This question is about a Fiero headlight motor but my above average I.Q has found a slightly different use for the motor thus I am posting my question here and not in the forum. I am a self taught inventer and all around handy man so when I bought my Fiero I immediatly saw that the second headlight motor supplied with the car had a variety of aplications. The aplication that really drew attention was the possability that I could use the motor to electronically pop the hood on my primary veichle (a 1997 Ford Taurus). After 3 months designing, engineering, and installing the new system it continued to work flawlessly for the next year and a half. However now that I now the system is reliable I want to correct the defect that the headlight motor had to begin with so the system can be marketable. This defect is the fact that all the relays and limit switch were faulty. When designing the Power Hood Release system I removed the faulty limit switch and made use of the second positive wire (also the one used in reversing the headlights when installed in the Fiero properly). When all tests were finished I found that I could apply more amprage when opening the hood (it was originaly thought I needed more foot pounds of torque to open the hood thus needed more power later though this proved not necessary) if I divided the high ampridge (30 amps) between 2 smaller gauge wires (that were once the 2 positives going into the motor). There was a huge drawback to not having the proper relays and switches which was I needed a huge control box, that pluged into the front of the car. This control box was needed so I could put in various safty switches to prevent an accidental short while reversing the motor. However no consumer in there right mind wants to use a huge control box like this thus I need to put the relays and switchs back into the system. I have already done tests with a high speed camera and did the math hypothetically the factory intended ampridge level will provide enough foot pounds of torque so that is not a problem. The problem though is the limit switch the headlight motor when applied to the Hood Release System requires the arm on the motor to move 180 degrees before the hood opens. Now obviously the original factory setup does not intend the arm of the motor to move this far. My question though is; is there a way to change where the limit switch stops the motor? If I can solve this minor problem then the rest of my tests show that poping my hood can be as simple turning on and off your headlights. If you can't change the limit switch then please provide me with any ideas you may have. Also due to the tight space I have to work with on my Taurus only the driver side headlight motor will match to the nessecary mounting position.

Thanks in advance for any and all help you can provide,
Steve Wirth

P.S
my E-mail has changed it is now sw.wirth@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by DARK (edited 12-05-2007).]

quote Originally posted by DARK: The problem though is the limit switch the headlight motor when applied to the Hood Release System requires the arm on the motor to move 180 degrees before the hood opens. Now obviously the original factory setup does not intend the arm of the motor to move this far.

actually the arm moves about 320 degrees when the motor is installed in a headlight assembly.

quote Originally posted by DARK: My question though is; is there a way to change where the limit switch stops the motor? If I can solve this minor problem then the rest of my tests show that poping my hood can be as simple turning on and off your headlights. If you can't change the limit switch then please provide me with any ideas you may have.

the limit switch doesn't care where the arm is when it stops the motor.

i've got a thread about how the limit switches work, but i get the feeling you wont read it

Thank you I thought my observasion on how far the motor arm moved was off and you just confirmed it. The reason I couldn't confirm it myself is the only working setup I have to compare to is my working Fiero which I am not about to pull apart on a hunch. As a mater of fact since I didn't fully understand the headlight system I didn't want to start pulling it apart so I bassed my results on what I could see. I would vary much like to see this artical you have about how the limit switch works. The only information I can find on the headlight motor is the online schematic and my service manual nither are very helpful in this area. I know it is hard to beleave in this day and age but I don't understand the internet very much nor do I want to. As amater of fact I perfer to stay in the past with the antique electronics that I restore, hell I still enjoy using Windows 3.1 and typing Basic Programing. So back to case and point, if you could please provide me with a link to this artical I would be very greatful.

Thank you for providing this information,
Steve Wirth

[This message has been edited by DARK (edited 12-05-2007).]

how the limit switch works
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/068642.html

it may not be any help but i suggest you take a look at the process of rebuilding a motor when you have the time.
it may assist with what you are trying to do.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/068488.html

i also have videos of rebuilding the motors and testing the circuit while it's in the car on youtube.
but they probably wouldn't be of any use.

if you still have any questions, i'll try to help as much as i can.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 12-05-2007).]

