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Anyone AutoX their Fiero? by Blueiii
Started on: 01-25-2010 09:21 AM
Replies: 22
Last post by: Primaris on 05-17-2010 08:50 PM
Blueiii
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Report this Post01-25-2010 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlueiiiClick Here to Email BlueiiiSend a Private Message to BlueiiiDirect Link to This Post
Looking for AutoX guys to share ideas, tips and tricks with. (Let me rephrase - looking for autoX guys to give me fiero tips and tricks!)
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Report this Post01-25-2010 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
Depends on the auto X group you're running with. I've run with the Vette guys down in Bowling Green KY and the Miata folks in Lexington, KY. Both are fun but, they set up totally different courses. Best advice I can give is you'll want lots of torque, big brakes and the best handling tires you can come up with. Yeah, there's a whole lot more to it but, start there and tweak.

Edited: Oh Yeah, take a (auto X) driving course, it's money well spent. Slower can be faster.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-25-2010).]

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Pyrthian
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Report this Post01-25-2010 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
I've been looking to Auto-x for a while now - but somehow, every season - something holds me up.....
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Dracor
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Report this Post01-25-2010 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DracorSend a Private Message to DracorDirect Link to This Post
I hope to be autox'ing my fiero this summer. So I am looking fore tips as well
From what I have seen, you don't need big brakes for autox. That might just be the courses close to me though. Speeds are usually less than 60mph even for the powerful cars.

For Roadracing on the other hand, big brakes are very important.

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Report this Post01-25-2010 04:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KitskaboodleClick Here to Email KitskaboodleSend a Private Message to KitskaboodleDirect Link to This Post
If you're talking racing STOCK Fiero's than I would strongly suggest you contact Fierobear here on the forum
regarding BRIAN GEYER. (Brian isn't on this forum as I recall)

Anyways, Brian Geyer has been racing his stock 88 GT for years and he would have a "heaping helpin" of info
regarding racing stock Fiero's!

I have been on a few "ride-alongs" with him at Thunderhill and believe me, he can embarrass many newer/bigger displacement
cars on the track. (in the corners that is) And, his car is flat out, bone stock!

Kit
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blackrams
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Report this Post01-25-2010 04:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dracor:

From what I have seen, you don't need big brakes for autox. That might just be the courses close to me though. Speeds are usually less than 60mph even for the powerful cars.

For Roadracing on the other hand, big brakes are very important.



Way too many variables to say you do or don't need better brakes, obviously, the course you're driving, the tires you're using, the suspension set up, the skill of the driver and the speed attained will make a huge difference in what kind of braking is needed.
This is what I believe, you can't have too much power and for every pony you've got for go, you need an equivalent amount of braking horsepower for whoa.
I've run on too many different courses to say flatly that any one set up is best. For me, I'll take all the braking hp I can get and then use it if I need it.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-25-2010).]

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Jarhead 2m4
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Report this Post01-25-2010 04:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jarhead 2m4Click Here to visit Jarhead 2m4's HomePageClick Here to Email Jarhead 2m4Send a Private Message to Jarhead 2m4Direct Link to This Post
I used to auto-x my '88 GT. It was fun, not sure if I really want to get back into it. Good Luck!
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Blueiii
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Report this Post01-25-2010 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlueiiiClick Here to Email BlueiiiSend a Private Message to BlueiiiDirect Link to This Post
I've done it for a few years, actually. Right now I am on GARBAGE tires, however since I'm attending grad school money is a bit tight.

I did decide, though, that if I pull off all As again this term I will reward myself with a set of good racing tires. I don't really drive the Fiero much as its a second vehicle, so I can slap some good rubber on there and call it a day.

I also am in ES for the time being.

Unfortunately my car is an auto. I purchased it originally with the intent of swapping a 3800 in it, and the auto was a better fit. I have since changed direction a bit and want to build it to be an autoX car, which being an automatic is the biggest downfall I see.

So, my questions are:
1.) Anyone have tires that they would recommend for the fiero?
2.) How adjustable is the alignment? What are the best specs for alignment?
3.) Does anyone know if I can upgrade to grand am brakes and remain in ES?
4.) How bad is the manual conversion???
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av8fiero
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Report this Post01-25-2010 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for av8fieroClick Here to Email av8fieroSend a Private Message to av8fieroDirect Link to This Post
If you're just starting out looking to go have some fun the first thing I would do is make sure your suspension is in good working order. A freshly rebuilt suspension with all new bushings, ball joints, etc will go a long way to helping you run a fast time and you having fun. An upgrade to poly bushings helps a bit as well. A rear sway bar is a nice addition too, it will help take out some understeer[push] and help the car turn in better. I personally didn't like adding any more[bigger] front bar to my car as that just brought the understeer back that a rear bar took out. I did try running with no front bar at all but it actually had too much front bite and would oversteer badly, way too tailhappy for me. Springs are another area to play around with, but again it's all about experimentation and finding a rate you like front and rear. There are a few different rate factory springs out there. I would start out with the softest[lowest rate] fronts and the stiffest[highest rate] rears you can find.

