Considering engine swaps for my 88GT 5 speed manual:
3.4L DOHC 5 speed manual = 210hp 3.8L V6 with the supercharger series II === But smog llegal only in "automatic" in California. - 260hp ( There's no way that I would change my manual to an automatic. Stick "IS" the way to go for this little go-cart...)
Guess what I found...
Brand new 3900 NA (3.9L) with a 6 speed manual FWD. It's for the new G6's from Pontiac.
240hp @6000 rpm and 241lbs of torque @2800 rpm
Question?????
WILL THIS WORK? I know with the new technology there is a lot of wiring for sensors and what not, new computer, maybe new mounts, exhaust etc....
If someone can figure out the details, many AAAA+++++ from all that is interested. I'm ready now, money in hand ready for the swap. I'll be investigating this also.
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07:19 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
If you can get past the electronics, it should work beautifully. The 3.9 is based on the 2.8 in the Fiero. It *may* even use some of the same engine mount locations. I know the 3.4 DOHC uses the 88 front engine mount in an 88 chassis. Not sure about later versions of the 60° V6.
Archie has kits for the 6-speed with a 2.8. You won't need anything to adapt the engine and transmission, but his parts should cover shifter, shift cables, and axles.
I'm very interested in seeing what it takes for this swap. The 3.9 is much lighter than the all cast iron 3800SC, so if you're not planning to do a lot of mods to a 3800SC, this could be a great alternative.
I went to the dealer just for kicks and found out that the G6 is not on the market yet but it will be in 2008. The parts dept. has the engine on their database but is limited on info.
I also think this engine would be a great alternative and being naturally aspirated the heat issue is not there. I've talk to WCF on this but they haven't heard or investigated anything on it yet. I kind of gave him an FYI "HINT"... Maybe they'll try to mock up something in the future when it's available to work out some more kinks.
That's great about archie's piece. ONE DOWN.... many to go!
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09:07 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I looked into this swap (3900/six speed) about a year ago, at that time, no one had the electronics figured out yet. Hope you're able to Get R Done. If so, let us know.
------------------ Ron Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way. If you want to burn our flag, you have the right. Just wrap yourself in it just prior to dousing it with gas and lighting the match.
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09:36 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Lloyd at Fast Fieros might be a good source. He does a lot of OBDII work, and has experience with many different types of recent engines. I don't believe he's looked at the 3.9 yet, but he may be able to offer some info.
Do you think they'll go together? Actually I'm probably an idiot because the two cars didn't come that way so it wouldn't pass Bar for the smog laws. Just for future refrence. I think the G6 gets the 233hp motor but malibu and impalla have the 240hp motorwith the factor tuning. If I could get the cars computer and smog hook ups, sensors etc..?
Just thinking.. I'll talk to Lyod about how to go about the correct way. Thanks
P.S. --- One slap in the face for that dealer dude. I'm surprised that the parts dept didn't any other applications to offer.
[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 08-08-2007).]
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10:40 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
The G6 GTP is 240 HP. I believe the G6 GTP convertible gets the lower HP engine. Also, check http://www.car-part.com and you might be able to find a complete drivetrain with electronics.
I've also seen plenty of F40 (6-speed) transmissions sell for under $500 on Ebay, with some Buy-It-Now for around $350. It appears there was a gearing change between 2006 and 2007, so right now there is a glut of new and used 2006 F40 transmissions available. Once they're gone, expect the prices to go up dramatically (could be $1000+ for a used tranny).
Is the wiring the only thing holding you back? If you pull all the wiring out of the donor car and get the service manual wiring diagrams it shouldn't be all that difficult. Most likely it will be a matter of finding a few hot wires, a few grounds, and it will fire right up. Your best bet is to buy a whole wreck so you have everything you need. When you start with a running motor, it is a piece of cake.
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12:08 AM
Mar 10th, 2008
SAFASTRO Member
Posts: 604 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Nov 2006
So....has anyone figured out the wiring yet for the 3.9??
About a month or so ago, I had a friend offer me his 3.5 from a 2006-7? Malibu because he was swapping in a crate 3.9. He then figured out that a 3.9 is basically the same engine as the 3.5, just the top end is different. So.......to make a long story short.......he swapped the top end out to make his 3.5 a 3.9, and now has no use for the crate motor he has kickin in his garage. Well......now he's giving me his 3.9 crate motor with a 4t65e tranny all hooked up and ready to go......plug and play!!! That's right.....GIVING IT TO ME......CRATE MOTOR........AND TRANNY!!!!!!
