I'm a highschool student with very little cash money. I've decided on a 4.9, because of the power, and because its a V8. I love the 3800SC, but that's too difficult of a swap. What I want to know, is how fast you can do a 4.9 swap, quickly and without mods, on a shoestring budget. Just in n' out (Like...the burger place). Details of the shoestring budget would be handy dandy.
Note: Is it naive to assume that my mechanic buddy (who works on those skylift things that fix telephone wires and stuff) and I, can pull this off without [always obscenely expensive] professional assistance?
Originally posted by Fiero1K: Note: Is it naive to assume that my mechanic buddy (who works on those skylift things that fix telephone wires and stuff) and I, can pull this off without [always obscenely expensive] professional assistance?
Yes it is. No engine swap is easy. While the 4.9 is one of the easyer swaps it still has its tough spots. the easyist swap is the 3.4 block out of a 95-95 camaro or firebird. its a direct bolt up and you can use the heads and intake setup off your fiero. only modd you have to do is the starter relocation.
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10:09 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Actually, a 3800SC may be just as easy. So many people have done them, just about any problem you might run into has been solved. You can buy mounts from people on the forum, as well as a premade wiring harness, etc. If difficulty was your main driving factor, I'd seriously consider a 3800SC.
Also, define just how long your "shoestring" is. You have to have a realistic budget. You won't get any engine swap done thinking you can throw $20 at it ever few weeks. The last thing you want to do is get your car torn apart and realize you can't afford to finish it for months.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-17-2009).]
Thought so. I do like the 3.4 swap (60* V6's have that nice sound). Since I don't really know anything , maybe that would be a better way to go. edit: Shoestring is about a grand. I spend 20 bucks on food every few weeks, I expect to spend significantly more on my pride and joy. I just look at WCF's page for stuff you'll need for a 3800 swap and cringe a bit. double edit for slight ADD'ness: Whoa, Formula88...your last 3 digits of your post count are "666." I am slightly more hesitant to believe what you have just said ------------------ 1988 Metallic Red Pontiac Fiero CJB T-Top Coupe, # 784 of 1252 Modifications: -"Custom" oxidized paint -Cat delete -Shiny freebie shift knob -Gasoline -Nice 15" Jetta 5-Spokes IT'S RARE!!!!
[This message has been edited by Fiero1K (edited 12-17-2009).]
Thought so. I do like the 3.4 swap (60* V6's have that nice sound). Since I don't really know anything , maybe that would be a better way to go. edit: Shoestring is about a grand. I spend 20 bucks on food every few weeks, I expect to spend significantly more on my pride and joy. I just look at WCF's page for stuff you'll need for a 3800 swap and cringe a bit. double edit for slight ADD'ness: Whoa, Formula88...your last 3 digits of your post count are "666." I am slightly more hesitant to believe what you have just said
A 3.4 would be a good weekend swapper (provided you had all the tools and parts). you only gain 20-25 HP but you get a stronger block. I work with a guy who has a 94 firebird with 240K on the original motor. its no 3.8 SC but if your on a budget than it would be a decent HP upgrade.
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10:43 PM
Cheever3000 Member
Posts: 12400 From: The Man from Tallahassee Registered: Aug 2001
Are you talking about your 88 CJB T-top? Just give it to the Fiero Factory, and hand your credit card to Jeremy. If you have to ask "how much", well...
Originally posted by pontiackid86: A 3.4 would be a good weekend swapper (provided you had all the tools and parts). you only gain 20-25 HP but you get a stronger block. I work with a guy who has a 94 firebird with 240K on the original motor. its no 3.8 SC but if your on a budget than it would be a decent HP upgrade.
20-25 hp? According to his sig, he has an iron duke.
How about 100 hp?
If he has a duke and want to go for the "classic 3.4 pushrod swap", he would still need to source the shitty Fiero V6 accessories (intake manifold, distributor, water pump) from somewhere, so he might as well straight to the 3.4 DOHC.
