I may have missed the post(s) but I was surprised to not hear more discussion about GM brass going from eight to four brands; GMC, Chevy, Buick and Cadillac as part of their restructuring plan.
GM is going to cut the models offered in half soon. Many models and not just brands will vanish.
So many want to argue about saving brands and don't really understand how bad things really are in the auto industry. GM is bad off but even things are hurting at Toyota and others.
The landscape of the auto industry will be changed forever in the next year or so.
The industry is going to have to do thing differently and we will see changes we thought not possible.
It should all start with the report to Washington today.
If the car market is stagnate for 3 years even the strongest will struggle to survive.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 02-17-2009).]
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09:52 AM
JPW Member
Posts: 87 From: Lexington, KY Registered: Nov 2008
The other thread I was reading still mentioned Pontiac as a viable brand that would focus on specialty cars. This was the first thing I seen in writing that seemed to state flat out that Pontiac would be gone.
I definitely understand the reasoning behind it but being in my 40's I am still nostalgic for the good old days and I really thought Pontiac could make a breakthrough with new drivers if they focused on a specific but dedicated market.
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10:04 AM
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
http://www.gminsidenews.com...portedly-dead-75492/ Last week news broke that Saturn “could be dead within the week.” General Motors, who has received billions in federal loans from the U.S. government must report to the Administration tomorrow with a detailed business plan. Part of that business plan must include what GM plans to do with their buffet of brands. GM executives have made one thing quite clear in regards to their brand management plan: Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick are going to be their “core brands” that get most of the attention. Executives claim that Pontiac will be reduced to a “niche brand” and the rest of the North American fleet will up for grabs. It’s already well known that Hummer is for sale and GM would desperately like to unload Saab, but what about Saturn?
GMI has been told by sources very close to the situation that management and the Board of Directors have approved closing the Saturn brand as part of the plan for viability. Several options were considered for the brand, as evident with the influx of statements from various GM executives as of late about Saturn. One option was to merge the brand into the Pontiac, GMC, Buick sales channel (as GMI broke several months ago). GM also looked into selling the Saturn brand to their Chinese joint-venture in order to get the brand out of the GM umbrella.
Ultimately it sounds as if Saturn is going the way of Oldsmobile. GMI was told that the brand will be phased out down to three products; Aura, Vue and Sky. The final plug will be pulled sometime in the 2012 era. We also do not expect any future product from the brand from now on.
One of Saturn’s next flagship vehicles was supposed to launch this year; the 2010 Saturn Aura. That car was going to be a rebadged Opel Insignia for the North American market. Back in July, however, GMI broke news that the next-generation Aura had been placed on hold and was ultimately canceled. That alone led grave signs of the brand’s future.
Back in 2005 GM announced a huge reinvestment into the Saturn division. Within 18 months the Saturn brand had an entirely different lineup; a larger one to boot. Initially sales rose steadily, but the brand never has met GM expectations for sales numbers. Due to Saturn’s relatively low dealership base (just over 400 dealers in the U.S.), the costs of closing the division will not likely hit numbers that the closing of Oldsmobile did.
Other Brands
GMI has also been updated on the status of the other “non-core” brands. The Hummer brand is expected to be sold. GM supposedly still has interested buyers; they are just in negotiations and awaiting the outcome of the federal loans.
In regards to Saab, we’re told that if the Swedish government does not offer a bailout plan for the Saab division GM will morph the brand with Cadillac globally and eventually remove it from the division lineup. The “morph” process would be similar to how GM merged Daewoo and Chevrolet globally, which has been quite successful. If the Swedish government offers a bailout, GM will use that money to separate Saab from the rest of GM in order to make it more attractive to sell off as an asset sale.
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10:32 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6206 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Saturn has so many Astra's right now they are not offering a new model on the web site.
As time goes on GM will be smaller leander and better to deal witht he future but we all will have to learn to live with Chevy Caddy or Buick. I really don't see Pontiac being anything more than a very limited model just to keep from having to buy the fanchise dealers out. It will remain a rebadge of another GM car Opel or Holden.
Opel will be more combinde with Buick. The Insigna will be the first rebadged Opel as a Buick as it is in China.
What ever GM sells here will also be sold overseas. We will see very few if any one market cars.
With China coming to MFG cars in Mexico and selling them trough big box stores like Costco or Walmart things are going to get a little weird to what we know now.
The companies that live will have efficent, affordable, dependable cars. Many look at what Hyundia has done and the others will try to copy their moves.
