quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The biggest red lights came after I was able to build my first few 3800 cars back in 08... The fact that a dumb kid like me ended up engineering circles around this "master" was a joke if you ask me. while some here did not apprciate my "attacks" on him it was really just more for a comparison. I look around now and I notice that NOTHING he did for the 3800 community was worth enough to last passed his reign... none of his methods or tricks are even used any more, which is proof the way he did things was just a mess.... I have always said and will always say he was "looksfastfieros" not "fastfieros".... You paid 8000 for painted engine parts to get a "broken in some way" pile of 3800 swap car, if you actually got one.

Come on man....I gotta say that your swaps are no where in the same ball park with Loyde's work when he was actually doing it. People paid him to make the swaps come out the way they did not to make them the fastest. If the customer wanted a good looking car that was also fast then he could make it happen. While he did not tune the cars to squeeze 100% of the HP out of them he did that for a reason. Between Loyde and Skitime they are what started the clean 3800SC installs in the Fiero community so I would say he did a lot for the Fiero community before things went south. I can say that for myself he showed me a lot about swapping the 3800 into a Fiero and he is the reason I can do an install that is as clean as it can be. While I do not give him all the credit as I just soaked up what he had to offer and went with it he is the one that was willing to offer the advice and answer any of my questions. To make this simple...Posted pictures of your best swap and let everyone decide on which one they would choose.....

I am not defending Loyde for scamming all the people he did as it was wrong for sure and I hate that things turned out the way it did for him and all others. But I will not let someone come in and talk BS about someone that is pure horse **** .....

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Come on man....I gotta say that your swaps are no where in the same ball park with Loyde's work when he was actually doing it. People paid him to make the swaps come out the way they did not to make them the fastest. If the customer wanted a good looking car that was also fast then he could make it happen. While he did not tune the cars to squeeze 100% of the HP out of them he did that for a reason. Between Loyde and Skitime they are what started the clean 3800SC installs in the Fiero community so I would say he did a lot for the Fiero community before things went south. I can say that for myself he showed me a lot about swapping the 3800 into a Fiero and he is the reason I can do an install that is as clean as it can be. While I do not give him all the credit as I just soaked up what he had to offer and went with it he is the one that was willing to offer the advice and answer any of my questions. To make this simple...Posted pictures of your best swap and let everyone decide on which one they would choose..... I am not defending Loyde for scamming all the people he did as it was wrong for sure and I hate that things turned out the way it did for him and all others. But I will not let someone come in and talk BS about someone that is pure horse **** .....

+1 to you and it is hard when you are dealing with a Narcissist like DH. He is something isn't he and I have seen his dusty dirty engines. Rick B

When I first got into Fieros I called Loyde about a swap but could tell by talking on the phone I never wanted to give him a dime. I do have to say his swaps were nice that he did do and he made them look as good as they ran. I ended up going another route with someone more trusted but there stuff I got was junk and just got the job done. One thing I liked about Loyde, he would not just copy others work and sell it he would design parts and machine them himself. To bad he turned out the way he did.

I should just start paiting dog turds in 350z blue and install them into shoes and sell them if you people are so nerded out over "clean".

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I should just start paiting dog turds in 350z blue and install them into shoes and sell them if you people are so nerded out over "clean".

Unsure 100% what you are talking about......But taking an extra day to clean things up and add a little paint isnt that hard and not very expensive.....And in the end your swap not only runs good but looks good...Not that hard to do......

Attention to detail on any job goes a long ways.

People notice and remember this.

I've been around Fieros long enough to have interacted with Loyde over the phone and email. The fact that he would give 1-2 word answers on emails asking for details rang warning bells.

What's the story with Focoa though? I've not heard about it. I always wondered why we don't have something like BMWCCA, or PCA, etc.

Also was there a time when Fiero's were considered cool and worshipped by the general public? or were they always a punch line, like they are today?

I try to make my swaps as clean as I can (layout wise) without going overboard with my small budget that I had. I will say it's somewhat difficult to make a 4.9 swap clean but I think I did a decent job on my 3800 N/A.

I also have more respect for swaps that look nice and clean, not ones with wires and hoses everywhere, and mounts that looks they were welded by a 5 year old.

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: Also was there a time when Fiero's were considered cool and worshipped by the general public? or were they always a punch line, like they are today?

