The problems I've had with Dexcool were on my '99 Grand Am that came with Dexcool and had nothing but Dexcool. Perhaps earlier formulas were bad. Perhaps it's all crap. But, I've never had the problems with regular Green antifreeze that I've seen with Dexcool.
I'll gladly give up the 5 year/100k life of Dexcool for the reliability of green. I've never had any last longer than 2 years anyway.
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06:17 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6166 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
The problems I've had with Dexcool were on my '99 Grand Am that came with Dexcool and had nothing but Dexcool. Perhaps earlier formulas were bad. Perhaps it's all crap. But, I've never had the problems with regular Green antifreeze that I've seen with Dexcool.
I'll gladly give up the 5 year/100k life of Dexcool for the reliability of green. I've never had any last longer than 2 years anyway.
Not a thing wrong in your thinking. If I had a problem and got burned I would most likely think the same way too.
I just have read some things on this and many times I read Delcool is to blaime but never how or why. I just want to know what the reason it is and it would explain a lot. There may be a day we may not have any green stuff around do to the Eco Nazi's and you may have no choice.
A good example is the removal of Zink in your motor oils. Many good mechanic's ahve wiped out cams during break in since they were not aware of the removal of the Zink in the oil. They now have to use a break in additive or a oil like Rotella T. Many for a good while blaimed it on defective cams when it was the oil all along.
With the many changes in the things we use on cars like Freon, solvents, paints, gas and coolant we can't treat it like we used to, if we do some tragic things can or will happen. It just pays to be informed and that is all I am looking for.
I have a feeling Delcool is just less forgiving than Prestone and if it is not treated correctly things can go wrong in a hurry. It may not be the coolants fault or the cars but just the lack of knowledge of many not knowing what care is needed since little has ever been said about the product from the start.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-19-2007).]
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07:17 PM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Originally posted by AE87: Only thing dex is good for is killing bees in my backyard.
Oh Nohz! Don't kill the bees!?!?!
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru: The Mercedes coolant is $20.00 a gallon. I buy it for $10.00 Dave
If you think MB coolant is expensive, check out Evans Cooling I forget how much per gallon, like $30-40 (it's come down since I first heard of it), but it is million-mile coolant. NO water, so NO corrosion. That means no electrolysis, no metal pitting, or 'water hammer' either (I don't remember the term) and it reduces hot spots and knock. It runs with very little pressure, so hoses last forever. It would be perfect for hard to work on systems as well as little-driven cars and collectibles. Oh, and it's non-toxic.
[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 11-27-2007).]
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11:46 PM
Nov 20th, 2007
befarrer Member
Posts: 1962 From: Westlock, Alberta, CANADA Registered: Aug 2002
Call me lazy, but I just buy the green prestone 50/50 pre-mix.. (For the Fiero, other brands it might be different. (my uncle learned on BMW's the hard way to do EXACTLY what BMW recommends) )No hassles with mixing, no hassles trying to get distilled water. And it's not that much more expensive. Also really good when partially flushing a system (such as when replacing a waterpump and the system drains 1/2 way) just to top off in the right ratio.
-M
I dont see a point in the 50/50 pre-mix antifreeze being more expensive. In reality, you are paying more money, or about the same money for 1/2 the product, and the rest water. I can see it at service stations in 1L jugs, but if you were replacing your coolant, you are way better off getting 2 gallons of the pure antifreese for $10/gallon, and a 5 gallon jug of distilled water for $5, than 4 gallons of premixed for $10/gallon. You save $15, and you get 3 gallons of distilled drinking water left over.
I run the prestoline yellow piss antifreeze, it is long life just like the dexcool, and is compatible with all colors. It looks like urine, and smells like paint, but it seems to be good so far with 25,000KM, I am replacing it this winter since my engine is out and I had to drain it out for the most part.
------------------ 84 Fiero Sport Coupe #1192 :: 86 Fiero Base Coupe Quad 4 HO :: 1998 Dodge Neon EX 2Dr 2.0L DOHC Auto
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12:49 AM
toadson Member
Posts: 403 From: Jerseyville, IL Registered: Jul 2006
Im still going to stick to my theory that most of you have problems because the dex cool has never been changed, and by the time you go the vehicle you owned it was already overdue for the coolant change. The stuff last 5 years or 100k miles, and most likely 5 years has come first. My family has owned a LOT of vehicles with dex cool. I have had my truck for 4 years, and it had a bad intake gasket. My dads truck, also being a 98 model, had the same problem around the same time. We have a 98 fullsize Chevy van, same problem, same time. We also did a 99 Escalade about 2 months after both our trucks, and our 2000 chevy truck is now smelling like and leaking antifreeze. Its funny, because my trucks intake gasket went in 2004 or 2005, a few years after it was due for new Dex cool. Now honestly, how many of us keep track of changing our antifreeze when it lasts that long? The only thing people ever think about changing anymore is oil. Most "average" people never think about checking tranny fluid, power steering fluid, brake fluid.... why? Because it rarely needs changing. In my opinion, dex cool is fine, as long as you dont let the stuff get too old. My family and I have owned a lot of vehicles that took dex cool, and I have never seen this sludge buildup. Ive seen a lot of failed intake gaskets, but never had a bad radiator or anything like that. This is just my personal experience, so dont flame too hard.
