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old 2.8 vs newer 2.8 by Ruffy
Started on: 06-03-2010 12:18 PM
Replies: 23
Last post by: Ruffy on 06-10-2010 12:56 PM
Ruffy
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Report this Post06-03-2010 12:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
Hello all. I have an 86 fiero 4 spd. I'm not sure if the motor is original or not. OK my question is about the tranny. Will my 4 speed clutch and flywheel bolt up? The newer 2.8 is a 1989 5 speed. I plan on using my 4 speed tranny instead of the 5 because of the cost to switch them over.
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Report this Post06-03-2010 12:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
it should bolt up, but the engines are not the same... You may have to swap heads, intake and accessories. What engine ('89) is this from?
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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-04-2010 08:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
The motor is from a Beretta. I know I will have to change some wire and the brain box around to get this motor to run. I'm just worried about the tranny. Something a about balanced .
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bowrapennocks
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Report this Post06-04-2010 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bowrapennocksDirect Link to This Post
85-87 Fiero 2.8s have an unbalance in the engine, compensated for by an unbalanced flywheel, so that the whole assembly is balanced. The 88 Fiero has an internally balanced engine and a neutrally balanced flywheel. If you put the wrong flywheel on the engine, you get a lot of vibration and early engine failure. I believe an 89 Baretta should have a balanced engine and hence use a neutrally balanced flywheel. You should be able to look at either the flexplate or flywheel that came off the 89 engine to verify which you have.
Jim
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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-04-2010 10:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffyDirect Link to This Post
Thank you much! That was the info I needed to know. Bad thing is my old 2.8 has the aluminum flywheel witch I know is really pricey. Anyway of getting my old flywheel balanced? Also what markings should I be looking for to see if its newer/balance?
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Report this Post06-05-2010 01:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierokingClick Here to visit Fieroking's HomePageClick Here to Email FierokingDirect Link to This Post
If I am not mistaken the 89 Beretta's 2.8 is an aluminum head model which can not be swapped into the Fiero, You can use the block but the heads, intake system are totally different.

Joe Sokol

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88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-05-2010 09:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffyDirect Link to This Post
Yes it looks like a different motor all together. But hell if people are putting 3.8 supercharger motors in I'm sure this would be a much easier swap?
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Report this Post06-05-2010 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Four_hundred_86Click Here to Email Four_hundred_86Send a Private Message to Four_hundred_86Direct Link to This Post
Its a different motor . You'll need an 88 flywheel about $60 a 7730 or similar computer. Basically everything to do.a 31 34 3100 3400 swap honestly I'm not sure what the gain is from an alum 28 but these others are a huge advantage over stock
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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-05-2010 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
Well I have the complete Beretta so getting a computer and flywheel isn't a big deal. I just wish I could of used the aluminum one off the old motor
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Report this Post06-06-2010 09:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bowrapennocksDirect Link to This Post
A flywheel shop sould be able to balance it. I just saw a nice 3400 install yesterday at our Fiero club picnic. Great job, but as the man says, install of those engines is a lot of work.
Jim

[This message has been edited by bowrapennocks (edited 06-06-2010).]

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Report this Post06-07-2010 07:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianDirect Link to This Post
I believe General motors LP9 is a 2.8 used in fwd saab will work.
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Report this Post06-07-2010 08:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
Honestly, the Gen II 2.8 is nothing to write home about... it actually is slightly lower output than the Fiero 2.8... the Gen II 3.1 was about equivalent HP with some more torque.
2.8 MPFI - 130HP/160TQ
3.1 MPFI - 140HP/180TQ

If you are going to stick with a 60* motor you would be better off going Gen III same amount of work for significantly more power.
3100 - 175HP/195TQ (MY2000+ Large Port version)
3400 - 185HP/205TQ

Or heck with a few external parts, you could go with the LX9 3500 (non-VVT) with its 200HP/220TQ...

For the least amount of work the Gen I 160HP 3.4 F-body motor is better than either of the Gen II options...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 06-07-2010).]

