I am not a EV car hater and have interest in new technology. I would not be beyond buying a Volt and am waiting to drive one. I have already driven one of GM's Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles and was impressed.

But the fact remains to make a practical car that is more than a golf cart take a lot of time and technology. The bottom line is as much as batteries have improved they are still far from being able to work as they need to to make a car that will fully be able to replace a gas car.

GM has the only real workable system so far with the ICE system ont he Volt. I see as time goes on the range on electric will imporve with better motors and batteries. Cost will also drop with each generation.

Cars like the Testla is only still around as Elon Musk has pumped a lot of money in and suckered a lot of stock buyers. His car while it performs well in the short term is short ranged even in summer less in winter and very very expensive.

Many think the EV1 was the perfect car well if they had really spent any time with one it was not a very practical car and could not be used anywhere it got cold.

We are just at the start of real electric cars but there is a lot of work left to do on them.

I think before anyone thinks they can make a practical electric car they need to read Chevy Volt by Larry Edsal. It covers the history of the work and system of the Volt. Things like a cooling system for the batteries and to warm them in the winter is a great undertaking. The work they did in Aerodynamics to gain a mile is amazing. Tires are even special but at least anyone can buy them today as Goodyear offeres them for all cars now.

The bottom line is there is more to this than just putting a bunch of lap top batteries in series in a Fiero.

If one was to do this they would either start off and run out of money or they will be disapointed in the results.

If this was such a easy thing to do and do well kits would be offered for all cars. That may be something we may see later on but today it is just wishful thinking. One must ask themselves if it were so cheap and easy then why are all the automakers spending billions to develope new technology?

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-20-2011).]

I have looked into this in the past. It isn't cheap but it can be done. If you want cheap, go DC. If you want regenerative braking which will extend your range, then go AC but AC is much more expensive. Here are a few links that I found:

Here is a good article about doing a conversion. A DC conversion will run $8,000-$11,000
http://www.hybridcars.com/d...onversion-25839.html

Here is a kit that will fit a Fiero:
http://www.evparts.com/prod...t-vehicle/ak2124.htm

Electric car conversion specialists:

http://www.electroauto.com/index.html

http://www.grassrootsev.com/

This one is VW specific but they sell a universal kit too:
http://www.e-volks.com/

There is also the Electric Auto Association. You might be able to find a chapter that is close to you. If so, you can go to their meetings and pick the member's brains for ideas:

http://www.electricauto.org/

Here is a blog of a guy converting his Fiero to electric. Lots of great pics but he is a little short on describing what he is doing:
http://www.roboticmayhem.com/fiero



A video of a Fiero electric conversion. This one is good for ideas. It has a very short range of only 25-31 miles.
http://goeving.blogspot.com/

quote Originally posted by sportcoupe: To summarize my long experiment: I tried the hydrogen booster on my '97 jeep with zero increase in mpg. I experimented for 3-4 months and lots of fill-ups. I tried adjusting the MAP, IAC, O2 and CTS signals going into the pcm one at a time and mixing/matching modified signals. No matter what I did the pcm always had more authority over fuel then I could manipulate with the closed loop sensors. IMO, unless you have the ability to reprogram the pcm (or ecu), I couldn't on my jeep, or switch to a carb you will not see any gains from a hydrogen booster.

Well wouldn't the mere fact you're not buying as much gasoline be a plus (and thereby pay for the couple hundred dollar kit eventually)???

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: Well wouldn't the mere fact you're not buying as much gasoline be a plus (and thereby pay for the couple hundred dollar kit eventually)???

If my gas mileage didn't improve then the only way to not buy as much gasoline would be not to drive. Then that would pay for the kit I suppose. If you want to try a hydrogen booster I'll sell you my used kit for $50. It is an exact copy of a smack booster and put out over a liter per minute of hydrogen.

Pictures below.

quote Originally posted by tox1cchicken: I'm looking to build a "wind powered" car. as long as you are driving you don't have to worry about not having wind. all you need is a few dozen or so wind generators. and en electric motor. never have to pay to charge it... :P

Funny you should mention this...
http://www.wired.com/magazi...2/ff_fasterthanwind/

Not quite what you mean but still pretty cool to wrap your brain around.

Back to the EV. Until batteries hold more power than the equivilant amount of gasoline per weight EV are useless. I would also like to add that just because the harmful stuff doesn't come out of a tailpipe doesn't mean an EV doesn't cause damage to the environment.

If you are looking to lower the cost of driving, diesel it. Buy a surplus diesel engine add some really tall gears so 65 is <= 1500 rpm and you would be looking at 70+mpg.

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: I appreciate all the responses so far, and don't take this as an attack TommyRocker, but let's leave the "green" bashing comments out like the polar bear one for example as I made this thread from a financial standpoint not as a "hippie/love the earth/wanna be green to make myself feel good" thread. Once again I want to re-iterate that is not the direction I'd like this thread to go but soley from a financial standpoint/or interest in alternative fuel. Continuing with the alternative fuel point without making a new thread. What about hydrogen? From what I've read it's only a couple hundred dollars to hook up the proper devices/hoses/etc to the existing engine and supposively NO modifications to the engine? Could a duke run off a hydrogen mix as some of these kits I've seen? I have an 88' 5-speed duke as my DD.