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02:40 AM
tesmith66 Member
Posts: 7355 From: Jerseyville, IL Registered: Sep 2001
The big problem is this: If you don't change the green stuff like you're supposed to, it just sits there and keeps working. If you don't change the Dexcool like you're supposed to, it turns into mud and eats everything it touches. Been there, done that on numerous occasions. I gave Dexcool a chance, and it burned my a$$ several times.
------------------ 1986 SE 350 V8
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07:08 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Im still going to stick to my theory that most of you have problems because the dex cool has never been changed, and by the time you go the vehicle you owned it was already overdue for the coolant change. The stuff last 5 years or 100k miles, and most likely 5 years has come first.
By the time my Grand Am reached 100k miles or 5 years, the coolant had been changed at least 3 times because the Dexcool kept turning to mud. 2-3 years was the most I could expect from it.
The green antifreeze in my Fiero is older than that and still tests fine. (although I plan on changing it anyway this Winter)
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08:24 AM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
I can assure you that I NEVER mix coolants. So it is not that..., but I did like his take on it... Those that mix green and orange beg for trouble, though it sludges regardless that fact.
Did not know that about the higher acid content... that sounds alarming... maybe I should mix it with baking soda before I drink it?
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01:41 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6166 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
I can assure you that I NEVER mix coolants. So it is not that..., but I did like his take on it... Those that mix green and orange beg for trouble, though it sludges regardless that fact.
Did not know that about the higher acid content... that sounds alarming... maybe I should mix it with baking soda before I drink it?
I spoke to my lead LS V8 tech builder at work today and asked for his out look on Delcool. He said pretty much the same as the first . Do not mix it with the other types and that it can or eat intake or head gaskets.
The one thing he did add is you should change it in less than the 5 years recomended it is a non issue. He has been told by ??? that the coolant is not a good long term as advertised but it is good over the normal term of most anti freeze.
He has built many of the new GM V8 engines and also has owned many but is like me in never having a problem with any but has seen a few other who have had a problem.
I may call Smitty at Edlebrock tech and see what he knows as he has a lot of connections. If I keep asking in time I will find someone who know what is going on.
Here is what GM and Texaco has stated at the MACS 2001 Convention and Trade Show in Orlando. GM’s Jay Dankovich and Equilon Enterprises’ (Texaco) Stede Granger directed a 2-year study of thousands of DEX-COOL cooled vehicles. Armed with the results, they really didn’t have anything bad to say about the coolant. In fact, they strongly defended the product’s reputation. What they revealed to the audience is that specific models of GM vehicles have specific cooling system contamination problems. And essentially, that DEX-COOL is not the culprit! Their presentation started with a 14-minute video that is now being circulated to technicians at GM dealers nationwide. In the video, GM’s trainers succinctly described the problems that have been found and the corresponding corrective actions to be taken by technicians.
Suggestion. This video is a “must see” for all technicians considering themselves antifreeze/coolant experts. Without this information, your cooling system service knowledge of late model GM vehicles is severely limited. Seriously! Fortunately, you can buy the video for only $10 (plus S&H). Call MSX International of Auburn Hills, Michigan at 800-393-4831. Ask for the DEX-COOL Video: “Understanding Radiator Cap and Cooling System Contamination.” Part number: RADCAPK. Immediately following this article is a report on this training video by John Brunner, recently retired GM field service representative.
What was said at the presentation? Besides the video, Jay and Stede included their personal observations about the study. At the end, they fielded several questions from the audience. Here’s a recap of their entire presentation.
1. Keep the cooling system filled. In fact, fill the reservoir bottle to “Hot” level when the system is cold. Problems arise when a system’s coolant level is not maintained. (Fleet vehicles receiving regular maintenance, and with reservoirs kept slightly above normal, do not show signs of contamination. This even applies to the specific “problem” vehicles.)
2. The coolant problems found in this survey were caused by system contamination, and not due to the breakdown of DEX-COOL.
3. Check and keep the pressure cap clean and functioning. A contaminated and/or malfunctioning cap causes low coolant levels, which in turn causes overheating and a greater loss of coolant: the notorious vicious cycle. No matter what the vehicle, if the cooling system acts suspiciously, test the pressure cap.
4. On the ST vehicle models mentioned in the GM DEX-COOL video, you “must” replace all suspect radiator caps, especially those with a Drop-Center design, with a Stant Model 10230 or 11230 (Spring-Center type). (Just do it.)
5. Make sure that the coolant is at a 50-50 mix. Often, the flush water was not being removed from the engine block. Consequently, when a 50-50 mix is added to the system the resultant mixture could approach 30-70. Like any fluid that has been diluted beyond its recommended levels, the lowered level of inhibitors will not be able to protect the coolant system effectively. Low levels of inhibitors can cause pitting on aluminum surfaces and general corrosion of cooling system metals.
Left: Drop-center, “vented” radiator pressure cap. GM found this cap (like the Stant 10231) to be less helpful than a Spring-center cap (shown below) in controlling the formation of contaminants in the cooling system. If contamination forms, the debris fouls the valve and restricts its ability to seal. In turn, the coolant boils at a lower temperature. Coolant loss is accelerated and so is the accumulation of contaminants.