From what I remember, there was some grumbling about the Fiero being more commuter than sports car, but it compared favorably with other cars at the time. Maybe it was my age at the time (teenager, and I talked mainly to teenagers), but most everyone I knew liked them, and several people wanted them. It may have been my first new car purchase, if it had still been in production in 1991!

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: ... Also was there a time when Fiero's were considered cool and worshipped by the general public? or were they always a punch line, like they are today?

The first year's sales wildly exceeded predictions, if I remember correctly. Everybody wanted one.
Seems like I remember they had to limit employee purchases because the employees were snapping up so many of them that there weren't enough for the general public.

I waited for the V6...

Most people who start out in a small buisness start out with good intentions. The real issue is things get out of hand and when it goes south the true person comes out and their actions or inactions speak loud.

Normally hen you deal with anyone that is a small buisness you are taking a risk so you need to protect yourself in any of these dealings. This was way my FOCOA membership was paid a year at a time.

There was not one damn thing wrong with a Fiero Club being run as a private buisness. But it takes someone a lot more organized ethicall than Phil ever was. I had been to the meets and even been to his so called headquarters and it was not what many think. For the most his place in California was just a jumbled mess.

Gloria for the most held the club together and took care of the members. When she was hurt in a crash and unable to deal with the members Phil was in over his head. He as a blow hard and at most of the national meets a drunk [His rambling at the dinner at the Silverdome was a real mess and sad]

Too often in the car hobby people like this come along and damage things for others that could do a wonderful job.

The fact is the best Shelby Club in the country is a private company and has been for years.. They have two guys who run it and have served the members well. The fact is for a Fiero club to make it on a national level would take a private venture and someone willing to work hard for little money. THis is why we have had no national club that has lasted very long. All these start up clubs we have seen were pipe dreams as too many cheifs and too little indians. Also Phil stole the trust of many that only time can erase to gain the trust of new Fiero owners down the road that have no bad taste in their mouths from the past failures.

As for Loyde. I have seen the warning signs ahead with the many post but people still went to him because they needed what he offered if they could get it. It was a bad catch 22 here as where else could you get the needed items to make you engine work.

Again Loyde has made it difficult for others who may be legit in offering a service to the Fiero community as few may trust them to do what they could do.

FOCOA just hit a wall. I was a member (renewed yearly) way back in the day, and enjoyed many aspects of the club. I liked to get the quarterly magazines (when they were arriving on time). I also benefited from ordering a couple parts from them. Also was to the Columbus OH national, which was a fun time seeing all the other Fieros, members, etc.

However, I could tell things were not going well when magazines started coming late. Then not at all. I remember one coming as a "combined" issue. I think that was the last year I renewed, as it seemed things were going down hill. I also think that was about or right before I found PFF and joined here.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: Normally hen you deal with anyone that is a small business you are taking a risk so you need to protect yourself in any of these dealings.

There, I fixed it.

This is true of any dealings, and not limited to small businesses or even just consumer purchasing. But life without risk also does not exist.

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: It was also told to me years ago that Phill Huff conned Fred Scaduto, creator of the original Automoda convertible conversion tops, into moving Fred's Automoda-making equipment to Phil's shop space in California. Phil then locked the doors and went on vacation for a few weeks, leaving Fred without a way to make an income, so he was forced to borrow money from relatives and move back to Italy(?). Phil then attempted to make the Automoda tops himself, failing miserably, and leaving the approximate total made at about 35 kits. If I'm remembering any of this incorrectly, please feel free to chime in with known facts...

Wow, that's a bit of info I wasn't aware of. If true, it doesn't get much lower than that. I wonder whos version I have, Scadutos or Huffs? Any way to tell?

I read this while drinking a Ginger ale - DK, you owe me a new keyboard... has anyone ever had Ginger ale come out thru the nose? It burns!

I got a good laugh there, thanks DK.

Anyway, Loyde had a the cleanest install going, and they were dependable to boot. If things had not gond south, I would had loved to pay him to complete a sawp for me. It is really too bad that he could not keep his pormises to his customers. It is unexcusable, no matter what the reason. Once you take money, you are obligated, and nothing can excuse not getting done as promised.

