It would seem to me that the STS turbo system http://www.ststurbo.com/universal_turbo_systems would be a great fit for those who were looking to do a Turbo swap in a Fiero. The Turbo replaces the muffler, and the pipes only have to run a few feet to get to the intake. Not the entire car like a normal front engined car. I'm just suprized that you don't see more of them. All the Turbo setups I have seen over the years have the Turbo in the engine compartment and again, with the STS setup it seams putting it in the back of the car would work out great for us.

Thanks for any input.

Rob

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88 Coupe, CJB T-TOP, 1996 3.4 DOHC and a GT clip

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 07-29-2010).]

if this will work with the 2.8 i might buy it when i get the money to do all the other mods i wanna do when i have a reason to drop the motor.

I don't think their setup is designed to be mounted anywhere near the engine. In a Fiero, there's nowhere to put all the components of their system. You'll basically just end up with a regular turbo setup, which is probably cheaper anyway. If you want to get rid of the trunk, though, I suppose you could probably managed to fit all the piping and everything, in the back.

i was wondering the same thing.

Have you ever run a motor with a short exhaust? No power without a means of building up back pressure you wont get the performance without some sorts of piping.

I have an extremely short exhaust and it has plenty of power just were I like it ..on the mid to top end

Nobody asked about cost-----Not cheap !!!!!!

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#1112
Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!
87drivetrain http://fieroaddiction.com/SBCTa.html

The biggest problem with these STS systems is the oiling, you have to run a scavenging pump and tank, and a godzillion feet of hose, its way more trouble than its worth, STS turbos are neat, and thats about it. In a fiero, the best place for a turbo is in the engine compartment.

Been done more than a few times I would say....

Well I am no expert, but I am doing research on this, so pardon my stupid reply to this.

Aus - About the short exhaust. I don't see how the length of the exhaust is an issue. My DOHC motor has a set of headers that goes to a "Y" pipe similar to a 2.8L V6. It goes up over the trans, down the driverside to a Cat Converter and then it goes out the same way as a stock system routes. I would say that the total distance is about 8-10 feet. If you replace the muffler (stock location) with a turbo your going to get a set amount of pressure, if its set for 7psi and you get 7psi then you wont get a lot of use out of your wastegate. Are you suggesting that the short exaust after the turbo is the problem?

Rodney, maybe i'm missing the point, but nothing says you have to use all the tubing and parts from thier setup. Yea, you'd have some extra pipe, hose and stuff. But the point of the system is to get the turbo out of the engine compartment. Maybe my point was missed because Im running basiclly a stock lenght exhust system, just replacing the muffler with the turbo. I'd think that it would be a bonus that you only have to run a short amount of pipe back up to the motor vice running the piping from the trunk to the engine compartment (in a traditional front motor, rear drive car).

AWD - Same answer as above, why do you need to run "godzillion" feet of hose? You would still hook up the scavenging pump off the oil filter connector, and run about 4 feet of hose. Your not running it to the front of the car, just straight down to the turbo, and back to the oil filter cap. Whats that 6 feet maybe 8. And you need to justify why "in a Fiero the best place for a turbo is in the engine compartment" because I don't agree. Just because everyone has done it that way does not mean its the best. Get the heat out of there. Its too damn hot, so move the Turbo to where the muffler is.

Hugh - I'm not sure, but is $2000 for this a bad price. WHat is the normal price to do this from scratch. I ask because I have no clue. I was quoted a price for an "almost complete bolt on kit for my motor" at about $1400. This was used and I still had to get the oiling system stuff myself. I'd almost be willing to pay the extra $600 for all new stuff, and a complete kit.

DarkHorizon, I have not seen any in the 10 years I've been hear. I don't dissagree with you, I'd bet some have done it, but I have not seen them post about it here.

Thanks again guys. I am attempting to gain more information about Turbos in general. Please don't take my reply as hostel, just giving you my opinion on your answers. I hope to keep up this thread so we can talk about it and I can learn more from what others have done.

Rob

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 07-29-2010).]

I think what most of them are refering to is that maybe the "benefits" of STS-style turbo setups are less pronounced on a mid-engined car such as our Fieros and the fact that you are almost "rear-mounting" a turbo when you do a turbo in the engine compartment of a Fiero.