The big problem with IC engines is that they're heat engines and inherently inefficient. The best automotive IC motors in production now barely reach, on a perfect day, maybe 30% efficient. That means of the 100% of potential energy you started with in the fuel of choice, 70% is wasted, unused (but paid for) out the tail pipe and radiator as waste heat. It's that "waste" part of the equation that's the problem, and it happens no matter what fuel you burn in the engine. The technology isn't going to experience much more efficiency gains simply because of theoretical limitations.

That being said, the only way to make hydrogen at home would be electrolysis, but that process wastes 50% of the starting energy as waste heat. Then further energy is wasted as heat by compressing the hydrogen enough to carry it onboard the car. An engine would have to be modified to inject the hydrogen and control mixture somehow, so no, a stock engine won't work without significant modifications. Best case scenario, by the time you even turned a wheel you've already lost 85% of your original starting energy amount. Commercial hydrogen is produced using natural gas as a feedstock FWIW.

Regarding cost-efficiency, it's not likely you'll save money in the short run with a conversion to EV. From just a pure dollars and cents point of view you'd be better off buying a used high-mileage vehicle like an old Geo Metro 3-cylinder. However, far more goes into the decision on what to drive than just dollars and cents. If bottom line lifetime costs were the only, or even a significant, part of the buying decision then the only cars sold in this country would be microeconomoboxes like Kias, Hyundais, etc. Yet look around, you see people buying SUVs, station wagons, Mercedes and BMWs, etc. I guarantee you that not a single one of those owners did the math to see how much money they'd save buying their vehicle, and that's because 99.999% of car buyers don't actually do that. And, for those that do, that's fine, because in the end they still end up with what they want, making it win-win for everyone.

I've said it before, to me the biggest benefit to EV is that when gas goes up a buck or two you don't care, and more importantly, probably won't even notice. To me, that benefit is priceless...

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Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: One person here converted to an Olds diesel, Michael Haugh. It did well, though sounded like a typical GM diesel. BMWGuru is doing a TDI conversion that has great promise. However, there's no reason for someone not to do an EV conversion if that's what they want to do. The amount of energy going into talking one person out of it in this thread is interesting.

I will admit I think people who want battery stored electric powered cars & ethanol from corn powered cars have lost all touch with reality, so I am a bit biased.
I agree there is no reason for someone to not do any project they desire…

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: With talks of higher gas prices, and the few electric Fiero threads I've been reading it's really piquing my interest. The few I've seen cost about 10k...not really cheap or really worth it at this point, yet I saw on one electric Fiero conversion site stating "as low as $500"...umm how? So how cheap could you convert a Fiero to electric with say a range of 50 miles? (25 one way is a fair commuter distance)??

From the title of the thread and the OP’s post I feel my comments are on topic. The OP shows concern for gas prices and seems to want a cheap electric vehicle. There is no way to convert a Fiero to EV for $500 unless the owner steals all the stuff he will need or it is given to him. But, then that is sort of like saying NASA built the space shuttle for free because the components were given to them by the tax payers. “There is no such thing as a free lunch.” « this is my point.
If I was concerned about what my commuting costs are going to be I would be buying a diesel. If I wanted to be really frugal I would make my own bio-diesel, too. I feel this would be the easiest way to cut commuting costs, so it’s why I posted.
If I had to have a battery powered EV, that I made myself I would buy an old civic hatchback, dodge omni, or 1st gen rabbit. These cars are light and have the floor space for plenty of batteries. For cheap electricity I’d make a coal fired boiler. The hard part would be making a good turbine. But, I think you could use an APU from helicopter or commercial jet and get the job done. One additional plus would be the electric company would have to purchase the surplus energy you make. Hell you could just make the boiler, turn a profit and use that money for the commute.

quote Originally posted by Primaris: .....There is no way to convert a Fiero to EV for $500 unless the owner steals all the stuff he will need or it is given to him.....

Maybe not but it has been done under $1000.

This link is for the OP, it's not a fiero but it is a budget conversion, maybe it'll give him ideas......

http://www.forkenswift.com/

If one is concerned about waste heat, try steam instead.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.c...m-car-final-edition/

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: *The EV1 original had a 26kWh battery pack with a real-world range of 70+ miles. Typical econobox today gets around 32 mpg, so 26kWh would roughly be equal to two gallons of gas. Note: Modern battery technology yields more than double the range of those first generation EV SLA batteries, so using any modern battery technology will skew the EV benefit even more than proven here.

Funny how the NISSAN Leaf has a 24 kW-h battery and a real world range of about 70+ miles. Marginally better considering the Leaf seats five to the EV-1's two, but you would expect more after 20 years of battery research.

And before anyone chimes in that the Leaf has a 100 mile range I saw with my own eyes the estimated range drop from 96 miles to 72 just by switching on the a/c. And you better believe I would be using a/c in Houston.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Funny how the NISSAN Leaf has a 24 kW-h battery and a real world range of about 70+ miles. Marginally better considering the Leaf seats five to the EV-1's two, but you would expect more after 20 years of battery research. And before anyone chimes in that the Leaf has a 100 mile range I saw with my own eyes the estimated range drop from 96 miles to 72 just by switching on the a/c. And you better believe I would be using a/c in Houston.