Left: Spring-center, sealed radiator pressure cap (like the Stant 10230). This is the preferred cap for GM applications that are more prone to accumulating cooling system contaminants.
6. A safe method of achieving a true 50-50 mix is to first determine the actual capacity of the system (use the owner’s manual). Then add 50% of “that” amount of undiluted DEX-COOL (or any coolant), and top it off with water.
7. Mixing a “green” coolant with DEX-COOL reduces the batch’s change interval to 2 years or 30,000 miles, but will otherwise cause no damage to the engine. In order to change back to DEX-COOL however, the cooling system must first be thoroughly drained and flushed.
8. Bacteria cannot live in a hot, Ethylene Glycol environment and is therefore not a threat to DEX-COOL.
9. While there have been intake gasket failures on CK Series, V8 powered vehicles for various reasons, DEX-COOL has never been found as a cause.
10. Use a refractometer to check the condition of DEX-COOL. Its inhibitor package is strong enough that if the batch still provides proper freeze protection, it is probably still providing proper corrosion protection as well.
11. DEX-COOL can handle the minerals in hard water better than silicated conventional chemistry coolants. Drinkable water is suitable for top off.
12. In ST Blazer applications where the radiator cap is mounted at an angle to the ground, the vehicle is more susceptible to radiator cap contamination and its related problems. The Stant 10230 is a wise choice for these vehicles. $$$
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07:29 PM
PFF
System Bot
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6166 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Sorry for the long post but here is a TSB on a 4.3 from GM.
Rust in Cooling System, Heater Inoperative, Blows Cold Air, Engine Overheats (Flush Cooling System) #99-06-02-012D Rust in Cooling System, Heater Inoperative, Blows Cold Air, Engine Overheats (Flush Cooling System) 1996-2000 Chevrolet and GMC S/T Models (Blazer, Jimmy, Sonoma, S10 Pickup)
1998-2000 GMC Envoy
1996-2000 Oldsmobile Bravada
with 4.3L V6 Engine (VINs W, X -- RPOs L35, LF6)
This bulletin is being revised to include additional model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 99-06-02-012C (Section 06 -- Engine).
Condition Some customers may comment that the heater is inoperative, blows cold air, engine may exhibit an overheat condition or the coolant reservoir has rust in it.
Cause Vehicles equipped with DEX-COOL® coolant, which may have been operated for extended periods of time with a low coolant level, usually in excess of 32,000 km (20,000 mi), may be susceptible to the formation of a rust-like material in the cooling system.
Correction Flush the cooling system using the repair procedures that follow.
Parts and equipment required/suggested for this correction are listed below.
1 each *Prestone® Flush and Fill Kit #AF-KITP U.S. (#00050 in Canada). This kit can be obtained from your local parts supplier and can be used on all vehicles repaired under this procedure. Save it after performing the repair, as it is reusable. 1 each *Prestone® Heavy Duty Cooling System Cleaner, GM P/N 12346500 - 1 per vehicle. This cleaner is in powder form and contains a neutralizer. Do not substitute other cleaners. The diluted cleaners that are available in liquid form are not recommended for this repair. 5.7 L (6 qt) of 100% (non-diluted) DEX-COOL® coolant (GM Spec 6277M). 1 each new thermostat, GM P/N 12563335. 2 each new radiator cap, GM P/N 15075565. 1 each *Prestone® yellow funnel. This funnel can also be obtained from your local parts supplier. It fits snugly into the radiator opening for an easy fill and is reusable. *We believe this source and their products to be reliable. There may be additional manufacturers of such products. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for the products from this firm or for any such items which may be available from other sources.
Important Verify the fuel level in the fuel tank. The fuel level should be above ¼ tank before this procedure is started.
As a precaution, verify the oil level in the crankcase. Add the amount required to bring the oil level into the normal range.
It is recommended the vehicle be placed in a position so that the following are available:
A sanitary sewer -- not a storm drain, etc A monoxivent system (if the outside temperature is less than 10°C (50°F)). Hot running water
Notice Due to the complexity of these procedures, the following repair steps must be strictly adhered to in order to achieve the intended results. Any deviation or substitution may result in sub-standard cleaning/flushing results or system damage.
Diagnostic Procedure Install the Scan Tool. This will allow monitoring of the coolant temperature throughout the procedure.
