quote Originally posted by jscott1: What's this about a large spacer and longgg bolts? Are you telling me that I have longggg bolts and a spacer?

Spacer:



Spacer installed:



Sure it works but......

what the hell did you use that with a flex plate or a standard fly wheel and how much further back is needed 1/2 inch 1 inch more than a getrag

quote Originally posted by engine man: what the hell did you use that with a flex plate or a standard fly wheel and how much further back is needed 1/2 inch 1 inch more than a getrag

I didn't use any of this--These are pictures from a guy that installed a 6 speed in a Grand Am using that V-8 guy's kit. The GA guy could have used another method that would not have used that large spacer/longer bolts but I guess he did not do his homework first before starting the swap. Atleast the G6 is in a Grand Am so he will not hav to worry about the longer bolts failing from to much power. That spacer is used with a flywheel---I know--What they #^@!?

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I didn't use any of this--These are pictures from a guy that installed a 6 speed in a Grand Am using that V-8 guy's kit. The GA guy could have used another method that would not have used that large spacer/longer bolts but I guess he did not do his homework first before starting the swap. Atleast the G6 is in a Grand Am so he will not hav to worry about the longer bolts failing from to much power. That spacer is used with a flywheel---I know--What they #^@!?

To me it looks like the spacer is used to compensate for the space of "that" V8 adaptor kit - but you know what, the spacer is NOT needed when installing a motor that doesn't need and adaptor plate. (ie. 3800, 4.9, etc).

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: To me it looks like the spacer is used to compensate for the space of "that" V8 adaptor kit - but you know what, the spacer is NOT needed when installing a motor that doesn't need and adaptor plate. (ie. 3800, 4.9, etc).

I didn't see my motor and transmission mated, but I have a hard time believing that big spacer is in there somewhere.

quote Originally posted by sspeedstreet: Can someone tell me what this "slave plug" is? ~Neil

I just sent you a PM also it is the plug for the Grand Am, snaps into the F40 and you can screw the Fiero line into it. I will get you the part number when I can dig it out. I was working with the Driveshaft Shop to see if they will machine the Cobalt SS axel to fit the Fiero. Then, I can get everyone a part number for Axels and buy them direct from them. They make 400HP ones for the Cobalt guys and gals so if I work with them they should be able to help. I'm sorry guys maybe gals?? Wish I could help more at this time but I still have to sell my house in Glen Rose and I am in the process of getting set up here in South Texas.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Yeah the price is way out in left field for something that really only cost about $800 to do total. You can get a flywheel/clutch set from SPEC that is a deirect bolt on for the 3800/6 speed. That leaves the axles which was talked about up a few post then also info from the other two that have done it. The shifter is a 4 speed shifter that is re-worked then uses 2 select cables(from what I remember) for the cables. The mounts area just some one off pieces that can be made from flat steel. Also going this route does not have you using a rather large spacer between the clutch/flywheel that is just asking for failure.

You obviously have no experience actually doing one of these swaps & are talking out the top of your hat. so what else is new?

To do an F40 swap the following issues have to be addressed:

You'll need a transmission
Intermediate shaft
Intermediate shaft bearing mount
Left & Right inboard Tri-pots
Left & Right axles shafts to the correct lengths & with the needed splines for the above Tri-pots & the Fiero C/V joints
You'll need a SPEC Clutch
Yes, you'll need a Friction plate for that clutch wether it has an adapter plate or not
You'll have to have Transmission mounts
You'll need a bracket for mounting the shift cables to the transmission
Hyd. line adapter
An interface to make the 64000 PPM from the F40 trans work with the Fiero speedo
Shifter

The best deal on a Transmission is from EBay for about $400 & SPEC gets almost $400.00 for any clutch it sells.

Considering that, & since you seem to know everything, maybe you should enlighten everybody as to how you're going to do it for $800.00 total.

Or is it just talk?

Archie

edit to add...... I forgot, you'll also need a flywheel that's the right thickness if it's going to fit to a Gnat's azz.

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-26-2009).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I didn't see my motor and transmission mated, but I have a hard time believing that big spacer is in there somewhere.

Kind of like finding out your house was built over a garbage dump. With the 4.9 you could use the Firebird, Camaro 3.4 Flywheel. From what I know he bolts that thing on all engine swaps.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: To me it looks like the spacer is used to compensate for the space of "that" V8 adaptor kit - but you know what, the spacer is NOT needed when installing a motor that doesn't need and adaptor plate. (ie. 3800, 4.9, etc).

