Well over the winter I would like to start an engine swap and can't really decide what one to do. I want lots of power and pickup with alright gas mileage. I know the 3800SC is a real common swap now and makes plenty of power in stock form and good aftermarket. The ecotec has good aftermarket and would get good gas mileage. Now heres the thing, I have two 2.2 ecotecs here but just the motors, I would have to find a tranny for one and the wiring/computer. I can get a low mileage 3800SC local with everything for under $2000 Canadian. My car is an 88GT with a 3.1 block right now. Would the ecotec be able to suck you back in the seat with some mods? What do you guys think I should do?

3800sc. There is a reason everyone is doing it. I've loved every minute of mine. You just wouldn't get enough out of the Ecotec even if you built it up and put a turbo on it.

Ecotecs are good little motors. While it is true that many many people have done successful 3800sc swaps on here and that you can greatly benefit from their collective experience, there are also a handful of intrepid souls like wftb and some others who not only have done ectoec swaps successfully, they have made good power with them and good economy. An ecotec is a much lighter weight engine than a 3800 sc I think. Just do some searches for wftb's work, it's fantastic, (plus he's canadian, too, eh? )

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If you can't be good, be good at it.

You're going to have to a lot of work modifying the Ecotec to get it to the point of a stock Series III 3800 SC. With the 3800 I'm going to guess you could get 25-30 MPG if you keep your foot out of it.

The swap of the future.

3.6 V6 24 Valve Direct Injection...304 HP and no Turbo or SC needed.

This is only the start of many new DI engens.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: The swap of the future. 3.6 V6 24 Valve Direct Injection...304 HP and no Turbo or SC needed. This is only the start of many new DI engens.

but they'd be much more fun with them

on the freeway I've gotten 400-410 to a tank with the 3800 that was going 75 majority of the time.

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3800 SC/IC Formula whines more than your girl...
98 GTP - N* TB, 3.4, 1.95 rockers, SS Headers, Exhaust, GXP Susp.

Wow, around 400 to a tank with a 3800, I get around 200 with my 3.1... I think you guys have me leaning towards the 3800SC.

I'd be curious to know what the weight balance would be with the ecotec. If you could get it pretty darn close to 50/50, build it up to about 300hp, which wouldn't take too much, I think you'd have a killer combo.

i love my ecotec and even stock it is a lot faster than the 2.8 .i put a do it myself turbo on it (16g) bolted to the stock manifold and now it really flies .14.1 @98.6 mph .with some practice and playing with shift points i will get it into the 13's as is .but i also have some more goodies to put on to run higher boost .i have spent more on the turbo set than i did on the initial swap .
but the best part is the weight savings and handling improvement .
that being said , the 3800sc swap is easier to do and will give instant gratification but you need to use the auto it comes with to have it work its best .the swap is well documented and harnesses are readily available (fieroflyer) .
would i do a 3800 ?no .i just dont like the idea of more weight in the back , the fiero is too tail heavy to begin with .plus i like doing things that havent been done before .

I believe the 3800sc is what 240-250hp stock? IMO thats weak, v6 with a supercharger.
The LSJ ecotec (2.0sc) is underrated at 205hp, GM has a stage 2 I believe that bumps it up to 240hp.
Now the normal 2.2 L61 can have a supercharger bolt-on without any problem. This 140hp engine can go up to
280hp without any internal modifications.

Next, with my swap I drove 213 miles gas station to gas station, mostly highway at about 65mph. I did it on 4.5-4.7 gallons of gas. Do the math on that one. Mine is running about 170hp, I think. I just realized the MT5 (isuzi) is geared higher than I thought and ive only been shifting it around 5500k while its much happer in the 6k region. Id assume it is a mid 14 second car once I get it back to the track.

Computer stuff. Some will disagree but Standalone is awesome to go with. Not only can u use with other engines but you never need to send it to get reprogrammed. You do everything yourself and never have to worry about tracking sensor issues as u can see what the sensors are seeing. You tune: fuel curves,timing,boost control, anything u need.

Megasquirt + Ecotec, pure awesomeness.

I might dyno 210-220 to the wheels in my auto 3800, but I can easily keep up with my friends manual swap that ran 12.6. The rated HP on a 3800 is basicly pointless to compare with anything else unless what your comparing it to makes a almost perfectly flat power curve.

The torque is huge on these motors, easily 260Wtrq on a mostly stock motor, and the dyno curve is DEAD FLAT from 3k-5500 rpms. You pretty much make all your power down low, upper rpms make no more peak power like any other motor would. Even the supercharged ecotec's cant make a power curve that will keep up with a 3800.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I might dyno 210-220 to the wheels in my auto 3800, but I can easily keep up with my friends manual swap that ran 12.6. The rated HP on a 3800 is basicly pointless to compare with anything else unless what your comparing it to makes a almost perfectly flat power curve. The torque is huge on these motors, easily 260Wtrq on a mostly stock motor, and the dyno curve is DEAD FLAT from 3k-5500 rpms. You pretty much make all your power down low, upper rpms make no more peak power like any other motor would. Even the supercharged ecotec's cant make a power curve that will keep up with a 3800.