IROC - I don't argue your comment except to say that my point with the STS system is that you get the turbo out of the "engine compartment" and place it in the muffler location. All the turbo's I have seen place the turbo in what I call the "normal" location which is up just off the exhaust mani's. Usually in the location of the stock airbox. I agree that the turbo is in the back of the car in our applicaton, but its still mounted in the engine compartment. I guess my question was more about turbo placement, and would we not get more out of replaceing the muffler with the turbo.

Great comments.

Rob

Here are some shots of my setup...
This seems to be a good place for the turbo...
Unlike a low mounted turbo, it does not need a pump to return the oil to the oil pan..
Sorry for the wide shots... these pics were quick to find... from the build up on the piping...
Chuck

quote Originally posted by qwikgta: Rodney, maybe i'm missing the point, but nothing says you have to use all the tubing and parts from thier setup. Yea, you'd have some extra pipe, hose and stuff. But the point of the system is to get the turbo out of the engine compartment. Maybe my point was missed because Im running basiclly a stock lenght exhust system, just replacing the muffler with the turbo. I'd think that it would be a bonus that you only have to run a short amount of pipe back up to the motor vice running the piping from the trunk to the engine compartment (in a traditional front motor, rear drive car).

So, you might need to use all the tubing from their setup. But why pay for the extra? There's nothing special about their turbos, except that they are designed to mount remotely. The intake air has much further to travel in their setups. I also read on their site that apparently the intake air tubes also have some sort of smaller tubes built in, for coolant to flow through, to cool the incoming air. I think if you just want to replace your muffler with turbos, you don't need their extra stuff to do it. I'm just suggesting that it seems like you'd be paying a lot more for something that they designed to do the exact opposite of what you want to do with it.

It would be better to just install a normal turbo setup in the Fiero. How you route the tubing is up to you, but I don't see any advantage to buying their stuff and hooking it all up. They've got coolant and oil pumps and all kinds of other stuff in their system as well.

quote Originally posted by dobey: So, you might need to use all the tubing from their setup. But why pay for the extra? There's nothing special about their turbos, except that they are designed to mount remotely. The intake air has much further to travel in their setups. I also read on their site that apparently the intake air tubes also have some sort of smaller tubes built in, for coolant to flow through, to cool the incoming air. I think if you just want to replace your muffler with turbos, you don't need their extra stuff to do it. I'm just suggesting that it seems like you'd be paying a lot more for something that they designed to do the exact opposite of what you want to do with it. It would be better to just install a normal turbo setup in the Fiero. How you route the tubing is up to you, but I don't see any advantage to buying their stuff and hooking it all up. They've got coolant and oil pumps and all kinds of other stuff in their system as well.

You see, this is my ignorance with Turbo's. You make some good points and I guess maybe because I don't understand all the coolant and oiling issues I just see this as a good idea. Also, price wise, I was guessing that their system was a good idea because its all there. I don't have a good grasp on what you do/don't need yet. It may be as easy as you say, and I could get a turbo and pipes, hoses and clamps for a lot less. I know for my application im not willing to loose the headers, and so I don't have a good mounting point near the engine, unless I go big bucks and redesign my intake manifold like some others have. Again, from a cost point of view, mounting the turbo in the muff location, adding a oiling system, adding larger fuel injectors and some programing, I was hoping to keep this under 2K. I figured that they had some kind of special turbo with some additional oiling capability to run from that remote location. I will be doing more research.

Great pics Motor TV. I love the intercooler. I have seen your setup before, I think you were at the 20th, or maybe just on here.

Rob

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 07-29-2010).]

quote Originally posted by qwikgta: You see, this is my ignorance with Turbo's. You make some good points and I guess maybe because I don't understand all the coolant and oiling issues I just see this as a good idea. Also, price wise, I was guessing that their system was a good idea because its all there. I don't have a good grasp on what you do/don't need yet. It may be as easy as you say, and I could get a turbo and pipes, hoses and clamps for a lot less. I know for my application im not willing to loose the headers, and so I don't have a good mounting point near the engine, unless I go big bucks and redesign my intake manifold like some others have. Again, from a cost point of view, mounting the turbo in the muff location, adding a oiling system, adding larger fuel injectors and some programing, I was hoping to keep this under 2K. I figured that they had some kind of special turbo with some additional oiling capability to run from that remote location. I will be doing more research.