Move that car here to Akron in the middle of winter and it will drop even faster. The Leaf is an improvment but still proof that Batteries are not up to the task yet. Now that more development money is being pumped in progress will be faster. The Leaf is just not enough for people here even in a hot summer. It is nothing for us to take off and drive to Columbus and back on a weekend. In a Leaf a one day trip would be three. At least with the Volt you could still do it in one and still take advantage of the battery for the daily drive to work.

I like how many people like to hold up the EV1 as a great car. The truth is it was a very marginal car if you had ever been in one. It had range but not much space for more than two people. The car handled terrible. GM leased them for the most because no one would have paid what it cost to make them. They think the Volt is expensive the EV1 beat it by twice the price.

I am a GM guy through and through. I hope GM can advance electric cars and they have been. Much of what was learned on the EV1 was plowed into the Volt and has made it a better and more realistic car based on present technology.

The key is to get these cars to market even with the poor range and get development money involved. Untill companies invest in these because there is a market it is hard to advance the technology. Kind of like the Chicken and the Egg.

I see the major MFG making some very good advances but companies like Tesla will be lucky to be around in 10 years. Unless they work more with a larger MFG for more volume they will be doomed by the high price per unit.

The bottom line is none of these cars are perfect and none are easy to build. But you have to walk before you run.

It is a shame the govement is cutting back on money to NASA as the space programs and military programs were seeded with money that developed much of the advanced products today. People like to say it was a waste of money to go to the moon. Well the fact is being on the moon was good but the great thing was the technology developed on to get there that has saved so many lives in many ways and even helped us converse here. Much of this would not be here today with out the work done on these programs. If you really want to stimulate an economy then set some abitious programs. The technogy is amazing for the betterment of man and they employ a hell of a lot of people in real job.

Anyway it is early in the game and in time things will imporve. The real key is better batteries.


As for

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Funny how the NISSAN Leaf has a 24 kW-h battery and a real world range of about 70+ miles. Marginally better considering the Leaf seats five to the EV-1's two, but you would expect more after 20 years of battery research. And before anyone chimes in that the Leaf has a 100 mile range I saw with my own eyes the estimated range drop from 96 miles to 72 just by switching on the a/c. And you better believe I would be using a/c in Houston.

Why funny? Oh, you meant that as sarcasm, not humor. Ok then...

I don't know the engineering details of the Leaf, what constraints it has (seats five, must be larger/heavier than the two-seater EV1, eh?) or what electronic accessories it has that didn't exist back then (GPS?) or weren't that common back then (High-powered stereos, etc). It could be something like GM's engineers were just that far ahead of their time (GM has a history of recruiting really good talent, look at Hulki) or it could be that GM covered up their extremely advanced multiphase AC motor technology with patents and isn't allowing anyone else to use it. Wouldn't be the first time that better technology languished in production while less advanced tech from other manufacturers went into the mainstream. Look at VHS vs BETA for example. BETA was arguably superior but Sony's patent strategy kept it relatively undeployed while the open-source VHS consortium took over the consumer market. In any case, the EV-1's range history is well published. Saying it isn't so doesn't make it not so. The fact they did it back then on SLA and later went over 100 routinely with NiMH is documented. The fact that most Americans drive far less than 100 miles a day is documented.

It's been done. It is being done. The real question is, will we lead, or will we follow? Honestly, I'd rather buy an EV from an American company than a Chinese company. Nothing personal against the Chinese, but I'd rather my dollars stayed here.

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Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 03-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Why funny? Oh, you meant that as sarcasm, not humor. Ok then...

Yeah I meant funny as in sarcasm, which is hard to depict on a forum without blatantly stating it.

BEV is not for me. The Harris County Tool Road Just completed the final link of the Sam Houston Tollway, it is now possible to travel 88 miles non-stop while circumnavigating the city. Most likely a Leaf could not do it on one charge.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Yeah I meant funny as in sarcasm, which is hard to depict on a forum without blatantly stating it. BEV is not for me. The Harris County Tool Road Just completed the final link of the Sam Houston Tollway, it is now possible to travel 88 miles non-stop while circumnavigating the city. Most likely a Leaf could not do it on one charge.

Yeah, though I gotta wonder, what's the point of driving around the city non-stop? Our Loop 820 (free road) is 55 miles around the city of Fort Worth, My car can't drive around it 6 times without stopping.

For the majority of people that drive less than 60 miles a day the Leaf would be more than adequate, and so would the Volt running batteries only. For that matter, a used Prius with full EV conversion could do it for half the price of the Volt. If the EV-1 did it no problem.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: On this we can agree. In a truly free market short term profit motives act as a strong deterrent to developing long-term technologies and survival strategies. Will we wait until transportation fuel is $10-50 gallon before starting development on technology that will take 20 years to mature, or do we invest now so that when transportation fuel hits those levels it won't matter to the economy at large? One way is short term profitable, and the other way ensures our long-term survival. One or the other. To me, it seems like an obvious choice.

