First off. I searched.....

So the Green Lantern wants a new motor. I had a chance to pick up a complete cheap firebird but it was a 3.4L. Im torn between an N/A 3800 with a turbo and a 3.4TDC with a turbo. I don't care which motor you think is better or why.

What I want to know about is strictly installation and wiring. I know both bolt up to the transmission. I know both need custom wiring harness. I know the mounting situations on both. What I need to know is the little things that are a problem with these swaps. Flywheel issues, rerouting of shift linkages, clearances.

Obviously I have many more questions pertaining to the lq1 due to the lack of information compared to the 3800. Can I mount it any lower to get some clearance up top so I can get to the spark plugs. What about exhaust? Details on wiring posted anywhere?

The easy route is the 3800. I know that. But its easy because its common and very well documented. I know darth has a great lq1 install into a 86 with 4 speed, but the pictures are no longer in the thread.

Thanks,

Kirt

Darth Fiero (Ryan) used 70's dodge truck mounts in place of the rubber in the stock fiero mount to mount the LQ1 lower. Flywheel isn't an issue with the TDC, not sure about the 3800. For the TDC, you will have to cut off and remove the passenger decklid spring, the valve cover will hit it. It also needs fuel lines to be run to the driver's side of the engine bay. Some people who swap in the LQ1 use the stock exhaust manifolds and makes a custom y-pipe that goes the to factory downpipe. I'm not sure how a turbo exhaust would be routed, most likely they cut the trunk and run the exhaust through there.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 09-25-2010).]

The more and more I research the more I feel like the turbo lq1 is like an exotic women. You would love to "have" her, but you know it will be a huge pain in the a$$ to get her in bed. The electronic issues that plague the turbo lq1 are far worse then the 3800. It would be nice to find some current threads pertaining to the tuning of the lq1 under boost.

Mattwa~ I've read about the dodge truck mounts. I would really like to find a poly mount... wonder if they make them? Thanks for the info on the flywheel. The decklid spring should not be an issue. I have the part number for the strut somewhere that is used. Lines seem easy and the exhaust Will have to be custom either way so its not really a worry now. Unsure of what to do about manifolds though.

[This message has been edited by cypres (edited 09-25-2010).]

quote Originally posted by cypres: The more and more I research the more I feel like the turbo lq1 is like an exotic women. You would love to "have" her, but you know it will be a huge pain in the a$$ to get her in bed. The electronic issues that plague the turbo lq1 are far worse then the 3800. It would be nice to find some current threads pertaining to the tuning of the lq1 under boost. Mattwa~ I've read about the dodge truck mounts. I would really like to find a poly mount... wonder if they make them? Thanks for the info on the flywheel. The decklid spring should not be an issue. I have the part number for the strut somewhere that is used. Lines seem easy and the exhaust Will have to be custom either way so its not really a worry now. Unsure of what to do about manifolds though.

All of the poly mounts I have seen put the LQ1 up at "normal" height, but I can't say for sure. As for the flywheel, I can't believe i was that vague, that's my fault. Just use an 88 2.8 flywheel and your good to go . For the 3800, I think you have to take an F-body 3800 flywheel and have it turned down? I wouldn't waste money on headers, they don't do much for the LQ1, but the opposite is true for the 3800. A custom intake for the LQ1 helps quite a bit, maybe even cam re-grinds, but now we are talking serious money.

Shift linkages shouldn't be an issue with either, but then again it depends where the turbo is. With the LQ1, things are going to be tight since the engine is so large, but you get a lot more revs out of it, and possibly more horsepower. It's mostly uncharted territory. LQ1's with boost are just crazy. 3800's have proven reliability.

I think the lq1 is a viable option now. I still have a little more research to do on tuning side of things. Seems like the best option is for me to use the obd 2 setup to make tuning a little easier. I dont know for sure yet. Any idea in this department.

Yea the flywheels are pretty straight forward. Non counter balanced for the lq1, f-body to .840" for the 3800.

Now as for the exhaust. I'm going to have to play it by ear. Due to rarity, I can't find many lq1 turbo fiero engine bay pics, and none that show the exhaust set-up.

Thanks mattwa for all your imfo. It is much appreciated. I just want to get it as low as possible in the engine bay to aid in working up top. Most other websites with lq1 info is in factory setups so thinks like mounting are not covered.

Back to "work"..... I E research on the internet while getting paid.

Thanks,

Kirt

From a purely tuning aspect, the 3800 is MUCH more commonly tuned and setup with boost/turbo.

That being said, the obd2 DOHC system has not been significantly explored. I know one person that has a OBD2 setup with a turbo, and he claims to have no issues tuning wise.

I will say that the power potential of the 3800 with a turbo is very close to a reliable 500whp without much more than a few tweaks. From what I gather, the dohc would be around 350 with a significant build.

