Don't let me mislead anyone. This is not a fraud issue. For a fraud you need substantially the movement of money with no product in return. That said, on the many Ebay ripoffs or similar kinds of purchase beefs, the police are way too overworked to handle this type of minor complaint. Believe me when I say this is minor when compared to the cases I have seen.

If money has been paid and faulty workmanship occured or only partial contract fulfillment, you end up using Small Claims Court in the jurisdiction of the purchase. This is the reason for the frustration in many Ebay complaints. Just what jurisdiction does the Ebay transaction occur in? And, which country?

In the case of my two friends, they offered vehicles for Xtreme to do R&D on. So, they didn't pay. (so far as I know) This means the "ripoff", if one occurs, is perhaps mischief in a stretch (no intent shown IMO) or simple poor business ethics. It may, however, be sheer incompetence.

Either way, the only recourse in a formal sense, for damages, is through the courts, and believe me when I say that this too, would be a waste of time. Mid is doing the right thing, although time consuming and frustrating. I am simply skeptical about a positive outcome for either Eclipse or Mid.

Hope this clears it up. Xtreme may be inept business men, incompetent, or simply inconsiderate, but no evidence that I can see of criminal activity or intent. Sorry if somebody construed my comments the wrong way.

Arn

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 05-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Don't let me mislead anyone. This is not a fraud issue. For a fraud you need substantially the movement of money with no product in return. That said, on the many Ebay ripoffs or similar kinds of purchase beefs, the police are way too overworked to handle this type of minor complaint. Believe me when I say this is minor when compared to the cases I have seen. If money has been paid and faulty workmanship occured or only partial contract fulfillment, you end up using Small Claims Court in the jurisdiction of the purchase. This is the reason for the frustration in many Ebay complaints. Just what jurisdiction does the Ebay transaction occur in? And, which country? In the case of my two friends, they offered vehicles for Xtreme to do R&D on. So, they didn't pay. (so far as I know) This means the "ripoff", if one occurs, is perhaps mischief in a stretch (no intent shown IMO) or simple poor business ethics. It may, however, be sheer incompetence. Either way, the only recourse in a formal sense, for damages, is through the courts, and believe me when I say that this too, would be a waste of time. Mid is doing the right thing, although time consuming and frustrating. I am simply skeptical about a positive outcome for either Eclipse or Mid. Hope this clears it up. Xtreme may be inept business men, incompetent, or simply inconsiderate, but no evidence that I can see of criminal activity or intent. Sorry if somebody construed my comments the wrong way. Arn

I don't know, it looks like fraud to me. CPU did pay these guys for a produce and they didn't fulfill their end of the deal.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/069713.html

quote Originally posted by Xtreme-Doors: Hi, My name is Chris Wesley, and I'm from Xtreme-Doors. For those who are still interested in Lambo / Vertical Doors for their cars, my company would be glad to take on this project, and create custom bolt-on Lambo Door Systems. We will be able to provide 3 different types of Lambo Door Systems, as well as 2 other systems. They are : 1.) Universal Weld-on 105° Lambo Door System ($400) 2.) Car Specific Vertical Door System (opens 70° Vertical, and capable of opening 45° Horizontally) ($500) 3.) Brand New 90° Bolt-On Vertical Door System. ($600) 4.) Gullwing Door System ($450) 5.) Suicide Door System ($300) Also we can provide the upgrade to make these kits completely automatic, so your doors open at the push of a button. I can provide pricing on this if anybody is interested in that option. All of our products have been engineered to be very strong, as well we incorporated the use of Aircraft Grade Aluminum for some of the components on our products to help reduce the overall weight. We also utilize self lubricating bushings in all points of movement, to provide smooth movement. I will post more information within the next day or so regarding our products, but in the meantime feel free to browse our website at http://www.xtreme-doors.com . If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me. Email is sales@xtreme-doors.com . Also if there is someone I need to talk to on this site about setting this up, if someone could let me know that would be greatly appreciated as I would like to start this off on the right foot. Thanks, Chris Wesley Xtreme-Doors

