I remember when I first got into Fieros around 1997 the Northstar and 3800SC swaps were all people talked about. And it seemed that way for years. However it seems as if people aren't doing many Northstar swaps anymore. Why is that?

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iv seen alot of cadillacs go for sale with the northstar engine for cheap. mostly due to headgasket issues. other then that. the cars themselfs are pretty mint cond. maybe it due to the difficulty?
i would love to have one in my car. but it just seems to difficult for my skill lvl at the moment. plus i dont have a good enough welder :P

quote Originally posted by joshh44: i would love to have one in my car. but it just seems to difficult for my skill lvl at the moment. plus i dont have a good enough welder :P

I can relate. I wanted to do a 3800 swap for years and now the N* looks very tempting. The Quad 4 is first on the docket though, so the 3800/N* question shall rest on the back burner for awhile.

Though exotic the N* motor it too costly a swap for the performance it offers as compared to other available engines like a 3800sc or even an LS series motor .

I dont get why more folks dont do the 4.0 aurora motor, other than it being down a few HP, its a far superior engine to the N* and more durable.

/\ /\ /\ ????? /\ /\ /\

The Aurora 4.0 is a smaller displacement, horsepower - handicapped N*.

The VIN 9 N* is capable of 450 hp with cam and valve spring changes and ECU remapping.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: /\ /\ /\ ????? /\ /\ /\ The Aurora 4.0 is a smaller displacement, horsepower - handicapped N*. The VIN 9 N* is capable of 450 hp with cam and valve spring changes and ECU remapping.

Auroras in stock form are far more reliable than the 4.6, I'm not talking about modding them, I'm talking about doing a swap, and leaving it mostly stock.

Honestly while the Northstar engine looks nice in the engine bay and supposedly makes good power, everyone I personally know that has a Caddy with a Northstar in it has had engine problems with it. I dunno why but they all seem to have issues.... It sure does look nice in the fiero tho.... peace

Pete

I might do a Northstar swap one day.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 09-22-2012).]

The N* is a woundeful engine in the Fiero. I had mine for 5 years without one performance problem. Actually I never had A problem. I think the biggest hurdle for the N* is that there is no one doing ECM programming. If someone like darth did N* programming like he does with the 3800 then you might see more of them. The wiring is about the same as a 3800. The mounts and cradle are more fabrication.

I have done both the 3800sc and the N* while the 3800sc in stock form is a nice swap with plenty of power. It does not compair to a stock N*.

I personally have owned Cadillacs with the N* power train and have had no issues out of the normal for any car (waterpump, A/C service). My current STS has 234,000 miles on it and uses no oil, no leaks, no issues. I would not trade the car for anything currently on the road. The only thing that makes the N* swap expensive is if you cannot do any of the fab work (mounts and exhaust) yourself. wiring is no more of an issue than a 3800SC, or any other OBD I to OBD II transplant. As to the Aurora being more reliable, I see more undamaged Auroras in the wrecking yards than I do Caddys.

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: If someone like darth did N* programming like he does with the 3800 then you might see more of them.

It is not for lack of wanting to be able to do it, that's for sure.

Right now our choices are quite limited. There's the 99 Shelby Series 1 4.0 Aurora programming that works on a 99 LS1 PCM; but it only works with a manual transmission (or non-electronic auto), and it is written for a 4.0L engine, not the Northstar 4.6L. So it is going to take some work to adjust that 4.0 tune to work with the Northstar. And there hasn't exactly been a huge demand for it. To date I've only been contacted by one person who has wanted me to program a 99 PCM for his Northstar swap, and he has not installed it into his Northstar swap yet. I know a few other people have tried using the Shelby PCM w/ custom programming with mixed results, but other tuners have set those PCMs up so I can't say if the issue's I've heard those other people encountered were because of an error with the tune or an actual limitation in the PCM. Time (and some work) will tell.

If you have a 2000 model year or newer Northstar, you can't use the 99 PCM because the ignition control system was changed on the 2000-newer Northstars. The only thing that I've been able to find that's available that will work with these newer engines is HP Tuners, and the earliest Northstar computer it supports is the 2006 model year car. But the FWD DTS is on that list which means the 4T80-E transmission should be able to be used as well.

Again, there just doesn't seem to be much of a demand. I would love to do a Northstar swap for a customer here at my shop, but it just seems the 3800 SC and LS4 swaps are way more popular.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

Theres a few around...
Im about a week a way from being able to fire my swap up, used the 7730 ECM setup Ryan Hess came up with a few years ago. Its a fairly simple system if you know wiring, but it only works for 96-99 engines and manual transmissions. I think what puts most people off about the N* is that the cradle has to be modified and mounts fabricated. Plus, depending on what PCM you are using, wiring can be a pain.
Why N* over 3800?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flcP0uEMwDU
IMHO, no 3800 could sound that good.. (Zac88GT's car)

Here in CA I use Northstars in all three of my Fieros. All three by D1S.

