Anybody know the rules on baby seats in Wisconsin? My daughter has an '84 and a 2 mo old baby. Several people have told her that it is against the law to drive a baby in a Fiero? She lives in Wisconsin. I reminded her she has been riding in a Fiero since before she can remember. I bought mine in '89 and she was born in '89. She tried to tell me the laws have changed. Is this true? Babies cannot ride in the front seat of anything. (I know the Fiero technically doesn't have a front seat) Some one has her sold on an older Dodge Neon that is in excellent condition and is selling for $1000.00. (I would rather have my granddaughter in a Fiero)

Rich

I'm not aware of any law that makes it ILLEGAL for any child to ride in the front seat of any car, (assuming that's what you call the passenger seat in a Fiero).

In modern cars it's not recommended if the airbag cannot be disabled, although most modern cars either have a switch or based on the weight the front airbag is automatically deactivated.

Under the age of 4 you need to have them restrained in a child safety seat. You may have to rig up an anchor to make it safe. In the Fiero it is possible to rig up an anchor to the firewall.

quote Seat belt law Any automobile sold in the state of Wisconsin must be equipped with safety belts. All drivers of motor vehicles and all passengers over the age of four must wear safety belts. These laws apply to Wisconsin residents and non-residents alike in all front seat positions and in rear seat positions with three-point belts. Children under four are required to be restrained in an appropriate child safety restraint (see Child safety seats). Effective June 30, 2009, Wisconsin has what is known as a primary enforcement seat belt law. A standard, or primary enforcement seat belt law allows police to stop and ticket a driver for not wearing a seat belt, just like any other routine traffic violation. Where a primary enforcement law exists, seat belt usage is higher. States such as California and North Carolina have realized a significant increase in safety belt usage (to 80% in North Carolina) through the combination of a primary law and an aggressive awareness and enforcement effort. Wisconsin law provides for a fine of $10 and no points are assigned against a person's driver record. Those subject to the penalty include drivers, drivers with unrestrained passengers 4 to 16 years old and passengers at least 16 years old. The penalty for violating the child passenger law involving a child under the age of 4 is not less than $30 or more than $75. The penalty for violating the child passenger law involving a child between the ages of 4-8 is not less than $10 or more than $25.

I can't imagine this being true as long as the seat is installed properly with the correct seat. You could always ask a police officer, they should be knowledgable because they should have had course on this.

The laws in BC are that children can not ride in the front seat of any car with a front airbag. However providing the car does not have rear seats and the airbag can be turned off its OK. IE Pickup Trucks/Fiero's and other vehicles with only 2 seats. The law was made for 2 reasons. 1st was safety and 2nd was so that mothers did not have the desire to put them in the front and then constantly look over at them while driving.

My daughter has been riding around in my Fiero since she was 6 months old. First in her rear facing car seat and now in her front facing car seat. She is now 14 months old.

And YES I would MUCH rather have my daughter in the front seat of a Fiero than in just about any sub compact car. I have seen a dodge neon get T-Boned and it caved in the passenger compartment way more than a Fiero does.

Our other Vehicle is a 96 Chevy Blazer 4wd and my daughter is buckled in the middle of the rear bench seat.

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85GT Soon to be 87GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

You are OK, just ignore those who don't know the law. Otherwise, you would not see any two seaters or trucks on the road in WI.

Why would they have lied to her and told her it was illegal?

Airbags are the main reason why you cannot put car seats in the front of a multi seat passenger vehicle and the fiero has none.

New trucks have a keyed on and off for the airbag just for the purpose of putting rinky dinks in the passenger seat..

Where would all these little ones sit in a new standerd cab truck?
I would tell her no to worry about it.

that is the one thing I am most excited about with getting my Fiero on the road. Get to drive around with my daughter in the front seat. The fiero has locking seat belts that when extended all the way out lock in place so they don't pull back out. this allows for them to be used in locking in place for a belted car seat.

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Found a 88 formula Waiting to get a fence so I can re-home it
There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!

Ok now I'm aware of laws in BC... but in the USA you should be fine. Here are the instructions on how to hook up the anchor. They are from the Helms from back in the 80s so it might not apply to modern child seats.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-16-2011).]

I posted pictures of how I install a car seat in this thread a while back. hope it helps

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AIM & Y!: COGcaviZ24

As has been said before these laws are in effect for cars with front airbags that can not be disabled. A car without front airbags would be exempt from the law.

I can't imagine any state being more strict than California, and I drove almost a year with my newborn in the passenger seat of my Vette. And it was legal. As long as its properly installed and the airbag (no worries with the Fiero) is disabled, it should be legal.