Thanks a million times over the pictures make it so much easier to understand. I had a completely different idea on how they worked. However now that I have read your posting I just want to run by you what I think, if I understood it right, I need to add to my Power Hood Release System in order to make opening my hood as simple as turning your headlights on. Since my setup and lack of space requires me not to be able to use the bracket that the motor usually sits in I was thinking of possibly putting in a long bolt sticking out of my cars frame in order to stop the motor arm from moving any further thus causing the limit switch to cut the power. Now do you think this would work? If you do think it would work I have another question. While looking at the photos of what a motor should look like inside I discovered I was wrong it wasn't the limit switch that was broken. You see when I got the scrap headlight motor the electrical access cover was taped on due to missing screws and it was obvious someone before me messed with the original internal wiring except I had no photo to tell me what was what so to speak. However once looking at your photos I realize the broken part was the glass tube thing mounted right next to the limit switch thus I removed the broken glass and hard wired both positives to the copper that makes the limit switch. SO MY QUESTION IS THIS: can you provide me with a headlight motor and relays? If not can you provide me with the parts I need to fix mine? If my bypassed made my motor no repairable then can you tell me a website where I can get a rebuilt or new headlight motor? The mounting position requires the driver side headlight motor from 1986.

Thanks for your invaluable advice and help,
Steve Wirth

quote Originally posted by DARK: Thanks a million times over the pictures make it so much easier to understand. I had a completely different idea on how they worked. However now that I have read your posting I just want to run by you what I think, if I understood it right, I need to add to my Power Hood Release System in order to make opening my hood as simple as turning your headlights on. Since my setup and lack of space requires me not to be able to use the bracket that the motor usually sits in I was thinking of possibly putting in a long bolt sticking out of my cars frame in order to stop the motor arm from moving any further thus causing the limit switch to cut the power. Now do you think this would work?

Anything that stops the arm from rotating should make the limit switch cut out in a perfect world. But I’ve seen many instances where unless the armature is spinning at full speed AND the arm comes to a sudden stop, the switch doesn’t open.

So what ever you are going to use to stop the arm cannot have any give to it.

quote Originally posted by DARK: If you do think it would work I have another question. While looking at the photos of what a motor should look like inside I discovered I was wrong it wasn't the limit switch that was broken. You see when I got the scrap headlight motor the electrical access cover was taped on due to missing screws and it was obvious someone before me messed with the original internal wiring except I had no photo to tell me what was what so to speak. However once looking at your photos I realize the broken part was the glass tube thing mounted right next to the limit switch thus I removed the broken glass and hard wired both positives to the copper that makes the limit switch.

I’m not sure which “positives” you’re talking about. None of the wires going to the motor are positive all the time.
The glass tube is a circuit breaker. One wire goes in, and one wire comes out. If you simply spliced these to wires together, then the motor will still work like normal, minus the safety feature of the circuit breaker. But you could put a fuse in place and be ok.

Which makes me bring up… You were talking about the motor drawing a lot of amps. It uses less than 3 amps.

quote Originally posted by DARK: SO MY QUESTION IS THIS: can you provide me with a headlight motor and relays?

yes
75 for a motor plus shipping with a 1 year warranty
25 for the isolation relay
15 for the motor relay

quote Originally posted by DARK: If not can you provide me with the parts I need to fix mine?

35 for a used good limit switch

quote Originally posted by DARK: If my bypassed made my motor no repairable then can you tell me a website where I can get a rebuilt or new headlight motor? The mounting position requires the driver side headlight motor from 1986.

the fiero store also sells rebuilt motors
you can get a drivers side motor from them for 191.95 plus shipping.
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how far does the arm have to move?
i may have a much simpler solution.

The arm has to move a 180 degrees I am unsure of the exact inches but it just dawned on me that I am not sure weather my setup has the motor moving forward or in reverse when compared to the factory setup. Maybe you could tell me in my Power Hood Release setup the arm moves towards the top of the motor is that forward or reverse? If it is reverse then will setup still work? Boy when I first designed this system a year and a half ago I didn't even think the nut ball idea would work period but it has turned out to be an extremely reliable system. I made my hypotheses based on the 20-25 amps (I know the exact number but am not looking at the owners manual right now) that is stated in the fuse box layout for the headlights on my Fiero. During the design and development stage I used a high-speed camera, fish scale, and 9 increments each .75 inches apart drawn on the motor itself to figure how much weight the motor could move. My results show using just a 3 amp power source the motor can move 2.25 ft per every 40 seconds. However I lost my notes when it came to the tests with the fish scale but I do know that the bare minimum to open the hood requires 1.22 pounds of pulling force. Right now through my control box I can go no lower than a 10 amp fuse before it blows. Can the relays handle 10 amps? If you have a simpler idea like you suggested I am all for it!! Before I say for sure as to weather I am getting those parts or not I'll first have to run the tests the fish scale again to be sure that 3 amps will cut it then I'll get back to you. One other thing can you supply me with the intended wiring harness as far as the proper plug ends coming from the motor and the proper plugs going to each relay basically everything in the immediate area of the motor?

