This post is to see how many people would be willing to buy aftermarket t-top seals (assuming that I could get everything I need to reproduce them) at a much more reasonable price, $600 each is quite ridiculous.

maybe interested, I have two t-tops, non CJB

I would probably be interested - Formula CJB.

Count me in

I'm in for a set, maybe 2. I would like to have new rubber under them and to know that I don;t have to worry about getting caught out in thunderstroms anymore.

I think that we went through this exercise a few months ago without any real success. However, if you can make it go, I would like a set of CJB seals for a reasonable price.

I would be interested in a set if the cost was reasonable and my personal situation at the time would allow me to purchase them.

I'd love a set my mustang atrocities just isn't cutting it.

I have an 88GT CJB T top. I am leak free but I will need some sometime. I would get a set while I could.

I replaced mine with F82 Camaro seals, but I have the old ones that may be useable as a pattern. FYI, it looks like the F82 Camaro seals are an exact match in certain areas, including the A butt joint and the cross section of the part that goes around the top. The A and B pillar cross sections are a little different
Jim

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87 T-top 2.8 5sp Camaro Dash Bonneville door panels; 86 355 body & interior kits 3.1 Auto; 85 SE 2.5 5sp, 86 SE 2.8 auto parts car

I'd be in for one set, maybe two if the price were right - but hasn't this been tried before? Good luck with the project, anyway.

Mike

Any update? Time frame? Cost?

I seem to remember a couple of other attempts to get these produced. No manufacturer would consider producing such a low number of seals. All reports were that it would be cost prohibitive. Though I'd love to see this happen and will follow this attempt, I'm skeptical of the outcome. But, by all means, go forth and let us all get new T Top Seals. Mine would be CJB.

Ron

The update right now is : Pass my classes, that's why I was throwing out ideas. I'm not looking for a company to mass produce these, I'm considering making my own homemade molds and making a pair/night or however long it takes. - Will update more when I have the time. I was mostly trying to get and idea to make sure that everyone didn't switch to mustang/camaro seals before trying to make some

ok a year has gone by, any news?

My guess is that he found like so many other have that they are not cheap to make.

I am betting untill someone can work out some kind of deal we will never see these done.

The Fiero is a low priced car and it is hard to get people to pay for parts with the Values so low. THere is such alimited market for the seals it would be so hard to make back any investment.

Our best bet is to find one that is out that could be converted. We may get a MFG to convert a set they make for another car. It may not be 100% original but you would have them.

I have often wondered if a MFG could cut and reglue a set that would work well.

I could use some. Mine are non-CJB, but when you're talking after-market, I don't think that matters.

The only difference between the CJB and non CJB are the seals, so I say see if we can get the CJB remade then everyone will have the better seals. I definitely wish we could find a decent solution though.

My seals are shot, and IMO hopeless. I do have new weatherstrips to pu ton the glass, but without the door/top surround seals they are not going to stop much leaking.

I have no idea what costs would go into creating t-top specific seals, but some of the work has already been done by Fierostore who have gotten non-t-top seals made. At $170 for a pair they are not too unreasonably priced either.

For the t-top cars, it would take getting them to convert the top of the seal to go around the t-top opening, and make a corresponding seal to attach to the glass.

I know I'd be interested. Right now, my car is undrivable in rainy weather (although some of that is due to horribly mis-aligned door glass too.).

I have also been trying to find someone who does restoration work that would be willing to custom make some seals for me to replace the ones on the car. That might prove to be incredibly expensive, but it would really only take making body seals that matched the new seals I have for the glass panels.

Let me know when make them

A few months ago, someone in TX (TXGood maybe?) said they had just scored a perfect NOS set on seals but now I can't find who it was. Searching turns up nothing. Any of you know who it was? I am desperately in need of contacting them.

Will

Edit: I found him. It was Timcha and shortly after he totaled his car!
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Is your Fastback GT's trunk seal shot? My replacement GT trunk seals are now in production and shipping. $95 + $15 flat rate shipping to the US (contact me for international shipping rates) or buy two and pay only a single shipping rate! More info can be found here GT Trunk Seal Project

[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 10-24-2010).]

Tim sold them to smartaxel Are you gonna make them now Will?

