So, I'm walking out of work, and I see a guy sitting in a Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo. I know the guy getting into the passengers seat of the car, and I jokingly ask the driver if he would want to sell his car. He says that he had been thinking about it.

I have no idea what the mileage is on it or what he would want for it, but I would buy it.

One thing popped into my head though... Would it be a car to drive? Or should I swap over everything into my Fiero?

I know that these are rare cars, and very nice. But, how many chances would you have to transplant a WORKING turbo engine and supporting parts into a Fiero. I mean, the block is an aluminum block, right? And it was made by McLaren. So that would be a nice swap.

Any idea on what should happen to a nice car like that? I'm stuck I keep seeing a McLaren powered Fiero!

------------------

The swap would be most likely harder than a regular motor swap, and then you destroy a car that will have more value than the fiero with a turbo would.

I would just do a TDC 3.4 swap, would be faster, and would basicly fall into the fiero while the turbo setup I am sure will not be easy.

i think toddster has one of these forsale in california, the turbo 3.1L motors are just a modified stock 3.1L with a t25 turbo added, its iron block with alloy heads, approx 210HP and 220ft/lbs or somewhere there abouts.

matthew

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The swap would be most likely harder than a regular motor swap, and then you destroy a car that will have more value than the fiero with a turbo would. I would just do a TDC 3.4 swap, would be faster, and would basicly fall into the fiero while the turbo setup I am sure will not be easy.

@ darkhorizon: That is one of the things that I was thinking of. Give it a couple years, and it will be worth alot.

I was personally thinking of going with a turbo 3.4 PR using a turbo out of a Mk3 Toyota Supra. Very upgradeable. I thought it would be fun though. Something interesting.

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: i think toddster has one of these forsale in california, the turbo 3.1L motors are just a modified stock 3.1L with a t25 turbo added, its iron block with alloy heads, approx 210HP and 220ft/lbs or somewhere there abouts. matthew

@ m0sh_man: I basically found out about Toddsters GP from when he was rennovating his house. I remember that he had a pic where one was tucked away in the back, behind all his Fieros.

Is this block the same as one out of a 1991(?) Camaro/Firebird 3.1? Or is it a whole 'nother beast? As for the metal, I knew something on this motor was made of alloy. I just couldnt remember what.

i have a 90 tgp and the block is different. the engines were built by Mcclaren. do a google search on turbo grand prix and you will find alot of info. one site has listings of every part that is special for the tgp. another difference is the transaxle, it has a few special parts to improve durability as these motors originally made a bit more power but were detuned to make the trans live.

There is one of those for sale here in Maine, it's not rusted up or anything it just needs some love. The guy wants $1500 for it. The paint is peeling and it needs a couple of minor things, but it does run and drive. If anyone is interested I can send you their phone number.

quote Originally posted by jerry455: i have a 90 tgp and the block is different. the engines were built by Mcclaren. do a google search on turbo grand prix and you will find alot of info. one site has listings of every part that is special for the tgp. another difference is the transaxle, it has a few special parts to improve durability as these motors originally made a bit more power but were detuned to make the trans live.

its rumored that the block is made with slightly higher nickle content, otherwise the block itself is made from the exact same cast as the 1990 beretta or cavalier with a 3.1L v6, it has slightly different pistons due to the compression being lower, and its got the phase II 60* heads from GM, the first production run of alloy heads basically, it wasnt till 94 or 95 they switched to the 3100's with the second generation alloy heads.

there is nothing special about the turbo motor in a GP, its just a 3.1L motor with a turbo added and lower compression pistons to accomodate the boost, like stated its possible the blocks have higher nickel content, but i think its just a rumor, even so it would only make it 1-2% more nickel content

there are some 2 door Turbo GP's and the real rare ones are the 4 door turbo STE's

matthew

If I bought one of those and I was going to keep it for a driver, I would definitely swap out the brake system.

I've had a few different flavors of car with the Teves ABS brake system (Olds Touring sedan by ASC/McLaren and some AWD Pontiac 6000s) and I can tell you that any car with that brake system is going to be nothing but a pain in your arss.

Ask anybody who's had a car with the Teves ABS from the late 80s, Cadillac Allante/Seville, Reattas, AWD 6000s, TGPs etc. Some of the parts can't be had anymore and the ones that can cost tons.

Basically, they have shitty pedal feel and 100s of failure modes that are tough to troubleshoot. They can be identified by their lack of a vacuum booster and the presence of a little round cylinder that stores pressure from the electrohydraulic booster.

Kurt

Someone here bought the motor and harness out of a wrecked one to swap. Based on how the turbo sits, you can't use the manual transaxle (i think, I know there were some problems with the swap and I don't think he ever finished it) it was in the technical discussion.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: If I bought one of those and I was going to keep it for a driver, I would definitely swap out the brake system. I've had a few different flavors of car with the Teves ABS brake system (Olds Touring sedan by ASC/McLaren and some AWD Pontiac 6000s) and I can tell you that any car with that brake system is going to be nothing but a pain in your arss. Ask anybody who's had a car with the Teves ABS from the late 80s, Cadillac Allante/Seville, Reattas, AWD 6000s, TGPs etc. Some of the parts can't be had anymore and the ones that can cost tons. Basically, they have shitty pedal feel and 100s of failure modes that are tough to troubleshoot. They can be identified by their lack of a vacuum booster and the presence of a little round cylinder that stores pressure from the electrohydraulic booster. Kurt