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12:39 AM
Fieroking Member
Posts: 2150 From: Coeur D Alene Idaho USA Registered: Jun 2002
Having done a couple of 4.9 swaps, I will impart my four cents of wisdom. NO engine swap is easy and / or cheap unless somebody gives you the parts and does the work for you for free. How inexpensively you can do any given swap is directly proportionate to your own skill level. The more you can do yourself, the less expensive it will be. The more you have to farm out, the higher the cost. Here are some questions to ask concerning swaps and such that will help you avoid pitfalls.....
Do you have an enclosed, spacious, and heated place to work? Laying outside in the Michigan cold sucks.....and you will tire of it quickly. Not to mention the weather stalling out the project. Do you have adequate tools and equipment? Good tools aren't cheap and cheap tools aren't good (or safe). Can you weld, or do you know someone who will do it for you? Do you have extra funds for when (not if) the project takes a turn south and something breaks or needs fixing? This WILL happen. Do you know someone with plenty of experience willing to give you advice and stop by and help when thing don't work out?
Food for thought before you take the plunge.
As swaps go, the 4.9 is one of the less challenging ones, but even then, there are likely to be hurdles you have to overcome and bugs to be worked out if it is to run correctly. If it is done right, the car should perform reliably like the factory built it that way. Any less, and you won't be satisfied with it....and it will be breaking constantly.
Please don't think I'm trying to talk you out of it.....V8 Fieros are a load of fun. But I'm inferring from your post that funds and skills are limited....and like was posted above, that can lead to a half finished project that winds up being sold down the road for pennies on the dollar. By the time I sourced a low mile drivetrain, the wiring harness, axles, mounts, and an exhaust system, I was in $2800 before I ever turned a wrench. Granted, it can be done cheaper, but I wanted two things...1). Bulletproof reliability 2.) The car back on the road in 6 weeks just working on weekends. I'm chronically short on time, and in my case, it was easier to buy a prebuilt harness for example. And I've been wrenching and swapping motors for better than 30 years now.....No mysteries left....and even I hit a couple of snags where I had to ask for help on here.
My advice in your situation? One of two things.
1. Find someone to help that has done a few swaps, preferably Fiero swaps. Their experience is worth it's weight in gold. Yes, the fine folks here can and will give you all the help we can....but there is no substitute sometimes for someone with Know-How standing next to you.
2. Change titles. Sell what you have a buy a swapped car. The economy is bad right now, and folks are unloading nice swapped good running cars left and right. This will also probably be cheaper than doing yours. Yes, it's cheaper to buy one than build one in many cases.
I am going to disagree on the pre-swapped car. Sometimes those are a bigger headache. If you don't know what to look for at purchase time, you can end up with a bigger headache trying to fix all the problems with the previous swap (been there, done that). If you swap it yourself, or pay a professional, it will be done right.
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07:04 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
The 3800 swap would be a bit quicker and easier, mostly due to exhaust.
One of the most overlooked things on a swap (you know this after you do a few of them), and honestly it could become one of the biggest time investments of a swap. The rest of the mounting, wiring, is going to be the same no matter if you are putting a 4.9, a 3800, or a lambo V12 in (ok, maybe a bit more on a V12 but you get the idea).
The deal with the 3800 is, there is PLENTY of dirty quick and easy swaps out there to know what can be done quick and easy, and still have the power/reliability.
I threw that "cheap, fast, reliable" bulljunk out the window years ago. Fieros (3800 fieros anyway) are a very blatant exception to the rule.
And if you get moving fast enough on this project, I will be in town for business the last week of February, and the first week of March. I also have alot of 3800SC related swap parts, such as exhaust, mounts, and most of the raw wiring bits.
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08:57 AM
PFF
System Bot
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7573 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
If you are paying someone to do it, not going to happen for $1000...
As mentioned, depends on your ability to do things yourself - you may be able to get all the parts (less wiring harness and exhaust) for the 4.9 for around $1000 (depends on the cost of the motor), but, realisticly I wouldn't count on it.
