I have stumbled across a few articles talking about using Liquid air /liquid nitrogen to power a car . How it works is the liquid Nitrogen boils at -320 F and expands 700 times so it goes through a heat exchanger and builds pressure and is feed to an engine like a steam engine or it could be injected straight into the engine along with a warm liquid and then it expands driving the engine. I think it is a intresting Idea

How much energy is used to liquify the nitrogen?

good question From what i have read they can get up 70% return of the energy that it took to make it when turning it back into electricity by spinning a turbine and generator but not sure about the automotive

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 03-15-2013).]

That is not too terrible a return on energy. Might be a useful thing for future automobiles since it is a very compact and energy dense method to store energy. Maybe use an electric drive system off of a relatively small battery pack, that would be recharged through a turbine generator powered by the liquid nitrogen. That way the batteries could be used for high power surges for acceleration and for short runs and then the N2 powered turbine generator would recharge the batteries.

Ya MadMark i was thinking along the same lines

Technically you are just using the nitrogen as an energy storage device, just like electricity and hydrogen. Not a bad thing, just pointing that out.

How much liquid nitrogen can you carry around without HAZMAT certification? Would you be allowed to enter tunnels? Would liquid C02 work?

You think gas is bad in an accident! Think of the movie Terminator 2

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 03-16-2013).]

I just wanted to sound a pre-emptive perpetual motion alarm... You guys are getting dangerously close and this is your only warning.

well since it boils at 320 bellow zero degrees F i don't think it will take any extra energy to convert it to gas other than a heat exchanger

quote Originally posted by FTF Engineering: I just wanted to sound a pre-emptive perpetual motion alarm... You guys are getting dangerously close and this is your only warning.

No not really. I used to scoff at all these energy storage device proposals, but there is some value in them...

We have tons of excess electrical generation capacity in the grid. As of now there is very little if any way to store that, (some hydro plants can refill their reservoir but that's about it). Otherwise that energy is wasted. The grid has to respond instantaneously to demand. There is no time to spin up these huge turbines so that are generally always running at full capacity and any excess energy is wasted.

So in other words if you could have a fleet of cars powered by some stored energy source such as electricity, hydrogen, liquified nitrogen or even compressed air, it would be possible to charge them using the grid. It's not perpetual energy because real power is being used to charge the car and as mentioned at best you get 70% of it back. That's not counting the fact that your electricity plant that was burning coal, gas or nuclear is only 50% efficient, but that's true regardless.

Would work great to use some of the plumbing in the cab for air in the summer, but you would still need something for heat and defrost for the cold great white north.

I know this is a bit off topic but i have thought about this one long enough with out talking about it it is how to store Solar Energy and turn it into Electricity . How it would work is you put really large tanks in the ground that are supper insulated then you put water in them and run the water through Solar heat collectors to heat the water so you are storing the solar energy in the water in the forum of heat now you pump the heated water through a heat exchanger where R 134 refrigerant is pumped into causing it to expand and build pressure to turn a turbine that spins a generator then when the refrigerant leaves the turbine it is cooled back down in a condenser and the process starts all over again . this process works it has been done in Alaska but instead of the heat from the sun to warm the water they use a hot spring.
this is a link to Popular Mechanics Article for the Geothermal power generation that my idea is based off http://www.popularmechanics.../environment/4245896

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 03-17-2013).]

I don't even think the Liquid Nitrogen energy needs to be turned back to electricity all you need to do is turn a turbine and have it governed to a certain speed then use a Hydrostatic drive the hydrostatic drive can run the speed with a variable displacement pump

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 03-17-2013).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: it would be possible to charge them using the grid.

Right. That's why it was pre-emptive. So far, it sounds like everything is proposed to be charged from the grid in one way or another, but I'm just waiting for it.

Check out this Liquid Nitrogen Car I just would use a turbine instead of piston http://www.bloomberg.com/vi...VRXaNPJItJDB6xg.html

Just like an LP system, the exchanger has to be warmed or it will freeze solid.

Just like grass, there's something better out there than what's in your own yard.

Just fun to look at and talk about I have my project to work on when it warms up

Liquid Nitrogen is a cool novelty to look at, and useful in research. But in practical reality, it's totally untenable for everyday use. Keeping Nitrogen cool enough to be liquid is a waste of energy, in terms of using it as a state change (flashing to gas, then back to liquid) fuel source to power a car.

Super/ultra-capacitors are much more interesting.