A set of adjustable koni shocks are a big improvement over any non adjustable shock. For me and the way I drive I like the fronts set to full soft and the rears set to full stiff, it helps the car rotate and turn in better[single adjustable shocks].You may like a different setting depending on how you drive, the nice thing about the koni's is the adjustability, you should be able to find a setting combo you like. There are double adjustable shocks but I haven't played around with them on my car. They allow you to control the compression and rebound rates independently of each other, allowing some pretty precise adjustments.

Zero toe or a tiny bit of toe out will also help with turn in, but if you're going to drive it on the street it will be twitchy and darty. Some negative camber, in the front especially, will help with grip in the corners, but again it's a trial and error thing to find a setup you like, and again if you drive it regularly on the street you'll wear the inside of the tires rapidly with a lot of negative camber. The whole idea is to get all four corners working together, you want the car to be as neutral as possible with the way you drive it.

If you have a big pocket book you can go with a coilover setup and have near infinite suspension adjustabilty, but with some experimentation you can get a pretty good setup with mostly factory parts for much cheaper. It all depends on what you want to do and how much cash you want to spend and what you want out of your car.

Most [not all] autox courses are set up for relatively lower speeds and they are usually less than 5 min long. For the typical course you don't need monster brakes, but a good set of pads can make a world of difference, ebc has some excellent options for pads, hawk is another good option. They have pads specifically designed for autox that offer excellent clamping force and reduced fade characteristics. Tires will make the biggest difference in how you go through the cones. Hoosier, yokohama, bf goodrich, bridgestone, and some others have some great options out there for autox tires. The best place for tires and tire info that I've found is TIRERACK, talk to their tech reps, they're there to help you make the best choice for tires for what you expect to get out of them.

You could also try lightening the car up as much as you can if it's going to strictly be a track car. Autox courses are usually all about maintaining momentum through the cones, and the less weight you're hauling around the easier it will be to maintain that momentum. Those are SOME of the things you can do to your fiero, I'm sure I have left alot out, but they're a good place to start. Most importantly, go out there and have fun, you don't have to run a blistering time to have a good time. Start out with a sound car and go with the cheap/free mods and go from there. good luck on the autox courses.

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88blackchopv8

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 01-25-2010).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post01-25-2010 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post01-26-2010 01:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Jarhead 2m4Click Here to visit Jarhead 2m4's HomePageClick Here to Email Jarhead 2m4Send a Private Message to Jarhead 2m4Direct Link to This Post
Get out of ES! As long as there is a '93 MR2 you will not be competitive.
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Blueiii
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Report this Post01-27-2010 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlueiiiClick Here to Email BlueiiiSend a Private Message to BlueiiiDirect Link to This Post
And your suggestion is?

CSP - still same problem
SM2 - MUCH bigger problems
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Blueiii
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Report this Post05-13-2010 08:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlueiiiClick Here to Email BlueiiiSend a Private Message to BlueiiiDirect Link to This Post
Thought I would bring this back from the dead.

I had a set of R6's I was supposed to pick up this week, but the seller ended up out of town so I can't get them until next week. I have a race on Sunday, so it will be the garbage tires that were on the car when I bought it. (Felt like they were greased!)

I'm hoping to stay in ES, which means I CAN run adjustable shocks and race tires. As far as the rest of the suspension goes, a rebuild may be in order. We only have 1 MR2 that runs in this region, and the owner's been trying to sell it for a while since she bought a WRX.

Another potential problem I would like some advice on - I have an automatic. I'm not new to AutoX, however this is the first auto I've owned since 2000. Any suggestions on how to get the most out of it on a track? It seemed like it was shifting WAY too much last time I ran. Is it safe to just put it in first, get up to speed, then pop it in second?
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Report this Post05-13-2010 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeDirect Link to This Post
So far, I have autocrossed my Fiero twice. First time was the typical "cones in a parking lot" scenario... never made it out of 2nd gear (Getrag 5-spd). Second time, they coned off a section of a road course... made it into 3rd gear in the big sweeping turn.

That said, my Fiero will never be competitive in autocross. Due to all the modifications (engine / tranny swap, Grand Am brakes, major body mods, etc), I get tossed in with the purpose-built race cars. But that doesn't really matter to me. The purpose is to have fun driving my car. Everything else is secondary.

It helps to have an experienced driver ride with you. He/she can give you tips on how to improve your driving.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 05-13-2010).]