Time needed >> again depends on your ability and tools. With all the parts collected, I can do one by myself in a weekend - BUT I have done them before and this does NOT include building the wiring harness. Just the engine in the bay (add another full day or 2 for the harness done my way of reworking the harness, which is more time consuming than just sticking it in). **IF you have all the parts, and if you have all the tools and a decent mechanical ability - I would say that if you worked on it at a good pace and having not done one yourself expect 2-4 weeks to get this done. You should also have extra cash one hand for things that pop up unexpectedly.
IMHO - if you want to do an engine swap, you have to be prepared that you could spend much more on it than anticipated. You still try to work within a budget and you may come out ahead, but if you have limited funds I wouldn't really suggest you do not do this unless time is not a factor. Although if the swap takes too long I see people giving up on them as well.
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 12-18-2009).]
Originally posted by pontiackid86: the easyist swap is the 3.4 block out of a 95-95 camaro or firebird.
To clarify matters, Fiero1K, pontiackid86 should have said "93-95" --- not "95-95."
Another source for that swap is a pushrod 3.4L crate engine. However, obtaining any crate engine (3.4L or not) likely will use up your entire $1000 budget (and then some) right there.
More generally, for your purposes, regardless of what engine swap you choose, I'd say that realistically, it's unfortunately...
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: ...not going to happen for $1000...
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02:19 PM
josef644 Member
Posts: 6939 From: Dickinson, Texas USA Registered: Nov 2006
Here is a good estimate of what I have spent so far. I am not thtrew yet either. Chewap and 'Swap' do not belong in the same sentance. And my swap thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/077299-7.html
87-88 4 cyl throttle cable $30.00 1991 Deville $400.00 Bead Blast Valve covers $20.00 car $450.00 Fuel $385.00 Eats $200.00 Water pump inlet $ 55.00 Bracket $ 25.00 Muffler $100.00 Cat Convert $ 65.00 VATS bypass $ 31.00 Fuel Pump $ 80.00 Fuel Hoses $ 25.00 CV shaft $ 55.00 Belt Tensioner $ 18.00 Belt idler $ 12.00 Welding $ 50.00 TBI spacer $20.00 Shift cable adjustable $30.00 Shift cable plain $25.00 Shifter & asst parts $40.00 PCV gromet $23.00 Tach Mod Parts $ 8.00 Dist wir connectr's $12.00 Pop rivetts $ 6.00 Brake peddle cvr $4.00 Dist cap $12.00 Batt support $30.00 CV boot $16.00 McMaster Carr $13.00 2 Fiero transmission mounts $20.00 2 Buick transmission mount brackets $15.00 2 Summitt mtr mts $30.00 1 Vibe radio $26.00 Injector serviceing kit $24.00 Ultrasonic cleaner machine $31.00 Timeing cover gasket set $20.00 Coolant filler neck $38.00 Water inlet welding $15.00
There is no way in **** I could pay somebody to work on my car. It's a good idea if you have money, but I enjoy working on cars, especially mine. To clarify: the mechanic friend of mine can weld, and had training as a professional auto mechanic very recently, and can do wiring (he almost went into auto but did skylifts instead). I can use my 2 car garage for paint and the swap. I wouldn't do a 3.4 DOHC because of reliability issues. I like the 3800SC and love its aftermarket, and its milage. I was just under the impression that the 4.9 swap would be quite a bit easier, and cheaper, than the 3800SC. Is there any way to make the 3800SC sound good? And thank you for the tip about exhaust....didn't even think about it.
Also...to continue with my ramble, I have a duke. This would make a 3.4 swap more of a PITA, wouldn't it? Because then I would be better off just trading my T-top for a GT or SE. Which is something I don't want to do (T-tops are my favorite thing ever).
Originally posted by Fiero1K: Also...to continue with my ramble, I have a duke. This would make a 3.4 swap more of a PITA, wouldn't it? Because then I would be better off just trading my T-top for a GT or SE. Which is something I don't want to do (T-tops are my favorite thing ever).