quote Originally posted by Xtreme-Doors: As for the pricing structure. While the website does indeed say $999.00, that is the retail price, and we have lowered our prices significantly for this group buy. This helps us provide products for a vehicle that Lambo Door Conversions aren't readily available for, and helps us increase our applications list. Our prices are also in Canadian Dollars. And again if any one has any other questions I'd be more than happy to answer them for you. If you'd like to get in direct contact with me I can be reached at sales@xtreme-doors.com. Thanks again, Chris Wesley Xtreme-Doors

quote Originally posted by Xtreme-Doors: Hi all, First off. What we are offering is a custom made solution for the Fiero. We would work with either someone in the area, or find a donor car that we can get the necessary measurements from. As well for those interested in the Delorian Doors, that would be the same as the Gullwing Door Kit we offer. Also for those that feel those were 2 fabricated posts, this would not be true, the reason that they look the same, is because they are. I originally posted on that other post, but seeing as it is quite old I figured it might be best to start a new thread on this topic, so I went ahead and posted the message again under a new thread to catch others interest. The reason I decided to post on this forum is because I came acrossed the other Thread that was started and saw that it became seriously dragged on, and as his last post stated that he would no longer be going thru with it, I figured for those that had been waiting, and to be let down by that, I would be more then happy to offer my services and provide a product. Again I would be more then happy to provide pictures of the products we turn out, and to set something up with someone in the area to help create a TRUE bolt on conversion. So again there was no intention of spamming, and I can see how it would appear this way, I just wanted to make sure that the post was noticed for those that have been waiting on a Lambo Door Kit. If anyone has any other questions I would be more than happy to answer them for you. Thanks again.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-22-2008).]

In our case we paid for ten kits. We have received 6 kits and nobody has struts for their kits. No progress since December. No contact in a month.

Oh... Good feelings gone...

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 05-23-2008).]

Personally, I am taking the track of continuing to be patient and hoping it works out well in the end. I know for a fact thru conversations they ARE trying and slowly working on it.

Since I do it myself, I know 1st-hand what a killer long work days are on any project. Ya cant get squat done during the week besides 10 or 15 minutes here and there, then on weekends regular life chores (home repairs, laundry, family time, daily driver maintaince ect) are so backed up that once they are done you are LUCKY to get 2-3 hours to put into a project, and that is ONLY if the job hassent stalked and harrased you to death to the point you give up fighting and arguing with them and just work the weekend so they will shut the eff up and leave you the hell alone, PLUS, we are all human beings, not robots to the economy or slaves to the customer. Things like time for food and sleep DO really come in handy.

Like Arn said, I don't think they have done anything criminal, they simply choose to run their business (part-time R&D venture right now) differently than most of us would. It might cost them some customers in the long run, but if they come up with viable bolt-on hinges that can be delivered in reasonable time, in 5 years time nobody or very few will remember the early rough days.

Personally, I think the only thing that went wrong is they went public too soon on too tight a schedule with too many different models, which is a very-very common mistake. Personally, I would have bought a junker car for a few hundred, used THAT for R&D, and kept my mouth shut until things were perfect, established that market, then gone one to the next model of car. I actually have a couple projects like that sitting on the shelf, that may or may not ever make it to the manufacturing stage and public release. (even on a small scale like the Fiero world, being a supplier can cause HUGE hassles and workloads with taxes and regulations and associated BS for very-very-very little return. Every time I get a bright idea, its something I think long and hard about if its really worth it, and the answer is usually "no")

MX3 Guy, I haven't delved TOO deeply into your particular dealings, but what does stand out to me is it was supposed to be a group buy (in other words a bulk order to get a volume discount). Simple fact is the payments did not arrive in bulk or even close together. To me, that nullifies any discount or bulk order status. If I were selling "widgets" and gave somebody a discount based on a volume order, I expect ONE SINGLE cheqe, and ship out to ONE SINGLE address. The logistics before the cheque hits my hand, or after the package leaves my shop isn't my problem. Anything else is not a bulk order/group buy. Its simply a group of associated individual sales. Again, what I see is pretty much the same mistakes as with the Fiero hinges, just a case of too much too soon. Constant threats of legal action probably aren't helping your cause much either. I can tell you for a fact that any customer tries that track with me (on any job) gets very-very-very little in the way of goodwill, effort, or attention. They actually go straight to the bottom of the priority list. I have walked out of a customers place, leaving a machine 1/2 repaired and made them wait 2 weeks, with the associated lost sales, before going back over that very thing within the past 2 months.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-23-2008).]