The spacer is not for compensating the adapter thickness alone. On an engine with the correct bell houseing pattern (2.8, 4.9, northstar) the clutch friction surface needs to be moved deeper into the transmission by 1.0" for the clutch to properly engage on the input shaft splines and for the HTOB to work with the pressure plate. As for "long bolt" argument, it's not an issue. The longer bolts actually provide a more uniform clamping force and will shear under the same load as short ones.

Edit: Pic to show the adapter thickness on a standard flywheel for a 2.8 (or northstar in this case)

[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 10-26-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: .... The best deal on a Transmission is from EBay for about $400 & SPEC gets almost $400.00 for any clutch it sells. Considering that, & since you seem to know everything, maybe you should enlighten everybody as to how you're going to do it for $800.00 total. Or is it just talk? Archie edit to add...... I forgot, you'll also need a flywheel that's the right thickness if it's going to fit to a Gnat's azz.

LOL! Just let him learn that ignorance can be very expensive

quote Originally posted by Zac88GT: The spacer is not for compensating the adapter thickness alone. On an engine with the correct bell houseing pattern (2.8, 4.9, northstar) the clutch friction surface needs to be moved deeper into the transmission by 1.0" for the clutch to properly engage on the input shaft splines and for the HTOB to work with the pressure plate.

I honestly didn't know what it took to make it all work is why I left it to the professionals...

but how else would you make it work without the spacer? Is the Camaro 3.4 flyweel thick enough to use by itself?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I honestly didn't know what it took to make it all work is why I left it to the professionals...

Then you left it to the right guys then. I've got 35 completed 6 speed cars running around the country already. The Texas 2 steppers haven't built one yet.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: but how else would you make it work without the spacer? Is the Camaro 3.4 flyweel thick enough to use by itself?

No it's not.

You can do it if you wanted to design & build a custom F/W for each different engine.

But then you'd very likely break out of that $800 total cost budget that MstangsBware is going to give us the details about.

Archie

I don't get it. What's the difference in rotating mass between a big azz custom flywheel and an aluminum spacer? Either way the 6-speed bellhousing is deeper and requires the clutch to be placed further away from the engine. Or you could really waste your money and have a custom G-6 style dual mass flywheel made. An any case, keep salvaging and you might eventually piece together something that works.

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87 GT Tilt Clip-Widebody-RamAir-Fastback-GlassHatch Powered by SBC 383 6-speed w/ NOS
Build Thread

"Roads?...Where we're going, we don't need roads." - Emmett "Doc" Brown

quote Originally posted by Archie: Then you left it to the right guys then. I've got 35 completed 6 speed cars running around the country already. The Texas 2 steppers haven't built one yet. No it's not. You can do it if you wanted to design & build a custom F/W for each different engine. But then you'd very likely break out of that $800 total cost budget that MstangsBware is going to give us the details about. Archie

Haven't built one yet(6 speed Fiero) but I have built a few Fiero's that are faster than anything you have ever built and of course for alot less(junkyard parts of course). Really not all that intersted in building a 6 speed car being the performance that I have seen out of them have been pretty poor. One that comes to mind is the LS1/6 speed Formula you built that ran a whopping 13.8 in the 1/4. The funny thing is on the same day/track a 5 speed 3800SC that I built from junkyard parts ran a 13.6. Imagine that my junkyard built little V-6 with 145K Getrag beat your 0 mile crate engine LS1 with a new super 6 speed on it. Maybe one day I will learn how to build fast Fieros but till then I will just stick to building junkyard swaps.

Why are quarter mile times so important to some guys? I have more money in my suspension and brakes than my engine because I drive my car on real roads, not down straights all the time. Anyone can build a car that goes fast in a line (and most of the time they don't use Fieros). I would like to see a junkyard built Fiero corner and brake as well as mine. Then again a properly tuned Corvette would smoke us all.
Just build your car the best you can and enjoy it.

[This message has been edited by ClayTonto (edited 10-27-2009).]

quote Originally posted by ClayTonto: Why are quarter mile times so important to some guys? I have more money in my suspension and brakes than my engine because I drive my car on real roads, not down straights all the time. Anyone can build a car that goes fast in a line (and most of the time they don't use Fieros). I would like to see a junkyard built Fiero corner and brake as well as mine. Then again a properly tuned Corvette would smoke us all. Just build your car the best you can and enjoy it.

...because they like to prove thier manhood (or lack there of).