Well your screwed as far as a 3.4 swap there than. Its not worth rewiring the whole car for an extra 20HP i thought you had a 2.8
Originally posted by Fiero1K: I have a duke. This would make a 3.4 swap more of a PITA, wouldn't it?
Yes.
quote
Originally posted by Fiero1K: Because then I would be better off just trading my T-top for a GT or SE. Which is something I don't want to do (T-tops are my favorite thing ever).
Because you stated that "T-tops are my favorite thing ever," be aware that Coupes weren't the only `88s with T-tops. In fact, there actually were over 2-1/2 times more `88 GTs and Formulas (all V6s) with factory T-tops (a total of 913), than there were `88 T-top Coupes (339, all Dukes).
Because you stated that "T-tops are my favorite thing ever," be aware that Coupes weren't the only `88s with T-tops. In fact, there actually were over 2-1/2 times more `88 GTs and Formulas (all V6s) with factory T-tops (a total of 913), than there were `88 T-top Coupes (339, all Dukes).
Wait.....that makes me more rare . Maybe I could put that in my sig. Since the 3800 is looking less difficult, I may want to tackle this swap instead. Maybe I should have titled this "What engine swap should I do?" I still like the 4.9, but the more I think about it, the less practical it sounds. Also, as a side note, I will stick to a manual transmission. Forever. So any concerns about auto are thrown violently out the window (and set on fire by a 1984 Fiero, all of which, according to the general public, are on fire).
If I sound incoherent, thank my lack of sleep, caused by physics homework done late into the night. And the Sims 3
edit: I know that there were GT and Formula T-Tops made. Wanna trade me a CJB '88 GT for my rusty little coupe? Hehe JK.
Since the 3800 is looking less difficult, I may want to tackle this swap instead. Maybe I should have titled this "What engine swap should I do?"
This question has been asked about a billion times and the truth is once you get away from a pushrod 60 deg V6, they are all about the same difficulty. Some people are going to advocate their favorite swap and say it's the best, but the truth is they all have the same thing...Clutch, axles, wiring, fuel, exhaust, mounts, etc.
I suggest you pick the engine you like and go with it.
This question has been asked about a billion times and the truth is once you get away from a pushrod 60 deg V6, they are all about the same difficulty. Some people are going to advocate their favorite swap and say it's the best, but the truth is they all have the same thing...Clutch, axles, wiring, fuel, exhaust, mounts, etc.
I suggest you pick the engine you like and go with it.
Though... the 4.9 is pretty much rock-solid reliability wise. That, and the stock Fiero tranny can -nearly- handle the power levels.
Seeing how you have a duke now an easier way may be to buy a Fiero V6 complete from sone one doing an engine swap and just go that route. The Fiero V 6 engine may not be all that power full but it is a lot more then the duke. I have thrown quite a few low mileage running V 6 Fiero engines out over the years due to lack of space and sold a few for as low ,as $50 for the owners when doing engine swaps so you might be better off going that route to make things faster, cheaper and easier. Dan
Thanks everyone for your help and information. But...does anyone know the answer to my original question? That is, the cheapest and least time consuming 4.9 swap that still retains reliability?
Edit: I put together a quick list of est. costs for a 4.9 swap. Nixed auto stuff, added clutch, nixed your unexpected costs and added an estimate of mine. Here it is.
Flywheel (Beretta 88-92) $50.00 Autozone Machining to mate the flywheel to the 4.9 $190.00 9.75 inch HD Clutch from the Fiero Store 289.00 ECM Reprogramming $80.00 Front engine mounts GM Trans mounts Poly $35.99 each Autozone
Other thing you need to address Exhaust system (for a manual trans Fiero you need to move the cross over pipe or run an Eldorado down and under system)
And the list goes on. There area lot of little things that end up drive your estimate Skyward
Not trying to burst your bubble.
Joe Sokol
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
With little cash money, any car work is tough. I've been there, done that (still don't have much money spare even with a 4yr degree, ha!)