ill complete agree here, i had a 1991 grand prix GTP 3.4L 5 speed, that was the last year for the GM PMIII ABS system, i think it was a 1988-1991 option or 1989-1991 option only, like stated only certain vehicles had that brake system, mine never worked right, so i found a 1991 lumina parts car, took the metal brake lines from the lumina, (they were different) and installed them on the grand prix, next i had to cut the brake booster mount off the lumina (took forever) the bolt holes for its booster lined up with the bolts from the PMIII brake system, so i bolted the booster mount in, the lumina's booster turns and locks into place, its really odd how it works. Once that was bolted in i bolted the lumina's booster and master cylinder in place and ran a vaccum line to it, then i had to make a custom length rod to go from the brake pedal to the booster, after that the car had great NON ABS brakes.

doug kinny at fierowarehouse.com now has my GTP and i honestly dont think he's ever driven it, but the brakes do work good now

matthew

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: ill complete agree here, i had a 1991 grand prix GTP 3.4L 5 speed, that was the last year for the GM PMIII ABS system, i think it was a 1988-1991 option or 1989-1991 option only, like stated only certain vehicles had that brake system, mine never worked right, so i found a 1991 lumina parts car, took the metal brake lines from the lumina, (they were different) and installed them on the grand prix, next i had to cut the brake booster mount off the lumina (took forever) the bolt holes for its booster lined up with the bolts from the PMIII brake system, so i bolted the booster mount in, the lumina's booster turns and locks into place, its really odd how it works. Once that was bolted in i bolted the lumina's booster and master cylinder in place and ran a vaccum line to it, then i had to make a custom length rod to go from the brake pedal to the booster, after that the car had great NON ABS brakes. doug kinny at fierowarehouse.com now has my GTP and i honestly dont think he's ever driven it, but the brakes do work good now matthew

That's hilarious. I had a 1989 GP 5 speed 2.8 car that I swapped a 3400 into, I looked at just swapping my 5 speed stuff into a turbo car, but the brakes were more work to fix than swapping motors on every McLaren I looked at.

I would agree with these guys, while the car is a blast to drive ( especially with a boost controller ) the brakes SUCK !! The PM-3 is the worlds worst pile of crap. Impossible to find parts for and cost a fortune. The PM-3 is $1700 rebuilt from the source they came from. And a local brake warehouse supplier wants $2900 !!!! for one. My car sat around for 9 months waiting to get parted out because of that thing. Until I became the worlds luckiest guy at a U-pull yard and got one out of a car that looked new for $24

As for value, they are just like a Fiero. Not really worth anything unless it has really low miles & mint. So drive it !!! unless the car get to its end of days, then swap it into a Fiero with is much easier that you think.

Or you can buy my spare 3.1 Turbo engine that doesnt have any miles on it for $700

------------------

MINNESOTA MAFIA Real men get blown
87 GT MP-112 powered, 3800 Supercharged on 19's____88 GT T-top 1 of very few, 119.4 miles
87 GT custom______90 Grand prix STE Turbo_____98 ZX750R
IF YOU AIN'T BREAKING STUFF..................IT AIN'T MODDED ENOUGH
Best Fiero mounts available https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/062388.html

Wow. So, it sounds like it is a good car, just not one that will pay itself back in any means. The brakes are more than what the guy will probably want for the car. And all that for brakes that arent even that good, from what it sounds like.

Hmm... Brake swap anybody?

------------------

quote Originally posted by jerry455: i have a 90 tgp and the block is different. the engines were built by Mcclaren. do a google search on turbo grand prix and you will find alot of info. one site has listings of every part that is special for the tgp. another difference is the transaxle, it has a few special parts to improve durability as these motors originally made a bit more power but were detuned to make the trans live.

That's right. I have a 90 GTP and the block, crank, rods are all more durable than the stock 3.1 due to higher nickel content in the steel. All are balanced too (I believe). Every part on the GTP 3.1 has it's own part number because it is tougher than the stock 3.1

It's a great motor.

And yes, mine is going up for sale as soon as I do some detailing and tuning up.

Second happiest day of my life was the day someone took that POC '89 TGP away. It was a lot of fun to drive when it was running, but the only thing the car did really well was break. Bought it new with 11K miles (it was a demonstrator), sold 14 years later with 34K miles and just between the cost of the car and the maintenance spent ~$2.00/mile driven. Two ABS rebuilds (and that POS accumulator just doesn't last more than two years and is more of a PITA to replace than anything, anything at all, on a Fiero), replaced the front brake pads twice and the front rotors once (at 16K miles the pads had worn so bad, so fast, that the rotors were ruined in less than 200 miles before I could get new pads after the screechers started) two computer replacements (first time driving down 101 at 1AM at 70MPH when the computer's ground failed), 3 alternators, 3 ignition modules, 7 coils and, best of all, two exhaust cross over pipes (I forget who corrects the flawed design for WAY less than the cost of a "genuine" GM replacement that WILL fail in less than ~3 years or ~10K miles).

But the HUD was way cool. I'm surprised that hasn't become a standard thing. There is just no way to accidently or unknowingly run out of gas or speed with that thing.

[This message has been edited by Fierari (edited 11-06-2007).]