The lq1 has not been pushed. And I have yet to find any information on a built motor with boost. The 3800 is a good motor, old technology though. I would say reliable 350 maybe! 500 has been done by very few and its costs a lot. I wouldn't say reliable either. Atleast not running it daily . The lq1 is great under boost. I have found a lot by not looking at fiero swapped cars. Lq1 is 350 plus HP with boost pretty easy...reliable? Irk


I'm going to grab one of the ebay crate motors. Junk yard has a couple lq1 to dress it. Turbo will be phase two along with a switch to probably haltech.

Spelling and Format ruined by ANDROID

[This message has been edited by cypres (edited 10-17-2010).]

quote Originally posted by cypres: The more and more I research the more I feel like the turbo lq1 is like an exotic women. You would love to "have" her, but you know it will be a huge pain in the a$$ to get her in bed.

Lol dont you mean a huge pain in the wallet?


I would love to see some kind of an engine swap in this car. I had plans for one while it was under my ownership but just never got around to it with the want of my IMSA.

How has it been running for ya cypress?

quote Originally posted by cypres: You would love to "have" her, but you know it will be a huge pain in the a$$ to get her in bed.

It's funny you bring that up. For a little while now, I've been observing the patterns of behavior and thought process of auto enthusiast, this board and the like. 3800 vs 3.4 DOHC, Northstar vs LS series, big block vs small block, fuel injection vs carb. It's amazing how idiosyncratic people are when it comes to choosing an option disregarding empirical data one way or the other.

That being said... the 3.4 DOHC, analogously speaking, is a lame ƒuck once you do finally get her into bed - I have pictures and video's of us in the act. She reminds me of the kids chasing after the bitchy cheer leading captain in high school. And if you want to climb into bed with her(turbo), she's going to play games with your head and ***** and moan about it the whole way down.

May I direct your attention to the good looking girl over there with the amazing rack and legs. She's also cheap, yet classy, and will do things to you you've only drempt about. She absolutely craves sex (turbo), rollercoasters, and is also wifey material. Her name is 3800.. go talk to her, she's single, and was asking about you earlier.

.... ok I'm done. Flame away.

quote Originally posted by L67: It's funny you bring that up. For a little while now, I've been observing the patterns of behavior and thought process of auto enthusiast, this board and the like. 3800 vs 3.4 DOHC, Northstar vs LS series, big block vs small block, fuel injection vs carb. It's amazing how idiosyncratic people are when it comes to choosing an option disregarding empirical data one way or the other.

That's because some people INSIST on doing everything "the hard way" to prove everyone else wrong.

If I were "doing over" I'd go 3800 S/C no question.

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My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

You should make separate threads on swapping each engine if you don't want a pissing contest, and space them a week or two apart...

Flywheel for the DOHC is an off-the-shelf part (88 V6 Fiero), not for the 3800.

In my opinion, I don't know why anyone would willingly ruin a Fiero with a 3800... Well I do know why (power), but still, yuck, 90-degree V6!

And even the DOHC, it's a bastardized pushrod engine design, weighs a ton, timing chain driving a "false" camshaft, in turn driving a secondary timing belt, requires cutting of the decklid hinge.

I prefer the factory 2.8 L nearly clean-sheet design.

Let me start by saying there is far to much ignorance in the Fiero community in regards to the lq1.

Pk- the lq1 is the cheaper swap. The car has been okay I guess. Had to do axle seals and replace a very old rad hose. A lot of little things that was wayyy over due.

L67- I bet I can get the lq1 to climax higher. Maybe not as fast but atleast she will sound good doing it. But seriously, I am over the debate and have chosen the lq1. Its not about Max HP or speed here.

I'm going to do it in two stages. Swap the dressed crate motor and do brakes and suspension. Then turbo and most likely switching to a standalone while I integrate the carputer into the entire car. A smart car I can be seen in.

Spelling and Format ruined by ANDROID

quote Originally posted by cypres: L67- I bet I can get the lq1 to climax higher. Maybe not as fast but atleast she will sound good doing it. But seriously, I am over the debate and have chosen the lq1. Its not about Max HP or speed here.

Hey, it's your life bro. Like I said, I see people doing stuff like this all the time. It doesn't make sense to me (anymore), but if it does to you I'll just keep tabs and see if you were right. The carputer would interface to the 3800 OBD II computer better... I would know.

I also thought I should tell you, the turbo 3800 also sounds better than a turbo LQ1.

l67- what don't you understand about my decision. Its not power based. My decision is made and this is not a pissing match. I'm glad you enjoy your car and the decisions you made on it. But please don't push it on me.

Can you explain why the 3800 would work better with the carputer? Especially over a stand alone. I have not checked but I'm assuming your basing this on baud but I have not looked at this very much. I know a haltech is going to be the best option. So that's the plan come Turbo time. I'd do it if I was doing the 3800 too.