Is this your only car, or a second car? Expect the swap to take longer than expected, even when you already expect it to take a long time. I'd say that if this is a spare car then go for it, but don't be surprised if it is a long time before it is back on the road. It was quite some time before I got my Camaro on the road after buying it because financial problems (college student) kept delaying it. Then unexpected expenses delayed it more. Fortunately it wasn't my only car, so this was OK.
------------------ '88 Formula. 2800/automatic. Finally on the road!
The rest of the garage: '92 LeBaron sedan: 3.0V6/5sp '77 Camaro: 350/4sp '71 Fiat Spider: 1800/5sp '71 Mercedes 220D: 2.2L/4sp '70 DeVille: 472ci/TH400 '62 DeVille: 390ci/Hydramatic Jetaway
It is my first and only car. It can be off the road for a month or so during the summer, as I have a moped to get to and from my house/work. The suggestion of a fiero v6 is not a bad one, but from what ive searched, the factory v6 gets almost as bad milage as the 4.9, but for a ton less power. If I could score a complete one with harness (and ECM? Dont know if theyre the same.), I might consider it.
I vote stock V6 or keep it stock for now and save your money. Any kind of car project (not just Fieros!) have a way of going over time and over budget no matter how much you plan. You will find something unexpected during disassembly, things won't go back together right, whatever.
The V6 moves well but gets worse mileage than the 4. It won't be the fastest car on the block, but it will still get a high school student in plenty of trouble (my V6 LeBaron did and it is about as fast as the Fiero)
I can see this too easily going badly where you have the car apart and either run out of time or money and end up being forced into selling the car (at a loss, for sure). If you go ahead with the swap, get every conceivable part you will need *first* and have a cash buffer on top of that for the things you didn't think of. Do you have all the tools you will need? Tools have been one of the leading expenses in my leaning to work on cars. Also, a "month or so" doesn't sound like alot of time to do a first engine swap while also going to work.
Honestly, I am not saying don't do this, but it is a risk taking your only car off the road. I can say from experience that you will have a lot to learn unless you have been wrenching on cars for some time. When I was learning, I always made sure I had a reliable alternate car to drive and I can't say how great that was because there are times when you are just staring at your project and realize that you don't have the stuff you need and the only thing you can do is go inside and get back to it in a few days when you have another part/tool/helper. Without a spare car, you will at some point find yourself at the mercy of other peoples schedules if you need something that won't fit on the moped.
Where do your parents stand in all this? Does your Dad (or Mom) know how to wrench on cars? That kind of help is invaluable.
Originally posted by FIEROFLYER: Seeing how you have a duke now an easier way may be to buy a Fiero V6 complete from sone one doing an engine swap and just go that route....I have thrown quite a few low mileage running V 6 Fiero engines out over the years due to lack of space and sold a few for as low ,as $50 for the owners when doing engine swaps so you might be better off going that route to make things faster, cheaper and easier. Dan
FIEROFLYER's is an interesting suggestion: Get a Fiero 2.8L V6 from someone who has just done an engine swap. However, I recommend not getting a Fiero 2.8L from someone who has just completed a pushrod 3.4L engine swap.
Why?
Unlike people who've executed other engine swaps, those who have finished a 3.4L swap often reuse on their 3.4L engine many of the parts that came with the Fiero 2.8L --- including the valve covers, the lower, middle, and upper intake manifold sections, the distributor, the timing cover, the wiring harness, the ECU, the water pump (because the 3.4L's water pump flows "backwards"), and so on.
Thus, someone who has replaced his Fiero 2.8L V6 with a 3.4L engine swap may not leave very much from his 2.8L unused (aside from internals like the crank, rods, and pistons),
However, those who are switching out a Fiero 2.8L for a different engine swap (e.g., a 4.9L or a 3800SC) basically can't reuse on such a swap, the external Fiero 2.8L parts I had mentioned. Accordingly, everything else being equal, the Fiero 2.8L of someone completing other than a 3.4L swap should be a far more usable Fiero 2.8L for your purposes than that of someone who has just completed a pushrod 3.4L engine swap.