There was a lot of potential there.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The biggest red lights came after I was able to build my first few 3800 cars back in 08... The fact that a dumb kid like me ended up engineering circles around this "master" was a joke if you ask me. while some here did not apprciate my "attacks" on him it was really just more for a comparison. I look around now and I notice that NOTHING he did for the 3800 community was worth enough to last passed his reign... none of his methods or tricks are even used any more, which is proof the way he did things was just a mess.... I have always said and will always say he was "looksfastfieros" not "fastfieros".... You paid 8000 for painted engine parts to get a "broken in some way" pile of 3800 swap car, if you actually got one.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: The Lincoln collection of materials belonged to Phils parents, which he inherited when they passed. Rather tha store that memoriabilia in a warehouse, it was lent to this museum. So no money you believe he "stole" went to this collection.

Larry. I hope that you are not defending Phil Huff. The man is a criminal and he belongs in prison.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Carver1: I always wondered why someone would give thousands of dollars to someone before they started, let alone finished any work? Maybe I am just old, but I always wait til the job is finished before collecting payment. The same applies if I am the customer. Show me a finished product, and I will pay you. Is that too simple?

This is how most businesses are run. As someone said earlier the car is all the security the shop needs. My car has been to Archie's shop twice and he didn't ask for a penny in advance.

As much as I hate to say it, I've been taken to the cleaners by paying first. The problem is, when it's custom stuff, most shops are making you pay a hefty up front now. There are parts that need to be bought and other costs incurred by the shop. While I'd like to say it's better that they cover these things, then recoupe the money when the car is done, I'm sure shops have been burnt too. Imagine putting $20,000 worth of parts and labor into a $5,000 car, and then have the owner bail and disappear, leaving you with a car you'll be lucky to sell for $12,500. This is what the shop owners have to face. Personally, as a consumer, I've learned my lesson. This is a no win situation if ANYTHING goes wrong on either side. I won't be doing this again with another car.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: As much as I hate to say it, I've been taken to the cleaners by paying first. The problem is, when it's custom stuff, most shops are making you pay a hefty up front now. There are parts that need to be bought and other costs incurred by the shop. While I'd like to say it's better that they cover these things, then recoupe the money when the car is done, I'm sure shops have been burnt too. Imagine putting $20,000 worth of parts and labor into a $5,000 car, and then have the owner bail and disappear, leaving you with a car you'll be lucky to sell for $12,500. This is what the shop owners have to face. Personally, as a consumer, I've learned my lesson. This is a no win situation if ANYTHING goes wrong on either side. I won't be doing this again with another car.

I don't trust shops to buy the right custom parts, either. If you're paying a shop for labor to do custom install work, the cost of parts should basically be completely out of their hands, and you should be walking in with most, if not all, of the parts needed for the custom work. It will save a lot of trouble on both ends.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I should just start paiting dog turds in 350z blue and install them into shoes and sell them if you people are so nerded out over "clean".

Isn't this your swap?

I know this is wandering of topic but......

First off.......Anyone who would pay 100% up front, for a project, to someone they met on the Internet is partially at fault for what happens to him.

That being said........

quote Originally posted by jscott1: This is how most businesses are run. As someone said earlier the car is all the security the shop needs. My car has been to Archie's shop twice and he didn't ask for a penny in advance.

I have to disagree.

Jonathon, Your case is different than most. You already had a lot of money invested in your car & had already been screwed by a few paint/body shops. Most of what we put into it was labor (plus a few parts). I trusted you & I knew you & that was the security I needed. So we didn't need a big down payment.

This post is not directed a you Jonathon, it's directed at anyone who might think a shop should finance their project car.

"The car is all the security the shop needs" is so wrong. I've had times where we had up to 4 major projects going on in the shop at the same time. Should I have $200K or $300K invested as an interest free loan to build someone else a car? Yes the car is security but it doesn't pay the bills. The only security the shop has, then when do you take those parts you installed in a customer car & sell them on Ebay for 50% of what they cost the shop to purchase? Some of the projects have/were in process for 2 years or more. There is no shop, especially a shop that works on Fieros, that can afford to pay for parts & labor to finance a project until the big check comes in when it's all done. Just no way.

Can you get some home construction firm to build your dream home & wait until it's done to get payment?.... no you can't. A contractor who is building a home on his money is a speculator & he's going to sell it to the highest bidder when it's finshed.