Caution As long as there is pressure in the cooling system, the temperature can be considerably higher than the boiling temperature of the solution in the radiator without causing the solution to boil. Removal of the radiator cap while the engine is hot and pressure is high will cause the solution to boil instantaneously - possibly with explosive force - spewing the solution over the engine, fenders and the person removing the cap. Under some conditions, the engine coolant is combustible. Important The installation of a NEW radiator cap at the beginning of this procedure and the second new cap at the end of the repair procedure is necessary in order for the correct pressure to be achieved and for the repair to be completed successfully. The radiator cap is NOT a good indicator of the general condition of the cooling system. Typically the underside of the radiator cap will exhibit a greater amount of contamination than the rest of the system. It is important to evaluate the condition of the cooling system by checking the following before beginning the repair procedure:
Remove the radiator cap. Install a new radiator cap, GM P/N 15075565. A properly operating radiator cap is essential for this procedure to work properly. Be sure to wipe off all radiator cap sealing surfaces prior to installation. Start the engine. Using a flashlight or lead light, look into the radiator. From the right side of the vehicle, peer into the radiator toward the left side of the vehicle. Observe the top three rows (or tubes) of the radiator. (It may be necessary to drain off some of the coolant to see the top three rows of the radiator). If it appears the coolant is able to flow through the third row down from the top, the vehicle should be repaired using Procedure A. If it appears the coolant is NOT able to flow through the third row down from the top, then the vehicle should be repaired using Procedure B. Stop the engine. Repair Procedure A & B
Important If available, use coolant exchanger Pro-Fill 42-75100-KM, Power Flush 211-07601/DEX (available through the GM Dealer Equipment program), or equivalent to evacuate the system of coolant. Follow the manufacturer's instructions for exchanging used coolant with new coolant. However, for this procedure, use water in place of new coolant. Be sure to exchange 1½ times the cooling system capacity of the vehicle with water. This will ensure that only water remains within the cooling system. Once the coolant has been displaced with water, drain the water from the radiator. If you are located within an area which regulates the disposal of used coolant (check with your local water treatment facility), all coolant and coolant/water mixture must be captured until the water runs clear of coolant. Use a clean 208 L (55 gal) drum or similar to contain the waste coolant. Refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 00-06-02-006 for information on coolant recycling and removal services.
Drain and properly dispose of the coolant.
Caution Any obstructions in the hoses to or from the coolant recovery bottle may cause over-pressurization of the cooling system. This over-pressurization could result in serious personal injury.
Inspect the following hoses in order to assure there are no obstructions and the coolant is able to flow freely: The hose to the coolant recovery bottle. The relief hose from the coolant recovery bottle. Disconnect both coolant hoses to the heater core from the engine. Back flush the heater core for 5 minutes after clear water is present. Pressurized water not to exceed 345 Kpa (50 psi), may be used. Reinstall the heater return hose to the engine. Install the radiator cap and properly tighten. Install the "T" from the flush and fill kit to a 25.4 cm (10 in) piece of 19 mm (¾ in) heater hose. Tighten the clamp. Install the hose to the engine. Tighten the clamp. Install the other end of the "T" in the heater core inlet hose. Tighten the clamp. Disconnect the upper radiator hose from the radiator. Properly position the hose, so the accessory drive belt or any pulley/belt cannot touch the hose. If you used coolant exchange equipment, disconnect it. Attach a garden hose to the "T" of the flush and fill kit. Turn on the water and back flush the cooling system for at least two minutes after the water runs clear. Start the engine and continue back flushing the cooling system for five additional minutes. Turn the engine "OFF". Turn the water "OFF". Re-attach the upper radiator hose to the radiator. Open the radiator drain and drain all water from the radiator. Remove the lower left water pump crossover bolt. This allows lowering the water level in the left side of the engine. After the water stops running from the water pump bolt hole, reinstall the bolt. Close the radiator drain. Mix the Prestone® Heavy Duty Cooling System Cleaner, GM P/N 12346500, in approximately 3 L (3 qt) of warm water. Pour the mixture into the radiator. Top off the system with plain water and reinstall the radiator cap. Run the engine at 1600 to 1800 RPM with the air conditioning in the maximum cool position. To achieve the 1600 to 1800 RPM, place a dime between the closed throttle stop and the screw. This screw should never be adjusted, under any circumstance. Its only purpose is to keep the throttle plate from sticking in the bore when the throttle is slammed shut. It is not a minimum idle (RPM) control adjustment screw.
Important It is imperative that all air pockets have been removed from the cooling system in order for the cleaning procedure to be effective.
Service Procedure A For Service Procedure A, the cleaner should be left in the system for three hours (after normal operating temperature of the cooling system has been achieved). Normal operating temperature is when the coolant temperature stabilizes around 98°C (200°F). The best results are obtained when the coolant temperature is between 98°C (200°F) and 110°C (230°F). DO NOT EXCEED 113°C (235°F). Use the Scan Tool to determine when this point has been reached. When this temperature has been reached, start the clock. Periodically (every twenty minutes or so), monitor the coolant temperature and engine during the three hour run time. A half hour has been built into the actual labor time to cover for the time spent monitoring the engine, etc.
In order to achieve a constant temperature of 98°C (200°F) to 110°C (230°F) during this procedure, maintain the idle speed, turn on the A/C or partially close the hood.
Service Procedure B For Service Procedure B, the cleaner should be left in the system for two and a half hours (after normal operating temperature of the cooling system has been achieved). Normal operating temperature is when the coolant temperature stabilizes around 98°C (200°F). The best results are obtained when the coolant temperature is between 98°C (200°F) and 110°C (230°F). DO NOT EXCEED 113°C (235°F). Use the Scan Tool to determine when this point has been reached. When this temperature has been reached, start the clock. Periodically (every twenty minutes or so), monitor the coolant temperature and engine during the two and a half hour run time. A half hour has been built into the actual labor time to cover for the time spent monitoring the engine, etc.
In order to achieve a constant temperature of 98°C (200°F) to 110°C (230°F) during this procedure, maintain the idle speed, turn on the A/C or partially close the hood. Important The vehicle should not be left idling outdoors when the ambient temperature is below 10°C (50°F). The flushing procedure relies on heat as a catalyst in order to be effective. Ambient temperatures below 10°C (50°F) do not allow sufficient cycling of the thermostat to effectively clean the cooling system.