I heard the same thing when my son was born here in NY. Talk to a state trooper... enough said. I know in NY and a few other states close by they offer free inspections of car seats for children. I went through it with a big thumbs up from my local troopers.

It's because they see a "sports car" and instantly think it's illegal. Not knowing our cars are tanks under the soft veneer.

I hit a deer going roughly 45mph with my son in the car (he was 2 and it was a 55mph zone) He was fine, car not so much. Somewhere on here i posted the pics a long time ago "deer slayer fiero".

In regards to that anchor point behind the seat it is not recommend with modern car seats to mix belts and the latch system. And since you are to stop using car seat 5 to 6 years after manufacturer date that would apply to every current car seat out there that would be installed in a fiero. Matter of fact we have 3 that can not be donated and will have to be destroyed.

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Found a 88 formula Waiting to get a fence so I can re-home it
There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!

Wisconsin Statute 347.48 Safety belts and child safety restraint systems. -
(4) CHILD SAFETY RESTRAINT SYSTEMS REQUIRED; STANDARDS; EXEMPTIONS.
3. “Properly restrained” means any of the following:


(as) A child under the age of 8 years who is being transported
in a motor vehicle shall be restrained as follows:

1. If the child is less than one year old or weighs less than 20
pounds, the child shall be properly restrained in a rear−facing
child safety restraint system, positioned at a designated seating
position in a back passenger seat of the vehicle if the vehicle is
equipped with a back passenger seat.

2. Subject to subd. 1., if the child is at least one year old and
weighs at least 20 pounds but is less than 4 years old or weighs less
than 40 pounds, the child shall be properly restrained in a forward−
facing child safety restraint system, positioned at a designated
seating position in a back passenger seat of the vehicle if the
vehicle is equipped with a back passenger seat.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0347.pdf

That is what the law is.

You can always take it to a Fire Station. They will know what the law on safety seats are.

Some great information in this thread.

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 01-16-2011).]

My twins are 4 yrs old and my son LOVES riding in my fiero! He also has a fascination with police officers and waves at every cop we see. We have yet to be stopped so it must be legal in indiana at least.

quote Originally posted by Kento: In regards to that anchor point behind the seat it is not recommend with modern car seats to mix belts and the latch system. And since you are to stop using car seat 5 to 6 years after manufacturer date that would apply to every current car seat out there that would be installed in a Fiero. Matter of fact we have 3 that can not be donated and will have to be destroyed.

LOL, funny you mentioned that. We have the same law here that they have to be destroyed. However I had the great idea just today..... when we had the car seat in the house and my 14 month climbed into it and got comfy and relaxed. These things are padded and designed to be comfortable for kids. So why the heck shouldn't I turn it into instant kids room or TV room furniture. We have paid 50 bucks just for a kid sized chair and frankly the car seat looks more comfortable. We don't have any expired seats right now, but I think I am going to keep my open for older ones in good condition just for that reason.

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85GT Soon to be 87GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

Thanks everybody, I didn't think she was getting the right info. By the way the Neon has a 4 start front and a 3 star side. AND I did get one email from a guy that wrote this:

FACE IT ,,,FIEROS ARE DEATH TRAPS. WHY WOULD YOU WANNA PUT YOUR KID IN A POTENTIAL FIREBOX, OR IN A FRONT END CRUMPLE BOX,,,TAKE A LITTLE BETTER CARE OF YOUR KID AND LEAVE HIM OR HER OUT OF THE FIERO, YOUR JUST AQSKIN FOR TROUBLE...CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED NOT TO LET YOUR KIDS RIDE IN THE FIERO.......


And to think I raised 5 kids in this car and taught 4 how to drive. They youngest has about 2 years to go to get his permit. I am now waiting for human services to come an knock on my door. OH how will I live with the guilt?

Rich

Probably the same dumba** that's trying to sell the neon crumplebox. Yes i've totalled a neon in a field with very little effort. SQUISH! A tree at 20 mph, no more front end. Douche...

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: Wisconsin Statute 347.48 Safety belts and child safety restraint systems. - (4) CHILD SAFETY RESTRAINT SYSTEMS REQUIRED; STANDARDS; EXEMPTIONS. 3. “Properly restrained” means any of the following: (as) A child under the age of 8 years who is being transported in a motor vehicle shall be restrained as follows: 1. If the child is less than one year old or weighs less than 20 pounds, the child shall be properly restrained in a rear−facing child safety restraint system, positioned at a designated seating position in a back passenger seat of the vehicle if the vehicle is equipped with a back passenger seat. 2. Subject to subd. 1., if the child is at least one year old and weighs at least 20 pounds but is less than 4 years old or weighs less than 40 pounds, the child shall be properly restrained in a forward− facing child safety restraint system, positioned at a designated seating position in a back passenger seat of the vehicle if the vehicle is equipped with a back passenger seat. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0347.pdf That is what the law is.