How many times have you heard (or seen posts) from members of this forum who when they hear what some kit or part costs, they say "That's more than I paid for my Fiero"

Rule of thumb, No contractor is going to allow himself to have more invested in your car, or house, or speed boat than you do.

The only people who might be able to have more invested in your car than you do are individuals who are working on your car part time in his home shop.

Call the best hot rod shop in your area & see if he'll finance a project for you.

Respectfully submitted.

Archie

quote Originally posted by InTheLead: Isn't this your swap?

That would be DarkHorizons personal swap...LOL

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Come on man....I gotta say that your swaps are no where in the same ball park with Loyde's work when he was actually doing it. People paid him to make the swaps come out the way they did not to make them the fastest. If the customer wanted a good looking car that was also fast then he could make it happen. While he did not tune the cars to squeeze 100% of the HP out of them he did that for a reason. Between Loyde and Skitime they are what started the clean 3800SC installs in the Fiero community so I would say he did a lot for the Fiero community before things went south. I can say that for myself he showed me a lot about swapping the 3800 into a Fiero and he is the reason I can do an install that is as clean as it can be. While I do not give him all the credit as I just soaked up what he had to offer and went with it he is the one that was willing to offer the advice and answer any of my questions. To make this simple...Posted pictures of your best swap and let everyone decide on which one they would choose..... I am not defending Loyde for scamming all the people he did as it was wrong for sure and I hate that things turned out the way it did for him and all others. But I will not let someone come in and talk BS about someone that is pure horse **** .....

I know you and I have bumped heads a few times, but I absolutely agree with you. Loyde did some amazing work. I don't know what it is about Fieros. We get these super star builders every now and then. Unfortunately, many end up fading away and or ripping off many in the process. Many of us can build a car, we just cant run a business (this includes me).

quote Originally posted by LAMBO: Wow, that's a bit of info I wasn't aware of. If true, it doesn't get much lower than that. I wonder whos version I have, Scadutos or Huffs? Any way to tell?

If you have a finished, working Automoda conversion top, I'd say it'd have to be a Scaduto - from what I recall being told (if I'm remembering correctly) it was the main top arch that was the most difficult piece to make, so I don't even know if Phill Huff was successful in making a single full kit. someone else with more behind-the-scenes knowledge would have to chime in here.

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Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com

1988 Fiero Formula - Automoda convertible
repainted PPG Ferrari 'Giallo Modena' yellow

response to Archie,

You are a completely different animal when it comes to custom work. You have a reputation, and a great one at that.

Would I give you $5000 and my car, then cross my fingers waiting for it to be done? Most likely...

If I was your first customer? Nahh, I'd pass.

A respectable business can get some money up front for a job they have done before, or have a habit of getting things done when expected and correctly.

I could advertise $500 swaps with payment up front, and I bet more than a few would bite. It wouldn't take long for me to get run out of town though!

I've been burnt by a forum member on work that was done with no payment up front. I had no parts invested, just labor, but it still chaps my under carriage. (MstangsBware knows who I am talking about....)
I'm not a business, so I took a chance and got burnt. It's happened before and may happen again, but I get a little smarter each time!

Bankruptcy won't cure his problems like he may think. Anyone that has property in his possession is entitled to it back and has every right to sue even after his bankruptcy declaration.

quote Originally posted by Australian: Bankruptcy won't cure his problems like he may think. Anyone that has property in his possession is entitled to it back and has every right to sue even after his bankruptcy declaration.

He should have to return the cars to the owner but as far as money ,,, nope the money is gone and he is protected by the bankruptcy court , you can not sue him... you can try and contact the court where he filed to try and get your car back but that is about all you can do....

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: If you have a finished, working Automoda conversion top, I'd say it'd have to be a Scaduto - from what I recall being told (if I'm remembering correctly) it was the main top arch that was the most difficult piece to make, so I don't even know if Phill Huff was successful in making a single full kit. someone else with more behind-the-scenes knowledge would have to chime in here.

I have a complete UN-installed kit. And I would have to agree that making the main top arch would be the most difficult part. My targa top panels are steel too, and took some finesse to construct as well.