This is an excellent point. It's not how much horsepower and torque that you make, it where you make it on the curve that counts. Not to take anything away from the high tech Ecotec but I believe that engine makes most of it's power at the top end. Probably a great choice for use with a stick. and for road racing .

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Like people said: DI is the future. I can't wait until the DI Ecotec from the Solstice comes out in the HHR-S. That's a front wheel drive car. If everything from the Cobalt SS get's copied to the HHR, the engine+tranny might just bolt in. That would be 260hp stock out of a 4-banger. Can you imagine the possibilities?

I'm also curious if the DI Ecotec V6's from Australia ever make it over the pond. That sounds like an exiting combination as well.

Viva gas mileage + performance!!!

-Max

The ecotec is still better :P lemme just think of some really good comeback lol.

Have you every checked out the DI? Ive heard its gonna be a pain as the fuel PSI is really high

my ecotec makes lots of power all the way through the power band .i drop the clutch at about 2000 rpm and its squawks the tires a bit and away we go .it is not a peaky motor at all .i dont know where people get the idea that it is a high rpm power only motor .it only redlines at 6500.the hardest thing to do to get a decent time out of my car is to avoid the rev limiter in first gear .it comes up really quick .
older b motor hondas were pretty peaky motors but that mostly is because of the smaller displacement (1600 to 1800 cc if i remember right) .2.2 litres is fairly large for a 4 cylinder motor ,giving that extra lowdown grunt .
think of it this way :if the ecotec even matches the 3800 sc output ,it is the more efficient engine because it is doing it with 1600 fewer cc's .or 1800 less in the case of the sc ecotec .
i really want to take my car to a dyno to find out what it is producing but i have yet to find one in my area .is there one in London ontario ?

ECOTEC

1.- Your will be using the modern transmission from the donor car.
2.- Your weight distribution will be much better.
3.- Aluminum vs Cast Iron.
4.- Very easy to adapt to the Fiero vs the 3800 (according to Rodger Thelin).

One thing i'm not sure is why this is the last year GM is making the Super Charged version? May be due to the Turbo version?

Here is the link to Rodger Thelin... He's very knowledgeable & sell the conversion kits for the Ecotec.
http://www.noidearecords.com/thelinsells/

The new 3.6-litre VVT DI is based on the same GM Powertrain-designed 60-degree DOHC V6 that’s manufactured at Port Melbourne for the likes of Saab, Alfa Romeo and Holden’s own Commodore model family, in which it also displaces 3.6 litres and is known internally as High-Feature V6 (HFV6), in export terms as Global V6 and locally as Alloytec V6.

According to GM: "It is the latest member of a growing family of GM Powertrain V6 engines developed for applications around the world, drawing on the best practices and creative expertise of GM technical centers in Australia, Germany, North America and Sweden."

Like the V6 employed by VZ Commodores since August 2004, the VVT DI V6 features an aluminium engine block and cylinder-heads, forged steel crankshaft, dual overhead camshafts with four valves per cylinder, coil-on-plug ignition and electronic throttle control.

However, apart from the same "four-cam" (inlet and exhaust) continuously variable valve phasing as found on the 190kW 'Alloyec 190" V6 that powers premium Commodore variants, the direct-injection version adds a high-pressure engine-driven fuel pump, more advanced heat and pressure resistant multi-outlet fuel-injectors, a stainless steel variable-pressure fuel rail, more advanced engine control module and higher 11.3:1 compression (up from 10.2:1).

GM claims the result is a 15 per cent increase in peak power, an eight per cent improvement in maximum torque and up to three per cent better brake-specific fuel consumption – as well as 25 per cent lower cold-start hydrocarbon emissions.

Directly injected fuel has a cooling effect inside the combustion chamber and enables a higher compression ratio - both of which improve performance. Fuel consumption also reduces because less fuel is required to produce the equivalent power of a conventional port-injection combustion system

source: http://www1.autotrader.com....2EF6CA25717800052B58


Aussies talking holden swaps
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/066220.html

Austrailian - Great info! Wow, cool stuff coming out!

quote Originally posted by FierociousGT: One thing i'm not sure is why this is the last year GM is making the Super Charged version? May be due to the Turbo version?

Might just be a rumor, but I've heard that it doesn't meet future emissions regulations. Also my guess is that GM is trying to get out of the red's by streamlining their product line. -As in: Sell less different products to increase economies of scale and just badge egineer products to give customers the illusion of being completely different cars. That leads me to believe that the turbo ecotec engine will be in many more cars. (maybe with a detuned ECU) (The MZR Mazdaspeed 6 engine is in 4 different cars in different states of tune 274 hp in the Mazdaspeed6 246 hp in the Mazda Cx7, 263 hp in the Mazdaspeed 3, and unknown (by me) in the Cx9 (I quit following that engine after I got into Fieros, as many people told me on it probably won't swap into a Fiero )

quote Originally posted by FierociousGT: Here is the link to Rodger Thelin... He's very knowledgeable & sell the conversion kits for the Ecotec. http://www.noidearecords.com/thelinsells/

Does anybody make swap kits for the LSJ yet, or the Turbocharged DI ecotec? Or do we have to wait for the Turbocharged ecotec in the HHR-SS.

