I have had 2 sets of these things on my 1988gt and all 2 sets have blown off. First set was held on with 3m thick out door tape which he recommended and the 2nd time around I used the $25 tube of 3m window adhesive. Both times the tape and adhesive stayed on the car and the so did the cheap black paint he uses to black out the back of the window.

So $260 Mistake. Live and learn. Save your money and get something nicer.

I think it is all in the prep.
Cause they blew off is not his fault is it???

The first time was his fault for the paint, but why didn't you remove the paint the second time? or at least scuff it up well if it would show the tape through the window?

I'm fairly sure you're supposed to sand both the fastback mount portion of the body and the inside of the quarter window even with the paint on it. Hit the quarter window with a rather fine sandpaper and the inside of the fastback body work with a little more abrasive.

You cannot scuff the paint on the Windows or it show through to the other side. His paint sure sticks to the tape or the window adhesive..... It's his paint not sticking to his Windows is the issue.


I don't think this is the first time these things have flown off on the cars.

My Brother had a similar problem. I don't know who's windows were on the car when he bought it, but they looked good. A year or so later, the ink/paint on the back side started to turn loose from the windows and stayed on the adhesive.

Having printed on polycarbonates and acrylics for some 35+ years, I know that the ink/paint must bite into the substrate and essentially become a part of it. That was the problem with my Brother's windows. The ink/paint was a surface adhesion, only. You can accomplish that kind of adhesion with BBQ Grill spray paint, but there's only a surface bond. Acrylic sheeting should be printed with an acrylic ink and it will not peel away from the substrate. It's possible that the vendor didn't know what his supplier was using.

If you buy something nicer will you still fail to use mastic or prep at least for the 3m tape.
Why don't you blame 3m? It seems it was their product that has failed you.

I will give a raving review on these windows they are great!!!!!!!!! There is no mention of lack of quality here just that failed to fasten.

[This message has been edited by Australian (edited 09-22-2012).]

I have his products and I think they are a great replacement to be cost effective. If you don't prep correctly even an oem set will blow off. Maybe you could get help from someone else on the forum close to you that could install them with the proper prep.

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1984 Indy Pace Car\1988 Formula Custom
President of Maryland Fiero Owners Club MFOC
NYFOC Member

What a lot of people do is just depend on the double sided tape. On any window install, I would recommend the tape plus black silicone. Here is an example. The factory panels have the leading edge directly behind the driver/passenger glass siliconed to keep air from getting under the panels at highway speed. The red lines in my picture is the tape and the blue lines is the black silicone. Note the factory remnants of silicone just behind my drivers side window:

quote Originally posted by Australian: If you buy something nicer will you still fail to use mastic or prep at least for the 3m tape. Why don't you blame 3m? It seems it was their product that has failed you. I will give a raving review on these windows they are great!!!!!!!!! There is no mention of lack of quality here just that failed to fasten.

Every response to this has assumed the adhesive didn't do the job it was intended to.

Let Me make it clear......Both times, both adhesive products did what they were supposed to do. It was His cheap black rattle can paint that separated from HIS window.

I Have sections of window that I stopped and picked up that clearly show the paint is no longer on them and you can match them up to where the paint is still stuck to the adhesive STILL on the car.. It wouldn't have mattered what adhesive I used on the install because his paint separated from his window. I have a section here in my lap that the black paint where there wasn't adhesive, can be scraped off with just fingernail. His Paint is not bonding to his window.


These windows are Junk!!!!!!!!!! Save your money and Get NOS parts or the Laminated windows that are out now.

[This message has been edited by deezil (edited 09-22-2012).]

quote Originally posted by deezil: These windows are Junk!!!!!!!!!! Save your money and Get NOS parts or the Laminated windows that are out now.

We get it, you had a bad experience and want someone to blame.

See IMSA GT's reply. If sufficient air flow got by the window itself, it could have created a pressure zone to blow the window off. You don't know why exactly it blew off. And having the windows blow off and the tape sticking to the back side pulling some of the black off, would have damaged the paint for sure, making it much easier to scratch through, even with your fingernail.

I have a brand new set of these panels sitting in my floor right now, that I just bought, and I am unable to scratch the back side paint as you described. There is slight marring from pressing my fingernail down, as there's no clear coat on top of it, but the paint did not come off, and I certainly can't see any such marks from the other side. Also, all the cars I have seen in person with these sail windows on, still have them on, and they have been on for quite some time now. When I install mine, I don't expect them to ever come off in the manner you've described, either.