Mid , all you said is valid, but the one thing they should do is keep the communication going.
And not via a mediator - i.e unofficially you

People are willing to wait a very long time for a good product as long as the manufacturer doesn't go dark.
We've all seen what happened with F-I-E-R-O and these guys when they just decide to vanish from the forum.
This thread was suppose to be the comeback and as hard as a person works and all the problems in the world, he can take 3 minuets to go online and say
"Sorry guys we are doing our best - we are working on it"

My uninvolved 2c

I agree with Mister. I have 5 young kids. Patience and understanding is something that I have an abundance of, but it involves communication. I can't help someone if they don't tell me what's going on.

quote Originally posted by Eclipse: I agree with Mister. I have 5 young kids. Patience and understanding is something that I have an abundance of, but it involves communication. I can't help someone if they don't tell me what's going on.

I agree 100 percent. IF there was weekly communication I would no be having this issue. Last I heard everything was ready to go and just waiting on money for shipping. They promised to ship the final kits out a while back.This was a month ago.Our group buy would have went ok IF there was communication the ENTIRE way thru. Our members got very wary of dealing with this company when they failed time and time again to supply tracking numbers for products and many got "lost or damaged" in transit. This is why we had a hard time getting final payments.

I can 1/2-way agree with you guys on the communication thing.....1/2 way as in I want it both ways ...and I get it from both sides...and if you recall, the lack of communications was the reason I backed out of being the original test car and Jay got the spot.

As a customer, YUP, I want to know every second whats happening, and 1/2 second updates would be good.

As somebody who has to deal with the public for work and their incessant sniveling, whining, demanding to know progress, at about the 10th phone call I want to give them a right hook and scream in their face "I TOLD YOU I will call when it is ready...what part of that are you too brain-dead too understand? Just for peeing me off, it will take an extra month !! "

......Its something I deal with daily. Get into the office at 8AM, and there are 17 messages from the same guy, 5 minutes apart, starting at 3AM, wanting to know why I'm not returning his 1st call.

I dunno, the world was a whole lot simpler in that respect before 24/7 connectivity. Things were easier then. Anybody want a cell phone, pager, and private network phone REAL cheap?

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 05-23-2008).]

Hello eveyone,

I want to apologize, as I have said before, I am no longer my own boss and cannot just work around my schedule and I have been gone for work for a while. I do work construction, so I hope you can understand that I do travel a lot now as well as work long hours. Unfortunately right now time and money are on the short scale which does make things difficult. I do however want to state a few things in regards to Jarids posts as well as others :

1) During the early stages of the MX-3 group buy, we communicated regularly on the forum as well as thru emails, etc. And please let me point it out, that for the MX-3 group buy, we went out and bought a beat up MX-3 to do all of the testing on. This came out of our money and no one elses.

2) We designed the kit had it made and sent off the Jarid (MX3GUY). He installed it and informed us of a problem with the arm that did not allow the kit to go 90 degrees as it was suppose to as well as the shock was a bit under powered. We took his feedback and began correcting the kit. While we were making the neccessary changes to the arm Jarid felt the need to post on the forum telling everyone to beware that our kits were NOT bolt on. This was completely untrue and the problems he had were only with the arm rubbing the fender etc. What this caused was everyone wanting a completely new test kit sent out or someone else to test one. Jarid was quick to remove the comment after we messaged him but yet the damage had been done. So we did have another customer who got the kit, installed it, and posted about it, telling everyone it was bolt on.

3) After this we did receive two customers payments for the kits. However being a group buy we insisted on all payments being received before any kits were shipped out. But days passed and still no other payments came in so to keep the two other customers happy we shipped the two kits out with promises that the other payments would be recieved within a short period of time. This did not happen and to make a long story short, it took roughly three months for us to recieve the last of the payments.

4) Now please think about this from our perspective when dealing with our suppliers. We never got terms with our suppliers over Net 30 as we were a new business etc. Now it took us 3 months to get all the payments for those kits, 3 months. That means some of our suppliers did not get paid on time or anywhere near on time and this meant interest was added to our totals as well as those businesses no longer wanting to do business with us.

