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WCF headers... any good? by timgray
Started on: 05-05-2010 05:43 PM
Replies: 14
Last post by: Fast Red on 05-10-2010 06:06 PM
timgray
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Report this Post05-05-2010 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
I see I can get the WCF headers AND crossover pipe for less than the price of a set of sprints.

I have 2 questions...

1 - Are they any good? I.E. built well, made of THICK metal, welded nice?
2 - How fast will they rust out? Is there any header paint that will stick and last? The car will never ever be driven in the snow/winter.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post05-05-2010 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
I helped with an installation that included a pair of stainless steel WCF 3800SC Fiero headers. The look very nice, are well made and run the exhaust like the OEM system does. Its a great way to have a street legal exhaust system with a CAT. However, for the many things that you gain, you are installing a system that is more restrictive than many of the alternative less expensive solutions out there.
As for rusting; all mild steel headers will rust. The secret to protecting them from rust is using a Jet Hot coating or blasting them and using high temperature silicon based paint. However, paint while it will greatly extends the life, only protects the outside of the pipes.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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timgray
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Report this Post05-05-2010 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
Really? they are more restrictive? what about compared to simply porting the Ol' Fiero logs? Or is there another low cost alternative?

WCF headers, Sprint headers, port your stock ones. I haven't heard of any other choice that is less than $400.00 for a full set + larger crossover.
------------------




Best RV, Camper, and Trailer dealer in West Michigan. http://www.cliffstrailersales.com and he's a fiero owner too!

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 05-05-2010).]

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Fast Red
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Report this Post05-05-2010 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fast RedClick Here to Email Fast RedSend a Private Message to Fast RedDirect Link to This Post

Dennis LaGrua

Could you explain how the headers and exhaust are more restrictive

"However, for the many things that you gain, you are installing a system that is more restrictive than many of the alternative less expensive solutions out there."
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MountainHiBlue87GT
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Report this Post05-07-2010 02:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MountainHiBlue87GTSend a Private Message to MountainHiBlue87GTDirect Link to This Post
Dennis:

I do not understand your comment about WCF's headers being more restrictive. Compare my 1 5/8 stainless, coated, and wrapped WCF headers to something else for a Fiero. Heck, a 3800's ports and displacement is so small that WCF's 1.5" headers are huge compared to stock manifolds. Draw a 1.5" or 1 5/8" circle around your exhaust port and tell me that WCFs headers are more restrictive than what?

Some pics to compare with a stock setup or any other set of headers. Dennis, you have no proof of what you are saying, but neither do I. The pics below tell the story though, I think.





Stainless (never rust) Do they look restrictive? Nobody (including Dennis) has ever compared this to any other header in a scientific way.

They are built on a mule engine by an American craftsman and the welds and material are great. They are pretty, doncha think?



Coated (personal overkill)



Wrapped (best thing you can do to keep temps down in the engine compartment).



Pretty good pic of Thermo Tech Copper Wrap



Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 05-07-2010).]

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Oreif
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Report this Post05-07-2010 07:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I helped with an installation that included a pair of stainless steel WCF 3800SC Fiero headers.




Dennis, I believe the OP is asking about the headers for the 60* V-6 engines not the 3800 engines.

timgray ~ First are you talking about the shorty headers similar to the Sprints or the long tube headers? (both in steel are less expensive than the Sprints)
The shorty's offer the same gains as the Sprints. They will give you about an 8-10 hp gain and will do well if you do other mods like a Trueleo intake later.
The long tube headers are nice, but on a stock engine they will lower your torque slightly. The long tubes work best on modified engines they can utilize the higher flow better. Especially if you are thinking of porting heads and a cam in the future.

If you buy the regular steel, You can either get them coated yourself locally (usually less expensive than buying the coated ones at WCF) or use a quality header paint like POR-20.

Hope this helps.

------------------

Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

ZZ4 Powered !!

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-07-2010).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post05-07-2010 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Oreif:


Dennis, I believe the OP is asking about the headers for the 60* V-6 engines not the 3800 engines.

timgray ~ First are you talking about the shorty headers similar to the Sprints or the long tube headers? (both in steel are less expensive than the Sprints)
The shorty's offer the same gains as the Sprints. They will give you about an 8-10 hp gain and will do well if you do other mods like a Trueleo intake later.
The long tube headers are nice, but on a stock engine they will lower your torque slightly. The long tubes work best on modified engines they can utilize the higher flow better. Especially if you are thinking of porting heads and a cam in the future.

If you buy the regular steel, You can either get them coated yourself locally (usually less expensive than buying the coated ones at WCF) or use a quality header paint like POR-20.