So I should be picking it up this weekend if all goes as planned. I NEED HELP!!!!!
So....has anyone figured out the wiring yet for the 3.9??
About a month or so ago, I had a friend offer me his 3.5 from a 2006-7? Malibu because he was swapping in a crate 3.9. He then figured out that a 3.9 is basically the same engine as the 3.5, just the top end is different. So.......to make a long story short.......he swapped the top end out to make his 3.5 a 3.9, and now has no use for the crate motor he has kickin in his garage. Well......now he's giving me his 3.9 crate motor with a 4t65e tranny all hooked up and ready to go......plug and play!!! That's right.....GIVING IT TO ME......CRATE MOTOR........AND TRANNY!!!!!!
So I should be picking it up this weekend if all goes as planned. I NEED HELP!!!!!
Your friend is a fool, but don't tell him I said that until you have your 3.9 in your possession.
You can't change engine displacement by switching heads. He has a 3.5l engine with a 3.9 top end. You will have a 3.9l with 3.5 heads. I don't have any first hand knowledge of either engine, so I don't have any advise for installing it, though I would assume a 3.5l PCM will control it and the transmission just fine, you should only have to bypass the antitheft system.
I do know that joseph upson had to make a new crank trigger wheel to work with the '7730 because the 3.9 uses a different style of sensor than the 3.x the '7730 was used on.
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12:21 AM
merlot566jka Member
Posts: 676 From: Norman, Oklahoma Registered: Jun 2007
Talk to joseph upson I am pretty sure you can control a 3900 with a 7730 ecm and a custom tune.
No, you can't do that. He is in California, the entire engine and drivetrain and all emissions systems including the ECM must be installed in the Fiero unmodified. It must remain with the stock ECM. You technically can't even mod the chip. They do check that the ECM looks right, has the right part number, and scans correctly.
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08:40 PM
merlot566jka Member
Posts: 676 From: Norman, Oklahoma Registered: Jun 2007
Well "we" in CA really need to know the deal on this. Because I want to find something that works and soon. I could live with that combination and the turbo it someday.
What's the latest on this, or should I be the guinny pig?
Anyone call Bar yet to ask questions.
Anyone talk to lloyd at fast fieros?
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09:59 PM
PFF
System Bot
Mr.PBody Member
Posts: 3172 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Registered: Oct 2006
No, you can't do that. He is in California, the entire engine and drivetrain and all emissions systems including the ECM must be installed in the Fiero unmodified. It must remain with the stock ECM. You technically can't even mod the chip. They do check that the ECM looks right, has the right part number, and scans correctly.
No HE can't do it, you can however run the 3900 on a 7730, joseph did it, and so did merlotjk, except he runs a 3500. Cali sucks, just move
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10:01 PM
Mar 12th, 2008
SAFASTRO Member
Posts: 604 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Nov 2006
WOW!!!! Sucks to be in Cali.......glad I'm in Calgary!! No emissions here.......yet! So I can run my 3900 with a modded 7730 ECM and crank trigger sensor, and axle swap? What parts should I be collecting for this swap other than those 3 things?
I think I've decided to rebuild the 2.8 even though the main idea was to keep the numbers matching engine stock and throw in another. I realize from all the bad rep about the 2.8, why not mod the old 2.8 into a screaming 2008 technology muscle....LOL....People will object that this motor is not even worth it but I've brought the rest of the car into todays standards why not the engine.
.... I've seen configurations for the 3.1L stroker kit bored around .030- .040 over, ported and polished heads, 1 3/4" headers, roller rockers 1.6, forged pistons with a 12cc cut for compression that make near 180hp. I'm sure that there was a little more to it but it has been done. I figure to get this motor smog legal I'll have to put the stock exhaust and air box on but the look and ecm will be exactly the same) After --- build a crossover pipe to meet the new headers with a flange for a T3/T4 turbo pushing 8-10psi. Now I'm lookin at 240-250hp at least. I also plan to intercool it and I have an 85 computer w/knock sensor.. Of course, tuning it will help. The main objective with the turbo is hp but I need it to bolt on an bolt off with adjusting the computer only for smog.