I think you understood me by saying the EV1 was not a great car. It was very comprimised vs normal cars in many ways. But it was the best EV of the 1990's but that did not take much. It was one of the best funded EV programs to that point sho it should have been the best EV. Also many Green people lower their expectations over the normal car buyer to get the alturnitive power they crave. So what may be wonderful to them would equate to a piece of junk to the average car buyer. To really make it in the market the EV's need to appeal to a majority of buyers and not to a small select group. Secsess will be measured buy accpetance by the non typical buyer. That is the only way you will get the volume to improve price and investment into new better cars.

The EV1 were not made to handle and no I am not expecting sports car handling. The heavy weight even low down on the hard low rolling resistance tires prove to be very poor in the EV1 just and many complained the same on the first Gen Honda Insight. Better tires and a better car have changed that in the Volt.

The cost of the battery alone in the EV1 was put at $20,000-$30,000 1990 dollars and when you factor in the rest of the car many have stated the car would have had to retail at $75,000-$100,000 to sell it out right. Yes GM kept is a prototype and used the fleet for research and publicity that in the end backfired on them. But even if they sold as many as they could at $100,000 it was not going to make a dent in the price problem. Like I said I would still not be suprised if Testla is gone in the future unless they tie in with a larger company. They are now working with Toyota but we have yet to see much of the partnership yet. They can not go on for ever at low volume and high price in marginal quality Lotus chassis. Light weight has a price.

But the EV1 did provide GM a good starting point for the Volt. Much of the driveline work was already done and just had to be updated with new technology. The batteries while still lacking today are much better. The tires now have low resistance but today with compounding have good year round grip. Things like the heating and cooling system for the battery is something the EV1 never had that has helped with year round cold or hot use of the Volt.

In fact the ICE system on the Volt is due to the fact the EV1 was not for most drivers as range was limited and once you are out of power you had better like where you are. Range axiety is real with the majority of buyers and it needs address till the better batteries come along. That is going to be the main hurtle for the Leaf as onece the Leaf is dead you are going to be were you are for a good while. Once better batteries are developed that can provide more range most people will not have any interest in a pure electric car. The Ed Begly Jr's will be happy but most others will not like to own a car that limits their travels.

The Volt is only a step in the right direction to start to sell the general public on electric cars. To make it an electric car needs to drive and perform like a normal car. It also need to handle like a normal car and provide at least 300 miles of range with out a recharge in even cold climates. Finally it needs to be affordable. We have 2 of the 4 real goals the better batteries are obtainable with more investment and research. The price will drop with more volume and that is the goal of the Leaf and Volt. If you don't sell them companies will not invest to make better and cheaper parts or systems.

The next issue in some areas will be recharging the cars even off peak. If there is a large volume of cars charging and we do not improve our electic grid there could be issues later on. Windmills are not going to save the world and neither will solar. Rolling brown outs in the summer are common in places now and we are continuing to increase or needs for more electic power even with out adding the cars to the issue.

They are already working on the 3rd gen Volt. With the second and third gens we will see a price drop and a increase in range. These cars are not that far off and we will see inprovments in these cars much like Apple has done with a new Generation of I phones almost yearly. Also software updates will be applied to the older cars to improve them.

I am looking forward to my first Volt drive. I have only sat in one as of now and it is much like a normal car in most ways. It will vw a stepping stone to the future where the ICE system can be removed and we can see a normal range with batteries.

I also have time in the Hydrogen Equinox. Its drive system is similar to the Volts but it generates it's own power. It drove very well. It felt and handeled like a normal Nox. The only draw back is fueling . If we had more places to fill and a faster way to fill it would be a revolution.

I would also watch for the new Volt small van. GM showed it in China early last year and Chevy has said it will be part of the Gen 2 system if all goes as planned. Right now a lot is getting delayed due to the problems in Japan.

For the most part I am on you side on most of this. I have no issues with EV cars. I want them to make it in todays market. The fact is there is still more work to do. We are not there yet but we are closer.

I just have been around the EV1 and know what it was and could do. I was there in Detroit when it was rolled out. It was a giant step in the right direction but it was at a time when you could get few people to invest in the technology as there was no market for the car. As long as gas was cheap few people were interested in a car that could not do what they had in the garage. Not everyone is out to help save the enviroment and that was it's grestest selling point at the time. I am just glad all the money they spent on it is now going to good use with the Volt.

The Volt was never intended to save GM short term. What it is intended to do is help form the way electric cars are built and help provide a market that can draw investment to make better EV cars. WIth out investment in the Volt or Leaf development will grind to a slow pace like it has been. Think of the Volt as the Mercury project. We still have Gemini and Applo to come yet.


FYI look for Chevy to offer a Full electric car in the near future. Unless things change they have been looking to that as an option.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-22-2011).]

I stopped reading about halfway through your post because it's obvious your information is outdated and in most cases just plain wrong from the get-go. I've tried to offer you better, more accurate knowledge but you're refusing it; for whatever reason, you'd prefer to know only incorrect information. I don't see any point in trying to improve your knowledge at this point, so I'm moving on.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Yeah, though I gotta wonder, what's the point of driving around the city non-stop? Our Loop 820 (free road) is 55 miles around the city of Fort Worth, My car can't drive around it 6 times without stopping. For the majority of people that drive less than 60 miles a day the Leaf would be more than adequate, and so would the Volt running batteries only. For that matter, a used Prius with full EV conversion could do it for half the price of the Volt. If the EV-1 did it no problem.