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Haven't built one yet(6 speed Fiero) but I have built a few Fiero's that are faster than anything you have ever built and of course for alot less(junkyard parts of course). Really not all that intersted in building a 6 speed car being the performance that I have seen out of them have been pretty poor. One that comes to mind is the LS1/6 speed Formula you built that ran a whopping 13.8 in the 1/4. The funny thing is on the same day/track a 5 speed 3800SC that I built from junkyard parts ran a 13.6. Imagine that my junkyard built little V-6 with 145K Getrag beat your 0 mile crate engine LS1 with a new super 6 speed on it. Maybe one day I will learn how to build fast Fieros but till then I will just stick to building junkyard swaps.

I'm not familiar with the steps in the Texas 2 Step but if it's got a Side Step in there then you've got it mastered.

So should we assume that you're not going to provide us with that parts list that allows the F40 to be used for a total price of $800.00?

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: You can do it if you wanted to design & build a custom F/W for each different engine. Archie

Okay got. Thanks.

In my opinion the spacer and a standard flywheel is the better design solution. I was just a bit surprised that there that much difference in the clutch placement between the F40 and the regular transverse transmission. Probably because the F40 was based on a Saab design.

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: This was posted by Cowspatoot here : https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/077838.html for those wondering the differences in ratios. code: First Second Third Fourth Fifth Sixth F40 33.3 61.6 95.2 132.3 165.4 202.7 NSX 35.8 56.1 76.9 97.6 120.2 153.2 Getrag 35.3 60.3 89.6 131.5 171.7

You'll have to forgive me, I am not a gear head but...

Just looking at the ratio's for the different transmissions it looks like you would only be comfortable in 6th gear going 90+ MPH. Am I reading it wrong? 5th Gear would be higher revving than 4th for the Getrag making it almost useless for cruising. It just looks like unless you have an insane amount of torque it would be "uncomfortable" like it needs a gear between 5th and 6th.

Any feedback on this? I don't have a 6 speed, just looking at numbers.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: It just looks like unless you have an insane amount of torque it would be "uncomfortable" like it needs a gear between 5th and 6th. Any feedback on this? I don't have a 6 speed, just looking at numbers. Brad

I too had doubts about the 6 speed from looking at the numbers...but after one test drive in a 4.9 powered 6 speed I had a grin from ear to ear.

I can easily cruise in 6th gear at normal legal speeds (65 mph). And at 65 mph in 6th gear I can punch it and you will still be pushed into your seat and the car will squat down and take off. Sometimes I find myself wanting a 7th gear.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I want to do another manuel 3800SC swap and thought about using the 6 speed but that will not be for some time.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Really not all that intersted in building a 6 speed car being the performance that I have seen out of them have been pretty poor.

First you are thinking about using the 6 speed and now you are not - which is it?

You seem to have this hard on for proving a certain individual wrong, one would think you would jump all over this and prove that you can install the 6 speed for the $800 you quoted just to prove that you are the man...now all of a sudden you don't want to do it...

A professional: The word professional traditionally means a person who has obtained a degree in a professional field. The term professional is used more generally to denote a white collar working person In western nations, such as the United States, the term commonly describes highly educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, economic security, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work.
Now that someone showed everyone how a professional does not act like, may we get back to what the thread was meant to be and not a bash everyone that has a solution to share. In the other thread all of the thickness measurement for the flywheel have been covered and yes the Camaro/Firebird flywheel from the 3.4 is the correct thickness, I have measured it myself. This flywheel is dished and is not that heavy. The lighter you keep the flywheel the better your engine will perform and the less stress you have on the crank bearings. We all know that the 3.4 flywheel bolts to the 2.8 and the 2.8 flywheel or the 3.1 flywheel is used to make one for the 4.9. I bought my F40 on EBay for $300.00 if I were to use used parts I might actually be able to put the six speed in for 800 bucks. For sure if I was to settle for angle iron welded to my cradle for motor mounts. I would never do that and my axels will be new so I will blow past that. The 400hp axels are $800.00 alone so that will kill it.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: You'll have to forgive me, I am not a gear head but... Just looking at the ratio's for the different transmissions it looks like you would only be comfortable in 6th gear going 90+ MPH. Am I reading it wrong? 5th Gear would be higher revving than 4th for the Getrag making it almost useless for cruising. It just looks like unless you have an insane amount of torque it would be "uncomfortable" like it needs a gear between 5th and 6th. Any feedback on this? I don't have a 6 speed, just looking at numbers. Brad

I believe you are reading the numbers wrong. The numbers correspond to the SPEED calculated at 6000 RPMs in the particular gear (by CowsPatoot, i believe). The F40 shows 165.4 mph in fifth and the getrag shows 131.5 mph in fourth. This means that at equal speeds (for example cruising speed) in 5th with the F40 will turn the engine at significantly less RPMs than 4th in the getrag, according to the numbers calculated by CowsPatoot. Actually, it appears that fifth of both transmissions are quite similar, where fifth in the F40 is slightly higher revving at speed.