Maybe you got a couple of bad ones. Even if you did, it doesn't mean they all are. Nor from the content of your posts, does it seem like you attempted to resolve the problem in any way with kahines. Understandably you are frustrated, but simple venting and trying to place blame doesn't solve the problem. What will you do when you spend $250 or more for one set from The Fiero Store or elsewhere, and then have the exact same problem again? Start another thread saying how crap they are too?

quote Originally posted by dobey: We get it, you had a bad experience and want someone to blame. See IMSA GT's reply. If sufficient air flow got by the window itself, it could have created a pressure zone to blow the window off. You don't know why exactly it blew off. And having the windows blow off and the tape sticking to the back side pulling some of the black off, would have damaged the paint for sure, making it much easier to scratch through, even with your fingernail. I have a brand new set of these panels sitting in my floor right now, that I just bought, and I am unable to scratch the back side paint as you described. There is slight marring from pressing my fingernail down, as there's no clear coat on top of it, but the paint did not come off, and I certainly can't see any such marks from the other side. Also, all the cars I have seen in person with these sail windows on, still have them on, and they have been on for quite some time now. When I install mine, I don't expect them to ever come off in the manner you've described, either. Maybe you got a couple of bad ones. Even if you did, it doesn't mean they all are. Nor from the content of your posts, does it seem like you attempted to resolve the problem in any way with kahines. Understandably you are frustrated, but simple venting and trying to place blame doesn't solve the problem. What will you do when you spend $250 or more for one set from The Fiero Store or elsewhere, and then have the exact same problem again? Start another thread saying how crap they are too?

You are just assuming I never tried contacting him. He never replied to me after the first time and My Wife bought the second set for my Birthday last year after seeing the car with out the windows. The first time around I Think I can even remember posting if he was a member of the forum because I could not bet a hold of him. I am pretty sure the consensus back then was the guy doesn't answer emails but he was good about sending parts out after you pay but good luck contacting him. And I Can most certainly scrape the paint off of mine with a fingernail.

Look.. I could care less about getting another set from him. I just don't want people to have to go through this like I have...TWICE.

I Had his product fail twice and I clearly stated what happened. The Windows where installed correctly both times. The front area where noted in imsa gt's pic had a generous application of adhesive and it also was still on the car..........With the paint attached to the adhesive after the window blew off.

These windows failed because the Poor design of using Paint and Poor quality paint at that to black out the back side. I would assume a window or sail panel that did not have a layer of poorly applied paint or was a solid surface like acrylic would still be stuck to the car and I would not be complaining about it and sawing it off with piano wire 20 years from now.

Any of the guys looking at these for use on their car here's all that counts..

The Only thing that is really holding these to your car is the poorly applied and low quality paint on the backside of the windows.. It doesn't matter what type or brand adhesive you use Once the paint lets go your window will go as well.

[This message has been edited by deezil (edited 09-22-2012).]

I had one of my quarter windows blow off also which made me quite unhappy. It seems to me that using the 3M tape doesn't work all that great. I used silicone the second time and haven't had any problems at all.

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: On any window install, I would recommend the tape plus black silicone...

That's exactly what I did three years ago with a set of sail panels from Kahines. Those suckers are not coming off... ever (without dynamite).

I don't know if the quality of Ken's sail panels differ from one another depending on their tint etc, but I'm more than happy with the ones I bought from him.

I'm afraid I have to agree with deezil on this. I'm not knocking Kahine or anybody, but if the paint lifted off the window and stuck to the tape or RTV or Gorilla Glue or bubble gum, then the prep or choice of adhesive wasn't the problem. The bond between the ink/paint coating and the window was the problem. If you paint it with the wrong paint, it isn't going to bond.

I have no idea who made the windows my Brother has but they were installed using some form of self-vulcanizing rubber. The way it was applied, I am guessing it was from a caulking gun. There were several huge gobs behind the solid black panel and it was applied well around the perimeter of the window. The window came loose from the adhesive, leaving the adhesive contact areas completely clear. All the ink on the contact areas peeled loose and stayed on the rubber. The vulcanized rubber was so aggressive that I had to use a paint scraper and chisel it off using a hammer to drive it through the rubber.