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12:21 PM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by hyperv6: With China coming to MFG cars in Mexico and selling them trough big box stores like Costco or Walmart things are going to get a little weird to what we know now.
Hey hyper... this is something new to me... you wouldn't happen to have a link to an article or somesuch, wouldya?
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12:52 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
With China coming to MFG cars in Mexico and selling them trough big box stores like Costco or Walmart things are going to get a little weird to what we know now.
This is unlikely... the powerful Dealership lobby has ensured that it's a CRIME for car manufacturers to sell directly to the public. It's been tried a few times and then shut down...
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In 1999, as governor of Texas, George W. Bush signed what was then the nation's toughest law in the country banning new car sales online. Egged on by local car dealerships, state regulators invoked the law to help shut down Ford's fledgling attempt to sell used cars online.
Ford had started letting people buy used cars on its website; local dealerships delivered them. But Texas regulators cracked down, threatening Ford with $10,000 daily fines for allegedly violating a state law banning manufacturers from selling their products directly to the public. Ford tried to fight back in court, arguing that the state franchise law was a restraint on interstate commerce, but the court was no more sympathetic than the governor.
The federal judge hearing the case wrote that if Ford were allowed to sell cars online, "all state regulatory schemes would be nullified" as they "fall before the mighty altar of the Internet." Texas regulators, never known for regulating much of anything, also forced GM to abandon its foray into e-commerce. The automaker had bought a handful of dealerships in the state to use as distributors for cars bought online, but regulators refused to give GM a dealer license. GM gave up and sold off the dealerships.
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02:03 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6206 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Although they have not come out and said it, I would look for Pontiac to be allowed to die of natural causes in due course too, just as they did to Olds and will do to Saturn. It would be sad to see it go, but these are extraordinary times. They are billing Pontiac as a niche brand… at least for now… but what does that really mean?
Does it mean they will be a sporty niche brand? The Solstice is done in a few years, and I suspect sooner than the 2012 timeline that has previously been rumored. (it is far too easy for a target in the restructuring for many reasons). There is the G8, but is the G8 enough to support the brand? Also, what’s the future there… with fuel economy standards about to turn sharply up, big and heavy RWD sedans appear to have a very limited lifespan. There isn’t much of anything else in the pipeline either to replace it or Solstice.
From what I have seen and heard, If it’s hasn’t been designated as a “core” brand, I wouldn’t expect much of a future.
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03:52 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6206 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
This is unlikely... the powerful Dealership lobby has ensured that it's a CRIME for car manufacturers to sell directly to the public. It's been tried a few times and then shut down...
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In 1999, as governor of Texas, George W. Bush signed what was then the nation's toughest law in the country banning new car sales online. Egged on by local car dealerships, state regulators invoked the law to help shut down Ford's fledgling attempt to sell used cars online.
Ford had started letting people buy used cars on its website; local dealerships delivered them. But Texas regulators cracked down, threatening Ford with $10,000 daily fines for allegedly violating a state law banning manufacturers from selling their products directly to the public. Ford tried to fight back in court, arguing that the state franchise law was a restraint on interstate commerce, but the court was no more sympathetic than the governor.
The federal judge hearing the case wrote that if Ford were allowed to sell cars online, "all state regulatory schemes would be nullified" as they "fall before the mighty altar of the Internet." Texas regulators, never known for regulating much of anything, also forced GM to abandon its foray into e-commerce. The automaker had bought a handful of dealerships in the state to use as distributors for cars bought online, but regulators refused to give GM a dealer license. GM gave up and sold off the dealerships.
With time as they are things are going to change as they will have to change.
It was not long ago that many would say there was no chance the UAW may not be around and that GM would close down several divisions.
It also was not long ago Hyundia translated into English ment walking. But today they are scaring Honda and Toyota.
I have learned never say never anymore.
Times like this even the strongest in the industry are changing their ways because they are hurting.
If GM goes with Chapter 11 a lot of things will change and this option is more possible than it has been because of the economy.
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03:57 PM
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7582 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
...I guess they are going to scrap the Corvette then (it was also not mentioned)
...or maybe it will become a Pontiac - since that is going to be the 'speciality' car line...
Oh so many ways to read into this...
As of now the Vette will remain as it is. The C7 is on hold. They will continue with the present model for the forseeable future.
As for it to see a new gen has yet to be determind. GM wants to get it house in order first and then see what they can so with new Goverment regs etc.
In other words get use to the Vette we have as it will be around for a while with minnor updates. Thought the ZR1 may only last a few years.