L67, the torque curve is impressive and there is so much more in the top end if you want to spend the money.

A 5 speed swap is much more impressive, when driving, than a slush box.

quote Originally posted by Fiero Owner: Wow, around 400 to a tank with a 3800, I get around 200 with my 3.1... I think you guys have me leaning towards the 3800SC.

yeah I got 350 a tank with my 2.8, 400 with my 3.4. I took a trip down to indiana to have darth check my fiero out.. 200 miles half a tank. For a while it went down along with peformance damn fuel evap canister.

I know my GTP is getting 27 mpg (modded pretty good low to mid 13's 1/4) and thats in a 3400 lb car.

I'm hooked on on the 3800 been around, but the motor proves itself and I'm soooo hooked on forced inductioned cars now

[This message has been edited by LoW_KeY (edited 09-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by James Bondo: L67, the torque curve is impressive and there is so much more in the top end if you want to spend the money. A 5 speed swap is much more impressive, when driving, than a slush box.

Slushbox's of old really give a bad name to the transmissions GM has been pumping out after 97. The shifting, gear ratios, and strength of these later transmissions bring a whole to meaning to the world driveability, and when you drop the hammer, these things turn into pavement eating monsters, assuming they are properly setup for it.

I have dinked around with my shift settings, offering a very "stick like" behavior out of my automatic, things like removing the 2k rpm shift points when at 0-15% throttle really offered alot of versatility when cruising around the streets, and greatly eliminated downshifting around corners.

the only problem I have found with my auto, is the weight and HUGE drivetrain HP loss. My friends identical manual swap is only slightly faster than me in the quarter mile, and thats only because he has alot more power going to the wheels than i do. But if I had the same WHP as he did, I do not doubt that the auto would be SIGNIFICANTLY faster, and I think it has been proven with lildevil's 12.3 run, and I dont think he was making more than 290WHP, which is about what I estimate my friends manual swap setup at.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: and I think lowkey is bluffing a bit on his gas mileage... .

seriously are you retarded.. 11.9 is what I can fit in mine do the math.. or is that a little to complex for ya? Why the hell would I have to lie about my gas mileage I'm sorry the other 3 gallons of your tank is full of **** .

It's called tuning your car, I put quite a bit of time into my 2.8 and 3.4 to get them to run the way they did.. done the same with my 3800. I've pulled my plug numerous times to check coloring and adjusted the fuel pressure as needed. I've had ryan adjust my chip to my liking when I've been down in Indiana. Grand Prix is about 700-800 lbs give or take over a fiero, minus that 800 you're going to get better gas mileage.

OH SNAP! I forgot your the 3800 expert I must be full of **** ... I forgot why I even bothered posting on this forum anymore

[This message has been edited by LoW_KeY (edited 09-11-2007).]

I never thought you could get more than 10 gallons in a 88/87 tank, and even yet its a bit higher than what most people average.

400/12 = 33MPG, so that is just about dead on... I assumed a 9 gallon tank remember?

The 87/88 gas tanks im pretty sure are 11.7 gallons. But anyways, i have an 02 GTP as my daily driver and i cant wait to get one of these motors in my Fiero. I can average 29mpg on the highway at 78mph with the AC on full blast and 4 people in the car....and it weighs around 3500lbs. I can only assume the Fiero being 800lbs or so less could get better mileage with this motor. And as for power, i absolutely love the low end torque of this monster. My GTP in completely stock and it should run around a mid 14 1/4. I assume this from research on these cars aswell as time slips from cars ive raced. I beat a brand new S2000 that ran a 14.3 with a good driver, when i raced her she couldn't launch worth **** and couldnt pull on me. I lost by 1-2 car lengths to my buddy's camaro that runs a 13.92, we've raced about a dozen times.. Im just partial to alot of low end torque and thats why i'd pick the 3800SC over the ecotec

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The ecotec gets its HP at 6200 rpm., the 3800 SC makes its hp at 5400 rpm. I don't know about any one else, I rarely drove my 3800 SC (in a Buick Regal) at 5000 rpm, nor do I drive my 2.4 ecotec (HHR) at 6000 rpm where 70 mph ~ 2500 rpm.

The 3800 SC gets lots of torque at much lower rpm than a ecotec.

As for any swap, do whatever you want. All it takes is time, money and skill.

chevrolet hhr 3277lbs 172hp and 162 lb torque @5000rpm .does seem to to develop torque at a relatively high rpm compared to the pt cruiser that develops the same torque at 4000 rpm .but pushing all that weight around makes the 2.4 ecotec seem like a real dog .0 - 60 in a whopping 9.0 seconds and the 1/4 in 16.6 @ 82.8 mph .my point is that you cant compare how that engine behaves in an hhr to how it behaves in a lighter fiero .i am very happy with the overall performance and i liked the performance even without the turbo .i dont knock the 3800 it is a proven performer and reliable .i just couldnt accept a cast iron pushrod motor no matter how much power they put out .as for the new family of all aluminum v6's they look pretty impressive .getting all that power to the pavement in a daily driver would take some doing .somebody should make a traction control kit .