Hope this helps.


I reread the post. You are correct. My response was clearly a mistake. Can't comment on the WCF 2.8L headers other than that they look less restrictive than stock but almost anything is less restrictive than the stock 2.8L exhaust. A good thing to consider though is cost vs the anticipated horsepower gain.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-09-2010).]

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uhlanstan
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Report this Post05-09-2010 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanClick Here to Email uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanDirect Link to This Post
In 2.8 V6 Fiero dyno test done during the late 90,s the sprints and WCF did not produce the horse power gain that the ported stock manifolds produced(this surprised me) ,,I think it was oneof the michigan fiero clubs that did the test,, the V6 was also dyno,d with a balanced engine, and with various modification ,this was the test where the stock air intake was shown to be superior to any cold air system..,, and the stock chip was superior ,,Im sure arn and dennis remember this test,,Im to lazy to look it up..
...Any GM V6 or V8 Fiero should include a turbo muffler ,,many turbo muffler comparo dyno test have shown that the turbo,s produce more power than an open exhaust or my previous fave the glasspack..
..If to lazy to do research ,,use a Dynomat,,I am running one,,Im sad to report my dyno mat is far superior to my former love the Glasspack.. the real surprise was an increase in gas milage ..My love affair with the MrS. glasspack is over, I loved her for 30years,,but the young exciting dynomat outhumps mrs.cherrybomb in every category, ms.cherry bomb only has a loudmouth,, now If a young man wants to live a faster life,ms,dynomat is dynamite ..Ms, Dyno mat spread them wide for the dyno test,when you mount ms.dynomat you are in for a faster , more satisfying ride ..
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Oreif
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Report this Post05-09-2010 08:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:

In 2.8 V6 Fiero dyno test done during the late 90,s the sprints and WCF did not produce the horse power gain that the ported stock manifolds produced(this surprised me)


Back in the early 2000's a member here who worked at a dyno shop in Georgia, 1FST2M6, did dyno testing on the stock ported, Sprints, WCF exhaust, and the FOCOA exhaust.
The engines used was totally stock. The ported stock exhaust gained about 2hp, Sprints/WCF shorty's was 6hp, the full headers (WCF and FOCOA) both gained about 7.5hp but the torque curve changed slightly reducing upper rpm torque.

Here is the dyno run of stock vs. stock ported exhaust manifolds: (2.8L/auto trans)


Here is the FOCOA full headers vs. stock: (2.8L/5-spd manual)




 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:

..If to lazy to do research ,,use a Dynomat,,I am running one,,Im sad to report my dyno mat is far superior to my former love the Glasspack.. the real surprise was an increase in gas milage ..My love affair with the MrS. glasspack is over, I loved her for 30years,,but the young exciting dynomat outhumps mrs.cherrybomb in every category, ms.cherry bomb only has a loudmouth,, now If a young man wants to live a faster life,ms,dynomat is dynamite ..Ms, Dyno mat spread them wide for the dyno test,when you mount ms.dynomat you are in for a faster , more satisfying ride ..


"Dynomat" is used to reduce interior noise, It is a mat that you install between the floorboards/firewall and interior carpeting. http://www.dynamat.com/

I think you mean "Dynomax" they make mufflers and exhaust components. http://www.dynomax.com/

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-09-2010).]

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mcaanda
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Report this Post05-09-2010 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mcaandaClick Here to Email mcaandaSend a Private Message to mcaandaDirect Link to This Post
While I was in Fresno working with a guy on 3800 SC headers, I used this shop here for coatings and would so again:

http://www.capsbhc.com/





The coating was great for keeping the heat down in the car, but personally I would NOT use their CermaKrome coating again. While you "could" shave in it when it was from the shop to your block, once the motor was fired up that's all she wrote. Prior to install and purchase I spoke to them about the heat caused by the SC'd engine, and they thought that it would not effect the look of the coating. I guess they use some aluminum in the coating to get the shine like you see.

Being that I wanted the look as well as the heat restriction I ended up going against their recommendation of their "turbo coating" which was black or grey. The inside as well as the outside of the headers are coated for rust prevention as well.

After the first run, this is what I ended up with:



While some prefer header wrap, personally when I do it again, I will be going with the turbo coating.

--Allen



------------------
Is this where I insert something witty?

[This message has been edited by mcaanda (edited 05-10-2010).]

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Arns85GT
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Report this Post05-09-2010 09:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTDirect Link to This Post
Oreif, the reason for the loss of low end torque with those headers is not because they are "long" headers. It is because they are not long enough.