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carbon
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Report this Post06-07-2010 08:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post

carbon

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...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 06-07-2010).]

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Report this Post06-07-2010 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pegasus87Click Here to Email pegasus87Send a Private Message to pegasus87Direct Link to This Post
well I use to have a 2.8 from a beretta in my car after the 2.5 decided to die. and about the only thing i liked about it was where the alternator was placed. but i had to notch out the deck lid support. The heads from the newer W engine block wont work with the fiero intake unless they were tapped to fit the bolt pattern. also you cant swap cranks to get around the balance issues because the mains on the new block are about 50 thousands larger. lol larger means more rotating mass = less torque which is a bad thing. if you wanted to use a 2.8 i would suggest 3.1 pushrods or new 2.8 injectors.


oh but i was still a nube when i put that engine in. was my first engine swap. but i went back to the stock 2.8 after spinning a rod bearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27hwyiRLAmE

[This message has been edited by pegasus87 (edited 06-07-2010).]

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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-07-2010 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
Well I'm going to try to keep this Beretta motor complete instead of using anything off the fiero motor. The Beretta motor is no where near stock. With only 10,000 miles on it sense complete rebuild plus its been dynoed at 200hp. So I'm not looking to swap intakes or heads at all. I just hope when I pull the old motor out of the fiero that its a newer one because I would love to use that aluminum flywheel.
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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-08-2010 11:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
I know one thing is for sure. I asked before if anyone else done a Beretta swap and didn't get any replys at all. But you all did help me with most of it. So far I know I have to use the flywheel and computer. That don't sound to bad at all to do. I really hate electric work to the fullest! So if anyone can help me out there it would be greatly appreciated. Like what wires need to be changed and do I need a complete wire harness? ? Sense no one has done a swap like this one ill keep up to date with you all with pics. I will be switching job and have a week and half to do fiero work.
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carbon
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Report this Post06-08-2010 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ruffy:

Well I'm going to try to keep this Beretta motor complete instead of using anything off the fiero motor. The Beretta motor is no where near stock. With only 10,000 miles on it sense complete rebuild plus its been dynoed at 200hp. So I'm not looking to swap intakes or heads at all. I just hope when I pull the old motor out of the fiero that its a newer one because I would love to use that aluminum flywheel.


A Gen II 2.8 that dynos at 200HP??? I'd love to see a list of what work has been done to achieve that...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 06-08-2010).]

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Ramsespride
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Report this Post06-09-2010 02:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RamsesprideSend a Private Message to RamsesprideDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


A Gen II 2.8 that dynos at 200HP??? I'd love to see a list of what work has been done to achieve that...



Its not that difficult. My ex gfs brother had a beretta zwhatever and it had 210. Twas an X dragster car however but the previe had alot of money and time to work on the car. As i recall the brother blew the headgaskets a few times just driving it around so im not 100% sure that an engine of that HP would be economical to install in a already pricey tendancied vehicle.

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when in doubt, turn and shout, to your nearest local old timer help! He just might have a way to fix your rustbucket!

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carbon
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Report this Post06-09-2010 07:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ramsespride:


Its not that difficult. My ex gfs brother had a beretta zwhatever and it had 210. Twas an X dragster car however but the previe had alot of money and time to work on the car. As i recall the brother blew the headgaskets a few times just driving it around so im not 100% sure that an engine of that HP would be economical to install in a already pricey tendancied vehicle.



Then it is that difficult... +70HP on a Gen II aluminum head engine without a power adder would be quite difficult, as you pointed out by your ex's brother having a lot of time and money to work on the car and blowing head gaskets repeatedly...

The TGP 3.1 only had 205HP, with a meagerly sized turbo... Like I said, I would love to see the modifications undertaken to get this level of power out of a N/A 2.8 MPFI...
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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-09-2010 07:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


A Gen II 2.8 that dynos at 200HP??? I'd love to see a list of what work has been done to achieve that...