5) I will and have admitted we have made a lot of mistakes especially with the MX-3 Group Buy, but I will not allow us to be held completely responsible for this group buy. Jarid was the person running the group buy on behalf of the forum, and hence, should have been in charge of getting payments from everyone, however this was not done and we had to hunt people down ourselves on and off of the forum. This should not have had to be done. No kits should have been shipped until all payments were recieved however, we were constantly being held responsible for kits not going to the people who have paid, meanwhile we had not received all payments.

6) The legal threats have been used many times by Jarid, however he has yet to take responsibility for all of the late payments. By the time we received that last of the payments, we had so many overdue bills from suppliers that the money had to go to them (does this not make sense, how can we be expected to ship kits out when parts have not been paid for).

This is the first chance I have had to respond on this forum in a long time because my computer mother board did go and I have had no access to the internet because I have been gone for work. We are doing the best we can with the schedule we have and the money we have available. We are making several key changes to the fiero kit and we will not release a kit until this changes have taken place. But these parts cost money so we have to way and get the parts as we can afford them, so I do hope everyone understands this.

Mike - I really want to thank you for your support as well as your patience. As soon as we have a kit ready for the testing, we will let you know.

And please Jay and Dave, you will still be receiving replacement kits, however we are not going to release a kit until we feel it meets what everyone is expecting, and this new revised kit will. I will try to post as much as I can as well as keep everyone updated.

Thanks,
Kyle and Chris Wesley
Xtreme-Doors

quote Originally posted by Xtreme-Doors: thank you Mike for the continued help.

Gents, I'm not really helping you, I'm helping the guys on this forum that want real bolt-on hinges. I just happen to think that after 25 years of these cars, and dozens of vertical-hinge scam artists....NOBODY has come even close to doing a real bolt-on, at a decent price....you guys have.

and there are a LOT of gents (well, OK, 5 or 6 ) just waiting to see it happen.

Hey Kyle and Chris,

quote Originally posted by Xtreme-Doors: We are doing the best we can with the schedule we have and the money we have available. Kyle and Chris Wesley Xtreme-Doors

That's all I needed to hear

As long as you make the post above once in a week or two, it would prevent the growing doubt about your dealings.
I offered Mid to create the "redux" thread in good faith so you'll have a fresh thread to promote your product
We don't ask for daily (nor 1/2 second) updates... Just "keep in touch" EH!

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 05-24-2008).]

Nice to see some communication on this. Sounds kind of reasonable given the circumstances. That said, sometimes in product development you spend money up front and have to depend on profits down the road to get back into the black.

If the payments were late, this is a classic example of group buy problems. I just wouldn't do it unless I was a bigger business and could move product that didn't sell with the group buy.

For brand new entrepreneurs, a group buy is biting off alot. I wish all concerned some luck here. Sounds like there's been some lack of good fortune in all this.

Arn

Thanks Chris! Good to hear you guys are sstill trying. FYI to everyone, when I was at their old shop, I did see the MX3 they were testing on. I had actually contemplated buying it to "work on" myself.

Thanks Chris, and Talk to you soon.

------------------
Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

quote Originally posted by Xtreme-Doors: 6) The legal threats have been used many times by Jarid, however he has yet to take responsibility for all of the late payments. By the time we received that last of the payments, we had so many overdue bills from suppliers that the money had to go to them (does this not make sense, how can we be expected to ship kits out when parts have not been paid for). Thanks, Kyle and Chris Wesley Xtreme-Doors

I take responsibility for the delay in payments! Ive said this before on our board. Yes I did say they were not bolt on hinges. Bashing metal in on the body and cutting the fender in MY opinion makes it not a bolt on part. I have said this before. You also cannot blame ALL your overdue bills on our ONE group buy. You were already in the red with suppliers months before our group buy started. Our 10 kits did not spiral Xtreme Doors down into where they are today. Our members were wary not only due to my comment about the kit but also due to communication issues, not getting tracking numbers, and memebers doing their own research on Xtreme doors. OUR members just want to know why on 4/17 did you say that the rest of our kits would be going out within a week to a week and a half and still nothing. You say that you have still not received everyones address and I have asked more than once WHO you have not heard from and I have yet to get that info. I emailed you a request for that specific info weeks ago. It seems that every time we dont hear from you for weeks and then we give you a deadline before we start legal proceedings you get a hold of us THAT day. That is why we use the legal card. Bottom line is......I understand we are both responsible for the delays.. That is not up for debate. It has been almost six months since we finalized payments for our group buy with no progress. PLEASE just give me a weekly update to how things are going. Is that too difficult? You guys have my email addresses, and phone number.