Turn off the engine. Remove the dime from the closed throttle stop screw. Do NOT remove the radiator cap. Following the procedure listed below will assist you in draining the cooling system thoroughly. Place a drain pan under the radiator drain hose.
Caution The cooling system and coolant are hot and under pressure. Loosen only the radiator drain until the pressure has been released from the cooling system and follow the procedures exactly in this bulletin, using normal safety precautions to avoid being injured by the hot coolant mixture.
Loosen the radiator drain. Drain approximately 1 L (1 qt) of liquid from the system. After the pressure has been released from the cooling system, slowly loosen the radiator cap to the safety stop. Do not remove the cap (This releases the spring pressure on the secondary seal while retaining the primary seal to the top of the filler neck and will allow the coolant reservoir to be evacuated). When the coolant reservoir is empty, re-tighten the radiator cap fully. Remove the cap from the flush and fill "T". This will allow the coolant to be siphoned from the heater core and the engine block. When the water has stopped coming out of the radiator drain hose, close the radiator drain. Do not place the cap on the "T". Using Prestone® Heavy Duty Cooling System Cleaner, GM P/N 12346500, mix the neutralizer (from the bottom of the can) with approximately 3 L (3 qt) of warm (shower temperature) water.
Notice Do not put cold water into a hot engine as engine damage may occur.
Under no circumstances should the neutralizer be left in the cooling system for any longer than ten minutes once the vehicle has reached operating temperature (thermostat open). The neutralizer is corrosive to aluminum and will damage system components if it is left in the cooling system for longer than ten minutes.
Pour the mixture from the step above into the radiator. Completely refill the cooling system with warm to hot water through the "T". When the radiator is full, install the radiator cap to the safety catch. Continue to fill until the overflow reservoir is filled to the hot line on the reservoir. Remove the fill hose and install the cap on the "T" and the radiator fully.
Important It is imperative that all air pockets have been removed in order for the procedure to be effective.
Start the engine. After engine speed stabilizes, reinstall the dime between the closed throttle stop and the screw. With the A/C on, bring the cooling system back to normal operating temperature and follow the directions on the can. Turn off the engine. Remove the dime from the closed throttle stop and the screw.
Caution As long as there is pressure in the cooling system, the temperature can be considerably higher than the boiling temperature of the solution in the radiator without causing the solution to boil. Removal of the radiator cap while the engine is hot and pressure is high will cause the solution to boil instantaneously - possibly with explosive force - spewing the solution over the engine, fenders and the person removing the cap.
Drain the cooling system, following the procedure listed in Step 24 above. Do not close the radiator drain. Leave it open. Disconnect the upper radiator hose from the radiator. Properly position the hose, so the accessory drive belt or any pulley/belt cannot touch the hose. Attach a garden hose to the "T" of the flush and fill kit. Turn on the water and back flush the cooling system for at least two minutes after the water runs clear. Start the engine and continue back flushing the cooling system for five additional minutes. Turn the engine "OFF". Turn the water "OFF". Close the radiator drain.
Important If the repair is a Procedure A, go to Step 40.
If the repair is a Procedure B, remove the radiator and have it recorded and steam clean the end tanks. After reinstalling the radiator, continue to Step 40.
Remove the air cleaner housing and tube assembly from the throttle body. Remove the two nuts holding the throttle cable bracket to the throttle body and position the bracket and the cables out of the way. Remove the thermostat. Remove the previously installed flush kit "T" and hose. Save for future use on other vehicles. Install the heater inlet hose to the intake manifold and secure with the original spring clamp. Inspect the thermostat opening and cover for foreign material. Clean if necessary. Remove the left lower water pump crossover bolt to drain the left side of the block and the left cylinder head. Install sealant to the bolt threads, using GM P/N 12346004 (Canada GM P/N 10953480), or equivalent and reinstall the water pump crossover bolt. Tighten Tighten the bolt to 41 N·m (30 lb ft).
If available, use coolant exchanger Pro-Fill, Power Flush, or equivalent to fill the system with 50/50 DEX-COOL® coolant. If a coolant exchanger is not available, proceed to the next step now. Follow the manufacturer's instructions for system fill/coolant exchange. If you are using coolant exchange equipment, you will need to install a new thermostat, GM P/N 12563335 and top off the system with clean drinkable water prior to exchanging. After exchanging, install the upper radiator hose and clean out the coolant recovery bottle. Proceed to Step 56. Pour 5.6784 L (6 qts) of 100% (not pre-mixed) DEX-COOL® coolant into a clean container. Using a clean funnel, pour as much of the 100% DEX-COOL® coolant that you can into the engine through the thermostat opening. Install a new thermostat, GM P/N 12563335. Tighten Tighten the bolt to the specified torque of 19 N·m (14 lb ft).
Hold the upper radiator hose in the straight up position and pour 0.473 L (1 pint) of the 100% DEX-COOL® coolant into the hose. Install the upper radiator hose to the radiator and properly position the clamp. Flush the coolant recovery bottle thoroughly. Complete the fill of the cooling system with the balance of the 5.7 L (6 qt) of 100% DEX-COOL® coolant and top off with plain water. If the water is not drinkable, do not use. Water must be clean and fresh.