Since we are all car people, you can understand wanting to take an 88 mile cruise just for fun. Also, when I'm taking a shakedown ride on one of my cars, I like to put some miles on it without getting too far from home. I've done the Sam Houston loop twice, (but never non-stop as that was not possible until now).

As for the Leaf, I test drove one, and for people with short predictable commutes in moderate climate it would be fine. But for me, with mostly highway miles, and hot Houston climate, 60 miles would be pushing it. And there are Zero level 3 chargers anywhere, (the supposed 80% charge in 30 minutes that is so heavily advertised). So once you leave the house, you have all the power you are going to have for that day. I personally can't deal with that. I don't have range anxiety, I have range paranoia.

So for now the Leaf is very much a niche car despite NISSAN positioning it as a car for the masses. I would bet money that they will be building Jukes and Sentras at that plant in Tennessee before too long, despite the DOE grant to enable the Leaf production.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Since we are all car people, you can understand wanting to take an 88 mile cruise just for fun. Also, when I'm taking a shakedown ride on one of my cars, I like to put some miles on it without getting too far from home. I've done the Sam Houston loop twice, (but never non-stop as that was not possible until now). As for the Leaf, I test drove one, and for people with short predictable commutes in moderate climate it would be fine. But for me, with mostly highway miles, and hot Houston climate, 60 miles would be pushing it. And there are Zero level 3 chargers anywhere, (the supposed 80% charge in 30 minutes that is so heavily advertised). So once you leave the house, you have all the power you are going to have for that day. I personally can't deal with that. I don't have range anxiety, I have range paranoia. So for now the Leaf is very much a niche car despite NISSAN positioning it as a car for the masses. I would bet money that they will be building Jukes and Sentras at that plant in Tennessee before too long, despite the DOE grant to enable the Leaf production.

It's clear the Leaf is not the EV for you, and that's fine, I would not recommend that you buy one. It may be that due to the issue with range anxiety that no EV will ever be suitable for you, and that's fine also.

Not every manufacturer makes vehicles that meet everyone's needs; there's just too much variety in individual driving habits and other tangible (and non-tangible) needs and goals. For instance, the Fiero does not meet the needs of a family with children because it can only carry two people legally. The Leaf easily meets my current needs and I'd buy one tomorrow if I was willing to tie up that much of my cash. I never assume that because the Fiero works for me that it would work for everyone else, or that some other vehicle that won't work for me (such as a large SUV) is equally not suitable for everyone else. What I do wish is that the technology is given a fair chance to succeed and not be subject to all of the negative stereotyping and politicization that seems to surround it today.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I stopped reading about halfway through your post because it's obvious your information is outdated and in most cases just plain wrong from the get-go. I've tried to offer you better, more accurate knowledge but you're refusing it; for whatever reason, you'd prefer to know only incorrect information. I don't see any point in trying to improve your knowledge at this point, so I'm moving on.

You need to look at the whole pricture not just what you want. It is true one car will never fit all needs but the fact is cars like this need to appeal to a much larger group than you have now.

Range is an issue, Cost is an issue but one thing most of the general public has yet to grasp Charging times for the Leaf.

Charge times It takes about ~30 minutes to 80% at a 480 volt quick-charge station. Starting from a depleted battery, ~7 hours at 220/240V (depending on amperage), about 20 hours at 110/120V.

Yes there is a fast charge station you can buy that can do 80% charge in 30 min. One problem the stations can cost $2000+ to install. In some cased many are paying much more to install some of these system. Tax credits will only last so long so one can not rely on those forever.

You can quote all you like what ever you want but you need more volume to secede than you have now. That means you need to pull more from the mainstream and that means more people that drive far from home and people who live in cold places. To do that you need better Batteries.

The Leaf is like the Volt only a first step and the goal is to make a car that would appeal to a large majority of buyers. The major step to do that is better batteries and more range no matter where you live. This is also why GM and Nissan will continue to spend Billions in development as they need to expand the market. While you may be happy where cars like the Leaf are they are not.

As for my charging data above you can dispute that if you like.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: You need to look at the whole pricture not just what you want. It is true one car will never fit all needs but the fact is cars like this need to appeal to a much larger group than you have now. Range is an issue, Cost is an issue but one thing most of the general public has yet to grasp Charging times for the Leaf. Charge times It takes about ~30 minutes to 80% at a 480 volt quick-charge station. Starting from a depleted battery, ~7 hours at 220/240V (depending on amperage), about 20 hours at 110/120V. Yes there is a fast charge station you can buy that can do 80% charge in 30 min. One problem the stations can cost $2000+ to install. In some cased many are paying much more to install some of these system. Tax credits will only last so long so one can not rely on those forever.

For now EVs appeal to a small group of enthusiasts...much smaller than the Fiero niche ever was. For EVs to succeed as a mass market car the charging infrastructure must be in place. But despite a lot of promises and agreements, I have yet to see a single level 2 or level 3 station. And in all of Houston there are only 10 relatively worthless level 1 charging stations.

