i'm trying to decide which engine swap to do on my '88 GT. NTFC has a lot of 3800 SC cars in the club, i want to do something different. so i have narrow it down to an LS4 or 3800 turbo. i don't have a clue how much an 3800 turbo will cost but have a ruff idea what an LS4 swap will cost. i plan on using the auto transmission that comes with the donor engine. i'm not looking for a high hp swap somewhere around the 300 hp range. from reading it looks like the 3800 has more performance upgrades than the LS4 but i would really like to say i have a V8 Fiero. Cost will be the major determining factor on my swap, unless it's a wash then i'll flip a coin.

a few questions:
1. which engine combo will give me the most bang for the buck?
2. which one will be more reliable?
3. what year LS4 to use?
4. which 3800 and year to use?
5. anyone have a parts list breakdown on what is needed and their cost?
6. TBD


thanks...

votes:
LS4 - 7
3800 - 3

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www.northtexasfieroclub.org
'88 GT Forsale

[This message has been edited by Tom Slick (edited 05-04-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Tom Slick: i'm trying to decide which engine swap to do on my '88 GT. NTFC has a lot of 3800 SC cars in the club, i want to do something different. so i have narrow it down to an LS4 or 3800 turbo. i don't have a clue how much an 3800 turbo will cost but have a ruff idea what an LS4 swap will cost. i plan on using the auto transmission that comes with the donor engine. i'm not looking for a high hp swap somewhere around the 300 hp range. from reading it looks like the 3800 has more performance upgrades than the LS4 but i would really like to say i have a V8 Fiero. Cost will be the major determining factor on my swap, unless it's a wash then i'll flip a coin. a few questions: 1. which engine combo will give me the most bang for the buck? 2. which one will be more reliable? 3. what year LS4 to use? 4. which 3800 and year to use? 5. anyone have a parts list breakdown on what is needed and their cost? 6. TBD thanks...

1. which engine combo will give me the most bang for the buck?
I am going to say price wise the swaps will run a pretty close race. The starting price for the LS4 swap is going to be more cause of the motor/trans but then the cost of the turbo is going to bring the cost of the 3800 swap up. I would say that the turbo 3800 will give you more bang for the buck in the end though


2. which one will be more reliable?
I think both will be reliable if done the right way with all the bugs worked out.


3. what year LS4 to use?
From reading any year can be used with the 05s being a little differant. The biggest issue I see on the LS4 is that no one is supporting the wiring harness for it yet. While it has been done, no one offers it as a plug/play harness.

4. which 3800 and year to use?
From what I have seen other do with the L-26 and what the low mileage L-26s are going for that would be my pick. The motor can be picked up low mileage for about $400. Many on CGP have use the L-26 for top swaps and have ran alot of HP thru them with no issues. The L-26 is the S3 N/A 3800 motor. The L-76/32 can also be used but finding them for a decent price is getting harder to do.

5. anyone have a parts list breakdown on what is needed and their cost?
I have what is needed for the LS4 swap or atleast what I have had to buy so far. I have been researching the 3800 turbo side since you mentioned it the other day. Would require the same parts as the SC plus additional parts related to the turbo side of the swap.

6. TBD
Go turbo 3800--Being I want to do one but don't want to take my car down to do so.

Tom, I think either way you choose will be cool.
But, If I had the 5 K now that I had when I did my 3.8 swap 9 years ago, it would now be the LS V8 motors sence there more around, and if there was someone makeing the LS harness a plug and play, I would go the LS route, all the new Tech that make the LS motors lighter is great ,and was a reason why I stayed away from the cast iron V8 then ( I know the LS 4 is cast Iron).
I have thought about selling my Highly Moded 3.8 SC and going that route alot, Hey 300 Hp to start, gobbs of Tourqe, V8 rumble, lots of after market for the LS motors. And I thnk, GM does not make the 3.8 anymore?
Plus, we need an LS swap in our club.
JMT...
Steve

quote Originally posted by Custom84cp: ( I know the LS 4 is cast Iron).

Actually, it is all aluminum... at least on the Monte's, Impy's, and GXP's...