But back on topic, I had some dealings with Loyde around the time he was getting hooked up with his far-eastern bride to be. My father-in-law and I came very close to buying him out of all his Fiero belongings. I don't know if any of you remember, but he posted on here that he was selling out. It didn't take very many phone conversations to make us leary and back away from the deal.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: As much as I hate to say it, I've been taken to the cleaners by paying first. The problem is, when it's custom stuff, most shops are making you pay a hefty up front now. There are parts that need to be bought and other costs incurred by the shop. While I'd like to say it's better that they cover these things, then recoupe the money when the car is done, I'm sure shops have been burnt too. Imagine putting $20,000 worth of parts and labor into a $5,000 car, and then have the owner bail and disappear, leaving you with a car you'll be lucky to sell for $12,500. This is what the shop owners have to face. Personally, as a consumer, I've learned my lesson. This is a no win situation if ANYTHING goes wrong on either side. I won't be doing this again with another car.

After a PM from a member asking about the current cicrumstances with my car I thought I should clarify. None of what I typed above was directed at Dave (bmwguru) who currently has my car. The shops that ripped me off had nothing to do with him (or Loyde to be honest BUT he did try to solicit me to let him do the swap after I bought my Fiero). I just wanted to make sure no one misconstrued my wording on this. My car is moving along and hopefully will be home soon.

Michael

quote Originally posted by Archie: I have to disagree. Jonathon, Your case is different than most. You already had a lot of money invested in your car & had already been screwed by a few paint/body shops. Most of what we put into it was labor (plus a few parts). I trusted you & I knew you & that was the security I needed. So we didn't need a big down payment. This post is not directed a you Jonathon, it's directed at anyone who might think a shop should finance their project car. " Archie

Hey Archie, thanks for clarifying. I didn't mean to over generalize your business practices... but for anyone reading this I got screwed badly by other shops and I knew that Archie would bring my car back to what it should be and he took care of me. If he had asked for a big down-payment I would have obliged, but he is an outstanding individual and took care of my car and I left 110% satisfied.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Hey Archie, thanks for clarifying. I didn't mean to over generalize your business practices... but for anyone reading this I got screwed badly by other shops and I knew that Archie would bring my car back to what it should be and he took care of me. If he had asked for a big down-payment I would have obliged, but he is an outstanding individual and took care of my car and I left 110% satisfied.

I agree - I trusted Archie and his guys in the past, and I would do so even MORE willingly in the future. I would hand Archie the keys to my car and a wad of money in the future and not even worry. Archie, Rob and Kris did me right on my Automoda top installation (in fact, had I known, I'd have had them do my frame reinforcements as well, although what I had done has worked out fine) and I wish I had more work and money to send their way.

Archie's one of the best.

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Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com

1988 Fiero Formula - Automoda convertible
repainted PPG Ferrari 'Giallo Modena' yellow

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 05-31-2012).]

Having been a Fiero owner since 1992 and a “LIFE TIME” member of FOCOA, I guess I will put in my two cents and that’s about all it is worth. I bought several body, engine and interior parts from “Fiero Phil” and Gloria. The FOCOA was the only game in town and the parts were quality built. Yes, I had the same issue with double bill and lost / slow subscriptions. All these comments are walks down memory lane. I find nothing wrong with someone making a living out of parts swaps and /or repairs; as long as they are honest up front and in the process. I further agree the conscience of FOCOA was Gloria, not Phil. As her health declined so did the FOCOA.
I knew Lloyd as well and he was a close friend to members of the AAFO in San Antonio, or so they and I thought. I am sad that people lost money and it sounds like some lost Fieros. I know that has to be a low sinking sadness and I regret it for you. I even understand the bitterness.
In my 62 years I have learned there are good and bad people, some of the good were once bad and some of bad were once good. That’s life. Pennocks has for the first time has given us a platform where we can share the good and bad across the Fiero community and I for one am very grateful. Thank goodness there are a lot of honest people out there in this community. I will not try to name all the people and companies on Pennocks that I have and will continue to purchase from. I look to members of this forum as well as my friends from AAFO, Bat City Fieros and North Texas Fieros for information and assistance. I salute all the HONEST people and companies out there that support the Fiero owners.
Is the last bad one that will surface, my bet is no. Will I give up and stop doing business with these people, my bet is no. Will I be more careful with each Phil and Lloyd, my bet is yes.
Thanks for letting me ramble!

Mike Parker