I nearly had a guy from NRG nearly take a swing at me at the Houston Auto show when I challenged him on this. They keep spouting off on how you can get this 80% charge in 30 minutes, but these chargers don't exist. He said how yes they do, there is one, at their facility, and it's not accessible to the public, and it's not UL certified, so they can't plug it in... in other words it doesn't exist.

Even JazzMan who appears to love the idea of a Leaf is turned off by the price. There is something less than appealing about a car that costs more and delivers less than what you would expect. The Volt at least performs as well as a real car.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: For now EVs appeal to a small group of enthusiasts...much smaller than the Fiero niche ever was. For EVs to succeed as a mass market car the charging infrastructure must be in place. But despite a lot of promises and agreements, I have yet to see a single level 2 or level 3 station. And in all of Houston there are only 10 relatively worthless level 1 charging stations. I nearly had a guy from NRG nearly take a swing at me at the Houston Auto show when I challenged him on this. They keep spouting off on how you can get this 80% charge in 30 minutes, but these chargers don't exist. He said how yes they do, there is one, at their facility, and it's not accessible to the public, and it's not UL certified, so they can't plug it in... in other words it doesn't exist. Even JazzMan who appears to love the idea of a Leaf is turned off by the price. There is something less than appealing about a car that costs more and delivers less than what you would expect. The Volt at least performs as well as a real car.

I agree 100% with you.

The point is car like the Volt and Leaf need to stimulate production and create a market to get companies to invest in making better batteries and other systems for these cars.

The EV is not unlike the original start of the Automobile. The first cars were not great and had issues like getting gasoline and they all were expensive. Only once there were several models on the road did the infrastructure start to be invested.

This is where the Volt is important. GM has invested into a car that even the average auto buyer could live with and not have to always worry where he or she will plug in. This is a way to get the foot in the door and in time we will get more stations and better batteries in more efficent cars. But if we just relied on small companies like Tesla to make these cars the needed investments would never happen.

In time these cars will get cheaper as more are made. GM has already stated each new gen of the Volt will drop in price. The new Gens will come faster than most new models normally would.

There is a new book out on the Volt by Larry Edsal. [what a name for a Auto Writer. The book cover the creation of the Volt and the many things they needed to address and why. Many of the things they cover not only apply to the building of the car but the general marketing of EV cars to a larger group of buyers. They want need to sell these to more than the automotive equivilanet to Vegan.

It also cover the many interesting things like how and what they had to address in many systems people never think about. Even the small little aero things that added up to more than 7 miles in range. It is not by fat a technical manual but it does point out many things people never consider when they think EV cars.

The real main goal to bring wider appeal is a EV car the drove like a normal car and could still be the only car you needed to own. In other words something that could be electric daily but if you needed to drive to Uncle Daves Funneral you did not have to rent or in the case of the Leaf get a loaner car from the dealer.

Like I have said there is still a lot of work to do and in time things will get better and cheaper. This is not really unlike Computers or even the new I phones. New Gens will come fast get better and cheaper with each one.

The one real issue is the Charging stations will be difficult for many cities to install. They are neither cheap nor do many have the money to install. This I feel will fall to private companies that could install them like the phone company installed phone booths.

I have even seen plans where some Big Box stores are looking to offer recharge stations where they can offer you a free charge if you come in and spend money. Best Buys has looked at this and I am sure Wal Mart would also be a prime chain to do something like this. Either way until there are more cars they will not invest in such system and that is why the Volt and Leaf are needed. It all comes back to the chicken and the egg.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Even JazzMan who appears to love the idea of a Leaf is turned off by the price. There is something less than appealing about a car that costs more and delivers less than what you would expect. The Volt at least performs as well as a real car.

I am not turned off by the price, Jonathan, not one bit. I just don't feel comfortable spending that much money on *anything* in this economy, car or otherwise. If I was in the market for a new car in that price range I'd pick the Leaf over any other car made. In fact, if I had the choice of spending that much on a Leaf or less on something else I'd still get the Leaf. I don't need a charging station because my driving habits, like the majority of American's, fit perfectly with home charging.

As to someone wanting to take a swing at you, I don't honestly think that would have happened. I do suspect that the person in question was getting fairly annoyed at all the people making negative comments about the Leaf to him. When people repeatedly come up to you and inject their opinions about how dangerous and crappy and prone to catching on fire the Fiero is, over and over again, how unsuitable it is for most people because it only seats two, can't pull a trailer, has a tiny unusable trunk, and breaks down all the time, how does that make you feel? The first few times it was funny, after a while you start understanding the ignorance of people who've never experienced a Fiero (yes, experienced!). Eventually your patience becomes very tried, so that when you snap at the 434th person to tell you how his third cousin's second wife's sister's Fiero broke down because it was a piece of junk, that person thinks you're a hair-triggered whacko.

I've said it before: The biggest hurdle the Leaf (and other EVs) has to overcome is the poor economy. The next biggest hurdle is the demonization/politicization of anything that can be perceived as "green" because as we all know, [sarcasm]only ecoterrorists and envirowhackos drive cars like that. Good red-blooded Amerikins only drive gas-burning cars, huzaaah!...[/sarcasm]

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 03-25-2011).]