The range for the 2.8 or 173ci engine for header primary pipes is 22" to 36" depending on the cam, timing, valves. If you install a header that has a 22" - 24" primary, which is the case, you end up with a high rpm exhaust tuning. This is the problem with all of the headers made for the Fiero. They just don't get out to the length needed for low end torque. The optimum length for primary pipes for the 2.8 is about 34" with 1.5" pipe. This gives the best low end torque while still giving high rpm flow. True, the 22" headers give better high rpm flow, but, there are not many 2.8's running at 7,000+ rpm.

Consult the formula set out in the book, Scientific Design Exhaust & Intake Systems by Philip H. Smith and John C Morrison. (They have more letters after their names than a bar code.) They did extensive research on 4 and 6 cylinder engines and documented that research well.

This is the reason I've designed and built true long tube headers. They are not yet ready to show and when the system is done I'll be posting it with dyno results. I'll be having them ceramic coated because they are mild steel.

However, I believe that any header is better than the stock exhaust. I just can't think of a restrictive header that I have seen to date. I also believe that the best of them is Trueleo's based on my reading. If I wasn't going through the time and expense of building my own, I'd be buying his.

Hope this helps

Arn

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 05-09-2010).]

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Report this Post05-09-2010 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for uhlanstanClick Here to Email uhlanstanSend a Private Message to uhlanstanDirect Link to This Post
...Sorry about the Dynomax screw up,been hit in the head to many times....
,,thanks for the dyno post had not seen this before ,,The wcf header and sprint had shown a 4 to 5HP increase in previous test or less ,,these were the shorty WCF headers
.. You only have to eyeball a stock Fiero manifold to know removing the metal wall block & weld will make a big difference ,,a 2 hp increase does not seem realistic .
..I have read reports on this forum where the poster said he only gained 3 hp,from porting the stock manifolds, probably a bad porting job..There is a Dam in thestockmanifolds
But I like the dyno test on the others brings me more up to date..
...the WCF headers shown are exactly what seems to be needed on a 2.8header
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Oreif
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Report this Post05-10-2010 12:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT:

Oreif, the reason for the loss of low end torque with those headers is not because they are "long" headers. It is because they are not long enough.

The range for the 2.8 or 173ci engine for header primary pipes is 22" to 36" depending on the cam, timing, valves. If you install a header that has a 22" - 24" primary, which is the case, you end up with a high rpm exhaust tuning. This is the problem with all of the headers made for the Fiero. They just don't get out to the length needed for low end torque. The optimum length for primary pipes for the 2.8 is about 34" with 1.5" pipe. This gives the best low end torque while still giving high rpm flow. True, the 22" headers give better high rpm flow, but, there are not many 2.8's running at 7,000+ rpm.

Consult the formula set out in the book, Scientific Design Exhaust & Intake Systems by Philip H. Smith and John C Morrison. (They have more letters after their names than a bar code.) They did extensive research on 4 and 6 cylinder engines and documented that research well.

This is the reason I've designed and built true long tube headers. They are not yet ready to show and when the system is done I'll be posting it with dyno results. I'll be having them ceramic coated because they are mild steel.

However, I believe that any header is better than the stock exhaust. I just can't think of a restrictive header that I have seen to date. I also believe that the best of them is Trueleo's based on my reading. If I wasn't going through the time and expense of building my own, I'd be buying his.

Hope this helps

Arn



Arn,

I do know "why" there is a loss in torque.
I was just pointing out that on a stock 2.8L you will get a loss with the long tube version.

 
quote
Originally posted by uhlanstan:

You only have to eyeball a stock Fiero manifold to know removing the metal wall block & weld will make a big difference ,,a 2 hp increase does not seem realistic .
..I have read reports on this forum where the poster said he only gained 3 hp,from porting the stock manifolds, probably a bad porting job..There is a Dam in thestockmanifolds



While I have heard other gains by porting the stock manifolds, 1FST2M6 is the only one I have ever seen post an actual dyno of the difference.
While the metal does restrict the flow, the stock logs themselves are not a good flow design. So even ported they are not the very efficient.
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Pyrthian
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Report this Post05-10-2010 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
I have WCF long tubes on my 3.1
I bought them used from someone else
so - apparantly - they can last
they are also coated
I did have to repair pinholes in the collector on one of them
I cant say "yay or nay" to them - they were installed while doing other changes - including changing from a auto to a manual
I do think the O2 bung is WWAAYY to far down the y-pipe tho.
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Fast Red
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Report this Post05-10-2010 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fast RedClick Here to Email Fast RedSend a Private Message to Fast RedDirect Link to This Post
Where is the 02 in the Y pipe and what is to far down?
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