No problem disagreeing...it shows that we are all using our heads for something other than to hold our hats.
As an Engineer, I've found that most any design can be made to work. It's just a question of how difficult. I'm sure you can figure out how to route the air, but I've found that small changes can make a huge different. It might take some trial and error. I'm running without an air dam and the car is about 10 to 15 degrees hotter on the expressway. You will probably need to open the fascia a bit. I don't think there are any fans that can move enough air to cool at expressway speeds, (the engine is making tons of heat which needs to be removed). All cars, Even the Porsche's and Lamborghini's have to force the air in at some level.
I understand your goals, which are to maximize trunk space and that is a worthy goal, one that Pontiac obviously neglected.
I'm also curious...your car seems to have a lot of surface rust, did it come from up north? I'm not used to seeing any rust on Texas vehicles. I've cut up Fieros with less rust. I'm sure you will POR-15 the whole thing at some point.
Whew, I'm glad that went over well... Some people just simply explode when disagreed with, but I love discussions and ideas! To my knowledge, the car was never up north, but if you ever get a moment, take a gander at the website in my signature, and you'll see where I did get it from. It sat for at least 10 years, but 12 is probably more like it. And yes, I plan to permanently prevent that rust from ever happening again, that is, after some major hours with a sandblaster, big burly wire brush, and good old sandpaper.
Back to the radiator... Pontiac's design for the radiator was great - if the hood is vented. The rad is slanted such that it pulls air up, and with a vent, it pulls it up and out. By flipping it, I created somewhat of a leading edge that *should* somewhat scoop that air. But that wasn't even the goal for me; the goal was to be able to flow the air directly back down, and deal with it there, and that would maximize the trunk volume. Now, a dam-less front fascia would be the perfect test for me, because of the way I'm planning to get the air to the rad. In the above images, you'll notice the leading edge protrudes ever so slightly below the fascia, and from underneath, the fascia is cut such that it looks like it were designed that way. A bit of sheet metal or fiberglass, and it could become an out-of-sight scoop for real, and the flow could be routed quickly out the sides, or whatever appears to be the best & easiest. I'm trying to give ideas for a somewhat mild mod that others could do, because I'm not really planning on having any of that stuff up there anyway, but seeing someone else take my idea and run with it and make it operational with minimal costs and time would be cool. I'll probably go ahead and prototype it out with cardboard and then maybe some sheet metal. Hopefully I can make it into a kit... Wouldn't that be cool? I'm headed to the junkyard on payday to cut the trunk floor (with the spare tire basin) out of some random car, and bring it back for test fits and such. That will give me a much better idea of what can be done with the air flow. Also, retaining the stock slant, and relocating the bottom bracket like 2" down and 3-4" back would drop it completely out of the way as well, but I don't have the bolts and such to test that theory out yet (but I am planning on trying both ways and see what would be the easiest and still effective).
Wow! There's some creative thinking, going on here. Although, I can't copy the idea of the spare tire laying flat, because I mounted the battery up there. It does, give me ideas for cleaning up the bulk head. Now, I just need a way to reduce the size or hide the brake booster.
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09:14 AM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12134 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
Which ever way you tilt the radiator, make sure you seal the air inlet side really tight. There have been countless overheating issues on here and many of them stem from not having the radiator sealed to the inlet side or a lack of fan shroud. Most of these car stay cool in town with the fan running, but can't maintain a decent temp at highway speeds.
Ideally you want your car to keep its cool above 35mph without any fan. A properly designed air inlet and sealed radiator will far exceed the airflow of the fan with the car in motion. The fan should only be for idle and stop/go traffic.
member fan motors will fail as will the fan relay. When they do, you would really like to be able to get the car home without a tow bill.
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11:47 AM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Which ever way you tilt the radiator, make sure you seal the air inlet side really tight. There have been countless overheating issues on here and many of them stem from not having the radiator sealed to the inlet side or a lack of fan shroud. Most of these car stay cool in town with the fan running, but can't maintain a decent temp at highway speeds.
Ideally you want your car to keep its cool above 35mph without any fan. A properly designed air inlet and sealed radiator will far exceed the airflow of the fan with the car in motion. The fan should only be for idle and stop/go traffic.
member fan motors will fail as will the fan relay. When they do, you would really like to be able to get the car home without a tow bill.
Excellent advice. This is something I have experienced, but I forgot to mention it in my post. 100% agreed, thanks fieroguru!
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12:32 PM
Nov 30th, 2008
Mark A. Klein Member
Posts: 608 From: Pleasantville IA Registered: Aug 2002
What are you going to do with the coolant bottle? Doesn't it need to stay above the radiator inlet? -Although I think I just answered my question...
Bob
In all honesty, I haven't decided yet on what should be done with the bottle. You could relocate it to the rear, since it's lightweight, but then again, it's operation is dependent upon the release valve built into the radiator cap, I think.... I never thought this thread would be so popular... You guys are taking me away from my concept build because I keep getting new ideas and have to try them! Today is shop cleanup day, because lastnight I made a huge mess doing a tutorial on how to completely disassemble your doors and with a small shop, you have to be militant in keeping it clean! I'll brainstorm some more today and see what I can come up with. I really need to find a cordless sawzall so I can go cut out the floor of a regular trunk with the spare tire dip in it, and see how it fits in with everything up front.
Could someone please post some rough dimensions of your spare tire? I don't have a Fiero spare, so I'm guessing at sizes (and using my Cadillac spare), but if I know the total diameter and the total width, I can calculate a lot better. Thanks!