There is a group of people here at work that are heavily involved in EVs and conversions. When I was looking into it, regardless of the car I chose, the cost to do the conversion always came in around $10k for 100 mile range (enough for a round trip to work plus some extra for a buffer.) There are several cars on the market that are less than this new and will do everything better.

The only cost effective car, regardless of the source of power (gas, electricity, hydrogen, propane, LNG, etc.) is the cheapest, highest MPG car that has enough seats and cargo capacity to meet your basic needs and will go the speed limit. Anything beyond that is wasted money. Buy used and the costs just keep improving. Arguing about the cost effectiveness of any of the new EVs is futile.

My conclusion was that building or buying an EV would only be for the sake of playing with one (whatever the reason) and not because there was any cost savings. There isn't. Zero. Zip. Nada. Squat. Get a tiny KIA or Hyundai and it will be the cheapest. Buy one used ...

Since I am still willing to waste money by buying a car that is more than I need, the EV will be a viable option but only if I accept I am wasting money.

But we have to start somewhere and the Volt, Leaf, etc. do kick-start the manufacturing processes and development to shift towards electricity from gas. Someday in the future we will be arguing if the new earth magnetic field induction car is really worth it over our old, run-down and busted EV cars with batteries. Naw, I'll just stick with this cheap and rusted out EV ...

quote Originally posted by TK: There is a group of people here at work that are heavily involved in EVs and conversions. When I was looking into it, regardless of the car I chose, the cost to do the conversion always came in around $10k for 100 mile range (enough for a round trip to work plus some extra for a buffer.) There are several cars on the market that are less than this new and will do everything better. The only cost effective car, regardless of the source of power (gas, electricity, hydrogen, propane, LNG, etc.) is the cheapest, highest MPG car that has enough seats and cargo capacity to meet your basic needs and will go the speed limit. Anything beyond that is wasted money. Buy used and the costs just keep improving. Arguing about the cost effectiveness of any of the new EVs is futile. My conclusion was that building or buying an EV would only be for the sake of playing with one (whatever the reason) and not because there was any cost savings. There isn't. Zero. Zip. Nada. Squat. Get a tiny KIA or Hyundai and it will be the cheapest. Buy one used ... Since I am still willing to waste money by buying a car that is more than I need, the EV will be a viable option but only if I accept I am wasting money. But we have to start somewhere and the Volt, Leaf, etc. do kick-start the manufacturing processes and development to shift towards electricity from gas. Someday in the future we will be arguing if the new earth magnetic field induction car is really worth it over our old, run-down and busted EV cars with batteries. Naw, I'll just stick with this cheap and rusted out EV ...

Looking around the parking lot and the roads outside, I've come to the realization that the number of people who buy a car based solely on cost-effectiveness are a tiny, tiny minority of all car buyers. Compared to the price of *any* SUV a $10K conversion is dirt cheap. I routinely see vehicles with $10K just in wheels and tires around here. I guess one person's waste is another person's treasure.

quote Originally posted by 30+mpg: If one is concerned about waste heat, try steam instead. http://www.jaylenosgarage.c...m-car-final-edition/

Steam still has some waste heat unless you use a compound design. aka the first engine's waste steam is used in the second engine.

That being said steam would be more efficient then most IC engines...gas anyway. not sure on diesel.

Here is a neat video I ran across today. While we all know the Volt is not a track time car some internet EV fans took one to Laguna Seca for a few laps in pure electric mode.

The car ran pretty good and showed it was far from the golf cart that some think it is. I had wished he kept the window closed as the wind buffeting over one open window on many of todays aero sensitive cars can be anoying.

For what it is worth here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watc...ayer_embedded#at=361

I did time one lap at 2 min 14 seconds. Not a record but not bad for a little Cruze based car, non performance tires on only batteries.

We have just completed our conversion from gas to electric using used forklift parts and used batteries. We completed the conversion for just under $1000, $300 for the donor car,$600 for the machinist for the motor coupler and $100 misc wire bits. The Fiero passed it's safety test with no problems. We had the car licensed and plated the following week. We have had a few road tests, trying to find the actual range per charge. We are averaging about 40-50 km's (24.8-31.7 miles) per charge with a charging cost that has averaged about $0.67 and taking about 3 hours to charge from a standard 115 volt ac plug rated at 15 amps. The top speed averages about 80 km per hour (49.71 miles) The range and speed performance is not bad for used UPS (uninterrupted power supply) batteries from a computer back up system. We hope in the near future to purchase lithium batteries which will most definitely increase the range to about 140 km (87 miles), improve the top speed to about 100 km per hour and have a battery life between 5 and 10 years.

The whole conversion was completed in my drive way with no garage and with basic tools. if you have a good donor car, the time and are pretty resoursful, you can convert one fairly cheaply. In regards to the EV-1's also not GM did not try to sell them, they crushed them all except for the one in the automoble musium, even that one was striped of its battery pack and made into a paperweight.

Cool. Good range and performance figures for non-EV parts in a heavy car, for sure... What are you looking at for Li batteries? I'm assuming LiFEPO4, right? I'm assuming the motor you used is DC? Is it brushed?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Cool. Good range and performance figures for non-EV parts in a heavy car, for sure... What are you looking at for Li batteries? I'm assuming LiFEPO4, right? I'm assuming the motor you used is DC? Is it brushed?