*Edit* I don't think smartaxel has used them yet, and he chowed interest in remaking them before but didn't have a good way to do it.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 10-24-2010).]

I have been talking to my extruder and he "thinks" he might be able to make molds for considerably less than his first estimate. I brings up three potential problems. First, the up front investment is steep and therefore is not going to happen without pre-payment. Second, and this is rampant on this forum, people say they're interested without any commitment or obligation and then once the project is underway those "interested" are nowhere to be found. With just over 1000 t-top cars built, I don't have any way of gauging how many are actually still on the road but I'd have to think it is still 250+ or so? (Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can jump in here). Finally is the issue of pricing and delivery. Obviously, there would have to be a prepaid order system with firm delivery date but just some rough numbers (these have no bearing on reality here they are just examples) to ponder:

Assuming a person could secure tooling for $25k and the extrusion were $100 per set, 250 sets would run $50K or $200 selling price per set just to break even. Now nobody and I mean NOBODY, in their right mind would make that kind of investment and expect to just break even so then you have the issue of profit margin. What would be a fair return on an investment this large, something so extremely risky as this? 10%, 25%, 50% or even doubling your money: what's fair? The frugal buyers (Latin for cheapskates) are perfectly content letting someone else take the risk but then complaining about the high selling price. Then there are those that are willing to buy, no matter what the price, leaving themselves open to being gouged. I think there needs to be balance somewhere in between. I know I wouldn't risk that kind of money unless I could make a decent return on my money because there is simply to much to loose. Some other things to remember, and these are always "forgotten" when I see people estimate costs: R & D costs including shipping to and from the fabricator, waste, shipping costs of the finished goods including packaging, and most important, what is my TIME worth? So often, "sideliners" seem to think the R.O.I. is sufficient payment but they haven't risked a thing, yet the person heading the project has invested an enormous amount of time, as well as money in process and they should be compensated for that effort.

All of these factors will need to be included in my analysis but I think it is worth another look. First and formost, I will need a mint or near mint set of seals to take measurements and or 3D scans of.

Will

P.S. One more thing, shelf life. I am sure there will also be people that jump on board after the initial run is made so there would need to be extra sets made. However, all rubber products, even synthetics rubbers, have a shelf life and will start to oxidized and go rancid (for lack of better term) after a few years.

[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 10-24-2010).]

Well, you know I'm good for one set, and I have no problem commiting for another set on top of that. I would gladly pay $300 for a set, since each individual seal is running more than that right now, and NO ONE has a driver's side seal. Tim at FIeroparts still has a passenger seal I tihnk, if not there's one on Ebay. Also, like I said, I don't think smartaxel has used the set he got from timcha yet, and there was a car for sale in the mall that had a new uninstalled OEM set as well, but he doesn't respond to PM's. I'm sure we can find a set somehow.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Well, you know I'm good for one set, and I have no problem commiting for another set on top of that. I would gladly pay $300 for a set, since each individual seal is running more than that right now, and NO ONE has a driver's side seal. Tim at FIeroparts still has a passenger seal I tihnk, if not there's one on Ebay. Also, like I said, I don't think smartaxel has used the set he got from timcha yet, and there was a car for sale in the mall that had a new uninstalled OEM set as well, but he doesn't respond to PM's. I'm sure we can find a set somehow.

Amen to that brother! BTW, the corner molds are supposed to be sampled again next week! This will be a long process but we will find a way to get the scoop we need

Will

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Is your Fastback GT's trunk seal shot? My replacement GT trunk seals are now in production and shipping. $95 + $15 flat rate shipping to the US (contact me for international shipping rates) or buy two and pay only a single shipping rate! More info can be found here GT Trunk Seal Project