On the Fiero, mounting the turbo anywhere, is "near the engine" though. You don't need to redesign your intake to bolt on a turbo. And you could easily pull your muffler out, and mount it down there, probably, if you don't want to go with a giant turbo. If you keep everything at a reasonable size, it shouldn't be too bad. I don't think they have any special oiling in the STS turbos. I think they just use the oiling/cooling as marketing gimmicks. I guess if they're running intake tubes under the car, right next to the exhaust pipes, though, they're going to need to keep the intake tubes cool.

How much power are you looking to get out of adding the turbo?

Rear mounted turbo....



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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 07-29-2010).]

^^^^^ Nice. Great photo. Thanks.

This has changed my mind on going with the stock iron manifolds. Maybe I could sell my headers and exhaust system and make back some of the coin it will take to do this. Now Im really thinking about it.

Rob

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 07-30-2010).]

Where does the cooling come into play on this system? One of the biggest down falls to a turbo versus a super charger is that it is driven by HOT exhaust gasses. Where in this system is the air charge cooled? Depending on how you plumbed it, the other issued I see with it is the air intake (on the lightning they installed it on in the show) is UNDER THE TRUCK behind the front wheels . Maybe its because Im from ND, but that filter would not last me 3 months before it was plugged! rain, dirt, road grime, etc.

quote Originally posted by Bump: Where does the cooling come into play on this system? One of the biggest down falls to a turbo versus a super charger is that it is driven by HOT exhaust gasses. Where in this system is the air charge cooled? Depending on how you plumbed it, the other issued I see with it is the air intake (on the lightning they installed it on in the show) is UNDER THE TRUCK behind the front wheels . Maybe its because Im from ND, but that filter would not last me 3 months before it was plugged! rain, dirt, road grime, etc.

One of the biggest advantages is that the turbo is driven by the hot exhaust gasses. It's using wasted energy from the engine to produce more power. The heat from the exhaust doesn't affect the the air charge temperature. Compressing the air is what creates all the heat, that's why I have a large water to air intercooler to cool it down. I never see temps over 14*F over ambient after the cooler. An electric water pump flows water through the intercooler core and then it passes through a heat exchanger (radiator) up in front of the car. That air filter is long gone, I have a much better and bigger 1000cfm AEM dryflow filter. Once you understand how a turbo works its pretty simple.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

Somewhat off topic to the STS systems, but general turbo q's:

Dont superchargers compress the intake air as well? Why dont they use an intercooler?

And doesn't the turbo get hot being mounted in the exhaust system (typically near the manifold)? I would think that contributes greatly to the heat of the air that is flowing through it.

Doesnt the fact that the exhaust has to spin the turbo create extra "un-wanted" backpressure on the exhaust system?

Back to STS:
Why dont they cool the air charge?

http://www.superchargersonl...om/content.asp?ID=16

FEATURES :: PERFORMANCE ACCESSORIES & EXTRAS
Let's Talk Intercoolers!
8/3/2001 9:37:00 PM

An intercooler (sometimes referred to as an aftercooler) is designed to remove heat from the compressed air coming from the supecharger (or turbo) before it enters the engine's induction system. An intercooler works just lie a radiator - air is cooled by fins, bars, louvres, and plates inside the intercooler that are cooler than the compressed air coming from the supercharger. The reduction in air temperature increases the density of the air (more air molecules per cupic foot), which consequently increases your engine's ability to make more horsepower and torque. The decreased air temperature allows you to run more boost on a given octane of fuel before detonation occurs..

What's up with the terms?

The term 'intercooler' comes from days when they were first used on twin turbo aircraft engines. With two turbos, the air charge would get VERY hot - it was heated by the first turbo, then heated again by the second turbo. To combat this double temperature rise they placed a heat exchanger in between the two turbos and called it an "intercooler" because of its location in between two turbos. When this same kind of heat exchanger is used on a single turbo or supercharger, it is located after the supercharger, and should technically be called an "aftercooler" because of its location after the single turbo or supercharger. These terms didn't seem to stick, though. The term 'intercooler' caught on and became almost universal for all heat exchangers regardless of their position. The term 'aftercooler' became synonymous with air-to-water coolers because this is the term Vortech uses to describe their coolers, which are water cooled. So while technically incorrect, we will still use the popular terms 'intercooler' to mean any air-cooled charge cooler and 'aftercooler' to mean any water-cooled charge cooler.