The Camaro also is planned till 2016 when the Zeta dies.
After that they are working on plans yet to be decided yet but the Camaro can easily live on in a smaller package with a Turbo V6. THe V8 will soon be in only pick up trucks due to the Emission and fuel regs.
As of now there is a lot up in the air as with the Goverment hassel with Emissions, CAFE and GM's own money trouble. Many projects are ready to go but are on hold till GM knows where it's future course lies. When you have to plan 5-6 years in advance and they change rules every 6 months and you don't know how your going to pay for it product planning can be a mess.
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09:03 PM
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
GM seeks up to $30B in aid, will cut 47,000 jobs, close 5 plants
Tom Krisher and Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writers Tuesday February 17, 2009, 8:14 pm EST
DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp., presenting a dire outlook for the future, said Tuesday it may need $30 billion in total government financing to weather the economic downturn and would cut 47,000 jobs worldwide and shutter five more U.S. factories in a massive restructuring plan.
The job cuts, which would take place by the end of this year, include 10,000 salaried and 37,000 blue-collar positions, amounting to 19 percent of the company's current global work force.
GM is already surviving on $13.4 billion in federal loans and said in a 117-page plan submitted to the Treasury Department that it would seek an additional $16.6 billion if economic conditions worsen, but it could achieve profitability in two years and fully repay its loans by 2017.
The U.S. automaker presented its turnaround plan as it worked to win concessions from the United Auto Workers union and bondholders to dramatically resize the company. The UAW said it reached a tentative deal with GM, Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. on contract changes, but discussions were still under way about how the companies would fund union-run trust funds that will take over the companies' retiree health care obligations starting next year.
GM said it was making progress but had not yet achieved all the concessions from union workers, lenders, dealers and suppliers that the Bush administration sought in the loan terms provided last December.
Chief Financial Officer Ray Young said the company hopes to exchange two-thirds of its roughly $28 billion in unsecured bond debt by the end of March in order to meet the loan terms.
Bondholders, he said, signed a letter saying that they were making progress with the company. The UAW also signed a similar letter saying progress had been made on the health care trust fund. The terms of the loan suggest that GM make half of the required $20 billion in payments to the fund as company stock instead of cash.
Young said the talks have reached a critical stage.
"At this juncture we feel we can make progress" and meet requirements to finalize the deals by March 31, he said.
President Barack Obama's administration will review the plans from GM and Chrysler LLC but could pull the loans if they don't approve the turnaround plans by then. The review could be extended into April, but if the government demands the money back it would force the companies into bankruptcy.
Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said the plan submitted Tuesday is more aggressive than the one presented to the government in December because besides U.S. sales plummeting to a 26-year low, the global economy and auto sales worldwide have deteriorated since then.
"Today's plan is significantly more aggressive because it has to be," Wagoner told reporters Tuesday night. "We have taken stronger actions, we needed to."
In December, GM said it might need a total of $18 billion in government financing but only got a commitment of $13.4 billion, including $4 billion that the automaker received Tuesday.
GM predicted it could run out of money next month and said it wants to receive an additional $2 billion in March and an additional $2.6 billion in April.
The company has a $4.5 billion revolving line of credit that must be refinanced in 2011 but now believes that private funding won't be available, so the automaker is asking the government to lend the money.
If market conditions deteriorate, GM says it may also need an additional $7.5 billion revolving line of credit to stay afloat, for a total potential request of $30 billion.
Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson said the company explored three bankruptcy scenarios, all of which would cost the government more than $30 billion.
The government, he said, is the only place the company could get financing for a Chapter 11 reorganization, because the credit markets are frozen. The worst-case bankruptcy scenario would cost the government $100 billion, Henderson said, because revenue would severely drop.
He said there is not a lot of research about whether people would buy cars from an automaker in bankruptcy protection, but "that which is there suggests that sales fall off a cliff."
GM's plan details extensive cuts. Of the 47,000 jobs to be slashed, 26,000 will be outside the U.S. The new plan has the U.S. work force declining from about 92,000 hourly and salaried employees at the end 2008 to 72,000 by 2012.
In its Dec. 2 plan to the Bush administration, GM said it would cut the number of plants from 47 in 2008 to 38 by 2012. But the new blueprint goes further, cutting an additional five plants by 2012 to a total of 33 facilities. GM didn't identify which plants will be closed.
GM would further reduce the number of vehicle models. The plan envisions a reduction in nameplates from 48 in 2008 to 36 by 2012. That's four fewer models than in the December plan.