As for the truck/Tahoe 5.3's... I don't know.

I say go 4.3L vortech, Tom.

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: Actually, it is all aluminum... at least on the Monte's, Impy's, and GXP's... As for the truck/Tahoe 5.3's... I don't know. I say go 4.3L vortech, Tom.

Isnt the truck application an LQ9, not an LS series?

hmmm....

the 5.3 in the truck/tahoe/suburban is cast iron. to work in the fiero it will need an adapter plate unlike the LS4.

i need a list of pro's and con's on each swap.

[This message has been edited by Tom Slick (edited 05-03-2009).]

until a V8 car beats my 1/4 mile time, I vote turbo 3800

The money invested into this would make a set of tires look expensive, and make LS4 look like a duke running on 2 cylinders.

450-550HP to the crank without much issue, depending on nitrous/gas. Total investment from motor to trans to turbo parts is still under $1000 (swap bits and the car ran me about 500-600)

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/100292.html

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The money invested into this would make a set of tires look expensive, and make LS4 look like a duke running on 2 cylinders. 450-550HP to the crank without much issue, depending on nitrous/gas. Total investment from motor to trans to turbo parts is still under $1000 (swap bits and the car ran me about 500-600) https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/100292.html

Is that one of your famous "$100 junkyard motors"?

That motor was a bit more because it had less than 50k on it, got it for $300, and it came with a parts car that I made more than that parting out (and I used a ton of the bits on it in my car/swap)

There's allways the LS4 turbo.....

http://www.cartuning.ca/pro...grandprix&engine=ls4

A couple of threads on CT turbo kits on the LS4 W-bodies
http://www.ls1tech.com/foru...o-kit-installed.html
http://www.ls1tech.com/foru...s4-turbo-update.html


Cheers

For what it's worth. Been driving my ls4 swap for about 11months now. It has been SUPER dependable, great power, good mileage, and oh yes, sounds FANTASTIC!

turbo northstar

quote Originally posted by RONT4.9: For what it's worth. Been driving my ls4 swap for about 11months now. It has been SUPER dependable, great power, good mileage, and oh yes, sounds FANTASTIC!

I agree that the LS4 is a good engine choice but the active fuel management (VVT) and traction control issues seem to be a stumbling block for a successful completion of this swap. Was it hard getting them under control?

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I have a 3800 Turbo now. It is fast and fun, but my vote would be for the LS4.
I have been thinking about swapping the 3800 Turbo out for an LS4.
I do a lot of mountain driving. Lots of sharp turns and elevation changes. I think the LS4 would be better in this situation.

What is going to be the use of the car?
Daily driver, Drag Racing, Road Course, Auto-X

[This message has been edited by tampalinc (edited 05-04-2009).]

quote Originally posted by tampalinc: I have a 3800 Turbo now. It is fast and fun, but my vote would be for the LS4. I have been thinking about swapping the 3800 Turbo out for an LS4. I do a lot of mountain driving. Lots of sharp turns and elevation changes. I think the LS4 would be better in this situation. What is going to be the use of the car? Daily driver, Drag Racing, Road Course, Auto-X

99% will be daily driver the other %1 is up for discussion.

quote Originally posted by tampalinc: I have a 3800 Turbo now. It is fast and fun, but my vote would be for the LS4. I have been thinking about swapping the 3800 Turbo out for an LS4.

Oddly enough me too. I've already started planning the V8 build..

Don't get me wrong, the 3800turbo is amazing. But its done, it runs perfect day in and day out, and now i'm bored. The WORST part about an engine swap for me is the completion of it. Now I have nothing to work on all the time. I beat the heck out of the 3800 and run up to 22psi on this thing without issues. Its a true rain/snow/sun daily driver but I'm at the point where I think an LS engine is going to end up in the garage very shortly.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 05-04-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I agree that the LS4 is a good engine choice but the active fuel management (VVT) and traction control issues seem to be a stumbling block for a successful completion of this swap. Was it hard getting them under control?