Why Intercool?

There are several important benefits to intercooling that have resulted in their increased popularity in recent years. The most significant advantage is that intercooling increases the detonation threshhold because of the cooler air charge, meaning you can run more ignition advance for higher performance, or run lower octane fuel before experiencing detonation. This makes intercoolers very desirable for those looking to get the most out of their street vehicles on pump gasoline. The cooler air also allows your engine to run slightly cooler, reducing the chances of overheating. Intercoolers also enable your engine to produce more horsepower because of the denser air charge being delivered to the engine's combustion chamber.

Don't assume, however, that you can simply bolt an intercooler on to your supercharged engine and expect power gains with no other changes to the system. Intercoolers do create some internal drag causing a slight reduction in boost, and can also cause the engine to run lean (knock) due to the denser air charge. These problems are easily corrected and should not cause concern, however they cannot be ignored. Boost pressure can be brought back up (actually you'll probably want to run substantially more boost than you did with a non-intercooled application) using a smaller supercharger pulley. The smaller supercharger pulley will spin the supercharger faster and increase its output. Make sure your supercharger is designed to handle these higher boost levels. Correcting the air/fuel ratio to compensate for the denser air charge can be done with larger fuel injectors, recalibrated FMU, larger fuel pump, adjusting the mass air meter, etc.

Intercoolers... Aftercoolers... What's the difference?

In order for an intercooler to effectively cool the air that passes through it, the intercooler itself must be cooled by some external means. Most intercoolers are cooled just like your engine's radiator - air flows over the outside of the intercooler's fins, which in turn cool the air inside the intercooler - hence the name Air to Air Intercooler. Some intercoolers, however, are cooled by water instead of air, in which case they are generally called aftercoolers, or Air to Water Intercoolers. The benefit to an aftercooler is that air passing through it can be cooled more than in a traditional air/air intercooler if very cold water and ice are used to cool the intercooler - in fact, some aftercoolers chill the air to below ambient air temperatures even after it has been compressed by the supercharger. The reason aftercoolers are more effective in cooling the air charge is because water is a much better conductor of heat than air - in fact water conducts 4 times as much heat as air! The obvious drawback is that with time, the water will heat up to the temperature of the air passing through it, and its ability to cool incoming air goes away. Some aftercoolers, however, use a small radiator to cool the water that runs through the system, making them ideal for street use as well as racing. For drag racing applications aftercoolers packed with ice work very well because they only need to work for around ten seconds or so (hopefully) before you shut down and head to the victory podium. For milder racing and street applications air/air intercoolers or aftercoolers with radiators are more practical as their ability to cool incoming air is not reduced with time.

When is it right to intercool?

Obviously, intercoolers only work with supercharged or turbocharged vehicles where there is a substantial difference in temperature between the air entering the engine and the cooling medium (the intercooler). Because superchargers heat up the air significantly as they compress it, it is possible for there to be a very large temperature difference between the intercooler (ambient air temperature - 80F degrees or so) and the compressed air (200F - 350F degrees). Superchargers with higher boost will create a hotter discharge, so as you increase your boost, the effects of the intercooler become more and more noticable. In general we would not recommend intercoolers on supercharged engines with less than 8-9psi of boost, as the benefits will not be substantial. Essentially, run an intercooler when only when you running peak boost (i.e. any more boost would cause detonation) for the octane of fuel you use. Intercoolers work well in both warm and cool climates and work exceptionally well on marine applications because of the easy access to cold water.

Don't intercoolers restrict the flow of air into the engine?

Yes. Any time there is an obstacle in the way of the air flowing into the engine (like an intercooler fin or louvre), a pressure loss will result. Today's intercoolers are very effective in minmimzing this pressure loss so that the benefits obtained by cooling the discharge temperature normally outweigh the 1-2psi (approximate) loss in air pressure, which can be regained by running a smaller pulley and increasing the output of the supercharger.

The final word!