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Report this Post05-13-2010 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula OwnerSend a Private Message to Formula OwnerDirect Link to This Post
My 2 cents. I used to AutoX quite a bit. First, with a CRX that wasn't competitive since it was the uber high MPG version with a whopping 60 or so HP. Next was a 5L Mustang. It probably would have been fairly competitive had I given it the full treatment (Koni's, tires, etc), but it never would have been capable of winning at the national level due to the 5.7L Camaros. Next was the Fiero, which I bought in large part with AutoX'ing in mind. At the time, I think it was still competitive at the national level in CS. I've AutoX'ed it exactly once. At a Porsche club event. And I won, so I'm quitting. JK. BTW, they didn't particularly like me beating all their 944's. I didn't AutoX any more after that win because I determined that I needed a clutch. When I finally got the clutch, I wasn't in a good position to AutoX. I was in the middle of a job and location change, and I was living in an apartment. And since then, Fieros have become uncompetitive.

Here's what I've learned about AutoX'ing. It's a lot of fun. If you want to just go out and have fun, it can be pretty cheap, but don't expect to win. If you want to win, it can be VERY expensive*.

To win, you need:
- THE car that's dominant in its class. There's typically one, maybe two.
- AutoX tires (as wide as you can fit under your wheel wells)
- Wheels to go with those wide tires (as light as you can find for your car)
- An AutoX specific alignment. (typically maximize neg camber on all corners, and tow the front out a little)
- Tire pressures optimized for your car & driving style (takes trial & error).
- Adjustable shocks and/or struts.
- Fresh suspension and steering components.
- More skill than the current driver who's winning. Yes, you may beat other drivers in faster cars, but if they suck that badly, have you really accomplished anything?

You will not win in a Fiero, unless the class just has no serious competition. And then, at least to me, a win wouldn't be all that rewarding. Also, as you can see, a car optimized for AutoX'ing will not be suitable for much of anything else. AutoX tires wear VERY quickly, so they're typically installed & removed at the events. Even when the AutoX tires aren't on, your street tires are subject to the abnormal alignment, which drastically increases wear, and makes the car twitchy in daily driving. At the national level, these cars (even stock class) are typically trailer queens. They never see any street miles.

I don't have any specific plans to AutoX again, but if one popped up nearby, I might go. But... I'd drive the car there, pay my money, thrash the car around the course a few times, walk around and look at all the other pretty cars, and go home. No fancy shocks, alignments, tires, tire pressures, etc. This is what I advise people to do if they want to AutoX. This approach also has the advantage of allowing you to learn the handling characteristics your car typically exhibits in your daily driving. A car set up for AutoX'ing handles very differently from stock. I think that this was the original intent of the sport anyway.

*As an engineer, I have a problem where I have to analyze everything, so back in 1995 (when I got my Formula) I calculated how expensive AutoX'ing was. I calculated that each 45-60 second run would cost around $30. So, a 3 run event would cost around $90. Most of that was tires, which have only gotten stickier (faster wear) and more expensive. At the time, you could expect to pay about $500 for a set of tires to last one season. Too expensive for my taste.

Good luck with whatever you do, and remember to have fun.
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post05-13-2010 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jarhead 2m4:

Get out of ES! As long as there is a '93 MR2 you will not be competitive.


 
quote
Originally posted by Blueiii:
And your suggestion is?

CSP - still same problem
SM2 - MUCH bigger problems


You're thinking in the wrong direction... put a 4 cylinder in your car.

Check out the classification for 2.5 liter Fieros!
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Report this Post05-14-2010 08:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OpFlashClick Here to Email OpFlashSend a Private Message to OpFlashDirect Link to This Post
Some great advice here. I used to autox a fair amount, always rear wheel drive cars, mosly V8 muscle cars but also 240Z, 300zx, RX-7, etc. As far as driving an auto I would launch in 1st, manually shift to 2nd and leave it there. That will prevent it from ever trying to go to 3rd and keep it from hunting for a gear. You can improve your performance a little with two foot driving. Maintain a little gas even while braking to keep your rpms up for quicker throttle response out of corners.

I've never participated in an autocross where size of brakes made any difference. A well balanced system with good pedal modulation is advantageous, but bigger more powerful brakes only prevent fading (besides bumping you out of stock class), and all the autoxs I've been to have been not much more than a minute and sometimes less and not high enough speeds to induce enough heat in that short of time to make fading an issue.

Remember to look a gate or two ahead, not at the one you are currently negotiating.

[This message has been edited by OpFlash (edited 05-14-2010).]

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Primaris
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Report this Post05-14-2010 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PrimarisClick Here to visit Primaris's HomePageSend a Private Message to PrimarisDirect Link to This Post
Are you just starting to Autocross? For the love of all things automotive, stop messing with the car. A person new to autocross should only be allowed to freshen up the worn out parts!