No issues with traction control or torque management (Darth done the programming) I retained the VVT for better mileage along with the tap shift and cruise control.

quote Originally posted by RONT4.9: I retained the VVT for better mileage

Do you happen to know what kind of gas mileage you are getting on the Highway/Interstate?

[This message has been edited by tampalinc (edited 05-05-2009).]

quote Originally posted by RONT4.9: No issues with traction control or torque management (Darth done the programming) I retained the VVT for better mileage along with the tap shift and cruise control.

Correction; It's the DOD/AFM not the VVT (ls4 doesn't have the VVT). Mileage is about 22 average of city & highway. Don't know actual highway mileage.

quote Originally posted by RONT4.9: Correction; It's the DOD/AFM not the VVT (ls4 doesn't have the VVT). Mileage is about 22 average of city & highway. Don't know actual highway mileage.

Yes my nomenclature was incorrect. The LS4 is definitley DOD/AFM. The AFM apparently works by preventing the exhaust valve from opening after the cylinder fires and the burned exhaust gas is retained in the cylinder and compressed during the exhaust stroke. Following the exhaust stroke, the intake valve is then held closed. Withj both valves now closed the exhaust gas in the cylinder is trapped, expanded and compressed over and over again like a gas shock . I can see that this system gives great mileage as you're operating at far less displacement until power is called for. To swap in the LS4 is to retain both the AFM and ETC and the traction control. If you have everythng working then thats quite an achievement.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

i have come to a decision on my dilemma.
i have decided to do both, since i have two fieros that i'm planning on keeping for a while why not do both.

the GT w/auto will get the LS4.
the Formula w/5spd will get the turbo 3800.

the GT will be done first and the Formula will be done in the future.

thanks for everyones opinions.

quote Originally posted by Tom Slick: i have come to a decision on my dilemma. i have decided to do both, since i have two fieros that i'm planning on keeping for a while why not do both. the GT w/auto will get the LS4. the Formula w/5spd will get the turbo 3800. the GT will be done first and the Formula will be done in the future. thanks for everyones opinions.

Been lurking on this thread, didn't have any opinion worthy of posting. So, I just lurked. As long as the transaxle will hold the power you're putting to it and you're happy with the handling, sounds like you've got a plan. Keep us posted.

Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Been lurking on this thread, didn't have any opinion worthy of posting. So, I just lurked. As long as the transaxle will hold the power you're putting to it and you're happy with the handling, sounds like you've got a plan. Keep us posted. Ron

i didn't even think about that on the 5sp maybe i'll just do an n/a 3800 for starters then add a turbo later or something completely different.

These are going to cost you a grip even if you are planning to do most of the work yourself? Do you have a budget in mind? Which one are you going to do first?

quote Originally posted by nosrac: These are going to cost you a grip even if you are planning to do most of the work yourself? Do you have a budget in mind? Which one are you going to do first?

i will get stephen to do the work, when his schedule allows. maybe this will be the push for him to finish his swap.
i have the budget to get the LS4 started, and will be completed when i sell my other '88 GT. waiting on FieroAddiction to
get his mounts and alt bracket in stock so i can purchase them. so the LS4 is planned first.

the formula swap is something in the distance future and who knows what new engines will be available then.

can't wait to see your new ride

quote Originally posted by Tom Slick: i will get stephen to do the work, when his schedule allows. maybe this will be the push for him to finish his swap. i have the budget to get the LS4 started, and will be completed when i sell my other '88 GT. waiting on FieroAddiction to get his mounts and alt bracket in stock so i can purchase them. so the LS4 is planned first. the formula swap is something in the distance future and who knows what new engines will be available then. can't wait to see your new ride

Me either, but I know it will be worth the wait. Stephen is overrun with installs becase great engine swappers are hard to find and in short order.

You may be waiting for a long while but $$$ cash $$$ can make a person speed up the process, if you throw enough of it their way. Also, it probably will take about 6 months or so to collect all your parts and do some detailed reasearch.

When I get my car back then I plan on throwing mucho dinero @ it to get it to look as good as it performs.