I'm surprised that there is only 1 person, Design 1, that makes turbo kits. Where is everyone? And surely a better price than 4 to 5Gs......
Hook us up turbo mechanics out there!!!!
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05:36 PM
merlot566jka Member
Posts: 676 From: Norman, Oklahoma Registered: Jun 2007
i should have around 250 at the wheels with the 3500, and i spent $150 on my engine. about $500 in extras. it took me one 2.8, three 3.4 (iron heads) and a bunch of research to realize the iron head is a waste of time. but it was fun blowing them up.
think about your overall goals, 2008 technology?? your not getting there with iron heads, low CR, pushrod engines (face it there meeting thier doom!), and 1950's designed engines (look at the sae paper for the 2.8, yikes!!)
imagine 10lbs of boost on the 3500....450 hp?
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07:45 PM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
I think I've decided to rebuild the 2.8 even though the main idea was to keep the numbers matching engine stock and throw in another. I realize from all the bad rep about the 2.8, why not mod the old 2.8 into a screaming 2008 technology muscle....LOL....People will object that this motor is not even worth it but I've brought the rest of the car into todays standards why not the engine.
You can't bring the engine to today's standards because the parts you can't replace are just too old :-P. Why not do a 3.4 DOHC swap or a late 60*V6 swap? The 3900 swap is possible, its just a challenge because of the wiring. OBDII swaps have been done and passed smog in California. Look at Rickady's car for example.
quote
.... I've seen configurations for the 3.1L stroker kit bored around .030- .040 over, ported and polished heads, 1 3/4" headers, roller rockers 1.6, forged pistons with a 12cc cut for compression that make near 180hp. I'm sure that there was a little more to it but it has been done. I figure to get this motor smog legal I'll have to put the stock exhaust and air box on but the look and ecm will be exactly the same) After --- build a crossover pipe to meet the new headers with a flange for a T3/T4 turbo pushing 8-10psi. Now I'm lookin at 240-250hp at least. I also plan to intercool it and I have an 85 computer w/knock sensor.. Of course, tuning it will help. The main objective with the turbo is hp but I need it to bolt on an bolt off with adjusting the computer only for smog.
I'm surprised that there is only 1 person, Design 1, that makes turbo kits. Where is everyone? And surely a better price than 4 to 5Gs......
Hook us up turbo mechanics out there!!!!
WCF can make a kit; talk to Chris at the BBQ. Otherwise, you can get below the $4k-5k price by building it yourself..
I don't want to store a block. I promised myself that everything that comes off or out of the car I keep.
I realize it is an old engine..... I'm talking the extras inside the block to bring the technology up - state of the art race proven parts.. I know that the push rod is not good for a turbo either. I just want to have a little more fun than now. That's why I say 8 - 10 psi of boost to keep things in check. I would love the 3.4 DOHC but I just don't want to deal with cali anymore. Going through the troubles.
I'm bummed that I won't make the BBQ. I'll be in Vegas doing birthdays this weekend. I know chris would help and I'm sure some others.... I'll be back on this topic when the time comes ----after October (smog time)
Thanks for all the input and help
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11:57 AM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
I don't want to store a block. I promised myself that everything that comes off or out of the car I keep.
I realize it is an old engine..... I'm talking the extras inside the block to bring the technology up - state of the art race proven parts.. I know that the push rod is not good for a turbo either. I just want to have a little more fun than now. That's why I say 8 - 10 psi of boost to keep things in check. I would love the 3.4 DOHC but I just don't want to deal with cali anymore. Going through the troubles.
With a turbo pushrod 2.8/3.1/3.4 you can make the same power as a stock 3.4 DOHC does reliably. It will be easier to swap out stuff for smog... but with the 3.4 DOHC you don't have to swap out anything. Once you pass the BAR inspection (which is just a glorified smog test in itself) you can just smog it normally every two years. I have personally passed a 3.4 DOHC with 5-speed through smog in California. It's not hard at all. Blue Shift has done the same. TK has passed multiple 3.4 DOHC swaps through BAR.
quote
I'm bummed that I won't make the BBQ. I'll be in Vegas doing birthdays this weekend. I know chris would help and I'm sure some others.... I'll be back on this topic when the time comes ----after October (smog time)
That's too bad.. there will be another one in the summertime though, and there's always WestFest. The WCF folks will probably be there this year.