Ok here is my serious advice to someone new: First do you play golf? Yes, well do you think you can beat Tiger Woods? No. OK. So what makes you think you will win at an autocross? I know we all think we are the GOD of driving. Here is the truth. You are slow because of the "nut" behind the wheel, not because of the car. What you need to do FIRST AND FOREMOST IS HAVE FUN!!! Don't worry about your times for the first few events. Just try to learn how to walk the course and then drive it without DNFing. After a few events start paying attention to your times. Try to improve from your first run to your last run. Don't hope to be faster every run but just try to get a trend that shows improvement. Asks the fast guys questions. Ask the fast guys for rides. Ask the fast guys to ride with you and give you advice. Remember though not all people are good instructors. If you know autocross is something you really want to do get out to an autocross school. I use to recommend "evolution performance school" but I have not heard of them running a school in awhile. Still while doing all this remember to have fun. Stay on street tires for at least twenty or so events. R-compound tires cover up too many mistakes that a novice needs to learn about. Once you have a bunch of events under your belt and are having your runs from the start of the day to the end of the day be with in about three seconds then you can start running on R-compounds. Then once you get your run times on R-compounds to within about a second from the start of the day till the last run you can start to make changes to the car. My reasoning behind not recommending you make any changes to the car are because 90% of the modifications people do to their cars are wrong and put them into a class they don't want to be in.

On to the free driving advice....
Walk the course. Walk the course. Walk the course again.
Seat position. You need to be up on the wheel. Arms bent less than 90* and more than 45*. Use both hands on the wheel.
Don't bother down shifting. Start in first, sift to 2nd and stay there.
Learn to look ahead. Way, way, way ahead. You need to be looking at the exit of the turn when you are entering the turn.
Don't try to make slow turns fast. Be smooth and just get through the slow stuff.

Work:
Almost all autocross events are all volunteer events. So do your part. Try to help setup, work when it is your turn, and help tear down.

Links:
http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/faq/
http://sccawiregrass.org/RaceInfo.html
If you don't like to read at least read this: http://www.odr-scca.org/content/view/18/1/
www.scca.com

Me tooting my own horn, LOL:
http://img251.imageshack.us...1/1126/dsci0020x.jpg I had a good day

Lastly:
Have Fun!
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americasfuture2k
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Report this Post05-14-2010 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for americasfuture2kSend a Private Message to americasfuture2kDirect Link to This Post
i cant figure out exactly what catagory my fiero would fit in for scca. it had a slightly modded LX9. but that blew at the tuner shop. stupid lifter bolt. so now im gonna drop in a stock L67. i have the intrax springs with kyb shocks rollin on 17s and the cradle is solid mounted.

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

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Primaris
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Report this Post05-14-2010 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PrimarisClick Here to visit Primaris's HomePageSend a Private Message to PrimarisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

i cant figure out exactly what catagory my fiero would fit in for scca. it had a slightly modded LX9. but that blew at the tuner shop. stupid lifter bolt. so now im gonna drop in a stock L67. i have the intrax springs with kyb shocks rollin on 17s and the cradle is solid mounted.



Either engine:
Your car is in the Street Modified Category: Super Street Modified (SSM) Class
Rules: http://www.scca.com/documen..._scca_solo_rules.pdf

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My Car Site www.flexyourrights.com
Just say NO!! to Automatic Transmissions!!
DRAG RACING - So easy a Caveman can do it!

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blackrams
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Report this Post05-15-2010 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
Interesting responses. Personally, being competitive and enjoying a fun time is why most folks auto X but, being committed enough to make it to a national competitive level is a whole new level. I really enjoy running my cars through the courses. Depending on who sets up the course, normally determined by the sponsor and or club members, the course will favor a certain type of car. The Corvette guys down in Bowling Green, KY have a totally different type of course than the club in Lexington set up for Miata types. I have fun on all of them. There is nothing wrong with going stock. But, being a Tool Time/Tim Taylor fan, I always want more power and more braking capability.

I think better braking is very important but, to each their own. That's why they call it racing.

Ron
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Primaris
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Report this Post05-15-2010 11:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PrimarisClick Here to visit Primaris's HomePageSend a Private Message to PrimarisDirect Link to This Post
Great info about brakes: http://teamscr.com/motorspo...n-plain-english.html

More tech articles from the same author: http://teamscr.com/motorsports/tech-articles.html

------------------
My Car Site www.flexyourrights.com
Just say NO!! to Automatic Transmissions!!
DRAG RACING - So easy a Caveman can do it!

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Primaris
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Report this Post05-17-2010 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PrimarisClick Here to visit Primaris's HomePageSend a Private Message to PrimarisDirect Link to This Post
No comments on that picture I posted?
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