In fact I don't think its 200. It said 202 or 205 haha. Its not hard to do at all. Just know what you are doing and make everything match. I've seen to many toss in a huge cam and expect 900hp just for that. Those usually are the inexperienced people that call them 3/4 cams. But all in all this motor sounds like a v8! Very nice sound it has. Its really funny I posted this motor with a 5speed and no one wanted it.
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Report this Post06-09-2010 08:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
I have also seen what people do with 60* V6 engines and in one of your other threads you say that the motor is well documented and you have dyno graphs...

All I am asking is what was done to make a 130HP stock 2.8, with notoriously long narrow uneven length intake runners, make 205HP naturally aspirated. That is a 57% increase in output.

 
quote
Chevrolet made a pace car out of the Beretta in 1990. This car of course had to be special and so did the engine. The traditional cast iron block was first tossed in favor of GM's high performance V6/60-degree aluminum bow tie block. With the block punched out to 3.4 liters, a compression ratio of 10.7:1 and filled with GM and aftermarket goodies, like a Crower solid lifter camshaft with .459-inch max intake lift and .484-inch exhaust lift, Iskenderian solid lifters, custom-made Smith Brothers pushrods, Crane aluminum roller rocker arms, special studs from Ryan Falconer Racing Engines, the engine produced 225 horsepower.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 06-09-2010).]

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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-09-2010 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

I have also seen what people do with 60* V6 engines and in one of your other threads you say that the motor is well documented and you have dyno graphs...

All I am asking is what was done to make a 130HP stock 2.8, with notoriously long narrow uneven length intake runners, make 205HP naturally aspirated. That is a 57% increase in output.





I don't see how you think this would be hard at all. 200-205hp is What I said not 250. Not that 250 would be hard to do. Just keep an open mind about things! Hell look at those RC motors. Smaller then your fist but pushes 5hp. Also remember this, I've built many many motors for 1/4 mile purpose only. So for someone to say 200hp out of a v6 is impossible, well that like a slap in the face.
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Report this Post06-10-2010 12:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
So for someone to say 200hp out of a v6 is impossible, well that like a slap in the face.


LOL... I didn't say any V6... I said a GM 2.8L Generation II Aluminum head V6. Of course, there are other V6 engines that do 200-300+HP all day long. You also stated in another thread you bought the Beretta with the engine in it and didn't build it yourself... but if you don't want to share what was done to it, being well documented as you stated, that's fine. RC motors have nothing to do with the intake and head design of a Gen II 2.8.

This has nothing to do with being open/closed minded... I am one of the biggest fans of the 60* family of engines on this forum, but I do know when a claim sounds a little bit out there...

Good luck with your swap!
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Ruffy
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Report this Post06-10-2010 12:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RuffySend a Private Message to RuffyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


LOL... I didn't say any V6... I said a GM 2.8L Generation II Aluminum head V6. Of course, there are other V6 engines that do 200-300+HP all day long. You also stated in another thread you bought the Beretta with the engine in it and didn't build it yourself... but if you don't want to share what was done to it, being well documented as you stated, that's fine. RC motors have nothing to do with the intake and head design of a Gen II 2.8.

This has nothing to do with being open/closed minded... I am one of the biggest fans of the 60* family of engines on this forum, but I do know when a claim sounds a little bit out there...

Good luck with your swap!


Very true. I didn't build it myself so it is possible that the motor could be junk and have nothing inside it whatsoever. But a very good friend of mine built this and I know his work. This Guy is/was so into the Beretta cars its not funny. I have this folder that is filled with tons of documents of this car. I will have to go look into the folder again and post some of the things done to it. I will also take pics of the dyno slip that printed off the machine and the graft printed chart so you can look at the power curve.
One thing is for sure. I've never messed around with a GM 2.8 and don't know there capabilities are. But one thing I have learned over my years of motors is never judge a motor for its stock limmits. If the intake is blocking so major HP then build a new intake!

Remember this bit of information. All a motor is is a fancy air pump, the more air in and out the more HP you get! Never give up...
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