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02:29 PM
kevin Member
Posts: 2722 From: Elk Grove, CA USA Registered: Jan 2000
Becasue I also live in Claifornia, the land of the "Smog Nazis" (sic), I am restricted from exploring all avenues of increased efficiency as a trade off for 'clean air'. I am forcing myself from not editorializing on this subject, for fearing of burning up Pennocks Forums web portal. That being understood, why can't one build the engine of their choice, drive the stink out of it, and then when the SMOG time arrives, simply switch back to a clean stock engines (i.e. drop cradle and R &R ). Despite the work involved, is this feasable? Just asking.
Cordially, Kevin
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02:56 PM
PFF
System Bot
blkpearl Member
Posts: 367 From: SanDog,CA,US Registered: Oct 2004
Yeah, it's feasable but what are you going to do when you get pulled over for driving the stink out of it?
If the cop knows anything about cars and asks to see you're engine it's going to be a fine in the thousands, and possibly jail time. It's not worth the risk.
Unless you make the car off road use only and trailor it to Willow Springs or something.
I just got off the phone with a CARB advisor.
Here's the deal. This 3900 swap will be a go in CA. The G6 tranny will work with that engine. I finally learned (and the guy was completely honest) that the "Guidlines" for swaps are vague intentionally. It's because of so many swaps and different combinations they did not want it to written in stone. That's why a referee has some leeway in passing the swap in front of them.
Now HERE is what's important. He said the exhaust has got to be a stock to the cat as possible. Period. They will fail custom headers and exhaust work that is intentionally fabbed to either make more power than it should stock or an exhaust that is abnormal. Abnormal like a rear exit exhaust becoming a side pipe exhaust. Save that stuff for after you pass, or never.
Second the drivetrain must communicate PROPERLY with the ECM. If the donor car had a skip shift yours better have skip shift etc.. They most likely but not always will fail a car if the ECM from the donor car has been hacked/reprogrammed to allow these things to either not work, or work according to what the Fiero needed it to. Same goes with the Speedo, Tach, AND Gear ratio. All performance stuff must be done after you get your CARB cert.
Last They prefer in breading. If you swap GM to GM, Dodge-Dodge and the list goes on. You MAY say swap a VW to a Pontiac technically it's legal, but here's the deal. Your already under a microscope with the thing as it is, WHY put yourself under an electron microscope. It just makes it that much harder when it's already hard as it is.
I mentioned that WCF has their 3800 swap CARB certified. He said be wise and go to them Because then you don't get the car inspected, just smogged. If the smog place asks questions point to the CARB sticker and tell them thankyou very much but go smog my 98 Grand Prix.
This should answer alot of questions.
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04:37 PM
kevin Member
Posts: 2722 From: Elk Grove, CA USA Registered: Jan 2000
Thanks for the CARB info. I still like my idea. If I do get pulled over, I would suspect it is becasue I was doing some kind of exhibitionist type driving. If I was just speeding on a freeway, it is not likely he will scutinize the car, unless I was acting like a big d*ck. Which I am not. Anyway, I could also plead that I was on my way to the CARB station when you pulled me over. This would allow some time extension to change the engine back to stock. Fooled them again. Right? Your thoughts...
Originally posted by blkpearl: I mentioned that WCF has their 3800 swap CARB certified. He said be wise and go to them Because then you don't get the car inspected, just smogged. If the smog place asks questions point to the CARB sticker and tell them thankyou very much but go smog my 98 Grand Prix.
This reminds me... WCF was inquiring CARB about getting the 3800 SC swap certified with a manual transmission. I'm not sure what ever came of that. I'll see if I can find out at the WCF BBQ on Saturday.
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05:51 PM
kevin Member
Posts: 2722 From: Elk Grove, CA USA Registered: Jan 2000
Steve, Though I will not make the BBQ, let me know what you find out from Chris. By the way, will you be at Solvang? I think the 2.8SC 5-sp. woud be the perfect set up
Cordially, Kevin kevin.sullivan@horacemann.com
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06:01 PM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
Sadly, I can't make it to WestFest in Solvang. I'm going to be out of the state that week :-(. I will try to make it to the Coast Run in the Fall with my car.