Important The second new radiator cap must be installed at this point of the procedure. It is possible that small contaminants may have become lodged in portions of the first cap during the cleaning procedure.
Clean the radiator cap sealing surfaces on the radiator. Install the radiator cap, GM P/N 15075565.
Important It is imperative that all air pockets have been removed in order for the cooling system to function properly.
Run the engine to operating temperature with the air conditioning in the maximum cool position for ten minutes.
Caution As long as there is pressure in the cooling system, the temperature can be considerably higher than the boiling temperature of the solution in the radiator without causing the solution to boil. Removal of the radiator cap while the engine is hot and pressure is high will cause the solution to boil instantaneously - possibly with explosive force - spewing the solution over the engine, fenders and the person removing the cap. Under some conditions, the engine coolant is combustible.
Turn the engine "OFF" and let it cool. Check the coolant concentration for a 50/50 mix, using refractometer J 26568 (Centigrade scale) or J 23688 (Fahrenheit scale). Follow the manufacturer's directions for using the coolant tester. Unless your coolant tester has a provision for temperature correction, it is imperative that the correct coolant temperature is achieved when testing the coolant. If the coolant is warmer or cooler, the reading may be incorrect. Top off the radiator and fill the coolant recovery bottle to 2.54 cm (1 in) above the full hot mark on the coolant reservoir. Add the appropriate coolant mixture to come to a 50/50 mix of the DEX-COOL® coolant.
Important To assure intended system performance, inform the customer that the cooling system MUST be maintained in a completely full condition.
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07:31 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6166 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
I have read a lot of complaints and other post from owners.
One idea I have found is some believe the gaskets are failing and letting the coolant drop and then it sludges up. Most are failed intakes and some are failed head gaskets. Kind of like the chicken and the egg. Which came first the failed gasket or the failed coolant.
Because of the problem not hitting every car I starting to think it is a condition the coolant is exposed to and low coolant may be plausable. The Dex Cool may be overly sensitive to adverse conditions that Prestone is not. With so many people with low tire pressure it is resonable to think some drive with low coolant as long as the car is not over heating. The fluid is not physically checked so the low coolant is not found and air is in the system.
We might want to call Myth Busters on this one.
I am starting to thing that Dex Cool is a good coolant but is very unforgiving if conditions are not exactly correct. This is where I thing GM is failing in not being upfront and addressing better how to use the product or having it changed to be more forgiving. It is kind of line having tires that run great at 35 PSI but will blow out if they get to 30 PSI.
I know this info has not solved the problem but I hope it can help someone.
Again sorry for taking up so much space!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-20-2007).]
I think it can be a very bad idea to buy the "mix with everything" and some aftermarket brands of "dex-cool". How many that have experienced problems with dexcool after a flush went to the GM dealership to buy your coolant or did you just buy the cheapest one with the word dex-cool on it? You cant cheap out or cut corners with this stuff, I really do think its good stuff you just cant cheap out.
Jason
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08:36 PM
Dec 24th, 2007
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
Well, my car is currently up in the air right now getting a brake overhaul... and I figured while it was all jacked up... to just go ahead and perfrom a coolant flush. I went and bought one of those bitchin' reverse-the-flow Prestone flush kits that the previous poster mentioned in his Dex-Cool research TSB. It was cheap!... like $3.99, and totally reusable.
I pulled the radiator... and dude... I have orange rocks in my tank. So orange mud in the overflow bottle and orange pebbles that I can shake out of my radiator. If I shake them all out, and just kinda knock the radiator on the ground... I get more pebbles. Not cool.
I called a few local radiator shops, and they would charge $50-$60 to vat and rod out my radiator... but I don't trust them to seal the plastic tanks up as good as the big machine that did it on the assembly line 20 years ago.
A shop is ordering me a new one in, brand ARS (maybe ARC?),... said it was a VERY good brand... for $117. I am very impressed with how well the factory Delco unit held up, and I regret losing a part that actually had the assembly date tatoo'd on it. 11/17/87
Gonna do the reverse flush thing with a Prestone flusher, and then do it again with bleach. Then install the new radiator. I tore up my rubber flap that sits atop the radiator housing, but called Rodeny, and he had a few that he never marketed, so I got a new one of those coming in.
Dex-Cool is poison people. Don't drink it, Don't put it in your car.
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01:32 PM
Dec 26th, 2007
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
The Mercedes coolant is $20.00 a gallon. I buy it for $10.00
After going to the local parts store... the Prestone "Sir-Mix-with-anything-A-Lot" coolant was $13.50 a gallon.
I called my local Mercedes dealer, and it was $19.99 a gallon. Then it occurred to me that Amsoil sells antifreeze that they supposedly brew up in house... At my dealership cost it is $20.20, and part of that will go to my commission check..., so that is the route I am going to go.
(NOTE: not a commercial)
Here's the link on the Amsoil coolant... 2 things intrigued me... Almost one of those things like you think... to good to be true... or NO fluid can do that...
"Stops Leaks --- AMSOIL Antifreeze & Coolant adheres to metal. It self-seals hairline cracks in welds and seams to prevent leaks, without additional stop-leak products or fibrous materials.