GM said all of its major U.S. vehicle launches from 2009 to 2014 would be high-mileage cars and crossovers.
GM's eight brands would be reduced to four core lines -- Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac and GMC -- as the automaker said in December. But the company said Pontiac also would remain as "a highly focused niche brand."
GM, which has been reviewing the Saab brand and offered it for sale, said the Swedish unit could file for bankruptcy later this month. GM said it is requesting support from the Swedish government prior to any sale, and the company has developed a proposal that would cap GM's financial support with Saab's operations becoming an independent business by January 2010.
Wagoner said the company is still talking to potential buyers for the Hummer brand.
"We're going to try to draw that to a conclusion one way or another by the end of March," he said.
The Saturn brand, meanwhile, will remain in operation through the end of 2011. GM said it's open to the possibility of a plan from retailers or investors that would allow a spin-off or sale of Saturn.
GM would significantly accelerate the number of gas-electric hybrids and plug-in hybrid cars. It plans to offer 14 hybrids and plug-ins by 2012 and 26 by 2014, when alternative-fuel vehicles are expected to account for 65 percent of sales.
Included in the projection is the plug-in Chevrolet Volt, due in showrooms by late 2010, and two additional vehicles sharing the Volt's extended-range electric vehicle technology.
GM, however, is scaling back its anticipated fuel economy gains, a metric closely watched by environmentalists in Congress. GM said it will meet federal fuel efficiency standards through the 2015 model years, but the progress will be slower.
The Dec. 2 plan said its car fleet average would reach 37.3 miles per gallon by 2012 compared with 31.6 in 2008. But GM now predicts its car fleet will reach 33.7 mpg by 2012 and not surpass 38 mpg until 2014.
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10:36 PM
Feb 18th, 2009
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Todays Wall Street Journal article.... http://online.wsj.com/artic...489494750801713.html "GM said it now plans to phase out its Hummer brand this year and Saturn in 2011 if no alternatives arise. Earlier, it said it was trying to sell Hummer and was re-evaluating the future of Saturn. The company also is scaling back Pontiac and trying to sell Saab, its Swedish brand."
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07:46 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6206 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Pontiac will not be a rebadge Chevy and will be a model car GM sells world wide. If we get 2-3 models we will be lucky.
Kind of like Isuzu...
Remember when they used to sell a full line of cars and trucks? Then in the 90s they dumped the cars. Then in the early 2000s the SUV and Truck line started slowly disappearing.
Last I knew Isuzu still existed but they only sell two models and those are a rebadged GMC Envoy and another that is a rebadged Chevrolet Colorado. They basically went out of business without buying out the dealerships.
Edit... I just read that effective January 31, 2009 Isuzu has completely withdrawn from the US market except for their commercial truck sales.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 02-18-2009).]
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02:41 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6206 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Remember when they used to sell a full line of cars and trucks? Then in the 90s they dumped the cars. Then in the early 2000s the SUV and Truck line started slowly disappearing.
Last I knew Isuzu still existed but they only sell two models and those are a rebadged GMC Envoy and another that is a rebadged Chevrolet Colorado. They basically went out of business without buying out the dealerships.
Edit... I just read that effective January 31, 2009 Isuzu has completely withdrawn from the US market except for their commercial truck sales.
Yep they pulled out.
Also if they keep the Pontiac name alive they can rebuild it when they have the money and product to do so if they choose.
I still expect Pontiac may slowly waste away and vanish by 2016. I hope I am wrong but right now there is no need for them.
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06:39 PM
Fformula88 Member
Posts: 7891 From: Buffalo, NY Registered: Mar 2000
Originally posted by hyperv6: Yep they pulled out.
Also if they keep the Pontiac name alive they can rebuild it when they have the money and product to do so if they choose.
I still expect Pontiac may slowly waste away and vanish by 2016. I hope I am wrong but right now there is no need for them.
I am with you on this. The one thing that could work for it is that the idea of the BPG sales channel (Buick, Pontiac, GMC) is to have a full line of vehicles under one roof. GMC obviously for trucks, Buick for somewhat luxurious cars (and maybe some sporty luxurious cars again and not grandpa mobiles.... there is at least one interesting idea under consideration here at GM). The problem is, cheap, economy cars will not really fit Buick's market position, which is where Pontiac can come in. Not really cars like the G8, but cars like the Vibe. Small, cheaper vehicles aimed at the lower end of the market where you don't want to go with Buick.