I peeled off all remaining loose coating and purchased a can of black acrylic spray paint, sprayed the back of the windows and reapplied them with 3M tape.

I've had a set on my 88 for a couple years now and they are doing fine.

Why is anyone using 3m tape anyway? Buy a tube of mastic it will never come off.

Imsagt, I've removed 2 original factory sets of windows and installed 1 factory set of windows. Neither of them had silicone RTV underneath. They all had double side tape around the perimeter plus an additional strip at the front where your single blue line is. I suspect your windows had been removed at some point and reinstalled

^ I have to agree with Charlie on this one as my 86 GT had only tape when I removed the factory sail panels.

quote Originally posted by dobey: We get it, you had a bad experience and want someone to blame. See IMSA GT's reply. If sufficient air flow got by the window itself, it could have created a pressure zone to blow the window off. You don't know why exactly it blew off. And having the windows blow off and the tape sticking to the back side pulling some of the black off, would have damaged the paint for sure, making it much easier to scratch through, even with your fingernail. I have a brand new set of these panels sitting in my floor right now, that I just bought, and I am unable to scratch the back side paint as you described. There is slight marring from pressing my fingernail down, as there's no clear coat on top of it, but the paint did not come off, and I certainly can't see any such marks from the other side. Also, all the cars I have seen in person with these sail windows on, still have them on, and they have been on for quite some time now. When I install mine, I don't expect them to ever come off in the manner you've described, either. Maybe you got a couple of bad ones. Even if you did, it doesn't mean they all are. Nor from the content of your posts, does it seem like you attempted to resolve the problem in any way with kahines. Understandably you are frustrated, but simple venting and trying to place blame doesn't solve the problem. What will you do when you spend $250 or more for one set from The Fiero Store or elsewhere, and then have the exact same problem again? Start another thread saying how crap they are too?

I am not impressed that you have an uninstalled set that you cannot scratch the paint off from. It's entirely possible that the paint does not play well chemically with the recommended adhesives and loses it's adhesion to the panel.

MY 88 was a one owner car and have the factory Windows on it. Both sides had a combo of black urethane and poofy double sided tape..

If these panels did not have the poorly adhered paint..... I bet they would still be on my car.
Mastic shamastic I used a professional urethane to install the last set. The adhesive was not the problem.
Loss of adhesion between the paint and glass was.

Keep in mind these things were only installed in June of this year. They had plenty enough time for paint to cure setting in my parts room.

quote Originally posted by deezil: I Had his product fail twice and I clearly stated what happened. The Windows where installed correctly both times. The front area where noted in imsa gt's pic had a generous application of adhesive and it also was still on the car..........With the paint attached to the adhesive after the window blew off. These windows failed because the Poor design of using Paint and Poor quality paint at that to black out the back side. I would assume a window or sail panel that did not have a layer of poorly applied paint or was a solid surface like acrylic would still be stuck to the car and I would not be complaining about it and sawing it off with piano wire 20 years from now.

Presumably you have some pictures then, of both the car and windows, showing all of these issues? It would probably be beneficial for everyone to see them.

I like his products that he puts out. The only thing I can think of is maybe since he makes them according to when someone places an order. Maybe it's not enough time for the paint to cure making it a weak point between the sail panels and the rear clip. Should there be a waiting point once it's painted?

D/D

[This message has been edited by Daredevil05 (edited 09-23-2012).]

Daredevil, in response to your question about curing time. Most coatings (ink or paint) cure in a relatively short time. In the case of the acrylic (Plexiglas) quarter widows, they can be cured either by rack drying or an electric or gas fired jet dryer if a solvent based ink is used, or through an ultra violet dryer if UV ink is used.

Yes, Kahine makes some good products but I doubt he's the one who actually produces these. He likely has a contract printer doing the work. They certainly have enough time between production, shipping to Kahine and then to his customers. Whether it's a solvent base, catalyzed or UV cured ink, it should have bonded to the acrylic sheeting long before it even got to Kahine or left his shop.

The problem is that the printer is using the wrong ink. Acrylic ink will actually cross-link into the surface and become a part of the acrylic sheeting. Paint it with enamel or latex and 10 years later you can still peel it off because it's only a surface bond. Try putting house paint of any form onto a window. Let it cure and then try to remove it with an abrasive object, whether it be a scraper blade or wire brush. You will find it will come off and leave the surface of the glass unscathed by the bond. Try removing the black paint from the back of an 84 notchback quarter window. You will have to destroy the glass to get the paint off the back. That's because they used an acid-etch ink that eats into the glass and becomes one with the glass. If you're printing on polycarbonate (Lexan) you must use a different ink. Acrylic won't bond properly and neither will the ink for polycarbonate properly bond to acrylic.