So while intercoolers work well on higher output superchargers, they are not recommended for lower boost level kits, like an average 6psi street kit. If you're looking for exceptional performance from your engine, consider adding an intercooler to your engine, or consider purchasing a supercharger kit that comes with an intercooler. Most ATI ProCharger systems include intercoolers and still remain very reasonably priced. Paxton has also recently introduced several intercoolers to fit their more popular supercharger systems, while Vortech already includes intercoolers with several kits. Good luck with your intercooling endeavors, wherever they may take you!

For specific information about Intercooler system upgrades, start with our Feature Intercooler page and select an application.

quote Originally posted by Bump: Somewhat off topic to the STS systems, but general turbo q's: Dont superchargers compress the intake air as well? Why dont they use an intercooler? And doesn't the turbo get hot being mounted in the exhaust system (typically near the manifold)? I would think that contributes greatly to the heat of the air that is flowing through it. Doesnt the fact that the exhaust has to spin the turbo create extra "un-wanted" backpressure on the exhaust system? Back to STS: Why dont they cool the air charge?

Superchargers can and do use an intercooler in many cases. The Mini Cooper S is intercooled for example. And lots of the 3800SC swaps install intercoolers as well. It is somewhat less required though, as the exhaust gasses aren't what is spinning the compressor, creating extra heat.

And STS does seem to claim that they cool the air. "There is built in cooling in our tubing." That's what I got from reading the "technology" thing on their web site, anyway.

quote Originally posted by Australian: Have you ever run a motor with a short exhaust? No power without a means of building up back pressure you wont get the performance without some sorts of piping.

That's not true. In all my years running engines on the dyno, never once have I seen high backpressure improve the power. Some mufflers actually do help improve power, but even these do best when attached directly to the end of the headers.

So has anyone yet installed an STS system in Fiero?

quote Originally posted by FinnishFireball: So has anyone yet installed an STS system in Fiero?

No. They don't have a kit for a Fiero, and there would be virtually no benefit to it over other turbo kits/installs, even if they did.

Ok. Does any of you guys know how their turbo, I mean the supercharger itself, differs mechanically from any other turbo out there? There must be some technical difference to avoid massive lag right? Otherwise it would taka a minute for it to spool up due to loooooong pipes?

quote Originally posted by FinnishFireball: Ok. Does any of you guys know how their turbo, I mean the supercharger itself, differs mechanically from any other turbo out there? There must be some technical difference to avoid massive lag right? Otherwise it would taka a minute for it to spool up due to loooooong pipes?

Nope, if I remember correctly- its just a regular turbo setup (apart from being rear mounted). The air moves faster than you think, so while there may be more lag than a typical front mount turbo setup- it still spools up almost as quickly.

it's all in the differences in size between the wheel in the exhaust side and intake sides of the turbo. the ratio between them can change dependent on the size/angle of the vanes on the compressor wheels. i'd imagine that they just found the optimal a/r ratio for a remote mount setup, which you wouldn't want anyway since your turbo, whether IN the engine bay, or in the trunk area, will still be a lot closer to the exhaust manifolds than in a normal sts setup.

your best bet would be to route out where you would want your turbo mounted, and where your piping would run, buy mandrel bends and straight sections from jc whitney, and weld them into your charge piping system. it'll be a lot cheaper, so you have more money to take the car to the dyno and get it tuned after you boost it.

is the car built for boost? you're not wanting to do this on a stock engine are you?

quote Originally posted by FinnishFireball: Ok. Does any of you guys know how their turbo, I mean the supercharger itself, differs mechanically from any other turbo out there? There must be some technical difference to avoid massive lag right? Otherwise it would taka a minute for it to spool up due to loooooong pipes?

The turbo itself isn't any different than other turbos. The tubing in their kit is special though, as the biggest issue with a remote mount setup like that, is getting the intake air charge cooled down, as it's basically travelling right next to the exhaust pipes.