They can't outlaw standard cab pickup trucks or carrying babies in them. Some have a key disconnect for turning off the passenger airbag.

quote Originally posted by silver 85 sc: Thanks everybody, I didn't think she was getting the right info. By the way the Neon has a 4 start front and a 3 star side. AND I did get one email from a guy that wrote this: FACE IT ,,,FIEROS ARE DEATH TRAPS. WHY WOULD YOU WANNA PUT YOUR KID IN A POTENTIAL FIREBOX, OR IN A FRONT END CRUMPLE BOX,,,TAKE A LITTLE BETTER CARE OF YOUR KID AND LEAVE HIM OR HER OUT OF THE FIERO, YOUR JUST AQSKIN FOR TROUBLE...CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED NOT TO LET YOUR KIDS RIDE IN THE FIERO....... And to think I raised 5 kids in this car and taught 4 how to drive. They youngest has about 2 years to go to get his permit. I am now waiting for human services to come an knock on my door. OH how will I live with the guilt? Rich

That person that wrote you that email sounds pretty uneducated. Every car today is designed to crumble upon impact. I wouldn't consider Neon's to be safer than a Fiero, we had a soldier and his son at Fort Leonard Wood die while in a SRT-4, the soldier wasn't wearing a seat beat but his son was, the son died because the rear door was struck just right and the impact was hard enough to cause the door to go inside the car enough to smash the child. It was a pretty bad accident, like most accidents on I-44.

quote Originally posted by silver 85 sc: Anybody know the rules on baby seats in Wisconsin? My daughter has an '84 and a 2 mo old baby. Several people have told her that it is against the law to drive a baby in a Fiero?

What your daughter was told was

The short story is the Wisconsin law stating a baby must be in the back seat of a car in Wisconsin is tempered by the quite sane, qualifying condition: "...if the vehicle is equipped with a back seat."


Thus, you cannnot violate Wisconsin law by driving your Fiero with your granddaughter in it for the simple reason your Fiero is not "equipped with a back seat" --- unless, presumably, you install above your Fiero's engine a back seat, and then do not place your granddaughter in a "child seat" affixed to that newly-installed Fiero back seat.


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Wisconsin D.O.T. Sources Re Rules on Baby Seats in Wisconsin:
http://www.dot.wisconsin.go...hicle/child/laws.htm
http://www.dot.wisconsin.go...r-seat-law-facts.pdf

quote Originally posted by Kento: In regards to that anchor point behind the seat it is not recommend with modern car seats to mix belts and the latch system. And since you are to stop using car seat 5 to 6 years after manufacturer date that would apply to every current car seat out there that would be installed in a fiero. Matter of fact we have 3 that can not be donated and will have to be destroyed.

It's been 5 or 6 years since I've needed a car seat and I was unaware that child seats now have expiration dates. But I am sure this has more to do with lawsuits than anything else. All manufacturers want to limit their liability so they don't want to be sued because a 19 year old seat that (presumably doesn't meet modern standards) allows a child to be hurt.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but that it's based more on liability than logic. I'm sure that none of the child seats I have in the closet have expiration dates. All manufactures do this now. They have tested Aspirin from 50 years ago and it's nearly just as effective and certainly not harmful. There is no reason they have to expire after a year as they do now.

Five minutes of research seems to indicate that the expiration of child seats is exactly as I had speculated...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005...rtner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-16-2011).]

Wow what an idiot that emailer was. Where all have you posted this? I would love to send them some happy child pics in a FIERO! My daughter loves riding in the fiero and if you've EVER taken the door apart on one and seen the MASSIVE amount of side impact protection you'd be hard pressed to deem it unsafe. The doors are like tanks. Look at a Firebird with it's Fiberglass outer skin and Fiberglass inner skin with nothing more than a single piece of tubing running from front to back of it. There's no way I'd own one of those after seeing that.

While attempting to teach my youngest son to drive, he totaled my first '87 SE. He drove it off the road, down an embankment and smashed it sideways into a big tree on the driver's side. The tree was missing a little bit of bark. The Fiero was totaled. I had a thread here also titled Totaled. The windshield was smashed. The rear window was completly knocked out. The A-pillar was messed up. The B-pillar was crushed. The door skin was ripped off the car. The impact bar inside that door....Completely flawless! Not a scratch, dent, or damage of any kind. It was amazing. My son and I both walked away with minor cuts from the broken glass. I am currently using the V6 and Getrag from that car in my latest '87. It had a Duke and Isuzu and problems with both. If a car can take a hit like that, protect the passengers, and still have a usable drivetrain, how do you improve on it?