I am still not sure that is enough for the brand to survive, but if it does I suspect that will be it's future more than a niche performance division.
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07:07 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
It's official...GM is throwing Pontiac under the bus to get the loan money.
In GM's own words, "Pontiac—which is part of the Buick-Pontiac-GMC retail channel—will be a highly focused niche brand."
Or in another spot GM states, "• Pontiac: Youthful & Sporty – with niche focus"
What that means is anybody's guess, but there will not be a full line of cars. In case you hadn't noticed Buick doesn't have a full line either. You need to add Buick, Pontiac and GMC together to get a full line.
I'm still trying to figure out which niche Pontiac is going to fill.
Maybe keep the Solstice?
How about rebadge the Camaro as a Firebird and kill the Camaro.
Maybe dare I say, a mid-engine convertible??
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09:01 PM
PFF
System Bot
Fformula88 Member
Posts: 7891 From: Buffalo, NY Registered: Mar 2000
Don't get too hopeful on the sports cars at Pontiac. I believe what they will do is phase things out as they reach the end of their product cycle.
The Solstice will only survive the current version. At this point, there will be no redesign. That probably means production ends by 2012 at the latest. However, I strongly believe that it won't make it nearly that long.
After that, it depends on the direction. I wouldn't count on a Camaro clone either. GM has long stated there would not be a Pontiac version of this Camaro. They were going to do a new zeta based GTO,, but that has also been axed. I suspect the G8 will run it's current cycle and be done too, since there is little place for large, thirsty V8 sedans in the new epa fuel economy standard world.
If they go youth oriented, your really talking about vehicles like is offered over at Scion. Smallish in size, cheap in price, styling (well, maybe... not sure a toaster on wheels is styling).
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09:08 PM
Indiana_resto_guy Member
Posts: 7158 From: Shelbyville, IN USA Registered: Jul 2000
Makes me wonder why keep the GMC since they are the same a cheverolet unless they are looking at the larger truck line.
I never understood this either. I mean so the GMCs are a bit more upscale than the Chevy, but not much. And why have a Denali when you have an Escalade? It seems GM still doesn't get it. As much as I hate to say it the whole BPG line could disappear in North America and we wouldn't miss it. Sell Buicks in China if you must, but here in the US, focus on your bread and butter, (Caddys and Chevys).
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11:38 PM
Feb 19th, 2009
sadie goad Member
Posts: 274 From: Stevens Point, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Apr 2008
This is what I believe would make sense for GM. Chevy is the all-around brand, with more affordable cars for every need. GMC is the high-end "luxury" type trucks. Cadillac would be luxury cars. Pontiac would be the smaller and more performance driven area. If they could, put the Corvette here, but I know that would be blasphemy for many Chevy folks to make the Corvette a Pontiac. Just have that be the only performance car for Chevy, then, for nostalgia's sake. I don't see where Buick fits in because Cadillac = expensive luxury, Pontiac = less expensive but still with class. GMC is expensive, Pontiac and Chevy are less so. My $0.02
------------------ I'm a poor college student because I modify my cars!
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12:02 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6206 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
I never understood this either. I mean so the GMCs are a bit more upscale than the Chevy, but not much. And why have a Denali when you have an Escalade? It seems GM still doesn't get it. As much as I hate to say it the whole BPG line could disappear in North America and we wouldn't miss it. Sell Buicks in China if you must, but here in the US, focus on your bread and butter, (Caddys and Chevys).
GMC is made because they make a big profit nothing more.
The key is GM is working to the goal of selling it models and brands world wide just as most other companies do today.
Checy will become the work horse divison and Cadillac is going up scale in a Mercedes way with lower volume cars that cost much more and make more profit.
Buick will be there to fill the gap between where Audi, Low end BMW, Lexus and Acura are. With them doing well in china it will help absorb the development cost here so it will help them show a profit.
Besides to close down Buick and Pontiac would cost a lot of money to buy all the dealers out.
Pontiac for the most is not sold out side North America and in as mess here. Going the niche product way is going to be the best for them as we will get cars Holden and Opel make that don't fit the Buick mode. Only look for 2-3 cars at best.
This is all being done to make a profit and is a proven way buy many other MFG outside NA.
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06:59 AM
Scythe Member
Posts: 1055 From: Burke, Virginia Registered: Apr 2003
Buick is /huge/ oversea's, and as such they won't kill that brand anytime soon. Pontiac is probably going to be similar to Scion in relation to the Toyota brand. Cheaper, smaller, sporty cars for college-aged folks. That kinda thing