[This message has been edited by MX3GUY (edited 05-26-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Eclipse: Thanks Chris! Good to hear you guys are sstill trying. FYI to everyone, when I was at their old shop, I did see the MX3 they were testing on. I had actually contemplated buying it to "work on" myself. Thanks Chris, and Talk to you soon.

We had many local members willing to let them borrow an mx3 but they went out and bought one anyway. From what I heard they got a good deal on the mx and were going to make other products anyways. They didnt HAVE to buy the car.

More updates anyone?

------------------
Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

They are getting new dowel pins turned for the hinges, and I ended up spending all weekend doing some badly needed upgrades and repairs to my work truck so wasn't really available to play with Fieros.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 06-02-2008).]

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: They are getting new dowel pins turned for the hinges, and I ended up spending all weekend doing some badly needed upgrades and repairs to my work truck so wasn't really available to play with Fieros.

Is there any possible way you can get the parts for the US members of my board and I will pay you to ship them to me?

Updates? calls are not being returned yet again.

------------------
Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

Nothing since last week except Dr.CPU's development with the old design (the side-force on the strut has already been taken care off in the new design from what I understand)

Does anyone know if they are around?

Nope. I have heard nothing, other than the feedback I am getting through MEM.

------------------
Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

And what I am getting is nada at the moment

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: And what I am getting is nada at the moment

still nada here too

Anybody got any news?

Anything fellas?

quote Originally posted by MX3GUY: Anything fellas?

Dave (aka Dr CPU) has moved on. He got tried of chasing them down and when the socket spindle thingie broke off and nearly cause the door to fall on his leg;- he had enough. He bought a set of VDI doors and will have them installed next month.

I've moved on with the project as well. If they get in touch and need the car, I can have a side re-assembled in a weekend of goofing off. I just couldnt sit around waiting anymore.

This sucks guys..Does anyone know what company they were using for struts? Most of my members have the kits but zero struts.

quote Originally posted by MX3GUY: This sucks guys..Does anyone know what company they were using for struts? Most of my members have the kits but zero struts.

If you can't get in touch with those (guys), I"d ask Dave (Dr. CPU). Dave's struts are too weak for the heavy Fiero door therefor they might work on a lighter BMW? Still the pivotal head IMO is underconstructed and it looks like our Fiero deck lid strut head. Like Public Emeny once said, "You can't trust it."

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 08-18-2008).]

quote Originally posted by MX3GUY: cutting the fender in MY opinion makes it not a bolt on part.

Just for the record, I happen to manage a customizing shop with more than enough experience with lambo door hinges. On the 10+ lambo door installs we have done this year from a Chevy Tahoe all the way to a Mercedes Benz SL500 I have yet to see an install that did not require cutting the fender lip to clear the hinge...

We deal exclusively with a very good and a very expensive bolt on hinge kit, LSD hinges, they are some of the best out there. Even their "bolt on" hinges require cutting the fender lips. We usually take it a step farther even with a bolt on kit and paint the body behind the fender as well as the back side of the fender which is now visible after the fender lip is cut. Again, this is with one of the best BOLT on kits on the market.

Here is a pic from outside our shop taken a couple weeks ago:



And the Roll Call:
-2008 Chevy Tahoe - LSD Hinges
-2005 Chrysler 300C - LSD Hinges
-2003 Toyota Celica - LSD Hinges
-1998 BMW 3 Series - LSD Hinges
-2003 Mazda Protege - Universal Weld-in Hinge

Its black with no writing or label on it. I will snap a pic of it tomorrow though. PM me your email address and I will send it to you. Thanks.

Fiero_Silva! How have you been? I don't get out to Winnipeg any more, as I have moved to a new job, but we'll have to do Earl's again someday.

I didn't know you ran a shop. We'll chat.

------------------
Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

Got an email today from Kyle's girlfriend. Seems they are still "out of town" since late June. Although someone logged into their youtube account two weeks back... Still no ETA as to when they are coming back. I just get "soon".