Jonathan

I think the only way your totaling could have been worse would have been another 10+MPH showing you the breakaway action of the back end. Watch race car crashes and you'll see the same thing, they loose the engine to get rid of the extra weight in a crash. It makes for a horrific site, but it's planned that way.

[This message has been edited by DIY_Stu (edited 01-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: ...if you've EVER taken the door apart on one and seen the MASSIVE amount of side impact protection you'd be hard pressed to deem it unsafe. The doors are like tanks.

This is so true... I have a fully complete door in my parts room and I can barely pick it up. It must weigh upwards of 150 pounds.

I would guess that the child seat laws were passed AFTER the Fiero was made, so they would not apply.

Child seat restraint laws differ from state to state. Just call your local law enforcement non-emergency line and ask. Best response I believe would be from the State Highway Patrol as they cover the whole state vice local Police who may or may not be as well versed in state law.

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1986 Red s/e 2m6 5-sp, & 2006 Red Solstice 5-sp

quote Originally posted by stumpkin: Child seat restraint laws differ from state to state. Just call your local law enforcement non-emergency line and ask. Best response I believe would be from the State Highway Patrol as they cover the whole state vice local Police who may or may not be as well versed in state law.

+1
My suggestion as well...

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I would guess that the child seat laws were passed AFTER the Fiero was made, so they would not apply.

Ah - no - The child seat laws still apply.

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quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: They can't outlaw standard cab pickup trucks or carrying babies in them. Some have a key disconnect for turning off the passenger airbag.

Sure they can. They haven't but they can. They did outlaw minors from riding in the back of pick-ups
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quote Originally posted by stumpkin: Child seat restraint laws differ from state to state. Just call your local law enforcement non-emergency line and ask. Best response I believe would be from the State Highway Patrol as they cover the whole state vice local Police who may or may not be as well versed in state law.

Ah - the local guys, that being city and county, they enforce the municipal code in addition to the state laws. They are paid to be versed in state law since it's 98% of what they do. You can of course read the state statutes yourself.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0347.pdf

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 01-17-2011).]

maybe the thing to do is see what drivers of pick-up trucks do....?

most states make exceptions for the car-seats for vehicles with no back seat.

quote Originally posted by CogFieroGT: I posted pictures of how I install a car seat in this thread a while back. hope it helps

I wish I had thought about using the Latch straps that came with the child seat. It would have saved me some time and money to connect it. Instead I bought some after market seat belts that had the same mechanism as the ones in the back of my truck and replaced the Fiero belts.

quote Originally posted by deezil: Why would they have lied to her and told her it was illegal?

Not so much a lie as being ignorant about the facts. I don't think it's illegal in ANY state.

For a 2-seater - usually properly secured in front seat with no (or disabled) air bag is all that is required.

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My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 01-17-2011).]

well if this is true, should apply to any 2 seater then

It has been a while since this topic has been discussed. Below is the ONLY way to PROPERLY install a car seat in a Fiero, unless it is specifically retrofitted with LATCH anchors in the structure of the body, or DOT approved seat belts are retrofitted.

Using LATCH anchors on seat hinge points or any available piece of metal near the seat, or existing seat belts, is NOT safe or acceptable. No amount of tugging will come close to actual crash forces experienced in the real world.

Pulling the belts out all the way does NOT put them in car seat mode like some switchable retractors on newer cars.

The inertia wheels on the retractors will NOT lock the seat in place in an EFFECTIVE manner.

I looked in the archives and could not find the big discussion we had on the topic a few years ago. I did find some other "scary" ones such as the "inertia locking the belt", opinion.


http://www.nhtsa.gov/people.../Add-On04/nissan.htm

Belt-Shortening Clips

Some pre-1996 vehicles have lap belts that will not stay locked after they have been tightened. They may be in the front or the back seat. For these belts, the webbing of the lap belt is sewn to the buckle tongue; there may be no shoulder belt or one that is made of a separate piece of webbing.

To install a child safety seat, this type of lap belt must be shortened with a �belt-shortening clip� (BSC). The metal BSC is used to fix the length of the lap belt that has an emergency-locking retractor (ELR), the type that only locks during a crash. The clip takes all excess webbing out of the lap belt.

The manufacturers listed below made one or more vehicles that require the use of a belt-shortening clip to install a child safety seat. Some vehicles made by manufacturers not on the list also have belts that need this part. A belt-shortening clip from any of the vehicle manufacturers listed can be used on another manufacturer's vehicle; they are interchangeable. Use these part numbers to order the clip from the dealer parts department.