Read my DOHC swap page on my site, lots of useless info on there, maybe even some that is not so useless.

Me, I loved the DOHC which is not to knock the 3800 swap at all, it's just what I did.

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Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

Yes, baud rate. If you spend time at Mp3car, you'll notice there's much more support and interface for OBD-II. Using the EK6 and the like would be the same for either motor, but you could interface the OBD-II computer to a carputer while you wait to upgrade to the stand alone. The 3800 doesn't really need a stand alone for boost, the OBD-II computer is a pretty kick ass PCM. Matt and Jeff are the only one's off the top of my head who are using a Haltech on a DOHC. Matt's pretty smart and didn't report back with issues, but I remember Jeff was having really hard time with idle (another bug in the DOHC system). If you run into problems tuning your Haltech with the DOHC, you're pretty much on your own, where as the 3800 tuning community and forums are great.

I didn't say I didn't understand your decision, I said it didn't make sense to me how someone could rationally arrive there. I have theories I'm working on, but I don't "know". A couple of my theories:
1. You believe the DOHC will provide a greater emotional/classier driving experience (emotion based).
2. You really believe the DOHC is the better choice (logic based, weighing alternatives).
3. Fiersound: "That's because some people INSIST on doing everything "the hard way" to prove everyone else wrong. (rage based, lol)"


I'd like to be able to wrap my head around the logic behind your decision is all. Time has played a large role in my own decision making process, I've driven both, worked on both, even rooted for both. I don't intend to have a "pissing match", and I certainly don't mean to come off as threatening or irate. I jump into threads like these partly because I wish someone had jumped into my threads and slapped a little sense into me in 2007. I wasn't really thinking objectively or logically back then, strictly on an emotional bases, and the lesson cost me $4000 and an entire year of hard work. So don't look at it as "pushing", ok? I'm just trying to give you an idea of what you're walking into. From someone who had to walk into it to understand.

The car in the video belongs to my old college roommate and forum member Jncomutt. It made 518 rear wheel horsepower the last time it was on the dyno.

ltlfrari- thanks for your site. I have spent a good bit of time there.

L67- I know everyone uses carputers on obdii. Sample rates are much better. That being said. I only plan on using the haltech with the lq1 and need to if I want to manipulate it as planned. The 3800 is tried and true. That's its benifit. It is not the best pushrod option either. Just easier. If the lq1 was as widely used it would have a far higher performance ceiling than the 3800.

Now drunk posting and cannot blame the android

quote Originally posted by cypres: ltlfrari- thanks for your site. I have spent a good bit of time there. L67- I know everyone uses carputers on obdii. Sample rates are much better. That being said. I only plan on using the haltech with the lq1 and need to if I want to manipulate it as planned. The 3800 is tried and true. That's its benifit. It is not the best pushrod option either. Just easier. If the lq1 was as widely used it would have a far higher performance ceiling than the 3800. Now drunk posting and cannot blame the android

The 3800 is probably the best pushrod option. Even comparing it to a LSx based swap, I think you will find it is hard to beat.

In terms of powerband, that is going to be determined by displacement vs turbo size, not so much heads. The 3800 will make more power all over the board vs the dohc... so you are not going to need to worry about any "climaxing" as you called it. Sound is also going to be based on turbo no matter what motor you pick.

OBD2 DOHC's are a very good option, and for some reason there have not been many people that have used it. For $300 out the door you can have a fully functioning fully customizable tuneable factory pcm setup that would require about 40 minutes worth of tuning to get it fully tuned for a turbo car. There is also a huge following of boosted gmv6pcm tuners.

quote the lq1 is the cheaper swap.

Cheaper? Hell no. Easier, probably, but by a whole hour or 2 in terms of labor assuming you cut corners on the dohc vs not cutting corners on a 3800 swap.

quote The 3800 is a good motor, old technology though.

So, the DOHC was being PHASED OUT for the NON SUPERCHARGED 3800 series 2... because the series2 was a newer and more advanced motor..... Yet it is old technology? Not many people know that the na 3800 made more power than your little DOHC did, with more power curve as well, due to fudged performance numbers from GM (I have a local source that worked for GM that informed me of this).

The nice thing about going 3800 is you can spend all of your time on the swap actually putting the turbo setup in it, instead spending most of your time thinking and planning. You can also buy aftermarket parts for the 3800 turbo setup to make things even easier.

I would add, and again, this is just my opinion, that if you want to turbo the DOHC or in fact do anything other than run a stock motor, there is less info out there for it than for the 3800. That means you are much more on your own doing something 'exotic' to a DOHC than a 3800 which means more chance of failure. Of course a lot depends upon your skill and knowledge level but it is something to bear in mind when making a choice if you intend to turbo the motor.