Thanks a million times over for your ongoing help,
Steve Wirth

[This message has been edited by DARK (edited 12-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by DARK: The arm has to move a 180 degrees I am unsure of the exact inches but it just dawned on me that I am not sure weather my setup has the motor moving forward or in reverse when compared to the factory setup. Maybe you could tell me in my Power Hood Release setup the arm moves towards the top of the motor is that forward or reverse? If it is reverse then will setup still work?

Well i dont know which way you consider forward or reverse. The arm moves towards the top of the motor if it's going CW or CCW.
It can be made to turn the other direction if it's backwards for your needs, but i dont want to get in to that unless we have to.

quote Originally posted by DARK: Boy when I first designed this system a year and a half ago I didn't even think the nut ball idea would work period but it has turned out to be an extremely reliable system. I made my hypotheses based on the 20-25 amps (I know the exact number but am not looking at the owners manual right now) that is stated in the fuse box layout for the headlights on my Fiero. During the design and development stage I used a high-speed camera, fish scale, and 9 increments each .75 inches apart drawn on the motor itself to figure how much weight the motor could move. My results show using just a 3 amp power source the motor can move 2.25 ft per every 40 seconds. However I lost my notes when it came to the tests with the fish scale but I do know that the bare minimum to open the hood requires 1.22 pounds of pulling force. Right now through my control box I can go no lower than a 10 amp fuse before it blows. Can the relays handle 10 amps?

You can still power the motor through a 20~25 amp fuse, i just pointed out that the motor should only need 3 amps or less when installed in a headlight bucked.
I'm surprised that the limit switch in the motor isn't reaching it's breakover point. And i'll bet if you still had the circuit breaker in there that it would be tripping.

the contacts of the relays get pitted and burned pretty bad just from the 3 amps the motors normally use.
so 20 amps would really be pushing them to their limits.
I'm really scratching my head as to why the limit switch isn't opening at such a high mechanical load.

are you sure you have the motor wired so that when the limit switch clicks open that it kills the power?

quote Originally posted by DARK: If you have a simpler idea like you suggested I am all for it!!

i'm thinking...

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 12-07-2007).]

You are probably right I would overload the relays. However I like your idea about the switch but I have a few questions. Everthing I know about electrical except for a basic schematic reading class is self taught so I don't know all the technical terms in regaurds to electrical. So this is my question: can you give tell me an aftermaket self centering DPDT switch? All I have ever used in the rewiring of my car are basic toggle switches on/off/on switches. I don't mind using a power window (because I do understand the wiring layout you gave me) if you might be able to tell me how I could mount it in my Taurus.

Thanks,
Steve Wirth

it's a 3 way switch on/off/on that you have to hold in the on positions. if you let go of the switch it pulls itself back to the off position.

Thanks a lot now I know exactly what type of switch you are talking about. I had a brainstorm after my last response that I want to run by you to see if it will work. I have heard of relays that allow a 30 amp system to be run by a 10 amp switch (I am guessing at the amperage it is just an example). Could you reverse the relay and have a high amp supply run a low amp motor while still having the same results from the motor? Another idea I had was I have heard of factorys leaving the hot wire untouched but having the negative switched would this work? If neither of these ideas work I just use your suggestion. Speaking of your suggestion I have one other question about it. What sets the center position? Is the center position whatever position the motor is in when you wire the switch?

Thanks for having the patience to simplify things for me,
Steve Wirth

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DARK:

This question is about a Fiero headlight motor but my above average I.Q has found a slightly different use for the motor thus I am posting my question here and not in the forum.[QUOTE]

I call that creativity.

Why not just use a couple of gas struts and a popper solenoid like the Fiero trunk has? My trunk opens on its own when I hit the release, you would just need to calculate the correct struts for use on your hood. The springs in my trunk open too rapidly, but using a gas strut should relieve that issue.