For those who may be thinking of slanting their radiator toward the rear in the northern states: Be careful. If you run in snow, you'll be plowing all of it right onto the radiator. Lots of cold snow on a hot radiator isn't good. Tilted forward tends to slide it under the car. tilted back you'll be scooping it up.
In AZ, I don't see this as being a problem.
That's a LOT of space you freed up. Did I miss where you were putting the washer fluid?
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12:17 AM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
For those who may be thinking of slanting their radiator toward the rear in the northern states: Be careful. If you run in snow, you'll be plowing all of it right onto the radiator. Lots of cold snow on a hot radiator isn't good. Tilted forward tends to slide it under the car. tilted back you'll be scooping it up.
In AZ, I don't see this as being a problem.
That's a LOT of space you freed up. Did I miss where you were putting the washer fluid?
Yes, washer & coolant bottles haven't been decided yet, but they are in the back of my mind... And thanks for pointing out the snow; I hadn't thought of that. But if you look closely at my images, only about an inch, maybe 2 is protruding below the fascia; It's just a tiny bit lower than stock... So I don't *think* it would be an issue...
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08:01 AM
Dec 5th, 2008
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
The amount of rust I see on this chassis really freaks me out. Anybody that wants a cherry spaceframe should come to SW Nevada and get a rust free one for next to nothing from one of our many wreaking yards.
RUST? (Nevada doesn't get it).
"Watchutalkin'boutWillis?" ~Gary Coleman (One of the few humans on earth that would think the Fiero is too big!)
[This message has been edited by 85GT3.4Track4spdCar (edited 12-06-2008).]
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05:15 AM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
The amount of rust I see on this chassis really freaks me out. Anybody that wants a cherry spaceframe should come to SW Nevada and get a rust free one for next to nothing from one of our many wreaking yards.
RUST? (Nevada doesn't get it).
"Watchutalkin'boutWillis?" ~Gary Coleman (One of the few humans on earth that would think the Fiero is too big!)
"Driving directions to Nevada 2,078 mi – about 1 day 9 hours"
Heh, not really worth a cherry frame. There aren't many Fieros here in Alabama... actually not a whole lot in the Southeast that I know of (except of Florida... they have tons of em).
You can read why I'm still working with that rust-encrusted frame in my build thread if you want to.
Heh, not really worth a cherry frame. There aren't many Fieros here in Alabama... actually not a whole lot in the Southeast that I know of (except of Florida... they have tons of em).
Not sure how far you are from Toney, but doesn't Ed Parks have like 200 or something Fieros up there??
I'm sure your frame will be fine after you coat it, but if I were to do an extensive highly modified Fiero, I would start with a rust free frame. Plenty of them here in Texas as well.
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12:48 PM
Dec 8th, 2008
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Not sure how far you are from Toney, but doesn't Ed Parks have like 200 or something Fieros up there??
I'm sure your frame will be fine after you coat it, but if I were to do an extensive highly modified Fiero, I would start with a rust free frame. Plenty of them here in Texas as well.
Just visited The Fiero Factory this weekend... and it's over 300 Fieros... You can peek at the latter part of my build thread for pics of the visit if you want.
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10:18 AM
30+mpg Member
Posts: 4049 From: Russellville, AR Registered: Feb 2002
Honestly, I haven't even had time to mess with anything on my concept. Thanksgiving, Christmas, pouring time into keeping the aging Cadillac on the road, then buying another vehicle and fixing a few minor things on it have all completely consumed my time. Shoot, I got an '88 Formula over a month ago, and haven't even had time to go get it and bring it to my house!!
Anyway, from everything I've done, and all the positioning I've done, it looks like it'll work extremely well. When I get the '88 home, I'll most likely implement this concept and let you know how I did it, and how it works.
Until I actually get started on it, here's my plan, in case anyone else wants to try: - Drop the steering rack support brackets about 1.5" (probably just lengthen them so that area drops, that way it's still a solid mount). - Drop the front sway bar about 2". - Flip the bottom radiator support bracket so that it juts out forward instead of aft (so that the airflow is up & in, down & out). - Cut a trunk floor from some other car that has a small spare (Honda Civic maybe?), cut it down to size, and weld it in. - Work out the airflow leaving the radiator, and going around the spare tire bucket without jamming it underneath.
I've already posted these, but here they are again for refreshment. This shows the basic concept with the drops really well (note the bottom rad bracket isn't even fully mounted):
And here's how far it sticks down WITH all of those drops, in comparison to the front air dam:
And here's the room you gain:
The air will all be ducted into the rad so there's positive flow. For instance, the space above the radiator will have a nice curved cover over it to facilitate the air coming up, in, then down at a ~45o-ish angle through the radiator, and underneath will be boxed in as well, and dissipated so it doesn't jam up under the car.
If anyone decides to try this, post here please, otherwise I'll update it again when I do it (very soon hopefully)
[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-12-2009).]
cool idea ! just thinking out loud... with a 3 core rad that is more efficient.. you could size the rad smaller and not as tall this would allow you to tip it further forward perhaps... the space gained probably isnt worth the cost of the alum rad.. unless you were having one made anyways. another thought... a sirocco rad or two small honda rads might work too
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87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6 Bully Stage 2 clutch Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection 50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system T31/T04B H3 turbo and a S10 caliper conversion. Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure. Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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06:30 PM
Jul 12th, 2009
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
Wow, I thought this idea was dead, but so far, I've had at least 4 PMs and now a bump... Guess I better get my butt in gear and show some real results! -Paul
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08:52 AM
Apr 2nd, 2010
Mark A. Klein Member
Posts: 608 From: Pleasantville IA Registered: Aug 2002