Its been a while since I posted this, but as I read through the thread i'm still amazed how my original point was missed. I used the STS system as an example, because of how its used in a traditional front engine, rear drive car. I agree with many who have posted that spending all that money on the STS system would be a waste, maybe I should have used a different tact. My idea was to take a stock 2.8 type setup, or a engine swap 3.4 DOHC, N/A 3800 type of setup and add a turbo. But instead of putting the turbo near the stock airbox (inside the engine compartment), but the turbo in the place of the muffler. My thought was keep the stock manifolds, stock Y pipe, stock (hi flow) cat converter (Smog Nazi's) but Turbo instead of muffler. Route the oil lines, BOV, and other parts needed. I was going to swap out my 88 rear fascia for a 87 so I could route the new exhaust pipe out to the one exhaust tip location. Maybe getting rid of the trunk or parts of it so you can get the Turbo in the best position, and to see it :-)

A few have done this as I see now, and the pictures above are basically what I was thinking. My number one goal of the system was to keep the traditional exhaust setup, not run the engine swap "short route" system (dump straight down, cut out the trunk). I agree that it may not have been the most efficient system, or make my car the fastest Fiero in the world, but I was looking for a fun drive, fun system, nice to look at type of car. Its not always about going fast.

Anyway its all OBE now, since I went and had Archie install a LS376.

I may do this with my next Fiero

Rob

quote i'm still amazed how my original point was missed.

Serious post?

quote Originally posted by dobey: The intake air has much further to travel in their setups. I also read on their site that apparently the intake air tubes also have some sort of smaller tubes built in, for coolant to flow through, to cool the incoming air.

quote Originally posted by dobey: The turbo itself isn't any different than other turbos. The tubing in their kit is special though, as the biggest issue with a remote mount setup like that, is getting the intake air charge cooled down, as it's basically travelling right next to the exhaust pipes.

I'm pretty sure it's just regular tubing & the intake air temps are lower by the time they go through all the piping running along the bottom of the vehicle...

[This message has been edited by jaybeezi (edited 09-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by jaybeezi: I'm pretty sure it's just regular tubing & the intake air temps are lower by the time they go through all the piping running along the bottom of the vehicle...

quote Lowest Intake Air Temps. Low IAT's equate to more horsepower per pound of boost than any other forced induction option. STS intake piping provides built-in intercooling. Add the optional intercooler, and IAT's drop even further.

From http://ststurbo.com/the_technology

They are saying that the negative of the pressure drop from the long charge pipe distance, is made up for by the positive of the cooling caused by the long charge pipe distance, with ambient air flowing past it under the vehicle.

'more hp per pound of boost'.

That's the built-in intercooling, there is no coolant pump in the system, only an oil pump.

[This message has been edited by jaybeezi (edited 09-24-2011).]

OK. That's what it says in their patent too it seems.

The wording on their site implied there was a more active component to it; and I can't find it now, as it seems they've changed the web site, but they used to have a picture of one of the kits, which showed the end of one of the pipes, which looked like it had some sort of integrated cooling system surrounding the pipe.

Anyway, you are right. The intake pipe does seem normal now.

i used a remote mount turbo in my second version of my turbo 2.2 ecotec .there are pics in my build thread .it was mounted where the lower part of the trunk would normally be . i went from the stock manifold to the cat and then to the 16g turbo .the charge piping then followed the stock v6 exhaust route ,with an air to air sitting where the stock cat would have been .i did not run a muffler originally but added one later because of the noise .there was no increase in lag with the long piping but the air to air was not in the best spot .i used a shurflo aggie sprayer pump to get the turbo oil pumped back in to the engine and it worked really well .the problem i had with this setup was all the weight hung out under the trunk caused a lot of hanger failures .i probably could have figured out how to remedy that , but i went back to bolting up to the stock manifold instead .on my new engine i have a hahn manifold and 20g hahn turbo designed for the 2.2 eco .this is a much bigger turbo , but it is a little lazy at low rpm's .with the smaller turbo , i did not have to downshift as much on the highway to get the boost up .

quote Originally posted by dobey: OK. That's what it says in their patent too it seems. The wording on their site implied there was a more active component to it; and I can't find it now, as it seems they've changed the web site, but they used to have a picture of one of the kits, which showed the end of one of the pipes, which looked like it had some sort of integrated cooling system surrounding the pipe. Anyway, you are right. The intake pipe does seem normal now.

That would be pretty cool though...

quote Originally posted by jaybeezi: That would be pretty cool though...

Yeah, I was thinking of trying to do it on the regular intake piping on my N/A motor, when I get it up and running.