Prevents Metallic Corrosion --- Independent tests reveal AMSOIL Antifreeze & Engine Coolant surpassed standards for metallic corrosion. It plates metal to protect even when exposed to acids and salt spray. Standard allowances for loss in aluminum and solder are less than 60 mg. AMSOIL Antifreeze & Engine Coolant lost 0 mg in aluminum and less than 6 mg in solder."
Personally, I am not so sure I WANT my coolant to adhere to metal… It seems to me like that is what got me into trouble in the first place!
edit -- to fix link
[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 12-26-2007).]
My 66 Dodge with only 26K, has been sitting for years inside a garage. I have no reason to suspect the anti freeze has ever been changed. Its still green, and still nearly full. Runs fine, stays cool and no crap in it and still tests good to -25*. Wonder what Dexcool looks like after 40 years ??
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 12-27-2007).]
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06:40 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by hyperv6: 6. A safe method of achieving a true 50-50 mix is to first determine the actual capacity of the system (use the owner’s manual). Then add 50% of “that” amount of undiluted DEX-COOL (or any coolant), and top it off with water.
$$$
The best way to get a proper50/50 mix is to mix your fluid first so all you have is 50/50 fluid and then start refilling your car. Also when flushing at home you cannot get it all out, if you flush with your garden hose you will usually have some of that garden hose water in the engine taking up some of your capacity.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-27-2007).]
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10:28 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by hyperv6: As for cooling, water is your best bet to keep a engine cool. Most race teams want and use the best thing for cooling and it is just plain old water.
As for road cars they have to rely on keeping things good in the engine so we have rust inhibitors and other aditives to protect the engine. Also you have to protect from cold and freezing. A 50/50 of the green stuff is recomended as the best mix. If you go 100% it can gel at extreem cold. {I have never seen this but those in Canada might comment?] Since road cars do not drain fluid or change engines like racers they need protection with antifreeze for long term use.
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A 50/50 mix lowers the freezing point and raises the boiling point. There is a graph on the back of most jugs of antifreeze/coolant that shows an estimate of the ratio needed to provide the protection you desire. Just wanted to note here no one should run straight water in their daily driver.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-27-2007).]
It seems to me that the dex-cool stuff is very questionable. The cost and high possibility of problems rule it out. Old fashion prestone coolant is tried and true. It is also the cheapest alternative.
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04:33 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
A 50/50 mix lowers the freezing point and raises the boiling point. There is a graph on the back of most jugs of antifreeze/coolant that shows an estimate of the ratio needed to provide the protection you desire. Just wanted to note here no one should run straight water in their daily driver.
Do they even sell straight anti-freeze anymore? Last time I looked in the store all I could find was 50/50. Kind of a rip-off paing for half water but it does elliminate trying to mix to the proper ratio.
I just bought some "dex cool" straight antifreeze at Advance Auto for 13 bucks. The 50/50 was 11 bucks, what a rip off. I have only been able to find one aftermarket brand that GM "certifies" as a Dex cool substite but cant remember the name. They sell it at Advance Auto.
Jason
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07:45 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6166 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
The best way to get a proper50/50 mix is to mix your fluid first so all you have is 50/50 fluid and then start refilling your car. Also when flushing at home you cannot get it all out, if you flush with your garden hose you will usually have some of that garden hose water in the engine taking up some of your capacity.
If you flush it at home you can still remove the block pugs in many engines yet and get 90%+ of the fluid out.. Too few people know about block plugs or can't get to them or remove them easily. I installed petcocks in my old Chevys to make it easier to drain for a quick tear down.
Even if you premix you still have to factor in what my still be inside. If anything it is a little better to get just little extra anti freeze in vs not enough as too little will freeze at a higher temp when too little will gel at too low. Too low is below -30 degrees that the few of us south of the great white north seldom see.
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08:01 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6166 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
A 50/50 mix lowers the freezing point and raises the boiling point. There is a graph on the back of most jugs of antifreeze/coolant that shows an estimate of the ratio needed to provide the protection you desire. Just wanted to note here no one should run straight water in their daily driver.
Antifreeze will help on freezing point but it is little help on raising boiing point. I know they like to advertise that but the pressureized system has more to do with raising the boiling point.
Most NASCAR, IRL, ALMS, IMSA and many other series use just straight water as it is the most efficent cooling and they do not need to worry about freezing or any other long term needs as the engines are in a short term use.
They do so many things to keep the engines as cool as they can as it will make more power so the only aditives they may use are things like Red Line Water Wetter that helps with the transfer of heat and not raise any boiling points. It breaks down the water tension to make it more able to transfer the heat.
I learned this through working with Griffen, Be Cool, Fluiddyne, Howe, Roush and other performance radiator companies that I sell at work. We sell a lot of radiators and other cooling items and have I have learned a few of their trick over the years.
Still it is only recomended to use Antifreez in a steet car due to the anti rust aditives as well as the lubricant quality of the fluids. Plus it is a pain to replace freeze plugs or a block after it freezes up when you forget to add anti freeze.
If Preston had any advantage in keeping things cooler or transfer heat any better they would be using it to gain any HP they can.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-27-2007).]