quote Originally posted by infinitewill: I have been talking to my extruder and he "thinks" he might be able to make molds for considerably less than his first estimate. I brings up three potential problems. First, the up front investment is steep and therefore is not going to happen without pre-payment. Second, and this is rampant on this forum, people say they're interested without any commitment or obligation and then once the project is underway those "interested" are nowhere to be found. With just over 1000 t-top cars built, I don't have any way of gauging how many are actually still on the road but I'd have to think it is still 250+ or so? (Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can jump in here). Finally is the issue of pricing and delivery. Obviously, there would have to be a prepaid order system with firm delivery date but just some rough numbers (these have no bearing on reality here they are just examples) to ponder: Assuming a person could secure tooling for $25k and the extrusion were $100 per set, 250 sets would run $50K or $200 selling price per set just to break even. Now nobody and I mean NOBODY, in their right mind would make that kind of investment and expect to just break even so then you have the issue of profit margin. What would be a fair return on an investment this large, something so extremely risky as this? 10%, 25%, 50% or even doubling your money: what's fair? The frugal buyers (Latin for cheapskates) are perfectly content letting someone else take the risk but then complaining about the high selling price. Then there are those that are willing to buy, no matter what the price, leaving themselves open to being gouged. I think there needs to be balance somewhere in between. I know I wouldn't risk that kind of money unless I could make a decent return on my money because there is simply to much to loose. Some other things to remember, and these are always "forgotten" when I see people estimate costs: R & D costs including shipping to and from the fabricator, waste, shipping costs of the finished goods including packaging, and most important, what is my TIME worth? So often, "sideliners" seem to think the R.O.I. is sufficient payment but they haven't risked a thing, yet the person heading the project has invested an enormous amount of time, as well as money in process and they should be compensated for that effort. All of these factors will need to be included in my analysis but I think it is worth another look. First and formost, I will need a mint or near mint set of seals to take measurements and or 3D scans of. Will P.S. One more thing, shelf life. I am sure there will also be people that jump on board after the initial run is made so there would need to be extra sets made. However, all rubber products, even synthetics rubbers, have a shelf life and will start to oxidized and go rancid (for lack of better term) after a few years.

Well if it is any help there were many more than the 1000+ factory cars. Per the Man who bought Cars and Concpets they sold many more kits than they did converted 1988 cars. Now I will say that still may not mean a lot left today but I would safe to say there are more than 250 T top cars still around.

You also have to factor in the many kit cars too that are people that are not really Fiero fans that are driving a 308 Kit car just because with the T top that was added.

I think the only way this will ever get done at a price and volume that most want it will take someone making the investment for it on their own or through a established company that would share the cost. Or if we could get a tool and die shop owner that owns a T top Fiero that could make the molds for this at a cheaper price.

The real issue is that it is hard to sell a set of gaskets for near $1000 when so many have hardly paid over that for their cars.

The real issue in the future I fear too is the fact that new Glass for the top will be hard to impossible to find. Even now glass in perfect condition is rare. You can find some that is mared but usable. They will be difficult to replace.
I can be safe to say we all take the tops out with a death grip now as if we break a top we are screwed.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-24-2010).]

Remember that the CJB and non CJB seals are different. There are two seals on each side, the one that goes around the top frame and the one on the removeable glass panel. The seals must be installed as a like pair as the glass panel seals are different lengths and slightly different shape. So when you are considering seal replacement you have to address both types of seals. Tim ( www.fieroparts.com/) has a rather large supply of CJB glass seals and only a few non CJB glass seals. So if someone is going to reproduce the seals, it should be CJB.

The non CJB seals were leaking on my 87 coupe, so I decided to replace them with F82 Camaro seals. In order to do this you have to cut and paste, do some slight body modification, and buy a new seat of regular door seals (from the Fiero Store). I documented this well in

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/104028.html

My seals have been in place for some time and there are no leaks. BTW, the FS door seals are of poor-medium quality. If I did it again, I would try to find good used door seals.

Jim

quote Originally posted by bowrapennocks: Remember that the CJB and non CJB seals are different. There are two seals on each side, the one that goes around the top frame and the one on the removeable glass panel. The seals must be installed as a like pair as the glass panel seals are different lengths and slightly different shape. So when you are considering seal replacement you have to address both types of seals. Tim ( www.fieroparts.com/) has a rather large supply of CJB glass seals and only a few non CJB glass seals. So if someone is going to reproduce the seals, it should be CJB. The non CJB seals were leaking on my 87 coupe, so I decided to replace them with F82 Camaro seals. In order to do this you have to cut and paste, do some slight body modification, and buy a new seat of regular door seals (from the Fiero Store). I documented this well in https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/104028.html My seals have been in place for some time and there are no leaks. BTW, the FS door seals are of poor-medium quality. If I did it again, I would try to find good used door seals. Jim

If anyone makes a set they will have to make the complete seal. Who would want ro go to the trouble to change on but not both seals on each door if it was available? They also should all be the CJB set as the guys with the 88's will want these and the rest will be glad to get the better seal. All the top hard parts are the same and interchangable. That part is not hard to figure out. The $$$$ is the main issue. The cost of the gaskets and the value of many of the cars that need them just don't jive.