I understand the satisfaction and loyalty of all the Fiero specialty vendors. Rodney, The Fiero Store, The Fiero Factory, Fiero Sails, West Coast Fieros, Sinister Performance and all the others. l've seen it time and time again that someone had a problem, let us know about it and got gang-banged. I think the first thing that should be done is to go to the vendor and try to resolve the problem there before coming here. Deezil isn't the first that's had problems with aftermarket quarterwindows. Not just Kahine's but those sold by others have had the same ink delamination problem. It isn't caused by the prep or lack of prep. It's caused by the ink used to print on the substrate.

quote Originally posted by fierofool: l've seen it time and time again that someone had a problem, let us know about it and got gang-banged.

... You must have a different definition of "gang-bang" than me.

Making it clear that not everyone has a problem with a vendor's product is not exactly ganging up on someone and/or dismissing reports of an issue.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I don't know if the quality of Ken's sail panels differ from one another depending on their tint etc, but I'm more than happy with the ones I bought from him.

Deezil kept saying over and over that the ink peeled away from the plexiglas and everyone kept saying it was because of his lack of prep. He could only prep the surface of the ink, which apparently stayed adhered to his tape, but turned loose from the plesiglas that he couldn't prep.

What I meant by gang-banged is that not just in this case, but with the products of so many other highly respected Fiero product and service vendors, there are those that staunchly defend them that they don't really absorb what someone says and they all gang up on the complainant. Think way back and think FastFieros of Dallas. Lloyd was the icon of 3800 swaps and when the first few people spoke up about problems with his products or services, lots of people came to his defense because they had had good results. I think in our responses, we should just relate our good results and not try to prove that the person with a problem really didn't have a problem. Just maybe, they really did.

If I have a problem with the products and services I provide, I hope my customers will come to me first. So far, they have. I'm having an unusual number of returns on Gen. 1 headlight motor rebuilds due to receiving inferior gears from my provider. I've been in contact with my provider, made them aware of the problem and when the issue is finalized, whether the problem is resolved or unresolved, I'll post the result, Deezil's failure to do that is the only fault I can find with him.

I know it's irritating to most of us when someone says of our Fiero, "Those things caught fire, didn't they"? We're quick to come to the Fiero's defense. Maybe yours didn't, but didn't some of those things really catch on fire?

Nobdy is "ganging up" on deezil here. Most of the replies are pointing application issues which could cause the windows to blow off, asking more questions, or simply people saying the exact same windows are working great for them. And deezil's own replies are just "No, that's not it, these suck, you shouldn't by them." which doesn't help anyone. It's just venting his frustration.

Pictures of the adhesive on the body showing how it was applied, and the damage to the windows that blew off, would be much more helpful than a simple vent of frustration. It's better to look at the evidence, than simply listen to the complaints, and blindly accept them as total fact.

Unless he failed to apply adhesive across the front leading edge, by his descriptions I don't see an application issue. Even with what has been said here, I will soon be ordering a set of Kahine's windows to go on my Brother's car to replace the ones where the paint turned loose just like Deezil's. Even though I've repaired them, we're repainting the car and they had to come off. My 3M tape held well enough to the acrylic paint I put on them that we broke the windows removing them. None of the acrylic paint peeled away.

quote Originally posted by fierofool: I've been in contact with my provider, made them aware of the problem and when the issue is finalized, whether the problem is resolved or unresolved, I'll post the result, Deezil's failure to do that is the only fault I can find with him.

That's the "only" fault? What about the heading of this thread?

Instead of bringing the problem to the forum's attention to perhaps get some feedback, Deezil appears content with trashing the product and discouraging anyone else from buying it.

I can sympathize with having a problem with a product, but I don't think it's entirely fair to the vendor to have such negative comments posted (especially the topic heading) without some modicum of discussion.

That's what I said. He should have contacted the vendor first before coming here.

When the first set blew off the car I tried contacting the seller MULTIPLE times via his website and thru ebay. Please don't make it sound like I didn't.