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 10-27-2009).]

The F40 has similar gear ratios as the Getrag plus a 6th gear.
Fiero Transmissions Gear Ratio Comparison
IMO 6th feels great at 55mph or above.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: First you are thinking about using the 6 speed and now you are not - which is it? You seem to have this hard on for proving a certain individual wrong, one would think you would jump all over this and prove that you can install the 6 speed for the $800 you quoted just to prove that you are the man...now all of a sudden you don't want to do it...

Well you know--People change there minds all the time. Guess I changed mine from one night to the other but tonight I think I will go back to swapping in a 6 speed/3800 but then again it might change again tomorrow.


Think it can be done for $800? I mean that is not alot of money these days. Maybe someone can donate some of the parts for the swap?

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: You'll have to forgive me, I am not a gear head but... .. It just looks like unless you have an insane amount of torque it would be "uncomfortable" like it needs a gear between 5th and 6th. Any feedback on this? I don't have a 6 speed, just looking at numbers. Brad

I drive mine in 6th at 45mph all the time.

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Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 4 speed Auto
304rwHP/366rwTQ

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I drive mine in 6th at 45mph all the time.

But then you DO have insane amounts of torque

why not just cut and sleeve the axle to the length you need

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Haven't built one yet(6 speed Fiero) but I have built a few Fiero's that are faster than anything you have ever built and of course for alot less(junkyard parts of course). Really not all that intersted in building a 6 speed car being the performance that I have seen out of them have been pretty poor. One that comes to mind is the LS1/6 speed Formula you built that ran a whopping 13.8 in the 1/4. The funny thing is on the same day/track a 5 speed 3800SC that I built from junkyard parts ran a 13.6. Imagine that my junkyard built little V-6 with 145K Getrag beat your 0 mile crate engine LS1 with a new super 6 speed on it. Maybe one day I will learn how to build fast Fieros but till then I will just stick to building junkyard swaps.

Quarter mile times are as much a function of getting the car launched as anything else, and driver capability factors in heavily with a stick, as in shifting point decisions. 13.6 to 13.8 is pretty much a wash, the differences are as simple as tires, matching suspension to said tires, etc. I can beat a lot of powerful cars out of the hole with my stock 2.8 because I have the ability to lay all out with no wheelspin issue to worry about.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Ok Archie, so will your kit work with a 3800 without modification? I would be willing to buy one if they did. bmwguru told me at one point that you might be willing to fab a kit for the 3800 for his swaps, so I figured your current kit wasn't really for that application. Again, I'm willing to buy one if you do. I'd much rather do a 3800 than a V8 at this point.

Archie, not to disrupt your long time neverending threadcrossing feud or anything, but would you be willing to answer my question please? I'm willing to buy one of your kits if you can tell me whether or not it would need modification to mate a F40 to a 3800. I'm having a local speed shop do the work so I want to make sure it's relatively straight forward. If you feel the effort to answer a question about anything other than a V8 is beneath you just say so, and I will make sure I don't waste your time by offering you money for your products.

If anyone else has a solution they are able to offer for this, please let me know. I wonder how much would have been accomplished if it weren't for the bickering on here. Think of all of the solutions to long existing issues there would be.....

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I wonder how much would have been accomplished if it weren't for the bickering on here. Think of all of the solutions to long existing issues there would be.....

Good question...Can't we all just get along?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Archie, not to disrupt your long time neverending threadcrossing feud or anything, but would you be willing to answer my question please? I'm willing to buy one of your kits if you can tell me whether or not it would need modification to mate a F40 to a 3800. I'm having a local speed shop do the work so I want to make sure it's relatively straight forward. If you feel the effort to answer a question about anything other than a V8 is beneath you just say so, and I will make sure I don't waste your time by offering you money for your products. If anyone else has a solution they are able to offer for this, please let me know. I wonder how much would have been accomplished if it weren't for the bickering on here. Think of all of the solutions to long existing issues there would be.....

I'm sure a phone call to him would be the best way to get a answer.....He even pays for your call. It's pretty easy to miss a post asking a question like this.........

You're wrong to assume that I look down on anyone with anything less than a V-8. I don't do V-6 swaps, but I have a lot of good friends that have them. I'm just not into them.