#011, #015, & #020


The Engine of choice for me now is LS4, but it doesn't look that pretty as the N* does in the engine bay.

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"Friends don't let their friends drive stock."

quote Originally posted by AWDimpreza-L: Auroras in stock form are far more reliable than the 4.6, I'm not talking about modding them, I'm talking about doing a swap, and leaving it mostly stock.

Then IMO its not "far more superior" if it's not as good of an engine to modify.

I also have a modified 4.6L Northstar in one of my fieros. Build up is in the projects thread (needs more updating, just been busy)


They look awesome, make good power, sound ruthless... Why not do a northstar? (Other than the fact that its alot of work)

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[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 06-09-2011).]

I think the N* is the sweetest Fiero motor swap you can do. I consider it GMs Hemi - I love the way it looks, sounds and it's power curve.

I had friends talk me into a sc3800 and I just couldn't pass up the deal I got on my Buick - Which I used as my daily driver for almost a year

Please don't flame me for my opinion

[This message has been edited by Pappy (edited 06-09-2011).]

I want to do one... N*s are very plentiful here for some reason. I could go to a yard and find a good one, I'm sure. I just don't have time and need a daily driver still.

If I did one, I'd have to get everything set up and running on a seperate cradle before bringing it in.

i think the the rap against the northstar is that anyone that takes one apart ends up with a bunch of ruined threads in the block .if i did one i would just get a good one and put it in .why fix it if it isnt broken .it is sad to me that cadillac gave up on these motors .now the cadillac V8 is a chev .

quote Originally posted by wftb: i think the the rap against the northstar is that anyone that takes one apart ends up with a bunch of ruined threads in the block .if i did one i would just get a good one and put it in .why fix it if it isnt broken .it is sad to me that cadillac gave up on these motors .now the cadillac V8 is a chev .

If you don't know what your doing, don't pull a motor apart (especially not a northstar). But if you do, it's not that bad.

One of the biggest issues with the N* is due to the easy driving that the older Caddy drivers do with their cars. The N* likes to be driven hard on a periodic basis, the older folks don't do that. The spirited driving helps keep the carbon buildup from occurring internally, preventing stuck compression rings and carbon build-up in the intake manifold. As to the block sealing and head gasket issues, there are far more good N*'s on the road than ones with those issues, but the engine has gotten a bad rep in the Fiero community.

it would be interesting to see what performance mods can be done to gain power. i have looked around and seen a cadillac car northstar with a sts turbo system. then there's the cadillac 4.4 supercharged motor in the XLR

quote Originally posted by ghost187x: it would be interesting to see what performance mods can be done to gain power. i have looked around and seen a cadillac car northstar with a sts turbo system. then there's the cadillac 4.4 supercharged motor in the XLR

There are 2 single turbo northstar setups, and a twin turbo northstar on this very forum (That I know of). Head work, cams, exhaust, etc are all accessible performance parts, and custom parts aren't too bad to do either.

quote Originally posted by wftb: i think the the rap against the northstar is that anyone that takes one apart ends up with a bunch of ruined threads in the block .if i did one i would just get a good one and put it in .why fix it if it isnt broken .it is sad to me that cadillac gave up on these motors .now the cadillac V8 is a chev .

I could use some clarification on the "now the cadillac V8 is a chev".

the northstar was discontinued and now cadillac uses a version of the LS motor for V8 power .i was looking on their website and it is called an LSA .i tried to check all the models but the cadillac site would not work very well so i gave up .and the problem with the threads is well documented by lots of skilled engine builders right here on pennocks .i know from experience that ecotecs dont have that problem and it looks like the LS motors dont either .

The DTS still uses (2011) a N*. http://www.cadillac.com/dts/2011/features-specs/

I never considered the LS series a Chev either since it lacks part compatability and doesn't leak oil from day one. The LS is a GM motor, corporate I think is the term they use.

according to wikipoedia , GM ceased production of the northstar in july of 2010 .maybe they still have a supply of them to finish out this years production .i noticed they just call them a 4.6L V8 .i could not get a picture to come up here , i will have to try at home .i read first about the end of Nstar production about a year ago in car&driver magazine .

CHRF has been hot-rodding the N* for years, they see lots of use in high end sand buggies.