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08:16 PM
Mar 19th, 2008
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
I haven't bothered to read any of the posts except for the first one. Dexcool is a joke. According to Dorais Chevy in Wabash, In Dexcool is worthless. Shortly after I bought my '96 GMC Jimmy (a few years ago), I brought it to the dealership to have the coolant system flushed. Here's what an authentic dealership told me. One, Dexcool is only good for 50k miles at best (not the 100k miles GM says). Two, if you get ANY air in the system, you end up with that Mississippi mud stuff. Three, once you get the mud in your system, it's a b***h to get it all out. Four, their recommendation was the good old green stuff your grand dad used. They said it's much more forgiving and lasts at least as long as the orange junk. (And it's cheaper, too.) They filled my system with the green stuff and I never had any trouble out of it.
Dex cool get's it's bad rap because GM has been selling cars with faulty gaskets. the 3400 is the most used engine in their fleet. from 1999 to 2004 a large number of 3400 engines had bad intake gaskets or head gaskets contaminating the dexcool with oil and combustion gases. this causes the dex cool to start turning to sludge fast.
Many other engines had crappy gaskets causing the same failures with dexcool. Some started by blaming it for eating away the gaskets, but more research has shows that the gaskets were garbage to begin with, and in many instances the intake or heads were warped when they went on at the mexico or canadian assembly plant.
Blame GM's crappy quality control, not dexcool. I still will not run it. you NEED to flush your cooling system every 24-36 months. Just like your brake fluid, tranny fluid, etc....
Even more reason not to use DexCool. Maybe the problem was caused by a leaking gasket, but the DexCool is what turned to sludge. Green antifreeze doesn't exhibit that problem. It's more forgiving of contamination. That's a major plus for green, because we all know cars leak. You get air in the cooling system. It happens.
Dex cool get's it's bad rap because GM has been selling cars with faulty gaskets. the 3400 is the most used engine in their fleet. from 1999 to 2004 a large number of 3400 engines had bad intake gaskets or head gaskets contaminating the dexcool with oil and combustion gases. this causes the dex cool to start turning to sludge fast.
Many other engines had crappy gaskets causing the same failures with dexcool. Some started by blaming it for eating away the gaskets, but more research has shows that the gaskets were garbage to begin with, and in many instances the intake or heads were warped when they went on at the mexico or canadian assembly plant.
Blame GM's crappy quality control, not dexcool. I still will not run it. you NEED to flush your cooling system every 24-36 months. Just like your brake fluid, tranny fluid, etc....
I'm not a fan of Dexcool either, but after replacing lots of intake gaskets on conventional green and dexcool engines, I'm tending to blame some of the problems on cheap, crappy gaskets too.
The new GM factory replacement intake gaskets for 3800's are now metal, not plastic.
I have seen plenty of green coolant look like mud, and I've seen Dexcool coolant look fine after many miles and years.
put some amsoil in there to remove all the dexcool
Just start the engine with a garden hose in the rad cap WITH water on, WITH the drain open, give it 5-10 minutes then shut off everything and let it finish draining, close that off and fill with some cat killing green stuff
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09:42 AM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
Yup, my mechanic blamed the faulty gaskets, not Dexcool. I am not a fan of Dexcool, but it did not cause the headgasket and three intake gasket leaks. The problem was the gaskets. The mechanic said the new gasket from Fel-pro is supposed to be the end-all for this problem.... right.. I am saving up another $500 for the next intake gasket failure.
J.
quote
Originally posted by timgray:
Dex cool get's it's bad rap because GM has been selling cars with faulty gaskets. the 3400 is the most used engine in their fleet. from 1999 to 2004 a large number of 3400 engines had bad intake gaskets or head gaskets contaminating the dexcool with oil and combustion gases. this causes the dex cool to start turning to sludge fast.
Many other engines had crappy gaskets causing the same failures with dexcool. Some started by blaming it for eating away the gaskets, but more research has shows that the gaskets were garbage to begin with, and in many instances the intake or heads were warped when they went on at the mexico or canadian assembly plant.
Blame GM's crappy quality control, not dexcool. I still will not run it. you NEED to flush your cooling system every 24-36 months. Just like your brake fluid, tranny fluid, etc....
I have seen the "RED" coolent work in only one type of vehicle...Large trucks with a CAT straight six. But the bottle does not say DexCool...it only say's extended life coolent. Bottle came straight from the dealer.
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10:50 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
I'm getting ready to replace the thermostat in my Malibu, and it's filled with the Dexcool - and the stuff is pretty brown looking. I was planning on just re-filling with the dexcool. but - boy - y'all got me scared.
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11:17 AM
Mar 21st, 2008
steve308 Member
Posts: 4054 From: Stafford VA Registered: Jan 2008
If it came from the factory with GREEN---use GREEN. If if came with DEX -- Don't trust the 5 year! check it often & keep it full - If you change away from Green --- suggest a global (Yellow) antifreeze. If you change you must flush - flush- flush and then flush again! Dex contaminates easily and may "jell" if mixed with green.
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07:24 PM
Foxy Fiero13 Member
Posts: 1496 From: racine,wisconsin,usa Registered: Mar 2008
man b4 i changed my water pump i had to have went threw like 10 gallons of antifreeze since november i use the peak stuff it seems to last alot longer then anything else i used and its cheaper then most of it (buy it at sam's club)