I've had several people ask if I can help them with the 6 speed in a 6 cylinder swap car. Yes I can, I tell them the same thing I'm about to tell you. I can supply everything you need as long as you have your engine of choice & a strick shift F/W for it. The only part I can't supply for a non stock V-6 in a Fiero is the intermediate shaft bearing mount. I can't supply that part because I haven't personally done a 6 speed with those engines & thus had no engine to design that mount to. However, I've had a few customers with 3800's & other V-6's in FWD cars & 2 in Fieros, that tell me that the intermediate shaft mount that comes with the G6 intermediate shaft is easily modified to bolt right to the 3800. I can't prove that because I haven't done one myself.

I've done 6 speed swaps to 4.9 Fieros & Fieros with the stock V-6, so I have mounts designed for them. Just haven't done a 3800 V-6.

So you would need to supply the F/W & bolt that F/W to the engine & take a measurement for me & I can supply everything you're going to need except the intermediate shaft mount.

As far as the feud is concerned, you need to do a little more research.

Archie

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Archie, not to disrupt your long time neverending threadcrossing feud or anything, but would you be willing to answer my question please? I'm willing to buy one of your kits if you can tell me whether or not it would need modification to mate a F40 to a 3800. I'm having a local speed shop do the work so I want to make sure it's relatively straight forward. If you feel the effort to answer a question about anything other than a V8 is beneath you just say so, and I will make sure I don't waste your time by offering you money for your products. If anyone else has a solution they are able to offer for this, please let me know. I wonder how much would have been accomplished if it weren't for the bickering on here. Think of all of the solutions to long existing issues there would be.....

Archie, after you're done with that, I was wondering if you could make a kit to bolt a Wankle Rotary engine to an 81 Harley Sportster?
Because, I don't like V8 bikes.

quote Originally posted by ClayTonto: What's wrong, Archie? Why won't you answer my question? You got something against WANKLES?

I knew a girl back in high School who had WANKLES & everyone stayed away from her.

A

quote Originally posted by Archie: You're wrong to assume that I look down on anyone with anything less than a V-8. I don't do V-6 swaps, but I have a lot of good friends that have them. I'm just not into them. I've had several people ask if I can help them with the 6 speed in a 6 cylinder swap car. Yes I can, I tell them the same thing I'm about to tell you. I can supply everything you need as long as you have your engine of choice & a strick shift F/W for it. The only part I can't supply for a non stock V-6 in a Fiero is the intermediate shaft bearing mount. I can't supply that part because I haven't personally done a 6 speed with those engines & thus had no engine to design that mount to. However, I've had a few customers with 3800's & other V-6's in FWD cars & 2 in Fieros, that tell me that the intermediate shaft mount that comes with the G6 intermediate shaft is easily modified to bolt right to the 3800. I can't prove that because I haven't done one myself. I've done 6 speed swaps to 4.9 Fieros & Fieros with the stock V-6, so I have mounts designed for them. Just haven't done a 3800 V-6. So you would need to supply the F/W & bolt that F/W to the engine & take a measurement for me & I can supply everything you're going to need except the intermediate shaft mount. As far as the feud is concerned, you need to do a little more research. Archie

Thanks for the answer. Actually I DID call Archie, and got much less of a response than he just gave. As far as the feud goes, I've read about as much as I care to. I've even seen it go to other forums. I'm not taking sides or saying it's your fault it's still going, but damn this is getting pretty tiring when every thread that both you and the Texas guys get into turns into this. It's been going on for years now from the dates of the different threads. It makes it a LOT harder on the rest of us to sift through and find the information we're looking for. Obviously my input isn't going to make a difference, but I felt that if I have to keep reading it, I should be able to at least voice my opinion. You would think by now you would just ignore each other.

Anyway, I'll look into placing an order when I get close to the swap then, should be this spring.

One question i got and figured id ask in here to see if anyone knows. TO do a 3800 swap to a stock fiero manual we cut down the camaro flywheel. At stock thickness will it work with the f40??? I'm not sure how much is actually cut off i just see a final thickness for the 3800 swaps. Thought i would throw this out to help you and others in the future.

I can not say for sure with the 3800 but the 3.4 and 3800 share the same trans and were offered in the same year as they were taking the 3.4 out. having a 3.4 flywheel from my 3.4 I was able to measure it and it is the correct thickness needed. This is a good build thread from another forum that I guy did the swap with a 3800 to F40 he had a pressure plate built from Spec might be a lot of help to you all. http://www.clubgp.com/newfo...ookieCheck=650892749

it sounds like the issue is the bell housing in to deep, could someone not just modify the bell housing so it would not be so deep? im guessing the bell housing and trans-axle is one piece so take the gears out and cut and weld. for me its most of the time easier to make something then buy something. i have not read the whole thread so i my have missed something that would totally debunk this idea.