Given your limited funds and the "my-only-car" situation you're facing, I recommend giving further consideration to FIEROFLYER's suggestion, or to what BluEyes just mentioned:
quote
Originally posted by BluEyes: I vote stock V6 or keep it stock for now and save your money.
However, if you go with a stock Fiero V6, I still suggest getting one from someone who essentially has no use for any its parts --- not from someone who has just completed a pushrod 3.4L engine swap.
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03:10 PM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
well im a 3800 fan i say either go with a 3.8 NA or Supercharged NA is a cheaper motor but still a big up in HP, buy the swap mounts maybe 300 im not sure i think i saw the in the mall for that once or twice same goes with a wireing harness maybe 400 and stick with a manual trans witch im hoping is in your car. lol either that of as they said go with the 3.4 and down the line throw a turbo in it
My dad and grandfather both have good experience with cars, and we have lots of tools. My mechanic friend could help with welding, wiring, and issues that would otherwise be baffling. I could stretch time to a two months or more. Losing the duke is worth having to ride a moped to school. Work can only legally schedule my 36 hours a week max anyways. Your posts have shown that the 4.9 and 3800 SC are comparable in cost (which, after searching & research, I did not think was the case). Price was a deciding factor in my idea of doing the 4.9. Also, because of exhaust concerns, including the fact that I need a full trunk for my T-Tops (which I wont keep behind the seats), as well as milage concerns, I think I will be going the 3800 SC route. Also, I found an incredible wiring chart/guide for the 3800, which even I could follow. I'll use my moped for transportation during the swap, and start saving now. I live right next to a reputable scrapyard, so reasonably priced parts aren't an issue. I'll post up a thread when I'm done, referring to the wealth of 3800 swap threads on this forum to help my through. It'll be bare-bones at first (but neat-looking), but some performance & cosmetic mods will certainly follow. I see 3800 swap parts on the mall for great prices all the time. Consider my question answered (sort of). Thank you all for your help.
Flywheel (Beretta 88-92) $50.00 Autozone Machining to mate the flywheel to the 4.9 $190.00 9.75 inch HD Clutch from the Fiero Store 289.00
Just curious. If you opt to go with a auto trans usually hooked to these motors and ditch the Fiero stick, what would be the cost comparison for the axles and shifter?
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 12-20-2009).]
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10:15 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Frizlefrak: Correct. My 4.9 still has the trunk. Any good exhaust shop can build you the system you need.
What he said.
Sounds like you are first going to have to decide on what your ultimate goal is to be with the car.
If you are looking for speed the 3800SC would be the better choice, if you are just looking for a fun car to drive, then the 4.9 might be what you are looking for. The 4.9 is only a mid 14 sec car, PBJ did get one down into the 12 sec range, but that was after alot of mods and adding a turbo. The 4.9 also has a sucky "red line" max power works out at around 4300 rpms vs. the 3800SC will make power at higher revs.
Both swaps would probably cost you about the same and are probably close to the same amount of work. I went with the 4.9 for the main reason that is was a far cheaper motor at the time. My 4.9 was $1500 vs the 3800SC which scrap yards were asking $4000. 5 years later and the prices have dropped considerably on both of these. Don't get me wrong I like the 4.9, but at times I would also like it if it made power at a bit higher revs.
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10:19 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
The 3800 offers MANY MANY more advantages over a 3.4/2.8 other than horsepower. Non exploding ICM's, 10+ more MPG, etc... For a daily driver it pays for itself in maintenance and MPG advantages. No distributors to mess with, no 20 year old bolts to unstick (exhaust manifolds/y pipe comes to mind), no mess of vac lines and a NEVER functioning EGR system that costs $200+ to mess with.
Darkhorizon: agreed. Not wanting another engine older than me in the car. I would rather not swap than do a 2.8, because, if you're going to all the effort to do a swap, you might as well go balls to the wall.
Originally posted by Fiero1K: Not wanting another engine older than me in the car. I would rather not swap than do a 2.8, because, if you're going to all the effort to do a swap, you might as well go balls to the wall.
Good luck to you, and please keep us posted re same.
, maybe that would be a better way to go.