At this point the cut and paste most likely will be all that is available for a good time to come unless someone is willing to invest. I just don't see that happening.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-25-2010).]

Well, if he charged $300 per set, he would only have to sell about 200 of them to turn a profit on a $50k investment. I've committed to 2, which is 1% of the total, so I would say it's possible for him to accomplish this. If anyone can do it, Will can. By the way Will, I'm gonna ship my seal to you this week if that's ok, unless you want me to hold off. I also tracked down the thread of the guy that MIGHT have a set of T-Top seals here...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/050942.html

and I PM'd smartaxel asking about the set he bought from timcha.

If the quality is the same or better than you current products and the price point is around $300. I'm in for one, possibly two sets ( the second at a later date). I have one car (non-CJB) that I need set of seals for, and I have also a complete set of tops I would install into my second car, if seals were available. I think that having the money upfront is a reasonable request as this ensures that people are committed. Tim did this previously when he attempted to develop them a few years ago ( although it was 2x+ the amount you may be thinking about ). And also , based on the items you have developed and sold, your integrity is rock solid and no one should have an issue paying ahead. It's just good business sense. -Jason

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A coward dies a thousand deaths..................A soldier dies but once.

[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 10-25-2010).]

Me too, count me in....

Kevin

Remember, if someone makes CJB seals, you only need to get the body seals made, as Tim has a large supply of CJB glass seals.

I purchased my NOS F82 Camaro seals from the guy who bought out all the C&C Camaro/Firebird parts. As I recall, he has about 800 sets of F82 seals and only sells a few per month at about $150 per pair.
Jim

$300-399 I feel would be enough to get many to buy. This is cheaper than the NOS ones if you can find them. Also if you need them that would be a fair price.

There is no way these can ever be as cheap as say a Camaro or Mustang. Just too little demand for the needed volume for that low of price.

In the $300-$400 range, I would be in for a set without question.

My t-top is in terrific shape. Fairly new paint job. Good interior. No rust. Runs great.

Leaks terribly. The seals are in very rough shape.

As it is now, the car is a dry, good weather toy. With new seals, I could drive it whenever I wanted, and also would be able to just wash it without putting towels down through the interior.

I'd be surprised if a run were to happen, but if it does, I am certainly in.

Otherwise, I will likely be trying to make seals for a Camaro work at some point down the road.

When I decided to replace my T-top seals, I looked into both the Camaro and Mustang seals. FYI, the Camaro seals are NOS manufactured by C&C back in the 80s or so. They are available from:

http://www.sunroofdoctor.com/

I also visited CJ Ponyparts (in Harrisburg, PA) who sells Mustang parts and looked at their seals.

http://www.cjponyparts.com/...w1Q&bhcd2=1288125652

Their t-top seals are reproductions; I could not get them to give me the name of their supplier, but I was assured that the supplier was not interested in making seals for the Fiero because he was a "Mustang" guy.
Jim

I would be able to commit for at least one spare set of CJB t-top seals and potentially for a second set as well.

Nelson

I would buy atleast one set of seals should they get made. I've seen this tried so many times before though, hopefully it will work one of these times.

I would charge it and take a 401K loan to pay it off if I had to in order to stop the leaking. The humidity inside the car has made mine a sunny day use only vehicle. Driving a car that pours water on the passenger during acceleration is not okay at any price (okay $300). I agree, make the CJB mold and an upgrade kit for the pre-88's.

updates?

Tim at Fieroparts.com had tracked down the original CJB molds from C&C. He tried to make a deal with the vendor, but the price was high and no deal was struck. His last contact with this vendor was about 10 years ago. Check with Tim.
Jim