Thank you for your comments, LiFEPO4 would be best but I think we will have to go with lead again as we are also converting a honda crv for me wife and need the coin for that.

quote Originally posted by Ruffy: BAD IDEA! way to many people think a full electric car is the future. i really dont see where there common sense is. think about it. the cost of batteries that last about 5 years max. thats like replacing a new motor in a car every 5 years. thats stupid! not only that but the thought of people saying its much better for the ozone. well where do we get electric from????? a plug in the wall.....where does that electric come from... a power plant... thats the key word is power plant that many look over. not only that but look to see what your electric bill will be... not a good idea. it would be cool to see at a show but to many ate blinded and think wow its electric its free power.

It depends on where you live. I am going back to school to become a Wind Turbine Technician. Now I am the type of guy who loves carburetors and horsepower, but I do think that electric cars are a good thing. The Chevy Volt is genius, once they work out the kinks. Yes they have had their problems, but what car hasn't?

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04 Monte Carlo- unfortunately LS 3.4
95 Bonneville SSEi- Series 1- 3.8 Supercharged
85 Fiero GT 4 speed muncie 2.8 Restoring Now
83 Chevy Silverado K-10 - 305- Plow Truck
67 Chevy C-10 Custom Pickup- 3 on the tree 283- Fully Restored
Fiance hates um all except the Monte- of course..
Mechanic at Karl's Chevrolet in Ankeny, Iowa

please DO NOT convert an '88. All the handling improvements are gone, once you add the extra weight.

Three or four years ago at Fieros/GM's at Carlisle there was a man who had an electric Fiero on display there. I believe that the range was only 25 miles and the car was practical for only around town driving. The range was so short that the car was trailered to the event.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I originally bought my 2M4 to convert to a 100 mile range Fiero. I figured it up and the price was about $7000 with mostly new parts, especially the batteries. I know it can be MUCh cheaper if you can source the Motor and the batteries from somewhere used.
I Really would like to build one but I ended up just driving my GT and selling the 2M4 Duke. I would still like to build one but just don't have the funds to even start one right now.
For me commuting 40miles one way, I would have to build it just right to get the 100 mile range I need to drive it. BUT I am still definately still planning on it and keeping a eye out for parts.
I have a parts list saved in my phone and am sitting on GO waiting for $$ and/or parts to come available.

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Car Thread:
86 GT
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/085541.html

I have spent a considerable amount of time lately searching the forum looking at EV conversion discussions and decided that it was finally time that I chimed in. There are so many misconceptions that have been addressed in so many of those threads that I could write an entire book in response to them. I'll try to keep my first response short.

I have converted my most recently acquired Fiero to 100% electric drive. Its an 88 GT with an AC drive system and a 260 Amp-Hour Lithium Iron Phosphate battery pack. It can go further than 105 miles (max) on a charge and has a top speed just short of 100 MPH. Acceleration is a little less than a stock V6 but is still adequate. I've been driving it since November of 2011 and have put about 13,000 miles on it so far. Because I was able to distribute the battery cell locations as needed the car's weight distribution has improved from 44/56 to 48/52. Even after gaining 390 LBS the car still handles as good or better than stock. Only the front suspension required a minor modification. I had to add a pair of 1" spacers (hard rubber donuts) on top of the coil springs. (Oh, and I did install a set of Dickman's zero lash end links prior to the conversion). Here is a short YouTube video of the car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKKxNOdlw1U

To answer the question posed in the thread title:

There is a guy named Wayne Alexander ( www.EV-Blue.com ) that claims to have conversion packages that start at $12,500.00. I can't comment on what sort of range or performance you get for that price, you would have to talk to him about that. I can tell you that in order to get the range and performance that my car delivers I had to spend over $27K. Before you loose your breath and pass out from hearing that number, consider the following. These LiFeP04 batteries as used in my application have the potential to last more than 250,000 miles. They have a 3000 cycle rating. That rating means that the cells can be discharged down to 20% remaining capacity 3000 times. Subtract 20% from 105 miles and you get 84 miles. 84 times 3000 = 252,000 miles. After 3000 cycles (to 20% SOC) the cells still have 80% of their original factory capacity. That means that the new max range would be reduced from 105 to 84 miles, and the daily repetitive range would be down from 84 miles to 67 miles. This trend repeats until the range is no longer useful to the driver. There is more good news. For every 10% less depth of discharge that you can keep the pack to, you get another 1000 cycles. In other words if you can opportunity charge at places like work or the shopping center you can drastically extend the life of the pack. As it stands now I'm convinced that my pack will out last the rest of the car. After 13,000 miles I can detect no loss of capacity or range. These cells may actually be better than advertised. One of the peculiar arguments that people like to use against going electric is return on investment. My own experience and acquired knowledge erases that concern. Besides, what sort of return on investment do we typically get from our gas cars? They do nothing but depreciate, get ever decreasing fuel economy, and get harder to keep compliant with ever tightening pollution standards.
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"88 GT converted to electric drive"

[This message has been edited by PePe-LePu_For_2 (edited 05-08-2013).]