It is important but sometimes difficult to obtain the appropriate instructions. Belt-shortening clips sold by most vehicle dealers do not include belt-shortening instructions. If the package does not include instructions for using the clip to shorten a belt, look in the vehicle owner's manual. As of December 2002, the Toyota BSC was the only one sold with belt-shortening instructions.

Note: Many other pre-1996 vehicles require the use of a �regular locking clip.� This type of clip, which comes with child safety seats, is used on lap-shoulder belts made of a single piece of webbing with a sliding latchplate. The clip locks the two pieces of webbing together at the latchplate. (Newer vehicles are required to meet a standard for safety belts that will stay tight around a child safety seat without adding clips.)

Belt-shortening clips are the same shape as regular locking clips, but they are used differently and are much stronger. Some, but not all, BSCs are larger than regular locking clips. It is impossible to rely on markings on BSCs to differentiate them from regular locking clips. The only way to identify a belt-shortening clip positively is to obtain the clip in its original packaging from a vehicle manufacturer.

Warning: NEVER use the regular locking clip supplied with a child safety seat as a BSC. It could fail in a crash, allowing the child restraint to move forward dangerously.


Part Number for Belt-Shortening Clips (Part name used by manufacturer may be different)

Ford F03Z-5461249-A (includes instructions for use as locking clip only; refer to vehicle manual)

GM 94844571 (no instructions included; refer to vehicle manual)

Toyota 73119-22010 (includes instructions for belt shortening)

Nissan H8010-89970 (includes instructions for use as locking clip only; refer to vehicle manual)

quote Originally posted by stumpkin: Child seat restraint laws differ from state to state. Just call your local law enforcement non-emergency line and ask. Best response I believe would be from the State Highway Patrol as they cover the whole state vice local Police who may or may not be as well versed in state law.

I would go a step further. Rather than listening to this one and that one, including highway patrol, get the documentation from the states motor vehicle code book/bible. Print it out and keep it with the vehicle registration card.

I've been in courts where the judge himself has quoted vehicle code while deliberately leaving out 1 key word which makes you guilty. The only thing that saved my friends hide was the "Code Book" I gave him to take along. My friend read the code properly and the judges only defense was, "Where did you get that information from? Thats not available to the public". (E X C U S E M E)

Lesson learned. Get it in print. Nooooo individual is above the law!!

Spoon
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Two yeast spent their entire life "about 2 days" discussing what the purpose of life could be and not once did they even come close to the fact that they were making champagne. Quoted by: Unknown

[This message has been edited by Spoon (edited 01-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by silver 85 sc: Anybody know the rules on baby seats in Wisconsin? My daughter has an '84 and a 2 mo old baby. Several people have told her that it is against the law to drive a baby in a Fiero? She lives in Wisconsin. I reminded her she has been riding in a Fiero since before she can remember. I bought mine in '89 and she was born in '89. She tried to tell me the laws have changed. Is this true? Babies cannot ride in the front seat of anything. (I know the Fiero technically doesn't have a front seat) Some one has her sold on an older Dodge Neon that is in excellent condition and is selling for $1000.00. (I would rather have my granddaughter in a Fiero) Rich

The baby seat has to be "rear-facing." I know the laws are getting more and more strict EVERY year... as a matter of fact, there are some people pushing to pass a law requring a child to sit in a booster seat until they're something like 7 years old.

As far as the front seat is concerned, it has to do with the air-bag, which the Fiero doesn't have...

It depends how dumb your province / state / city is... but a lot of law makers don't know the difference between a starter and a battery if they had to look at them, so they just assume all cars have air bags and therefore would probably pass a blanket law saying no babies in front.

Your best bet is to call the police (non-emergency) of your town and ask them... they'll be able to give you an answer.

Understand though that you may have a problem with using the front seat because your seat belt is a non-child locking kind...

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: The laws in BC are that children can not ride in the front seat of any car with a front airbag. However providing the car does not have rear seats and the airbag can be turned off its OK. IE Pickup Trucks/Fiero's and other vehicles with only 2 seats. The law was made for 2 reasons. 1st was safety and 2nd was so that mothers did not have the desire to put them in the front and then constantly look over at them while driving.

If anything, this is probably what is referred to - or more along the lines that small children are to ride in the backseat if available - which does not exist in the Fiero or a regular cab truck. People are probably just misinterpreting the ‘law’ and assume that small children are not allowed in the front seat period (not taking into account the exception for vehicles without a rear seat).

When in doubt, ask local authorities.