voicing your opinion, while allowing the rest of us to continue our wicked ways at our own discreting. I tip my hat, and out of respect will attempt to moderate myself a little more in OT if its necessary. [This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 06-26-2001).]

You keep this up Mach10 and I'll have to add you to the "top 10 respected list"
Very nicely put.

JohnnyK: Sorry, but I'm not sure what you meant on your last post to me. I think you misread what I said because I was just saying that I'm glad to see people still show respect for others. Nothing to do with arguments or hatred. Although I'm pretty sure I saw some signs of hatred or even arguments for that matter in this topic...I could be wrong though.

Exhibiter: Probably wrong..? I never saw signs of hatred or disrespect.. just disagreements?

*Grins and bows to 84Bill*
Even if I spelt "discretion" wrong?

I don't have much to say at the moment. Don't worry, I'll think of something

JohnnyK: My mistake then. I appologize.

I got in on this one a little late but here is my Canadian 2 cents worth. I don't believe in censorship but I do believe in being accountable for your actions. If your words make you sound stupid, so be it. I agree with Mach10 on this one and remember the words of Malcolm X: "A man curses because he doesn't have the intelligence to say what is on his mind"

Having said that, I believe that you should censor yourself. In this world that we live in, it is impossible to not hear or see things that offend you. But that doesn't mean you have to jump into the lions den. If you are offended by something then it is your own responsibility to stop watching or reading or even being someplace. Make sense?

Then again, also remember that Malcolm X was a racist idiot.

But then again, Jay is making a really good point (and the quote is very right).

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Then again, Malcolm-X was a racist idiot.

But then again.... um, never mind.

Ok, one more time: I do believe the racist thing, but the quote is still relevant to this topic.

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But then again everyone is a racist idiot to some degree.

For those of you who know of Terry Pratchett, this quote is quite relevant:

quote Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad, p.167 Nanny Ogg had found a friend. Her name was Mrs. Pleasant, she was a cook, and she was the the first black person that Nanny had ever spoken to.* *Racism was not much of a problem on the Discworld, because -- what with trolls and dwarfs and so on -- speciesism was so much more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.

Is it not nifty? worship the series

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 07-01-2001).]

My general opinion on the subject is that people just need to lighten up. Don't take what everybody says seriously, it is hard to convey sarcasm in text unless you know the person. Even then its sometimes hard to tell.

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Never pull your pants down in Cosco, the dang monkeys will getcha

That just shows your ignorance on the subject of race. Malcolm X may have started out with racist views (can you blame him for hating whites?)but by the end of his life he was a mainstream practicing muslim with NO racist views. Read the autobiography of his life as dictated to Alex Haley and you will understand the transformation he made. The problem with this world is that people never allow others to grow and change, they are always remembered for the bad in their lives. Malcolm X was not a racist but a believer in the black community. Was he a racist at one time? YES, he even admitted it himself. Was all that he spewed out racist? NO. I wouldn't think that many non ethnic people would understand, but at least have a base line understanding before making a broad statement like the one above. Malcolm X is the perfect example of what can happen when people listen to each other with open minds and have a sincere desire to understand. Calling him a racist idiot is being one yourself.