I have two N* fieros. One from Fieroaddiction with a inter cooled turbo that is waiting for it's final tune. I only plan on running 5 lbs boost which should get me in the neighborhood of 450 hp. That is more than adequate for me. I also am finishing up an ls4 install with a car tuning turbo kit which advertises 640 hp which is just stupid, but it's in a murcielago replica and that's the horsepower that the murcielago comes with. At this point I would put the ls4 above the N* for that kind of horsepower. I anticipate driving Jon's car more than the Murci when it is tuned because the Murci just attracts too much attention.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Again, there just doesn't seem to be much of a demand. I would love to do a Northstar swap for a customer here at my shop, but it just seems the 3800 SC and LS4 swaps are way more popular. -ryan

Having driven N* Caddies and my wife's '09 Impala SS, I can see why the LS4 is perferred. Nothing against the N*, but the LS4 is a marvelous
engine! More torque and the same HP as a stock N* AND better gas mileage! I'm not sure why Cadillac doesn't use the LS4 for the DTS.
It would seem to be a better torque curve for the older driver as well. It's kind of like the best of the 4.9L and the N* rolled into one engine.
Is GM still putting the LS4 into Buicks? If not, it's a shame to lose such a good engine/tranny combo.

[This message has been edited by BigGuyTinyCar (edited 06-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by BigGuyTinyCar: Having driven N* Caddies and my wife's '09 Impala SS, I can see why the LS4 is perferred. Nothing against the N*, but the LS4 is a marvelous engine! More torque and the same HP as a stock N* AND better gas mileage! I'm not sure why Cadillac doesn't use the LS4 for the DTS. It would seem to be a better torque curve for the older driver as well. It's kind of like the best of the 4.9L and the N* rolled into one engine. Is GM still putting the LS4 into Buicks? If not, it's a shame to lose such a good engine/tranny combo.

I like the fact that the OHV engine wins the mpg with more inches. I see this as the OHV motor is more efficient*.


* better BSFC. same power with less fuel or less fuel to produce the same amount of power is a better BSFC.

quote Originally posted by BigGuyTinyCar: Having driven N* Caddies and my wife's '09 Impala SS, I can see why the LS4 is perferred. Nothing against the N*, but the LS4 is a marvelous engine! More torque and the same HP as a stock N* AND better gas mileage! I'm not sure why Cadillac doesn't use the LS4 for the DTS. It would seem to be a better torque curve for the older driver as well. It's kind of like the best of the 4.9L and the N* rolled into one engine. Is GM still putting the LS4 into Buicks? If not, it's a shame to lose such a good engine/tranny combo.

Well, the DTS and LS4 are both gone now. Only Caddy model on the line is the CTS, and the -V has the LSA now. I don't think there are any V8 Buicks in 2011/2012. They're all moving to the High Feature V6 platform. There's no more V8 Impala either. But comparing the LS4 to a N* is a little bit off too. They're wildly different engines, and not just the DOHC vs pushrod difference. None of the N*s had AFM or SIDI. And GM canned the High Feature engine projects with more than 6 cylinders. But I suppose why bother with the N*, when they're pushing 325 HP out of a 3.6L V6.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Well, the DTS and LS4 are both gone now. Only Caddy model on the line is the CTS, and the -V has the LSA now. I don't think there are any V8 Buicks in 2011/2012. They're all moving to the High Feature V6 platform. There's no more V8 Impala either. But comparing the LS4 to a N* is a little bit off too. They're wildly different engines, and not just the DOHC vs pushrod difference. None of the N*s had AFM or SIDI. And GM canned the High Feature engine projects with more than 6 cylinders. But I suppose why bother with the N*, when they're pushing 325 HP out of a 3.6L V6.

Bummer. I guess I should have said Cadillac should have used the LS4 in the DTS from 2005-2011 (they could have suped it up and/or made it super quiet for the DTS crowd).
Just an FYI, Lucerne is still listed with the Northstar for 2011, but the LaCrosse Super is gone.

quote Originally posted by Xyster: I never considered the LS series a Chev either since it lacks part compatability and doesn't leak oil from day one. The LS is a GM motor, corporate I think is the term they use.

You sure about this?

Might wanna research that a little bit more

http://www.angelfire.com/st...perchargerphotos.htm to bad they stopped working on the project.

quote Originally posted by ghost187x: http://www.angelfire.com/st...perchargerphotos.htm to bad they stopped working on the project.

You know GM sold some stock right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ies#Supercharged_LC3

quote Originally posted by dobey: You know GM sold some stock right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ies#Supercharged_LC3

yes, i mentioned it earlier in this thread.

quote Originally posted by BigGuyTinyCar: Bummer. I guess I should have said Cadillac should have used the LS4 in the DTS from 2005-2011 (they could have suped it up and/or made it super quiet for the DTS crowd). Just an FYI, Lucerne is still listed with the Northstar for 2011, but the LaCrosse Super is gone.

Ah, right. GM apparently changed all their sites, so I can't find the page now; but I had found a page on the powertrain site previously that had all the 2012 line-ups. Maybe they'll keep the N* around a little longer in the Buick, but all the others are V6 now, and I think the Regal will be all V6 as well. And, IIRC, the Malibu and Impala were gone from the 2012 Chevy lineup, but Caprice was coming back. And for Caddy, the only model is the CTS with several variations (hatch, V (LSA), etc...).