Fiero=Money Pit= It make me sad when I spend $$$ on it but it makes me happy when I spend $$$ on it

quote Originally posted by Tom Slick: i have come to a decision on my dilemma. i have decided to do both, since i have two fieros that i'm planning on keeping for a while why not do both. the GT w/auto will get the LS4. the Formula w/5spd will get the turbo 3800. the GT will be done first and the Formula will be done in the future. thanks for everyones opinions.

if it was me i would say put the 5spd/LS4 together as a kickass combo if that was me!! my step dad have the 08 silverodo with the 5.3 V8 in it and that thank runs for stock!! i would love to swap in a LS4 with my 5spd i have sitting around!! i thing that LS with some minor work would be one hell of a MPG car along with a nice step in power with alota upgrades avable!!!

best of luck to you please KEEP us POSTED/W alot of PIC'S please!!!

quote Originally posted by Tom Slick: hmmm.... the 5.3 in the truck/tahoe/suburban is cast iron. to work in the fiero it will need an adapter plate unlike the LS4. i need a list of pro's and con's on each swap.

This is not true. Some of the 5.3l engines in GM trucks are all aluminum. I have an all aluminum 5.3l in my H3 and my brother has one in his Silverado. It is called a 5.3l Vortec HO. There is even an all aluminum 6.0l version that comes in the Cadi Escalade.

--Will Martin

some ls series engines in trucks are aluminum, but they aren't very common. all ls series truck engines will need an adapter plate to mate with any fwd gm trans. the ls4 is the only ls series engine with the fwd pattern thus requireing no adaptor plate. lack of the adaptor plate provides much needed space on the front of the engine, which is the big benefit of going the ls4 route.

depending on trans choice you will need a custom flywheel or flexplate. if you stick with the ls4 automatic harness issues should be easily overcome. an ls series rwd harness should be able to be made to work with an ls4 if you don't care much about the dod without too much trouble as long as you pick a harness/ecm from an ls engine with the same reluctor wheel.

i'm not aware of any running ls4 manual trans swaps as of yet. isolde is probably the farthest along. he and i are doing/planning an ls4/f40 six speed swap and there are probably others out there as well. one of the big issues with this combo is a suitible starter. there are some threads on the ls4/f40 swap but progress has stalled out for awhile. you should be able to find them using the search. time is always an issue for everyone i guess. good luck with your project.

thanks for your time, chris

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88blackchopv8

i'm planning using the stock auto trans that comes with the ls4. i don't care about the dod/afm would really like to remove as much stuff as possible. just give me basic creature comforts.

i don't know if it's possible to use a different ls intake/tb, cam, or heads but i wouldn't mind a few performance upgrades.

thanks...

it is possible to use other ls intakes, you would have to remove the dod hardware to do so. the engine could even be overbored to 5.7L. heads are the same as the ls2 heads[good] but they have heavier valves. the block dimensions are nearly identical to other ls engines. the big difference is on the trans end. there is no starter pad so if you're going automatic get yourself an engine/trans combo deal as the starter is mounted on the trans case on the ls4 auto only. this is why going with an f-40 six speed or other manual trans is difficult. some starters have been found that look like they may work, but some custom machining to the trans case and/or trans flange on the block will be required. the ls4 actually has both the fwd pattern and the rwd pattern on the block. here is a pic of the block



thanks for your time, chris

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88blackchopv8

This is my vote,

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quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: This is my vote,

i would love this in my fiero!!!

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: This is my vote,

not a bad vote if i do say so myself.
1 question, what's that by the passenger decklid hinge? coolant fill? is there enough room there?

thanks...

quote Originally posted by Tom Slick: not a bad vote if i do say so myself. 1 question, what's that by the passenger decklid hinge? coolant fill? is there enough room there? thanks...

I cant comment on the details, yet

that is the power steering tank/fill port. unless you're going to add power steering you would remove that pump. removing the pump will get you more clearance in that area but custom poly v-belt routing will be required.

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88blackchopv8

quote Originally posted by av8fiero: that is the power steering tank/fill port. unless you're going to add power steering you would remove that pump. removing the pump will get you more clearance in that area but custom poly v-belt routing will be required.

He is asking about the Coolant fill neck that is inside the Deck lid mount.

BTW I have power steering already