Anyhow here's some pics for you all. These were pieces of the window that I went back and grabbed off of the hwy it flew off. I tried shooting them with my phone with what little light the dirty garage window provided.

This one shows the section of paint gone where the Urethane was and shows the section of paint that had no urethane.
I scratched the Hi into it with my Fingernail.


I guess this was a lower section and it flat took all of the paint off right up to the sanded edge


This is a section of leading edge of the urethane that I shaved off with a razor blade from the fiero body. The entire piece of the urethane strip has the paint attached to it.
It also clearly shows the sanding marks that he puts into the window for the paint to bite.



On a Related note the 3M Rubber wheel for vinyl decals and pinstripe did a excellent job of removing the urethane that was left over on the window frame after I shaved it the bulk of it off with a blade.

[This message has been edited by deezil (edited 09-23-2012).]

quote Originally posted by deezil: It also clearly shows the sanding marks that he puts into the window for the paint to bite.

That in itself says that the printer feels there's an adhesion problem. They're trying to make a mechanical bond instead of a chemical bond. If this were a front-printed piece, scuffing would show through any printing. The printing should be as smooth as the substrate. It may be they're using an ink that gives more opacity. Acrylic printing ink can be a little transparent, depending upon what mesh silk screen they're printing with.

This isn't ink. It is just flat black spray paint.

When the first one blew off I had a friend that works in the Lighted sign making business to see if he could just make me a solid black set off of the one that was still on the car. The curve threw him for a loop so he brought the other one back.

At that time he told me it was paint. He also stated if it was printed with ink ( like he uses to back print signs) the ink would have essentially be part of the base material because of what you just said a chemical bond.

[This message has been edited by deezil (edited 09-23-2012).]

It could be a flat or matte printing ink. If the window has dot matrix around the edges, it would need to be screen printed. The ones from my Brother's car had been screen printed in the areas of the dot matrix border and just enough to overprint the GT logo. From that point forward I believe it had also been sprayed because the finish was completely different than the other. Whether a flat coating or gloss coating, when printed sub-surface will look glossy when looking through the substrate.

Your sign maker friend knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Lets assume this was resolved by replacing with unpainted windows that you could finish as you please. What would you do? Would you use acrylic paint with acrylic window as you know full well he didn't choose enamel? Would you then blame the paint manufacture if paint failed after you applied it? Would it then be deemed impossible to re manufacture and as impossible to buy new everyone should have to make their own? I have these on my car and one came lose so i peeled it off and used mastic. My paint isn't peeling off mine and have nothing wrong with them. I certainly don't want to deter others from buying something i am most happy with i feel i recieved a real bargin and think i got value for money.

quote Originally posted by Australian: Lets assume this was resolved by replacing with unpainted windows that you could finish as you please. What would you do? Would you use acrylic paint with acrylic window as you know full well he didn't choose enamel? Would you then blame the paint manufacture if paint failed after you applied it? Would it then be deemed impossible to re manufacture and as impossible to buy new everyone should have to make their own? I have these on my car and one came lose so i peeled it off and used mastic. My paint isn't peeling off mine and have nothing wrong with them. I certainly don't want to deter others from buying something i am most happy with i feel i recieved a real bargin and think i got value for money.

I am happy yours have not failed I get it.. I really do.

If the Windows I had were maybe back painted with something more substantial or actually had chemically bonded ink... they might just be on still on the car, But they weren't and they aren't....

The pictures speak for themselves.

I would not want another set even if offered unpainted. It's best to just spend the extra cash and get a better quality product.

quote Originally posted by deezil: I would not want another set even if offered unpainted. It's best to just spend the extra cash and get a better quality product.

Easier said than done...Who offers a better quality product?? It would be great to know if the original molds still exist, but they are probably long gone.

Did the ones you bought have the dot matrix pattern on it? If so, they had to be silk screened onto the panel. There's no way to spray pant that on as accurately. I bought mine from ebay too. Not yet installed. But I can tell they aren't spray painted.

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SSFiero@Aol.com 87 Gt-5spd-62k miles.

Donno. Probably won't find anything close to the stock look except for I think Chris's Windows. (i think his name is Chris). But I doubt I would use those if they have a painted backing also.

Only other option is fiberglass parts and mechanically fix them to the car.

So I guess I will either save up for nos windows or go with a fiberglass replacement that doesn't look stock.