As an example, the rear deck on my Firebird will open on its own after just lifting it slightly upward, and it weighs quite a bit more than a hood.

I would expect the solenoid and struts to be much easier to work with than the headlight motors, plus readily available. And you'd only have to run one wire from a momentary toggle to the solenoid.

Or is part of your goal also to have the hood close automatically?


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[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 12-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by DARK: I have heard of relays that allow a 30 amp system to be run by a 10 amp switch (I am guessing at the amperage it is just an example).

that's usually what relays do, they are nothing more than a big[/b] that is opperated by a [i]little switch.

quote Originally posted by DARK: Could you reverse the relay and have a high amp supply run a low amp motor while still having the same results from the motor?

I'm not really sure what you are asking.
a relay is just a high amp switch that is controled by a small amp switch
think of a Ford starter solenoid, it's a big freakin relay that can handle hundreds of amps. and it's controled by the ignition switch in the steering column.
if your relay is rated for the amps then having the relay in between the motor and the power source wont be any problem.
but again if that motor is drawing more than 3 amps something inside of it is not working correctly.
since i dont know what you were trying to ask i'm not sure if any of that babbling helps.

quote Originally posted by DARK: Another idea I had was I have heard of factorys leaving the hot wire untouched but having the negative switched would this work?

no, you have to be able to change between the blue and green wires if you want the motor to be able to run in both directions.

quote Originally posted by DARK: Speaking of your suggestion I have one other question about it. What sets the center position? Is the center position whatever position the motor is in when you wire the switch?

i was talking about the center(off) position of the toggle switch.
the motor doesn't care where it's at when you wire it up. it will try to turn as long as you are holding the switch in either of the ON positions.

I toyed around with the idea of using a small solenoid and it is not that it won't work it is that I couldn't put in a manual override in the event the solenoid broke. I was playing around with the idea of using a pin switch like they use in alarm systems to tell if the hood is open. My thinking was to run either the motors positive or negative through the pin switch then once the hood opened the circuit would break thus killing the power. The problem though is how to back the motor up and have it stop at the right spot. Do you have any ideas for this? If so please let me know I would be most grateful.

Thanks for all your input,
Steve Wirth

quote Originally posted by DARK: I toyed around with the idea of using a small solenoid and it is not that it won't work it is that I couldn't put in a manual override in the event the solenoid broke.

Just leave the factory release cable connected, if the solenoid fails just pull the stock hood release handle. Leaving the cable there shouldn't interfere with the operation. If you had to you could modify the bracket so the cable slides in the release mechanism rather than resist when the solenoid is used.

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the only way you're going to get the motor to stop automatically is to use the relays and let the limit switch do it's own thing.
but from the things you've said, i dont believe the limit switch is working.
or what i really think is that you have the blue and grey wires crossed.
so yes the limit switch is opening up on one side like it's supposed to, but you're supplying power to the other side's contact.
that would also explain how the motor is using so many amps. it wants to shut itself off, but cant.

The limit switch is not broken the gears mentioned in your step by step display are because before I messed with the motor I tested it as is and it would run but never shut off. Back during the design stage I had the theoretical idea of using the pin switch like I said but when backing up I thought of using a shock sensor to cut the power. Let me explain further I would run the reverse negative through an old shock sensor off of an alarm system and mount the sensor so the arm of the motor would hit it at the same spot I wanted it to stop. The problem though is the shock sensor I have only outputs a 12 volt negative when it is bumped so I have to find a way to have it constantly output a negative and stop the negative when bumped not the other way around.

Thanks for your help,
Steve Wirth

Why not just put a pin switch in that location, so when the motor rotates enough to hit the switch it automatically kills the power in that direction? Just adjust the switch so it breaks contact when the motor has rotated back to the position you desire.

Activating the motor again would release the switch, allowing you to run it the other direction whenever you choose.

I am curious, why use such a relatively complicated mechanism to perform such a simple task?

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 12-07-2007).]

I used this complex method because the headlight motor was best suited for my original manual override idea. The original manual override was to use a recoil pull start from a lawn mower and attach it to the top of the headlight mower. Later through testing I found this idea was to complex therefore I dropped it from the design. I knew from the start that the solenoid wouldn't work due to the lack of space in the car I was working with.

Thanks for the help,
Steve Wirth