I look forward to following your swap, whatever you do.
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Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

[This message has been edited by ltlfrari (edited 10-18-2010).]

Dark you really think the 3800 is better then the ls motors? I do realize the 3800 will make more power due to its displacement. I simply was implying the lq would rev or "climax" higher. How can the lq not be cheaper assuming you pay the same for the motor? Furthermore what corners are they're to cut? Why does that not apply to the 3800?

I agree with everyone stating the 3800 is easier due to it's large following. Ltlfrari hit the nail on the head. If its not stock, the lq has no support. That being said. I know. Everything on it will be one off concerning the turbo.
I have seen several boosted obdii lqs. I have not heard one tuning complaint from those people, or praise tbh though.

quote Originally posted by cypres: Dark you really think the 3800 is better then the ls motors?

In terms of cost vs power.. reliability vs power...ease of install vs power.... sure, why not? The LS1/2 might be lighter by a small margin, but other than that I dont see an advantage as you said extreme power is not the goal here. If I can do 600+ without taking the heads off.. that is something that most LS1/2 people can only dream of.

quote I do realize the 3800 will make more power due to its displacement. I simply was implying the lq would rev or "climax" higher. How can the lq not be cheaper assuming you pay the same for the motor? Furthermore what corners are they're to cut? Why does that not apply to the 3800?.

Displacement has little to nothing to do with the fact that the 3800 makes more power. The DOHC just does not have the ability to go big power with any sort of reliability, so people dont push it. Like I said before, power is limited by turbo, not motor. When your turbo spins, and you make boost... all things equal the powerband is going to be directly related to spool time, not head design. I make ~600whp at 4000rpms, and ~600whp at 6200 rpms, same would go for any boosted TDC.

The only thing that the TDC has going for it in the "cheaper" zone, is the flywheel. At the end of the day, you are probably going to get a new flywheel for a 88 fiero... so it really is not all that big of an issue. My experience is you can find a sub 20k mile 3800 for less than 400 on a regular basis, the TDC... not so much. The corner cutting on install can be done both ways on the TDC and the 3800. Mounts still need to be fabbed in both situations regardless.

I think you would want to use an SC 3800 engine, due to it being more built for boost from the factory. Unless you're building the engine, in which case I think it doesn't matter.

quote Originally posted by Fiero1K: Unless you're building the engine, in which case I think it doesn't matter.

Read this:
http://realfierotech.com/ph...opic.php?f=3&t=15680

quote Originally posted by cypres: Dark you really think the 3800 is better then the ls motors? I do realize the 3800 will make more power due to its displacement. I simply was implying the lq would rev or "climax" higher. How can the lq not be cheaper assuming you pay the same for the motor? Furthermore what corners are they're to cut? Why does that not apply to the 3800? I agree with everyone stating the 3800 is easier due to it's large following. Ltlfrari hit the nail on the head. If its not stock, the lq has no support. That being said. I know. Everything on it will be one off concerning the turbo. I have seen several boosted obdii lqs. I have not heard one tuning complaint from those people, or praise tbh though.

What do you mean by "the better engine"? The 3800 is legendary, even on Ward's 10 best of the century list. I won't try to pass judgement on the 3400, but have heard lots of stuff about cams. I've looked at a few 3400 Fieros and that is a wide engine that seems very difficult to work around. I also think I have much more room around my NA 3800 than I did around the old 2.8. The 3400 should have an extremely agreeable powerband in a Fiero, tho. It should be a blast in operation. I think it's win-win with either engine, but I like the fit of the 3800.

Well, I've got a 88 Formula with a 3800SC and a 88 Formula with a 3.4 TDC. I love both cars but, there is no doubt the 3800SC is by far the stronger of the two. I toyed with having the 3.4 TDC boosted but as has already been mentioned, it's a lot of bucks for less than a huge return. I don't regret having the 3.4 TDC, it's a lot of fun to drive and with it reving well past the indicated red line from the factory tach, it blows folks minds when I play with it. Both are a blast to drive but they are different cars. Both have the same Getrag transaxle.

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Ron

You guys do realize that this thread is a year old right? Also hes a scammer.

quote Originally posted by nitroheadz28: You guys do realize that this thread is a year old right? Also hes a scammer.

Nope, hadn't noticed but, thanks for letting us (me) know.

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Ron

And the engine is blown.

Yes the engine let go L67 but so wouldn't a 3800 or any other engine if ran low on oil due to it leaking, evaporating or burning it and then beat on like i was beating on cypres old engine . like i said though where did the oil go I now know that cypres put all new gaskets in the engine why ? and I think Matt Hawkins has Proved the engine can be a good engine just most of us don't seem to follow him on this engine from mounting it to modding it

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 10-02-2011).]